IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-22
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00:00:01 <Wormnest_> ah I see, haven´t touched that part in a long time lol
00:00:31 <Wormnest_> At that time 2kx2k maps were the max size
00:01:58 <Wormnest_> I guess a min/max distance of 500, 2000, for plane speed I have never tested anything but 1/4
00:03:14 <Samu> let me check NoCAB aircraft stuff, he's usually good at calculating optimal distance
00:03:29 <Wormnest_> I´m planning on removing those settings sometime they´re too dependent on other factors
00:04:32 <Wormnest_> Yea thatś what I want to do too + maybe a prefernce for short, medium or longer routes
00:05:40 <Samu> airport 1 coordinates: 2897 x 1774
00:06:09 <Samu> airport 2 coordinates: 2728 x 2039
00:06:22 <Samu> what's the distance here?
00:07:19 <Wormnest_> lol I´m not an expert of that kinda math
00:08:06 <Samu> gonna try a 3rd WormAI with a 400 for max distance
00:09:27 <Wormnest_> on a 512x512 map I usually use 100 or 150 for min and 1000 for max
00:11:50 <Samu> the first wormai is doing so bad that the 2nd one already ahead
00:13:11 <Samu> nocab crashed... took too long to save t.t
00:13:12 <Wormnest_> That early there´s probably not enough towns large enough
00:13:35 <Wormnest_> not me, my own ai game is still running
00:14:05 <Samu> sometimes i wish i could strip apart the save feature
00:15:12 <Samu> can't really trust NoCAB for multiplayer games
00:16:13 <Wormnest_> I did have a look at the Bleeding Edge version one time but didn´t fix it yet
00:16:32 <Wormnest_> though I think I fixed another bug there
00:18:04 <Samu> why is that AIs got to save while a client is joining? do they really have to?
00:18:15 <Samu> clients aren't running the script
00:18:24 <Samu> they don't need the AI save
00:18:38 <Wormnest_> I have no idea I always use single player
00:19:17 <Wormnest_> My WormAI has a savegame loading bug too which if fixed in the development version
00:19:50 <glx> Samu: AI saves when server saves
00:20:33 <glx> because openttd tell them it's time to save
00:22:55 <Samu> must find where in the code that happens
00:23:24 <Samu> i believe they don't need to save in this case
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00:47:31 <Samu> okay, AI not saving his data
00:48:18 <Samu> there seems to be no issues, apparently, gonna build a bit of stuff
00:55:39 <Samu> i've built stuff as the server, and as the client that joined
00:56:24 <Samu> might need some more testing to be really sure
00:58:51 <Samu> the other day, glx you told me clients that join a server that runs the AI can't save their data on the savegame
00:59:18 <glx> yes they discard it on load
00:59:41 <Samu> seems like when a client joins, the same could be applied here
01:00:13 <Samu> but it's the server performing the save now, maybe with a bool flag, something akin to what I did with faster server patch
01:00:47 <Samu> brb, gonna try this bool thing
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01:57:04 <Samu> seems to be doing it as intended
01:57:28 <Samu> if i manually save the game, the AIs are saving their data, if a client joins, the AIs aren't saving their data
01:58:01 <Samu> and boy NoCAB stalls the save process for 20 seconds... poor client gets network game connection lost
01:59:32 <Samu> autosaves better keep saving AI data
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11:05:23 <Alberth> most mammals are still asleep today :)
11:10:33 <frosch123> yes, i found an item on my todo list, that i already did !
11:14:36 <Alberth> ha, you're faster than yourself :)
11:15:50 <Alberth> btw, slowly working on the scenario tar format, save is somewhat working currently
11:16:32 <Alberth> the proposal is still missing a lot though, eg no idustries at all
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12:30:12 <Samu> i tried WormAI using only trains, it cannot start because of loan/money issue
12:30:40 <Samu> can't build station, i check his money, he's in negative balance, but it could ask for loan
12:30:42 <Wormnest> Hm, I think I may have fixed that in the development version
12:31:21 <Wormnest> You could try the dev version its on openttdcoop and bitucket
12:31:43 <Wormnest> Has some other improvements too
12:33:18 <Samu> i'm testing 15 wormais together
12:33:23 <Samu> but with different parameters
12:35:12 <Samu> too early to come with any conclusion
12:37:44 <Samu> if you want to obs, try joining the game
12:37:53 <Samu> hopefully your AIs save fast
12:38:02 <Wormnest> though ai parameters only dont make the difference
12:38:21 <Wormnest> well Iḿ still running my own game so maybe another time
12:39:03 <Wormnest> e.g. starting WormAI in 1930 the only train vesion will perform better than air only
12:39:15 <Wormnest> but in 1980 it´s probably reversed
12:40:18 <Wormnest> Maximum number of planes and trains and other settings are also relevant ofcourse
12:40:43 <Samu> i've set 5000,5000,5000,5000 vehicles
12:41:29 <Samu> testing on temperate tileset this time
12:42:53 <Samu> train physics are realistic accel with default on the rest
12:44:45 <Samu> no disasters for airplanes
12:45:15 <Samu> allow town control level noise for airports
12:45:27 <Samu> difficulty settings profile for AI is hard
12:45:43 <Samu> construction speed very fast
12:46:15 <Wormnest> Well then in the end air only should win over train only
12:47:07 <Wormnest> unless using a NewGRF that makes airplanes more expensive and/or trains more profitable
12:47:18 <Samu> no, i don't use newgrfs, i hate that
12:48:25 <Wormnest> ofcourse turning infrastructure costs on will make the air only go bankrupt pretty fast
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12:48:52 <Samu> infrastructure costs is off
12:48:53 <Wormnest> probably even the train only ones since I don´t really take that into consideration
12:49:18 <Samu> im also not using cargo distribution stuff
12:50:37 <Samu> 500k max loan, no breakdowns
12:50:53 <Samu> maybe i should start testing ais with breakdowns on
12:54:54 <Wormnest> Those shouldn´t matter especially when testing only 1 type of ai
12:55:59 <Wormnest> Although airplanes that fly longer distances will take a lot longer to arrive
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13:19:42 <Samu> hey Wormnest, since you test AIs, what do you think of my patch?
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13:31:37 <Wormnest> Sorry haven´t really looked at it and haven´t compiled OpenTTD in several years
13:34:35 <Wormnest> All slots always being configurable and being able to open readme etc sounds useful
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13:34:59 <Wormnest> Don´t know if the status icons are really needed
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13:37:05 <Eearslya> frosch123: Gasp, like..4 months later the issue I fixed is finally closed XD
13:37:49 <frosch123> lucky you, others were 12 months old :p
13:39:24 <Eearslya> I should hang out here more often and see if there are other little things I can fix
13:45:10 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27580 /trunk/src (articulated_vehicles.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2016-05-22 13:45:03 +0200 )
13:45:11 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6395]: Set date of last service on construction also for wagons and articulated parts.
13:51:24 <_dp_> hi, just remembered one small thing that always bugged me.
13:51:42 <_dp_> station "built" date in info window is actually date of last modification
13:52:04 <_dp_> is that really indentional? coz I find real built date to be much more useful
13:52:27 <frosch123> it is for date-dependent graphics
13:52:36 <frosch123> they shall update when overbuilding the station
13:53:48 <_dp_> built date is useful for moderating in mp (stealing and such), so would be nice to have it too
13:54:45 <frosch123> no idea, i do not even know whether there is only a single date, or individual dates for station parts
13:57:17 <_dp_> hm, does that mean whole station will update graphics when sigle piece is added I wonder
13:57:46 <frosch123> i am sure someone thought about that in 2006 :p
13:57:53 <frosch123> and then made it like ttdp did
13:58:48 <frosch123> i am no big fan of using many station graphics, so i have no idea what "features" are actually used
13:59:42 <frosch123> i wondered about making the ai callback for selecting station graphics also accessible to humans :p
14:00:41 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27581 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2016-05-22 14:00:36 +0200 )
14:00:42 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6461]: Button size computation in script configuration window. (adf88)
14:02:41 <Alberth> I once discussed with andy to move station graphics mostly to newobjects
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14:03:31 <Alberth> it would need probably to have some communication to the object for displaying cargo graphics
14:04:14 <frosch123> but... that would break station walking! all cheaters are doomed
14:06:10 <_dp_> don't use station grfs either, can't even think of one that uses that date
14:06:39 <frosch123> i am sure there is if you look into the realism bs :)
14:06:42 <_dp_> wait, what will break walking?xD
14:07:12 <frosch123> _dp_: making non-track station tiles not count to the station area
14:08:05 <frosch123> so people are punished by having to place tiles with track inbetween houses
14:08:39 <_dp_> frosch123, what are non-track tiles? newgrf stuff?
14:09:17 <frosch123> yes, when building stations with newgrf stations, there are some graphics for platforms with track
14:09:39 <frosch123> and some graphics for buildings or mineral piles for tiles, which then have no track
14:10:03 <_dp_> also walking is about moving station sign, don't see why can't be done with track tiles, aren't you talking about spreading?
14:10:11 <frosch123> some of them look like regular town houses, so you can station walk without anyone noticing a graphical disturbance
14:10:31 <frosch123> _dp_: yeah, station walking and spreading is the same for me
14:11:20 <_dp_> ah, no, they are completely different :p
14:11:46 <_dp_> spreading is getting more coverage area, I usually do with adding bus stations
14:12:07 <_dp_> walking is moving station sign, usually for keeping authority
14:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: originally, station walking was a method for constructing disconnected station parts, had nothing to do about station sign
14:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (in fact, you could not move the station sign at all)
14:13:05 <_dp_> ah, ok, I'm relatively new to openntd, now there is ctrl for that xD
14:13:49 <frosch123> yes, there was a time when the station sign position was not updated when removing parts of the station
14:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (so part of station walking involved constructing the station sign at the furthest point available, and then "walking" the station towards the acceptance area of the cargo)
14:14:02 <frosch123> so you could have the platform and the sign on opposing sites of the map
14:14:33 <Flygon> Thooooose were the days
14:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the "walking" part of the name probably came from the fact that you (usually) alternated between building a truck stop and a bus stop
14:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and then removing the other one
14:15:26 <_dp_> oh snap, and it didn't even check station size for sign?
14:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> as you could only have one rectangular train station, one bus stop, and one truck stop per station
14:17:22 <_dp_> yeah, I see how that's "walking", good that's fixed)
14:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how many people actually abused the station-sign-outside-station "feature"
14:21:23 <_dp_> Now only way to "cheat" with walking I know of is for CB that checks station's "nearest" town
14:22:15 <V453000> if newobjects could show cargo AND tracks could be laid under them, it would work perfectly fine
14:22:57 <Alberth> the discussion was only cargo graphics
14:23:16 <Alberth> and all the non-platform tiles, buildings etc
14:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: how would an object know about cargos?
14:24:12 <Alberth> it gets told about cargoes at nearby station?
14:24:18 <V453000> I am not saying I know the technical solution, I just say those things are necessary to make them replace station tile graphics
14:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that sounds horrible.
14:24:59 <Alberth> well, it mostly started by my comment that the office buildings etc that don't need to be station tiles
14:26:02 <Alberth> not sure how horrible it is, the current "all platform tiles show the same" isn't that useful either
14:26:22 <Alberth> although that has nothing to do with being station tiles, perhaps
14:26:40 <V453000> elyon has some amazing functionalities coming for stations, NML for stations, and CATS
14:26:46 <V453000> shame all of that is lost
14:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just NewGRF coders being lazy and picking "most cargo" instead of a specific (or random) one
14:27:04 <V453000> I can try to contact her but I doubt it will be brought anywhere
14:27:32 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I'd really like to know which cargoes a station has, besides one
14:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well, maybe the tools available are not optimal
14:30:05 <V453000> nfo is just other world
14:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> idea: sort cargos from smallest to largest, and sum up the numbers until you reach a (potentially randomized) threshold, then use the cargo that put you over the threshold
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14:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> needs some scaling
14:32:26 <Alberth> does that even need sorting?
14:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think sorting helps
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14:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> if you specifically want some tiles to show "rare" cargos, you give them a low threshold manually
14:34:00 <Alberth> your treshold just points at a random point in the sequence, more cargo of one kind means it catches more points
14:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if the threshold were completely random
14:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it might be not, then some more specific behaviour might make sense
14:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> next problem would be with mixing bulk/piece cargos. some tiles might only want to show bulk, and the others only piece
14:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you either need to filter out the cargos before making the sum, or you get "invalid" cargos which would then show empty tiles
14:39:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: idea: show random cargo amounts that slowly change throughout the year
14:39:33 <frosch123> also looks nice with full load
14:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'd use the monthly throughput instead of the currently waiting cargo for that
14:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and while at it, the thresholds for showing low/high amount of cargo should be randomized throughout the station, so not all tiles switch simultaneously
14:42:09 <frosch123> do grfs even use that?
14:44:50 <V453000> we wanted to use it in CATS
14:49:50 <Samu> svn updating is complaining about a "Conflicted" action
14:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ISR definitely has small and big piles
14:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think even NewStations has small and big number of passengers
14:50:25 <Samu> something in ai_gui.cpp is "Conflicted" t.t, i'm not used to this
14:50:29 <frosch123> i think i overinterpreted your statement
14:50:38 <frosch123> i thought you meant the small/large threshold
14:50:47 <frosch123> but you actually only mean the "load amount"
14:51:21 <Samu> brb, gonna revert my patch stuff
14:52:42 <Samu> ah, it updated everything fine now
14:53:01 <Samu> there's a conflict probably because of my editing of ai_gui.cpp
14:54:18 <Samu> sorry, i'm asking dumb questions, first time I had openttd trunk revisions affecting files I've also edited
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15:03:53 <Alberth> I am sure whatever gui tool you use for the VCS, its manual explains updates and conflicts
15:04:25 <Samu> Rejected patch hunks for 'ai_gui.cpp'
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15:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: now i'm confused what you mean
15:17:25 <frosch123> vehicles map cargo-amount to loading-stage-graphics with a linear mapping
15:17:59 <frosch123> stations do that with a linear spline with an additional moveable control point in the middle
15:18:45 <frosch123> the first spline segment refers to "little cargo", the second one to "lots cargo"
15:22:00 <Alberth> I think the point is that different tiles should "little" and "lots" for different amounts
15:22:27 <Alberth> so you don't get this station-wide switching between them
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15:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think you're using "linear spline" wrong here
15:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> where it's more like a "stair function"
15:38:23 <frosch123> i think of it as a function composed of a spline and a stair applied afterwards
15:38:40 <frosch123> but well, the point is, for stations there are two step sizes
15:52:52 <Samu> inconsistent line endings... what?
16:01:11 <Samu> i don't understand why tortoisesvn is not allowing me to patch
16:01:21 <Samu> what's inconsistent line endings?
16:02:10 <Samu> do i have to write manually into visual studio?
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16:20:02 <Alberth> it means the line termination of some lines is different from the other lines
16:20:33 <Alberth> typically you're mixing unix line termination with windows line termination
16:31:48 <Samu> gah, already hurried to make a patch without seeing the end result
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16:32:01 <Samu> i'm really newb to all this
16:32:23 <Samu> visual studio autostyle always getting in the way
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16:41:24 <Alberth> is windows ever not in the way?
16:41:47 <Samu> copy each line individually from svn, then paste on visual studio
16:41:57 <Samu> then pay attention to the autostyle
16:42:56 <Samu> if i copy multiple lines from svn to visual studio, then save on visual studio, when i try to create a patch on tortoisesvn, it would complain about end of line
16:43:46 <Samu> their text editor looks a bit rushed
16:44:01 <Samu> notepad++ doesn't do this
16:45:17 <Samu> i can write entire code lines in notepad++, then copy from it, paste on visual studio, save, then tortoisesvn still creates patches without complaining
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17:35:35 <andythenorth> CHIPS uses the little/lots thresholds
17:36:33 <andythenorth> station cargo sprites are a BAD FEATURE though
17:40:08 <andythenorth> I cannot think of any plausible rule to distribute the waiting cargos across multiple tiles
17:41:48 <Alberth> to see all the cargoes waiting at the station, and to some extent, the relative quantity
17:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's "reason", not "rule" :p
17:43:05 <Alberth> random selecting as you suggested could work
17:43:18 <Alberth> except "empty" would be nice to have too
17:43:28 <Alberth> but not that important
17:46:28 <andythenorth> I wondered about round-robin from N tile
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17:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but wouldn't that cause loads of empty tiles, because you can't adjust the number of cargos to try?
17:47:34 <andythenorth> and it would look hotch-potch
17:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that means
17:49:56 <andythenorth> seems google images doesn’t either
17:51:53 <andythenorth> anyway, it would be a mess
18:08:59 <andythenorth> provide a unique tile for each cargo, let the player decide what to show?
18:21:11 <Alberth> that would be a lot of work
18:21:45 <Alberth> for each station select the tiles with the correct graphics
18:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the "easiest" solution for mixed cargos is to provide a tile for each cargo and let the user choose
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18:34:49 <andythenorth> refittable tiles?
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19:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27582 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2016-05-22 19:45:36 +0200 )
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 18 changes by Absay
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21:11:28 <_dp_> wish there was code to get back previous color in strings
21:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> there is not. live with it or change it.
21:18:59 <Rubidium> _dp_: no need to wish
21:19:17 <Rubidium> just look at negative amounts of currency
21:24:34 <_dp_> Rubidium, what do you mean?
21:38:04 <Alberth> your wish got granted :)
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22:00:04 <_dp_> not quite, there seems to be special character for that, but no actual string code to use
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22:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so add a string code?
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23:24:26 <_dp_> damn, I hate stupid services that think they can freeze my pc for 15 mins to do their useless crap :(
23:24:41 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's a trivial one-line change
23:30:42 <_dp_> also I think I found a way for server to crash client while messing with those special codes xD
23:30:56 <_dp_> not much of an issue ofc
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