IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-10
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00:03:07 <Rubidium> did you actually change the currencies and do the math?
00:03:32 <Rubidium> I would be amazed if it weren't a factor 220
00:04:45 <supermop> nope i just notice that this trawler costs 3,000 quid and i normally pay about 2,000,000 yen for it
00:05:13 <supermop> can i change currency in a running game?.
00:05:39 <Samu> is the AI config gui window better organized and easy to undestand yet?
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00:29:16 <supermop> i am technically at work
00:30:23 <Samu> was looking for feedback about that window, if there's confusion yet, i guess there might be
00:30:36 <Samu> i'm trying to make it as simple as I can
00:31:04 <supermop> to me the ! is still not intuitive
00:31:50 <Samu> I see, I'm also not quite happy about it
00:32:30 <Samu> warning - human company here
00:32:49 <Samu> but I was trying to avoid writing Human Company in the name of the script
00:33:33 <supermop> to me ! means broken or conflicting, as that is what that symbol mean in newgrf list
00:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> let me tell you that "the hydrochloric acid spillt over" is a bug report you don't want to get.
00:34:28 <supermop> and a player may select an ai similar to how they select a newgrf
00:34:47 <supermop> so i see the ! and think, why is my AI broken
00:35:03 <supermop> how do firs steel mills work?
00:35:11 <Samu> broken AI is a red square
00:35:33 <supermop> but ! says broken more than red
00:35:56 <supermop> i would say use a human image?
00:36:00 <Samu> green is a living AI, active and not dead( at least yet )
00:36:44 <supermop> if i deliver scrap, coal, and ore simultaneously every month, do i get 8t per 8t of each?
00:37:06 <Samu> ok, will try to find a human image somewhere
00:37:23 <supermop> or just some % more?
00:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the ratios add up to 8/8
00:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> (it's still multiplied by your station rating at the end)
00:38:54 <supermop> if i deliver 8t coal, 8t ore, and 8t scrap on the same train, the mill makes 24t steel?
00:39:31 <supermop> i never knew this for sure because the window just says "steps up"
00:39:51 <Samu> ok, will make it more familiar to NewGRF, but I barely configure NewGRFs
00:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> don't tell andy. he'll shuffle around the texts again and will never be satisfied by the result
00:40:26 <supermop> or shuffle it to make it even more mysterious?
00:40:32 <Samu> human company = find a human face somewhere
00:41:22 <Samu> AI that will start soon = orange square in-game, blue square in main menu?
00:41:41 <Samu> AI that can't start due to max no competitors = grey square ?
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12:46:04 <Wolf01> mmmh usb-c cables cost more than hdmi ones
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13:17:00 <Samu> I generated a map with the same seed with the 3 different tree algorithm.
13:17:23 <Samu> tree_placer = 0.sav // 4,21 MB (4.419.608 bytes)
13:17:36 <Samu> tree_placer = 1.sav // 18,7 MB (19.677.544 bytes)
13:17:54 <Samu> tree_placer = 2.sav // 26,9 MB (28.269.848 bytes)
13:18:14 <Samu> 0 is none, 1 is original, 2 is improved
13:18:34 <Samu> the improved is generating larger saves
13:20:15 <V453000> probably simply before it has more trees?
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13:21:42 <Samu> yes, there seems to be more tree density with improved
13:24:01 <Samu> but the trees are placed in the same tiles
13:26:12 <Samu> there really is more tiles with trees with improved
13:28:02 <peter1138> still obsessing about that?
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13:28:17 <peter1138> we could disable compression
13:28:25 <peter1138> then it wouldn't affect file size
13:29:34 <Samu> major noticeable difference is on snow
13:29:53 <Samu> improved plants much more tiles with trees
13:30:47 <Samu> it is incredibly dense on snow
13:31:19 <peter1138> an option that changes how trees are planted changes how trees are planted. surprise!
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13:43:09 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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14:32:44 <Samu> i improved my code a bit
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14:32:57 <Samu> the question is... it's repeated
14:33:57 <Samu> lines 5-28 are repeated exactly equally in lines 46-69
14:34:21 <Samu> how do I avoid calculating the values for both widgets?
14:35:51 <Samu> i only wanted to calculate those values once
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16:05:29 <supermop> so the thicker monorail track i printed is too wide for my brass monorail to run on, the the plastic one runs fine
16:10:34 <sim-al2> How much track is it? I suppose the brass monorail can't be modified too easily
16:10:49 <supermop> this track is about 50 mm long
16:11:15 <supermop> the original track i had was 2 mm wide, this one is 2.5
16:12:10 <supermop> i wanted wider flanges top and bottom to insure train wouldn't fall off if turned upside down even if had worn down a bit
16:12:19 <sim-al2> ...how big is the monorail? That's pretty tiny
16:12:37 <supermop> as this 50mm track is for a bracelet
16:12:59 <supermop> 10mm for cars, 12mm for cab cars, 5mm for the bellows connecting cars
16:14:54 <supermop> new bellows, intermediate cars, and new track not made public yet want to work some things out
16:15:39 <supermop> also not planning to really sell on shapeways, as it isn't suited to finished pieces comprised of multiple components
16:16:07 <supermop> or at least it doesn't have a way to have a product that is a set of multiple models
16:18:45 <supermop> also i've found that the small rings i am using to connect the track to the chain of a bracelet or necklace do not block the train from sliding off the end so need a buffer attachment
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16:21:58 <supermop> also.. i don't know who the market possibly is for this jewelry beyond my mom, with whom i have a 20 year running inside joke about monorails
16:22:51 <sim-al2> Ahhh, the dimensions make a lot more sense now. I thought you were making the world's smallest model train layout for a second
16:23:25 <supermop> sim-al2: well i thought bout that now because i wont make more than a couple as jewelry:
16:23:30 <sim-al2> Making Z-gauge look huge :p
16:24:14 <supermop> it would be very easy to make an assortment of modular track that snaps together
16:25:18 <supermop> but the price is too high with 3d printing to be a viable toy, and the monorails are too abstract to be a complement to some t or z layout
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16:29:37 <supermop> if i reworked to z scale or n could put motors in etc, but i am really going for something whimsical here not a model
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16:46:08 <Alberth> just home, all day hacking C code :)
16:46:35 <Alberth> gets a bit boring after a few weeks :p
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17:31:10 <Alberth> that's probably a good thing :)
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18:38:53 <frosch123> SpComb: where is spbot? :)
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19:01:54 <Samu> does it seem easier now?
19:02:34 <supermop> still dont get the !
19:02:42 <supermop> why is a human company bad?
19:02:45 <Samu> i know, i dont have a substitute
19:03:01 <Samu> imagine that image is a human face or something similar
19:03:11 <Samu> and that the newspaper is your dice
19:03:25 <supermop> oh god i read that e as a k
19:04:27 <supermop> anyway, i don't fully understand what info you want to convey so it is hard to precisely say what should be changed
19:04:42 <supermop> rg what does your patch attempt to accomplish and why
19:04:45 <Samu> i used smillies this time
19:05:00 <Samu> smillies to describe if the AIs are alive, dead or yet to start
19:05:16 <supermop> ok, what is the use case for this
19:05:55 <Samu> yellow smile is an AI yet to start, given the max no competitor value
19:06:05 <SpComb> 20:01 -!- Irssi: Reconnecting to irc.oftc.net [109.74.200.93] port 6697 - use /RMRECONNS to abort
19:06:08 <SpComb> 20:01 -!- Irssi: warning Could not verify SSL servers certificate: unable to get local issuer certificate
19:06:09 <supermop> i e who is this information most useful to, and how will they act on it
19:06:45 <Samu> it's useful for whoever wants to configure AI or GS scripts
19:06:51 <supermop> i just don't use AIs enough to know wht the normal info usage is
19:07:34 <Samu> the numbers 1 to 15 are the company ID numbers where that script will start a company
19:08:17 <Samu> the trouble here is that AI's can only start on companies which are not occupied by a human
19:08:45 <Samu> and i think it's important to know where would the "yet to start" AIs would pop
19:09:18 <Samu> a company can be started by either a Human player or an AI
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19:10:56 <Samu> you configure a script to start on that company id number, but if a human starts first before the AI, the config of that company won't start.
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19:11:46 <Samu> but a human company can also die, autoclean or such, then that slot becomes available again for the next AI that is yet to start
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19:13:03 <Alberth> too bad sound is dead at my machine currently
19:13:38 <andythenorth> that’s a milestone
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19:14:00 <Alberth> firs frontpage news :)
19:14:14 <andythenorth> I don’t have patience for videos :P
19:14:18 <andythenorth> I need it on 2x speed
19:19:52 <frosch123> it raises the issue that someone needs to pronounce FIRS somehow :)
19:21:35 <Flygon_> I just assumed it was pronounced like how furries call themselves furs
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19:21:52 <Flygon> Of course, the difference being that FIRS has no creepy-ass fursuit factories
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19:23:26 <andythenorth> it’s furs, definitely :)
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19:29:08 <Samu> think i'm ready to post a patch
19:29:49 <Samu> hard to explain how everything interacts
19:30:00 <Samu> becomes easy if you can actually interact with it
19:32:11 <Samu> omg i can't believe what i've done t.t
19:32:25 <Samu> big mistake, lost everything I worked on
19:34:39 <Samu> oh no damn... damn what can I do now to revert?
19:34:46 <andythenorth> you have version control?
19:34:57 <Samu> i went to svn and reverted all changes
19:35:05 <Samu> is it possible to undo the revert?
19:35:08 <andythenorth> since your last commit?
19:35:23 <andythenorth> some version control leaves .orig files around when reverting
19:35:30 <andythenorth> depends on the vcs and the configuration
19:36:00 <andythenorth> if you have the files around in your editor, sometimes you can also use undo or history in the editor
19:36:10 <V453000> nice, I like how he calls newgrfs mods XD
19:36:18 <Samu> nope, i was stupid enough to close it
19:36:29 <Samu> i re-opened after doing the revert on svn
19:36:31 <andythenorth> .orig files on the filesystem?
19:39:09 <Samu> i'm sad, almost like crying
19:39:11 <SpComb> so, tell me how to insert some lines from a file into the beginning of this logfile, where another process is currently appending to that logfile
19:39:36 <Samu> what was on my head to make such mistake
19:40:08 <Samu> i was gonna create a patch, and for some reason I first reverted the trunk folder
19:40:34 <Samu> with no patch created, everything is gone :(
19:40:52 <SpComb> `hg revert` creates .orig files, dunno about svn
19:45:43 <Samu> ah, think i recovered it
19:45:51 <Samu> it sent the files to recycle bin
19:46:00 <Samu> went to recycle bin and restored them all
19:46:07 <Samu> let's hope this is enough
19:46:51 <Samu> oh gosh, what a relief, ufff
19:47:23 <SpComb> yeah, seems TortoiseSVN does that
19:49:17 <andythenorth> small, frequent atomic commits ;)
19:49:30 <andythenorth> or an aggressive filesystem backup system
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19:49:59 <Samu> i don't usually care what's in the recycle bin, but this time
20:07:52 <Alberth> the problem with guis, it'sdoesn't make very clear what buttons are deadly, and what buttons are safe
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21:03:04 <supermop> andythenorth: paused video at 19 sec after hearing open T T D and F I R S spoken out
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21:04:45 <supermop> why use z base in a video to show off FIRS....?
21:06:45 <andythenorth> I’m just happy to have a video :D
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21:10:51 <supermop> the industries that reuse baseset sprites do not do well under this
21:12:51 <_dp_> what's wrong with open T T D?
21:13:39 <supermop> _dp_: i dont think in 10 years i've actually ever heard someone speak the name out loud - so sounds quite strange
21:16:21 <supermop> "get back in the depot train!"
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21:34:50 <andythenorth> supermop: no they do not :)
21:35:11 <supermop> the magnanese mine would make a nice coal mine
21:35:21 <supermop> unless you want an open pit
21:35:23 <Supercheese> that's a great video
21:35:35 <Supercheese> really makes me want to try the new economy
21:35:57 <supermop> Supercheese: in a hot country is great
21:36:31 * Supercheese begins to update grfs
21:37:10 <supermop> haven't spent enough time with the other economies yet but the new steel mill is pretty
21:37:39 <supermop> basically everything that isn't a base set industry looks great
21:38:36 <supermop> andythenorth: no outbuildings on cobble chips tiles
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21:46:03 <NGC3982> I'm getting connection failed from my supybot when i'm trying to apconnect to my local game. The host is 127.0.0.1 (same machine), the admin port is forwarded and correctly set on both router, openttd and config file.
21:46:07 <NGC3982> Where else can i look?
21:46:43 <andythenorth> supermop: eh? you mean in chips? ;)
21:46:49 <NGC3982> It has been a while since.
21:47:42 <supermop> i dont know that they need any
21:49:53 <andythenorth> they are mostly on paving slabs
21:50:01 <andythenorth> I just choose to overlook any incronguity :)
21:50:10 <andythenorth> CHIPS doesn’t aim for complete coverage ;)
21:51:08 <supermop> but the other types have various tipples or warehouses or sheds, thought the cobble ones looked a bit lonely
21:52:04 <andythenorth> could take the stone warehouse from textile mill
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21:56:26 <supermop> shed from trading post, or long kiln from brickworks minus chimney too
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22:07:52 <Samu> original topic description is outdated
22:41:23 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: does you magic make trains tilt? does anyone else have similar magic?
22:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not implemented tilting trains
22:42:03 <supermop> tilting turbotrains would be a nice bit of polish for ogfx+
22:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> although it should be fairly straight forward to add
22:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think some GRFs had tilting graphics
22:42:41 <supermop> also, i wonder if i can lobby andy to add tilt to iron horse for one train
22:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, ask George :p
22:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> tilting needs considerably less magic than i do
22:45:44 <supermop> monorails should tilt
22:46:10 <supermop> given the conceptual space they occupy in my roster
22:46:44 <Eddi|zuHause> also note the tilt flag for trains which gives a boost to curve speed
22:47:18 <supermop> not that monorails do tilt, but that ceonceivably a monorail could be built with steeply banked rails if needed
22:51:29 <supermop> polishing up ogfx+ trains could be fun
22:53:20 <supermop> seems to be fairly well used, clearly defined concept, and well suited to piecemeal bits of work
22:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i think monorails already do get a speed boost in curves compared to conventional
22:54:21 <supermop> ah well my work is done then!
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23:09:00 <supermop> doesn't seem to make sense to supply FIRS temperate clay pits with supplies
23:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> why? sure they also need excavation equipment and fuel?
23:10:29 <supermop> one pit on it's own will generally produce enough clay to get a bulk terminal to gung-ho even if the terminal has nothing else supplied
23:11:04 <supermop> so unless i plan on building 4 terminals for each pit on the map
23:11:28 <supermop> that extra clay is just going to clog up my network
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23:24:19 <SpComb> including the missing parts
23:24:39 <SpComb> just had to wait until midnight for the logfile to rollover and fix the 2016-05-10 one :P
23:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: thanks :)
23:25:28 <supermop> now to decide which industries the glass works and the metal workshop will supply, or, if i will just dump all mnsp at a central yard and let cargodist sort it out
23:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> reports from a way too small set of people show that cargodist does a poor job at this
23:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a cargodist mode for one-source-to-many-destinations which supplies each destination equally
23:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> which involves basically two things: 1) a finer creation of destinations other than one-per-cargo-package, and 2) a flat demand function independent of distance and stuff
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23:29:57 <supermop> otherwise going to have milk in cans, but fish and meat in bottles
23:31:06 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: typically i avoid the "distribution yard" method for that, and rely on the fact that industries will split their production across two stations if both are similarly served
23:31:34 <supermop> and one station then serves "near" destinations, and one serves "far" destination
23:32:30 <supermop> as long and the spokes of those distribution networks have about equal frequency and capacity it seems to work ok
23:33:27 <supermop> and if the producer of supplies if making roughly 150%+ the total 'need' for supplies i rarely have one industry not get boosted
23:34:36 <supermop> but i'll often have industries that hover right around the border between double and quadruple production for years until the system gets flooded with large surplus of supplies
23:35:15 <supermop> i wonder though - i haven't tested this much, to what extend the default 16 day cycles in cargodist are really affecting me
23:36:05 <supermop> small networks with trucks running every 10-20 days seem to do fine
23:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever touched that setting
23:37:09 <supermop> but mines that see a train every 45 days seem like they would still easily get enough supplies every 90 days,
23:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's rather meant for if you have performance trouble
23:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't make the distribution any better or worse, it might just be slower to react to changes
23:37:48 <supermop> but sometimes they dont, and i wonder if it is due to cd sending less cargo along those high bandwidth but high latency routes
23:38:00 <supermop> must be all in my head then
23:40:30 <FLHerne> I've been using the "mix it up, let CDist sort it out" method with supplies for a while
23:40:53 <Samu> i hate slot 1 in main menu ...
23:41:01 <supermop> like, i worry that cd will forget a supply route that runs only 1-4 times per year
23:41:04 <Samu> that invisible human player always ruining something :o
23:41:09 <FLHerne> Definitely discourages the standard tactic of dumping everything on one industry of each type, because then the distance function causes trouble
23:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: cargodist should not "forget" lines
23:42:22 <FLHerne> supermop: Isn't that too low anyway, unless you have higher-frequency feeders later?
23:43:38 <supermop> i want to serve remote areas by dumping a train or shipload at some transfer station or outpost every few months, and then have trucks or NG trains etc feed it over to the industry
23:45:46 <Samu> how do I get rid of that invisible human company in the main menu? I'd like to avoid writing code to deal with it :(
23:48:19 <Samu> just launch openttd, open console, type companies
23:48:32 <Samu> there it is, the annoying invisible human comp
23:54:24 <supermop> for manufacturing supplies though sometimes i will have a yard where trains deliver both materials and supplies, and then a composite train takes both cargoes to the industry, ensuring the supplies are always delivered at same time as material
23:54:55 <supermop> makes for nice looking trains with a mix of cars too
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