IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-21
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11:42:33 <frosch123> sometimes you learn about your mail group memberships only when someone sends spam to them :p
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12:43:26 <andythenorth> so I have unexpected 24 hours with nothing I have to do
12:43:35 <andythenorth> NotRoadTypes? o_O
12:48:36 <Alberth> is an option, make new bus stops possible :p
12:50:38 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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16:59:46 <Samu> Wormnest: is WormAI your AI'
17:00:48 <Samu> ah, nice. what does this setting change?
17:00:56 <Samu> How fast this AI will think
17:01:14 <Samu> fast = better paths, worst paths?
17:01:25 <Samu> want to set it to be super rich
17:02:31 <Alberth> give it all your money!
17:03:08 <Samu> I'm piting WormAI with NoCAB and maybe a 3rd one, which have yet to decid
17:03:38 <Wormnest> It´s mostly how long it waits between trying to build something new
17:04:29 <Wormnest> But I also try to make it into similar like difficulty, thus slow=easy, fast=difficult
17:05:20 <Wormnest> yea fast is best for most competitive
17:05:35 <Samu> maybe I'm trying SimpleAI, instead of trAIns
17:06:20 <Wormnest> SimpleAI is where I based my trains part off, so maybe better to choose another one
17:06:51 <Wormnest> Although I have made changes to make it different and more changes to come
17:07:19 <Wormnest> Terron is usually doing pretty well
17:12:55 <Samu> 5 AIs, this will be slow
17:15:09 <Samu> NoCAB eating ram like nothing
17:15:47 <Alberth> luckily you get it back after use
17:16:52 <Samu> oh right, Terron is also a ram eater
17:17:18 <Wormnest> How can you tell which is using a lot of ram
17:17:31 <Samu> i used to test them solo
17:19:41 <Wormnest> I´m testing 14 atm it´slow but I´m not in a hurry
17:24:32 <Wormnest> At least I have a more reasonable mapsize lol. I use 512x512 and don´t use a server.
17:26:16 <Samu> i'd like to test 15 AIs, but it ends up crashing OpenTTD at some point
17:28:44 <Wormnest> Maybe it runs out of memory with that map size
17:28:57 <Samu> there is no crash report, I don't know what to do when there's no log
17:29:46 <Alberth> maybe it ran out of memory
17:30:08 <Alberth> making a crash reports also takes memory, which is hard if you don't have any left
17:30:12 <Samu> but how? I'm running 64-bit OpenTTD
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17:31:26 <Samu> windows event log: Código de exceção: 0xc0000005
17:31:55 <Alberth> yeah, whoever invented translations of system errors should be shot
17:32:51 <Alberth> but the internet can tell you what error it is
17:34:14 <Samu> we have a dump... C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER568.tmp.dmp, probably i can't access it anyway
17:34:58 <Wormnest> It´s most likely in a format you can´t read yourself
17:35:37 <Samu> i navigate to that folder, and the folder is emtpy
17:35:50 <Samu> windows likes to hide system stuff
17:40:59 <Samu> google says: access violation (0xc0000005)
17:45:02 <Samu> testing again, but now with visual studio launching it
18:07:32 <Samu> yeah nocab started finally
18:09:15 <Samu> i wonder why it isn't crashing now
18:09:25 <Samu> did you try to join the game the other time?
18:10:06 <Samu> there's a few times the server crashes when someone joins
18:11:50 <Samu> oh wow... it crashed now, visual studio is saying something
18:12:14 <Samu> Exception thrown at 0x00007FF6A706DC5A in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005:
18:12:21 <Samu> Exception thrown at 0x00007FF6A706DC5A in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x000000AF132DFFF8.
18:12:45 <Samu> matches what google said
18:25:16 <Samu> what's a minidump with heap?
18:28:08 <Samu> error saving dump. Invalid pointer.
18:31:27 <Samu> oh wow, a 4.59 GB dump file :) do you want it?
18:31:48 <Alberth> nah, stack trace at most
18:32:07 <Alberth> if it provides anything useful
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18:33:19 <Samu> i got 2 save dump options, minidump, a 1 MB file, and minidump with heap, 4.59 GB
18:33:44 <Alberth> I have no idea what that means
18:34:03 <Samu> dumping with visual studio
18:34:12 <Alberth> but I believe it crashed
18:34:28 <Alberth> stacktrace of what it was doing might be useful
18:35:07 <Alberth> at least if you run a non-modified version
18:36:15 <Alberth> something like that yeah
18:36:35 <Alberth> about 20-50 lines of "I was in this function at this line"
18:38:25 <Samu> uhm, page isn't opening :8
18:40:27 <Alberth> The maximum number of stack frames supported by Visual Studio has been exceeded. <-- haha :)
18:40:47 <Alberth> but it looks like a crash in squirrel
18:41:20 <Alberth> the call stack is not complete
18:41:41 <Alberth> lots of recursive calls aren't interesting
18:42:11 <Alberth> you might have run out of stack space
18:42:28 <Samu> me? probably one of the AIs
18:43:22 <Alberth> it looks like the garbage collector though
18:43:44 <Alberth> which suggests it may be the squirrel engine itself
18:44:45 <Samu> I will try again, see if it comes out with a similar error
18:45:05 <Alberth> you haven't seen the error itself
18:45:14 <Alberth> this was just a part of the path to it
18:50:59 <Samu> [17:35] <@Alberth> at least if you run a non-modified version - oops
18:51:24 <Samu> im running my "patch" AI gui thing on top of it
18:55:50 <Samu> I expect NoCAB is the culprit
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18:56:16 <Samu> the first time it crashed it was right after NoCAB had made it's first route
18:56:33 <Samu> but i'm also running 4 other AIs
18:56:51 <Samu> next time after this one, I will test NoCAB solo
18:58:00 <Samu> oh, and I will test without my gui stuff, too
18:58:59 <Alberth> stack trace seems not related to gui, but leaving own changes out is a good way to make sure
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19:04:18 <Samu> NoCAB made ships, and shortly after OpenTTD crashes again
19:05:15 <Samu> the error is not the same
19:05:20 <Samu> Unhandled exception thrown: write access violation. o._unVal.pTable-> was 0xECCBA1FFC8. If there is a handler for this exception, the program may be safely continued.
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19:05:58 <Samu> only 1 line in call stack
19:05:59 <Samu> > openttd.exe!SQSharedState::MarkObject(SQObjectPtr & o, SQCollectable * * chain) Line 235 C++
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19:07:43 <Samu> there's a nice comment in line 243 there
19:07:45 <Samu> default: break; //shutup compiler
19:09:44 <Alberth> that doesn't write anything :p
19:13:41 <Samu> reverted to trunk version r27569M
19:13:51 <Samu> i can't totally revert one file
19:14:15 <Samu> that's the only modification
19:16:27 <michi_cc> From the callstack I'd say that there's an squirrel array that contains itself. No idea though if this is caused by OTTD or a bug in NoCAB.
19:19:03 <Samu> oh, and dpi awareness, because... reasons
19:19:28 <Samu> forgot that's also included in that file
19:21:22 <Samu> <ClInclude Include="..\src\saveload\game_sl.h" /> - i have no idea what the hell is that
19:23:18 <Samu> oh:( there is, but it's totally emtpy, it must have been when i was testing stuff with visual studio, grr
19:24:19 <glx> openttd essential stuff must go to user file, not main project file
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19:28:17 <Samu> Exception thrown: write access violation. o._unVal.pTable-> was 0x795BC4FFE8. If there is a handler for this exception, the program may be safely continued.
19:30:00 <Samu> gonna try providing screenshot
19:31:05 <glx> looks like an infinite loop
19:31:39 <Samu> derp, *nocab was solo now
19:32:02 <Samu> he builds the first route, then after a while... crash
19:34:11 <Wormnest_> It may be collecting so much data for such a large map that squirrel or openttd can´t handle it
19:36:07 <Samu> OpenTTD with a total of 4.2 GB virtual size, i don't know if there's a limitation there
19:36:19 <Samu> but I tested Release x64 build
19:36:31 <glx> call stack looks like a recursion
19:39:04 <glx> and it's the garbage collector
19:39:04 <Wormnest_> Did the NoCAB script debug window show any details about what it was doing
19:39:41 <Samu> building connections in the background it seems
19:39:46 <Samu> not really building them
19:42:25 <Samu> will try NoCAB on a 2K map
19:43:20 <glx> too much towns for the AI probably
19:45:38 <Samu> the map generataed bout 12k~13k towns
19:45:48 <Wormnest_> Or you could try the Bleeding Edge version maybe it fixes the problem
19:46:13 <Samu> that version always fails to launch
19:46:38 <glx> if the AI starts listing all possible connection that can go very far with that number of towns
19:47:15 <V453000> if I make a NewGRF which only uses replace and replacenew, so that it can be used as a base set, can I make it for example define a new vehicle - possible to turn off by a parameter, and still use it as static newgrf with that vehicle turned off by the parameter?
19:47:31 <V453000> in other words, do parameter-disabled things break the static-only usage?
19:47:47 <V453000> I guess they shouldn't, right??
19:48:25 <glx> I think openttd checks the current state for static
19:50:20 <V453000> -> I can just have a parameter "make newgrf work as static" ?
19:51:15 <Alberth> why not make 2 newgrfs?
19:51:46 <Alberth> eliminates all mistakes
19:52:15 <V453000> I would prefer to have one if I can
19:52:23 <V453000> the extra functions won't be much
19:52:41 <V453000> universal wagon, universal rail
19:52:45 <Alberth> 80% of the users don't set parameters
19:53:11 <V453000> yeah, vast majority of users has no clue what is a static newgrf either
19:53:30 <Alberth> well, that saves you pretty much then :)
19:53:31 <V453000> so on that note the separation of newgrfs has no use for them :P
19:53:38 <frosch123> V453000: no that does not work
19:53:43 <frosch123> but you can make an add-on grf
19:53:56 <V453000> why doesn't it work? :(
19:54:56 <frosch123> the "unsafe" check does not evalutate parameters
19:56:13 <Samu> NoCAB seems working on a 2k map, already made 3 routes
19:56:18 <V453000> I wonder if I want to release 2 versions, one for static use and one complete
19:56:23 <V453000> cause add-on is kind of meh
19:56:28 <Samu> mem usage peaked at 1.5 GB virtual
19:57:31 <Samu> let me see how many towns it generated
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20:01:51 <V453000> :( why nothing I think about in the last 2 weeks works
20:04:22 <Samu> virtual size is rising, at 1.670K now, hmm maybe i better wait and see what happens
20:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> why do you need both a static and a non-static grf? sounds like wrong design goals
20:08:17 <V453000> well because brix is mostly a graphics replacement, but it would be nice if the same newgrf could also add a couple functional features
20:08:18 <_dp_> shouldn't any grf that doesn't change game mechanics be like that?
20:08:30 <V453000> because making an add-on newgrf is basically useless for any use without brix itself
20:10:03 <V453000> so it pretty much is one newgrf, but has to be split due to $reasons
20:11:00 <_dp_> hm, so you want a way to tell whether grf is static?
20:11:07 <_dp_> doesn't sound to hard to implement
20:11:16 <V453000> that, but with ability to check parameters
20:11:38 <V453000> so I could have a mostly visual replacement newgrf with a couple of extra functional features like universal rail or universal wagon for industry support
20:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> just make it a non-static grf
20:11:55 <V453000> and ability to disable each of those functional things by parameter, and then being able to use static newgrf
20:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that will never work
20:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> because the complexity of checking whether a grf could be used statically would surpass any level of coputability
20:14:17 <frosch123> it would also burry any option to ever make a select static newgrf gui :p
20:14:41 <V453000> yeah that would also be nice
20:15:01 <frosch123> imho a newgrf than can be static or non-static via parameter is arcane shit
20:15:29 <V453000> the concept doesn't sound that horrible to me
20:17:38 <V453000> I just hate the idea of add-ons because standalone they are usually completely useless
20:17:48 <V453000> I guess I can make it less useless
20:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine, just drop the idea of being static.
20:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or drop the idea of providing functionality
20:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have both.
20:18:46 <V453000> I will probably just release two standalone functional versions
20:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a reason why opengfx and opengfx+ are different things
20:24:39 <V453000> yeah I cba writing fuckload of code just to make a base set
20:28:56 <V453000> admittedly, assuming that someone would actually want to write such a thing later after I release it, maybe it makes more sense indeed to have base grf + add on
20:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to provide functionality, you also will want to split off vehicles, industries, etc. which are fundamentally different
20:30:59 <Samu> testing NoCAB on a 2Kx4K map, already got through that part where it would crash
20:31:08 <Samu> map generated 6400 towns
20:54:49 <Samu> I'm chaning server port from 3979 to 3980 while the server is running, but appears to make no effect. Must i restart the server?
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23:36:40 * Samu slaps Wormnest_ around a bit with a large fishbot
23:38:05 <Samu> wormai is having a difficult start
23:40:27 <Samu> tell me the best values for airport stuff, plz
23:40:46 <Samu> i've set it to 2000, 500, 4000
23:41:54 <Samu> i guess 4000 distance was a bad idea
23:49:01 <Samu> well, I started a 6th AI, there's 2 worms now
23:49:13 <Samu> 500, 150, 1500 vs 2000, 500, 4000
23:55:20 <Wormnest_> Well it really depends on the date you start and size of map
23:56:00 <Wormnest_> I guess 500 for minimum town size is ok
23:56:56 <Wormnest_> with that map size and number of towns minimum distance I would guess maybe 1000, not more
23:57:49 <Samu> 1000 minimum distance? but max value is 500
23:58:14 <Wormnest_> maximum doesn matter as much but in 1950 planes will have trouble to go 4000 tiles in a reasonable time
23:59:03 <Wormnest_> where do you see max 500
23:59:26 <Samu> minimum distance between airports, it's capped to 500
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