IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-25
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11:34:04 <Wolf01> I think "VR" is a bit too misused
11:35:15 <Wolf01> You might be able to see a whole movie one day
11:37:16 <Wolf01> the worse part is that mods I use may not work :(
11:37:23 <Wolf01> "new game here I come"
11:38:06 <V453000> achievements don't work with mods anyway
11:38:27 <V453000> so you might just want to make a vanilla game, get achievements, and use mods next time when they update :)
11:38:35 <Wolf01> I'm not interested in achievements
11:39:53 <Wolf01> look at minecraft, every time I play I must redo all the achievements because they are world based... and I need to make a new world every now and then to test the new features
11:40:06 <Wolf01> so I don't even bother to get the achievements
11:40:27 <V453000> I don't think it is world based in factorio
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13:44:40 <argoneus> good moning train friends
13:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just copy over the achievement file?
13:51:43 <Wolf01> maybe, but I don't give a fuck, it's just annoying when the achievement popups
13:52:07 <Wolf01> it ruins the atmosphere, lol
14:06:14 <V453000> you haven't even seen the epic achievement animation yet :P
14:08:58 <peter1138> That minecrift teleport thing seems crap.
14:09:52 <peter1138> i mean teleporting to move about because of motion sickness
14:26:40 <Wolf01> wtf is that absurd thing?
14:27:36 <V453000> that looks considerably retarded
14:28:34 <V453000> I don't really like VR in general but this is totally dumb :D
14:29:11 <peter1138> It's there because moving with a controllers makes some people sick.
14:29:21 <peter1138> But it breaks the gameplay massively.
14:29:51 <peter1138> I want some VR stuff but I'm into simulators where you are just sitting, so motion shouldn't be a problem
14:30:35 <V453000> hehe I see your point
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14:31:12 <Wolf01> I played MC with the oculus-dk1 and it already was astounding, then the new ones seem to have "fixed" almost all the motion sickness problems (few lag and more fps)
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14:31:45 <peter1138> yeah but they switched to these fresnel lenses at the last minute which have artifcats
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14:33:50 <V453000> it's probably good for porn :P
14:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> they promised us VR for like 20 years now, i still don't believe it's actually coming :p
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14:47:06 <peter1138> *** Error in `/usr/bin/perl': free(): invalid pointer: 0x0972126c ***
14:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what did you expect?
15:04:28 <Samu> "use the Dice.png" - i don't have the tools
15:04:55 <Samu> i don't really understand either what to do exactly
15:05:54 <Samu> "get rid of unused string" - if I do it, the lang files complain that it's too old
15:08:25 <Samu> "find a way to distinguish old from new parameters" - this is... way too complex from my understanding, it is going to affect savegames too
15:08:50 <Samu> "use random ai" is also related to that
15:15:18 <Samu> what do you think it's the easiest thing to do?
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17:16:02 <Wormnest> I think I found an AI savegame bug
17:16:23 <Wormnest> presuming you have both WormAI versions 4 and 5 available open console and startai wormai.4
17:16:48 <Wormnest> run it for a while then save and reload the savegame
17:17:20 <Wormnest> console shows that savegame has an ai named ´wormai.4´ which is no longer available
17:17:59 <Alberth> both in a tar file, with identical paths inside the tar?
17:18:43 <Wormnest> Well except the version number
17:19:29 <Alberth> ie, the path to the tar is not stored, so it cannot differentiate which is which
17:20:19 <Wormnest> Well my tars do have the version number so they do differ
17:21:05 <Wormnest> Looking at the message it seems when explicitly loading a specific version of the ai
17:21:21 <Wormnest> it stores the version number as part of the ai name ´wormai.4´
17:22:04 <Wormnest> Yes folder name inside tar is WormAI-v5, WormAI-v4 etc
17:23:07 <Alberth> ok, so it's a different bug then
17:28:57 <Alberth> couldn't hurt, although there might be other known problems with AI version numbering, I don't know
17:33:11 <Wormnest> Ok working on it. I bet it´s not much tested since it´s not that well known.
17:38:43 <Alberth> there are lots of unknown corners :)
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17:59:19 <Samu> when I was using the altered BusyBee, I extracted the original tar on the same location. It created a folder with the extracted stuff inside it
18:00:05 <Samu> my change was deleting a file required for BusyBee to function properly. I changed it in order to make it crash.
18:00:19 <Samu> extracted tar folder takes precedence
18:00:26 <Samu> both versions were there
18:02:15 <Samu> they had the same version numbering internally
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18:03:01 <Alberth> game scripts are different from AIs
18:03:27 <Alberth> although possibly not much wrt versioning
18:03:56 <Alberth> I do know that BB uses a different versioning system than most other scripts
18:07:17 <Samu> let me check how a script is chosen, i stumbled upon this choice when I was evaluating a way to fix something for my patch
18:19:18 <Samu> /* static */ void AI::Initialize()
18:26:28 <Samu> interesting, the problem you're dealing with is quite similar to mine
18:26:43 <Samu> I want to deal with previous configs
18:26:50 <Samu> you want to deal with older versions
18:27:49 <Samu> seems the way tarscanner works is to use the most up to date version
18:28:07 <Samu> so, maybe not totally related to my issue
18:35:46 <Alberth> even just asking a question differently will give you different answers in return
18:36:19 <Samu> it's confusing after all
18:36:40 <Samu> tarscanner actually scans both wormai 4 and wormai 5
18:36:50 <Samu> but when initializing the ais
18:37:02 <Samu> maybe the problem is afterwards
18:37:12 <Alberth> that's ok, scanners scan, they don't decide what to keep, at least that is what I would hope
18:38:01 <Samu> so, tarscanner knows that both exist, probably further down in AI::Initialize()
18:39:08 <Alberth> talk sleepy english :)
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18:48:46 <Samu> there's info_list and info_single_list
18:49:05 <Samu> info_list includes all versions, info_single_list only includes the most recent version
18:49:23 <Samu> wormai.4 + wormai.5 in info_list
18:49:49 <Samu> info_single_list only says wormai, but when i explore inside it, i find that it's version 5
18:50:11 <Alberth> Wormnest: is wormai.4 compatible with wormai.5 ?
18:50:23 <Samu> min.compatible version says 1
18:50:26 <Alberth> that could explain dropping of the .4
18:50:51 <Alberth> right, no reason to use wormai.4 then
18:55:50 <Samu> i better use your savegame, brb
19:01:40 <Samu> strange, when listing AIs, the last that appears is WmDOT, seems like it's capped
19:02:06 <Samu> WormAI would be listed alphabetically later
19:02:40 <Samu> is there a cap to how many lines the consoles can display?
19:03:17 <Alberth> wouldn't expect that, tbh
19:03:28 <Wormnest> Alberth: Yes they are compatible
19:03:44 <Wormnest> Did I misinterpret the meaning of min version
19:04:39 <Samu> gonna delete some AIs, brb
19:04:43 <Alberth> if version 4 can be replaced with version 5, I don't see a reason why that would not happen, tbh
19:05:09 <Quinch> Mind if I ask a few gameplay questions?
19:05:09 <Alberth> newer versions tend to have fewer bugs :)
19:05:22 <Alberth> Quinch: nope, just ask
19:05:24 <Wormnest> Well in an ideal world :)
19:05:41 <Wormnest> If you don´t introduce new features
19:05:53 <Alberth> yeah, let's just say an old version has 1 bug that the new one doesn't have :)
19:06:19 <Quinch> First, are there any ways to modify airport permissions, either by noise or absolute amount-per-town?
19:06:28 <Alberth> or it has extra game play :p
19:06:53 <Quinch> Also, any ways to tell ahead of time how quickly wagons can fill?
19:07:19 <Alberth> Quinch: by noise, yes. If airports have 0 noise you can have lots
19:07:36 <Alberth> iirc opengfx+airports has that???
19:07:45 <Alberth> never play with aircraft
19:08:08 <Wormnest> but MinVersionToLoad = 1 doesn´t that mean that I can load any version equal or higher than 1
19:08:22 <Alberth> it might be more fun to place airports out of town, and transport passengers
19:09:00 <Alberth> Quinch: too boring, plop down 2 airports, buy load of aircraft, game done
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19:09:31 <FLHerne> Quinch: Also, they have this frustrating tendency to generate more traffic than you can possibly fulfil, even with a dozen airports at each end
19:09:39 <Wormnest> Well thatś one of the things my ai and a lot of other do too :p
19:09:43 <Quinch> I don't use them for passengers, just secondary cargo for FIRS industries. And the fact that the AIs aren't so constrained makes a nice challenge, I think.
19:10:02 <Alberth> oh, AIs, never use them either :p
19:10:06 <FLHerne> So you get locked into a loop of "aargh, 3 million pax" -> [build more planes/airports] -> "aargh, 5 million pax"
19:10:33 <Quinch> Alberth, sometimes they do. ;-}
19:10:37 <FLHerne> Ah, that might work better. Did try helicopters for that, the range was a bit awkward with av8
19:10:58 <Alberth> Wormnest: afaik "min version" is the smallest version that the given version can load
19:11:28 <Alberth> since 1 <= 4, version 5 can load version 4 games
19:11:33 <Wormnest> That´s what I was thinking too
19:11:59 <Wormnest> It´s probably just caused by the first bug
19:12:18 <Alberth> I am not sure there is a bug at all
19:12:32 <Alberth> the game can pick version 5, and continue playing
19:12:32 <Samu> /* We want to load the latest version of this AI; so find it */
19:12:48 <Samu> heh... already see the code doing something ... that shouldn't
19:12:48 <Alberth> why would it ever load version 4?
19:13:01 <Samu> i dunno, because it was started as v4
19:13:16 <Wormnest> I read somewhere maybe ai wiki that loading a savegame it first tries to load the version it was saved with
19:13:24 <Alberth> that defeats the updating mechanism when you fix a bug
19:13:32 <Wormnest> Doesn´t it do that for NewGRF´s too
19:14:48 <Samu> this->info_single_list - it's searching for 'wormai' in this list, which means... there's only v5 in there
19:15:07 <Alberth> I think so, but min-version compatibility is quite new in newgrfs
19:15:29 <Alberth> ie action 14 added it
19:17:29 <Samu> /* If we didn't find a match AI, maybe the user included a version */
19:17:44 <Samu> the user did, but the savegame did not
19:17:47 <Wormnest> The good thing is it gave me a reason to add a function to load whatever it finds on the map :)
19:18:06 <Alberth> that sounds useful :)
19:18:20 <frosch123> V453000: hi gastropodes :)
19:19:37 <Samu> gonna check what the savegame actually saves, brb
19:21:43 <Samu> saves the name, saves the version, saves if it's random, saves parameters and an AI::Save, which is asking the AI to save stuff
19:22:16 <Wolf01> just finished building the new lego maze, it's really cool
19:22:42 <Wormnest> But is there a difference in the name saved by the latest version of ai and an older started with a number
19:23:29 <Samu> problem doesn't appear to be when saving
19:23:30 <V453000> Wolf01: you can make wall mazes in factorio :P
19:23:44 <Samu> if it's a problem, i don't really think it is, given Alberth explanation
19:23:57 <V453000> sure but for players :P
19:24:29 <Wolf01> for players is not so cool, you have bird eye view and the map :P
19:24:58 <V453000> yeah but big maze = not so easy
19:25:00 <Wormnest> Hm should make a test where WormAI 4 is the latest version available and then add v5
19:26:16 <Samu> it actually loads the version
19:26:29 <Samu> but when initializing the ai, it prefers to load the latest version
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19:27:40 <Samu> i better recheck this loading from the start
19:28:26 <Samu> DEBUG(script, 0, "The savegame has an AI by the name '%s', version %d which is no longer available.", _ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version);
19:30:55 <Wormnest> Well that does indeed also load v5 so it´s at least consistent :)
19:33:12 <Wormnest> Although it doesn´t complain about older version not being available and does load the savegame data
19:36:44 <Wormnest> Note that in the scenario where you use startai wormai.4 it says the name of the ai is ´wormai.4´ not wormai
19:40:02 <Samu> if (StrEmpty(_ai_saveload_name)) {
19:40:09 <Samu> _ai_saveload_name = wormai.4
19:40:24 <supermop> frosch123: thank you for using correct plural
19:43:24 <Wormnest> but shouldn´t it have been saved as wormai
19:43:39 <Wormnest> because version is already saved separately
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19:45:25 <Samu> force exact match, hmm it's trying to load the exact match "wormai.4", from where
19:46:11 <Samu> if (force_exact_match) { it skipped this step
19:46:45 <Samu> had it not skip it, it would do this: /* Try to find a direct 'name.version' match */
19:46:46 <frosch123> supermop: did you expect "gastropods" or "gastropedes"?
19:46:59 <Samu> and it would be loading v4
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19:47:10 <Samu> from the info_list, which is there
19:47:24 <supermop> at least it wasn't gastropi like moronic americans would say
19:48:19 <Samu> it skipped that step, now it's doing this /* See if there is a compatible AI which goes by that name, with the highest * version which allows loading the requested version */
19:50:44 <Wormnest> Which is ok but it´s not loading the savegame data even though it should
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19:56:24 <Samu> strange if (strcasecmp(ai_name, i->GetName()) == 0
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19:56:38 <Samu> it was comparing wormai.4 with WormAI
20:03:22 <Wormnest_> My idea is that the ´.4´ part shouldn´t have been saved as part of the name in the savegame
20:06:05 <Samu> it iterated over both versions, but it was comparing as WormAI
20:06:30 <Samu> now i wonder if that's what it's supposed to do
20:09:45 <Samu> i'm already on that part of the code where it is loading the latest version because it didn't find a matching version
20:11:52 <Wormnest_> Because the test save where wormai v4 was the latest and started normally doesn´t show the same behavior
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20:12:51 <Wormnest_> I added the other savegame to the bug report for comparison
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20:34:56 <Samu> the 2nd time it is comparing
20:35:07 <Samu> it is comparing as wormai to WormAI
20:35:19 <Samu> it truncated the .4 out of it
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20:36:24 <Wormnest_> ugh connection so bad lately
20:36:29 <Samu> let's see what it does now when it finds a match
20:36:48 <Samu> it will iterate over both v4 and v5, but i suspect at this point, he's gonna just use the latest version
20:39:08 <Samu> wormai to WormAI is true! :9
20:39:13 <Samu> it's now comparing versions
20:41:01 <Wormnest_> Using latest version is ok that seems intentional
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20:53:04 <Samu> i'm now testing a savegame of my own
20:53:25 <Samu> the name that is loaded is WormAI, not wormai.4
20:53:44 <Samu> there's some discrepancy
20:54:03 <Samu> and i mean the saved name
20:54:23 <Samu> and the save provided by wormnest had it saved as wormai.4
20:54:44 <Samu> brb, gonna try something else
20:55:59 <Wormnest_> My first savegame yes, the second savegame probably also had wormai
20:57:10 <Samu> ah, now i used the console: startai wormai.4
20:57:21 <Samu> and it saved with the name 'wormai.4'
20:57:58 <Samu> let me check your other save
21:02:52 <Samu> your other same, saved it as 'WormAI'
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21:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i suppose "-pi" is a joke that got out of hand...
21:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, are slugs gastropodes? they don't exactly have feet... not even on their mouths...
21:59:19 <V453000> I am fairly sure they are
22:01:51 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: slug is the essential gastropod
22:03:15 <supermop> also you would be surprised how many americans adamantly believe plural of octopus is octopi and will make a point of correcting anyone who says octopuses (correct english plural) or octopodes (correct greek)
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22:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> just tell them "it's not 'millipi' either"
22:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> thankfully, that problem doesn't really exist in german...
22:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if a german makes a plural, he just sticks an -e on it. or maybe if it already has an -e, turns it into an -en, or if it has an -en or -er it stays an -en or -er, or maybe something completely different. totally easy.
22:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it somehow got more common to slap an s on it (inspired from english)
22:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> especially with foreign words or abbreviations
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22:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the last spelling reform added a rule that english-derived words which end in -y turn into -ys instead of -ies
22:23:56 <Samu> it does not find any script
22:25:31 <Samu> line 87 - (!config->HasScript())
22:25:58 <Samu> this is true, and begins the bracket { } which apparently shouldn't
22:26:08 <Samu> problem originated at line 86
22:28:35 <Samu> at line 90, it cuts the '.4' out of 'wormai.4'
22:28:53 <Samu> and in there it compares wormai with "WormAI"
22:29:07 <Samu> and finds both v4 and v5, and decides to use v5
22:29:59 <Samu> there is a script now, so the next (!config->HasScript()) and line 91 is false, and jumps to the else part
22:30:10 <Samu> at line 99, it prints the error message
22:30:41 <Wormnest_> Going for 5 seems intended problem is it doesn´t load the savedata form wormai.4
22:31:46 <Samu> gonna see if i can change the way it compares version
22:31:53 <Samu> erm, compares name, that is
22:32:43 <Samu> does not find any script because it tries to match 'wormai.4' with 'WormAI' - this is the problem
22:32:58 <Samu> and this problem is .. somewhere in another file, let me get the name
22:35:59 <Samu> jumps to 120, also false
22:36:16 <Samu> and the comparison issue is at line 133
22:36:25 <Samu> it is cycling over all available scripts in the system
22:36:50 <Samu> and the name wasn't truncated at this point
22:37:48 <Samu> line 133 is working with the wrong name
22:43:14 <supermop> time to play some in a hot country?
22:48:37 <Samu> better check the saving part of the code again
22:52:22 <Samu> it saves with the name wormai.4, think the problem might be even before doing the save
22:52:59 <Samu> must find the console command 'startai'
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23:10:34 <Samu> the console sets the name of the AI to wormai.4
23:12:49 <Samu> but when it returns with the ai
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23:27:49 <Samu> it takes the name of the argument and uses it as the name
23:29:10 <Samu> 'startai wormai.4' - it needs 'wormai.4' in the argument to find the wormai with version 4 in the system. So far, this is correct
23:29:29 <Samu> what is not correct is that it also sets the name of the AI to 'wormai.4'
23:30:24 <Samu> hmm, it needs to rename 'wormai.4' to whatever name version 4 of wormai actually sets it to
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