IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-09
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00:06:32 <V453000> but if someone did, the author would definitely ask for it to be put down
00:06:35 <V453000> he is a complete asshole
00:09:08 <Samu> hey, who's in charge of zoomed sprites?
00:10:26 <Samu> this sprite SPR_UNREAD_NEWS
00:10:34 <ST2> zoomed in or zoomed out? ^^
00:10:47 <Samu> the newspaper isn't painted as white t.t
00:11:07 <Samu> in 2x mode, it's not painted in white
00:13:01 <Samu> i am re-using it for the random ai script
00:13:17 <Samu> but it's drawing it with a transparent color instead of white
00:14:40 <Samu> i've been busy with this stuff
00:15:13 <ST2> me too... making our servers to use FIRS 2 (2.1.0) and YETI (0.1.1)
00:15:32 <ST2> all good now... but required a bunch of changes on GS's we use :S
00:16:00 <ST2> and I want to congratulate people envolved on FIRS 2 anf YETI
00:16:19 <ST2> awesome job... that players enjoy :)
00:16:37 <Samu> i'm not too fond of NewGRF's
00:17:06 <ST2> as you know, I'm part of a community that runs a bunch of servers
00:43:42 <ST2> one is CV (Company Value) and another CB (City Builder)
00:44:02 <ST2> nop (nonsense on CB goals)
00:44:11 <ST2> and our CV only have 4 towns :S
00:44:39 <ST2> but we're thinking on create 1 (or 2) with cargodist enabled
00:44:52 <ST2> kinda hard since we have mostly goal servers
00:45:21 <Samu> i'd like to try cargo dist
00:46:05 <ST2> we don't use it because of the server goals we have
00:46:42 <supermop_> ST2: my problem with no cd even on a goal server is i end up with stupid looking passenger networks
00:46:42 <ST2> but that dnt low how interesting cargodist is... only dnt fit on our current settings ^^
00:47:20 <supermop_> also cd is useful for distributing supplies
00:48:01 <ST2> supermop, we use some GS's that require deliver pax and other cargo types to specific places
00:48:23 <ST2> cargodist dnt fit, at all, on that scenario
00:48:25 <supermop_> seems to me a GS should grow cities based on how well connected they are rather than just total cargo delivered
00:48:35 <Montana> it is? i have never used cargosti for no-pax,
00:49:13 <Montana> i think neighbor city grow or somethinkg like that is the script you need
00:49:13 <supermop_> the central nodes of a network should grow more than the edges
00:50:05 <ST2> supermop_, that can be good for games without specific goals
00:50:14 <supermop_> Montana: no that just makes your city not grow and small towns grow more, so all towns trend towards mean size of population in region
00:50:16 <ST2> we have a BusyBee server running
00:50:24 <ST2> how you fit cargodist there?
00:51:11 <supermop_> in busy bee i dont end up with networks, because disconnected point to point is encouraged
00:51:35 <ST2> aka, all depends on server goals
00:51:39 <supermop_> so it doesnt matter if dist is on or off, effect is the same
00:51:47 <Montana> sorry, how can you make a reference to a person in the cha? im pretty new in IRC
00:52:37 <supermop_> and for passenger goals, i find they are easily met even with cargo dist on,
00:52:38 <ST2> if a BB goal is deliver XX passengers to a place... no need to deliver back, so cargodist is useless
00:52:53 <supermop_> ST2: but cargo dist doesnt hurt
00:53:31 <Montana> that depens if you put cargo dist in symetric or asymetric
00:53:47 <ST2> anyway supermop, give a try on BTPro server 33 (closest to BB ^^)
00:54:15 <ST2> if you continue sayinf cargodist does any good on it... we could try
00:54:29 <supermop_> ST2: if i am strictly dumping passengers in one town, then my trains are returning empty, and the capacity of my line is very inefficient
00:55:12 <ST2> as I said, some server goals dnt require efficient networks... ONLY requires you get to the goal
00:55:42 <ST2> ofc, pax back is good for profit
00:55:58 <ST2> but NOT needed to achive any BB goal, for example
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00:59:34 <supermop_> i wish there was a goal that was based on measurement of network
00:59:56 <ST2> if that possible to measure... I would like too ;)
01:00:03 <supermop_> for example, outbound capacity from a certain town or factory
01:00:41 <ST2> we have couple servers where the goal could handle cargodist ON - example, our servers #31 and #9
01:01:00 <ST2> but that must be discussed among our community admins team
01:01:14 <supermop_> ie can goods from this factory reach >70% of towns on map, can passengers from this town visit any town on the map, etc
01:02:13 <supermop_> i am going to step outside for a bit, maybe ill try one of your servers tonight!
01:02:27 <ST2> that's basically a "stations rating" server
01:03:01 <ST2> suggestions are always welcome - even that on some goal servers... aren't :S
01:04:26 <ST2> not fails... simply dnt send/query it xD
01:05:46 <Montana_> its weird you use toyland climate in bussybee server
01:05:47 <ST2> due our server controller and BB highly changed GS
01:06:27 <ST2> Montana_, login and do !voterestart
01:07:02 <Montana_> are not 30 goals many goals? how much time do people spend in achieving them?
01:07:47 <ST2> you can see climates used and time
01:09:03 <ST2> and ofc, the 15th best times per climate
01:12:05 <Montana_> i think the most important data is score/hour
01:12:10 <ST2> the original BB GS dnt cover a specifi goal limit - we add it because our server controller software allows it
01:12:17 <Montana_> it measures how effective is a player on a server
01:12:25 <ST2> well, after I created a plugin for it
01:12:56 <ST2> because impossible to make specific goal based on GS only
01:13:48 <ST2> Montana_, some players start with biggest goals, to make profit too
01:14:00 <ST2> and take the easiest one later
01:14:09 <ST2> other players do the opposite
01:14:17 <ST2> hard to measure effiency ^^
01:15:53 <Montana_> true, but always there is an optimal way to do that
01:16:15 <ST2> ofc, on points servers point calculation we take what admin port provides: ratings, number of stations, vehicles, etc etc
01:19:05 <ST2> but OpenTTD admin port sends few info.... and only quarterly
01:19:39 <ST2> so, we change GS's to send info directly to our server controller
01:20:31 <ST2> well, we dnt release the changes because are useless without server controllers
01:21:00 <Montana_> what do you mean with server controller?
01:21:21 <ST2> the software that controll the servers
01:21:36 <ST2> example, reddit uses Soap
01:23:24 <Montana_> do you need a IRC chat for make that Soap or autopilot work?
01:23:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
01:23:39 <Montana_> a own channel on IRC i mean
01:23:50 <ST2> guess so - I'm not used with Soap ^^
01:24:07 <ST2> in BTPro website, join our IRC
01:24:46 <ST2> IRC info is under Contact Us
01:26:55 <Montana_> i did, but noboyd is online
01:27:40 <ST2> among many other people xD
01:28:44 <ST2> Server: hub.irc.x-base.org
01:29:31 <Montana_> i have not any IRC client, I chat by my browser
01:29:37 <Montana_> do i need one of them?
01:30:12 <ST2> a dedicated IRC client is always the best ^^
01:48:27 <supermop_> had some good xian noodles, but now i want ice cream
01:49:09 <ST2> well, what was 1st doesn't matter... because ice cream fits well with everything xD
01:50:07 <supermop_> how do i get registered for your servers?
01:50:37 <ST2> you can play without being registered
01:51:06 <ST2> registered players will get community points, can restart maps, among other stuff ^^
01:51:53 <ST2> if registering... always check SPAM folder for activation email ^^
01:52:55 <ST2> and do as Montana, join our IRC channels - Montana's getting crazy with it xD
01:55:21 <Montana_> i knew you had interconnected servers, but not to at htat level
01:56:10 <ST2> servers channel at peak hours... it's a spam one ^^
01:56:36 <ST2> but it's how we, admins, controll them xD
01:58:36 <ST2> 1 of the best tools ever:
01:58:37 <ST2> [00:56:57] * +ttd-srv12 * !! Marvax Transports (5/Red) had a crash (vehicle ID 487: train collision at 0x57E09).
01:58:37 <ST2> [00:56:57] * +ttd-srv12 * !! Marvax Transports (5/Red) had a crash (vehicle ID 800: train collision at 0x58A09).
01:58:37 <ST2> [00:57:12] <~ST2> 12screen 0x58A09
01:58:37 <ST2> [00:57:51] * +ttd-srv12 * <--- Linezoho (#391/81.67.25.134/5 (Red)/FR) has left the game (leaving)
01:59:02 <ST2> we can see what happns without enter the server ^^
01:59:30 <ST2> very helpfull when it's a RV's crash by train
02:00:09 <ST2> sometimes it's a natural accident
02:00:17 <ST2> other times are trollers :(
02:00:32 <ST2> but admins there can act fast ^^
02:01:11 <ST2> anyway, that's why BTPro is known as a safe place to play... since respecting server rules xD
02:03:02 <ST2> and about that, taking OpenTTDcoop - BTPro, n-ice and CityMania, are safe places
02:03:35 <ST2> reddit servers are war zones sometimes... despite that few admins there try their best
02:04:34 <ST2> but we, BTPro, n-ice and CityMania, only have goal servers
02:05:40 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
02:07:08 <Montana_> i have a server too, but not competitive at all; iwill try to put some goals to it via script, but i have not much free time :P
02:07:09 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
02:07:15 <Flygon> Uhm, wait, you're currently talking
02:07:46 <Montana_> whye is there a "_" on the right of my nam?e
02:08:23 <ST2> you lost connection and joined as an alternative nick
02:08:40 <Flygon> Alternatively, you grew a tail
02:08:55 <Flygon> Prepare to be uncomfortable in car seats
02:10:34 <ST2> Montana_, to see how Soap works, type /join /r/openttd
02:11:23 <ST2> Montana_, to see how Soap works, type /join #/r/openttd
02:29:10 <supermop_> hmm its 1904 and now finally have some 40kmh trams, but all these 20kmh trams are still perfectly good
02:29:51 <supermop_> nowhere to cascade them to that is reasonably reachable by tramway
02:30:30 <supermop_> unless i build a 160 tile long cross country tram line and have them take a few years to drive over there
02:32:04 <supermop_> this is why i liked the model train like parts of locomotion - you could 'pick up' a train or tram off its track and set it down somewhere else
02:32:26 <Flygon> ...2CC has 40km/h Trams in 1904?
02:33:10 <supermop_> the kolkata tram is the first to be worth reworking an already timetabled service though
02:34:09 <supermop_> i was using the richmond sprague tram which holds 80ish people and does 20kmh, and the few other 30 and 40kmh trams hold far fewer until now
02:34:56 *** Montana has joined #openttd
02:35:27 <supermop_> so on one line i have those guys parking in the depot once they finish their run, while a kolkata tram makes a test run to see how it's dwell times and travel times work out with the network
02:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just edit the timetable manually ticking off 1 day from each travel time, then see the late counter
02:36:28 <supermop_> was gettting pretty good service as is, so i will probably replace with fewer total trams, leaving 10 of these ~12yo trams surplus to requirements
02:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm usually only replacing trams when they get old
02:37:10 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: it's twice as fast so i imagine ill save more than 1 day each leg: 20kmh is painfully slow
02:38:49 <supermop_> normally i also let trams run out their natural life to avoid messing up the interference of different lines, but i just extended the south terminus about 8 tiles to a new station in a newly grown neighborhood
02:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "real" trams still only go like 20km/h in city centers where they share access with other traffic
02:39:02 <supermop_> so i have to re-timetable anyway
02:39:31 <supermop_> somehow no one in this 1900s town owns a horse so trams can haul ass
02:40:33 <supermop_> about 5 years ago i extended the line north but ws running that segment as a shuttle service to avoid re-doing the schedule
02:42:12 <supermop_> also accounting for getting stuck behind freight, my cross country trams now make worse time to the north coast than my new 45kmh steamships
02:43:43 <supermop_> speaking of which, i think it's time to cascade this 32kmh paddle boat to a more provincial route
02:48:15 <supermop_> wish i could ship the trams to the other coast
02:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> add a "teleport" button to depots?
02:49:48 <supermop_> sure - lose all the cargo onboard and maybe pay a fee
02:50:08 <supermop_> or something like has a pool of "used" sold vehicles
02:50:36 <supermop_> so if i sell a bunch of kirby pauls in town x
02:51:01 <supermop_> myself, or a competitor, can get a deal on gently used kirbys in town y
02:51:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i was almost gonna try to implement that once. maybe
02:52:34 <supermop_> i mean we already suspend disbelief that the train manufacturer can instantly deliver you a shiny new ICE to a remote mountaintop depot inaccessible by rail, road, or sea
02:53:15 <supermop_> so it's not like it's that "unrealistic" to ship a train that thaat at least already exists on the map
02:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there were already AIs that sent trains to depot and sold them after delivery, and bought a new one at the pickup station, instead of waiting for a return trip
02:55:01 <supermop_> could even maybe have a feature like they used to have in gran tourismo, where maybe a couple crappy used locomotives and stock are seeded into the pool at game start
02:56:15 <supermop_> 2cc set would be more fun and less overwhelming if you only could buy locomotives from your selected region, but occasionally a rare foreign one would be available 2nd hand
02:56:30 <supermop_> "OpenTTD: Train Colector"
02:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you get that implemented in a reasonable way
02:57:13 <supermop_> also, "fun" might be a bit of a stretch in my usage above
02:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i understood "fun" like in "Sheldon Coopers's Fun with Flags"
02:59:41 <supermop_> sometimes, i will try to limit myself to as few depots as possible though, and cascade or deliver trains by sending them through various sidings, freight lines, and non-revenue track to reach some distant part of the network
03:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that makes no sense for trams
03:00:17 <supermop_> tramways do not really work for that
03:00:48 <supermop_> also, even in melbourne, i often saw trams being driven around on flatbed trucks
03:02:08 <supermop_> now in 1904, it's not reasonable that i would have road nor trucks suited to carrying a tram across country, but i do have ships and trains
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03:05:32 <supermop_> right now i'd need to parallel my longest mainline with tramway to get these guys to the town that could best use them
03:06:07 <supermop_> also 15 years in and i still need to be really careful with money - testament to good newgrf set up?
03:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> some tram depots have (or had) a rail connection, so trams could be delivered by train
03:07:14 *** Montana_ is now known as Montana
03:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is a way to balance the game...
03:08:09 <supermop_> firs 2 in a hot country, with antelope, feels balanced at this point in th game
03:08:37 <supermop_> also, i am not using .se or japanese houses, so not making billions off of passengers yet
03:09:49 <supermop_> i guess i will replace this suburban fringe route served by a single 12 passenger steam bus with 10x 80 passenger trams
03:10:32 <supermop_> just involves sending the trams across a 4 track level crossing on my busiest stretch of rail
03:10:53 <ST2> supermop_: please, play on some online OpenTTD communities: and I'll say, with goals ingame: you can grab, BTPro, n-ice or Citymania: this means ~50% of OpenTTD players
03:11:31 <ST2> Openttdcoop can be considered as a playground for track layout geeks, and I respect that
03:13:14 <ST2> because the rest are online servers because couple friends play online
03:13:41 <ST2> please... give some respect to the communities that make this game alive
03:14:37 <supermop_> ST2: i am not sure my navel-gazing style of play is best suited to most of these servers, but i sometimes am on a citybuilder server while i am at work and have it running in the background
03:14:40 <ST2> I respect all devs work, newgrf's and GS's makers
03:15:19 <ST2> when someone dnt like what's online, starts a new community
03:15:24 <supermop_> i can't really keep up when they are busy though because i maybe able spending only a few minutes per hours building new lines
03:16:47 <ST2> among our server machines, we have a Factorio server running
03:17:04 <ST2> and it's like that: it's 1 map... don't like, dnt play
03:18:05 <supermop_> hmm digging a tram tunnel to other side of town seems like a big infrastructure investment just to get these trams to the other side of the tracks
03:19:03 <ST2> supermop_, do you use a client that can show Cycle skips? talking about CB ^^
03:19:23 <supermop_> no idea what that is ST2
03:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: just stop the trains for a second?
03:20:29 <ST2> BTPro client, n-ice client, Citymania client, all "hacking" revision to be compatible with 1.6.0 (now)
03:21:06 <ST2> but all devs know what's a cycle skip
03:22:00 <ST2> weird to someone defend so hard cargodist when dnt even knows what's a town cycle skip
03:22:04 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: timetable too tight, took me 18 months in game to get the scheduling correct, and each of these trams will probably take 7 days to make it across
03:22:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (i feel like i'm missing half of a conversation. none of what ST1 says makes any sense)
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03:22:51 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: normal, I moved my pc to home, and was a continuations of talks with supermop_ ^^
03:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: play frogger with each tram :p
03:24:02 <supermop_> ST2: my typical goal when i play is that it be reasonably possible that any passenger could conceivably buy a ticket to any station on the network
03:24:26 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: basically I was saying to supermop_ that BTPro community runs 28 servers and wanted him to show where cargodist could e a gameplay enhance
03:24:55 <ST2> ~but show ingame, not theorethical ^^
03:25:08 <supermop_> a train that runs through 4 towns, and at each town every passenger gets off and new passengers get on
03:25:09 <Montana> i didnt know was cycle skip(if i really know what are you saying) till i downloaded some of these clients
03:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the connection...
03:25:26 <supermop_> that seems frustrating to me
03:25:49 <supermop_> in that case you may as well just only build point to point shuttle services
03:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that log is dead.
03:26:02 <ST2> well, I use a bouncer that records stuff... but all stuff must be there ^^
03:26:40 <supermop_> why have a train line that runs 100s or even 1000 tiles, when every passenger travels only to the next town
03:27:06 <ST2> [02:25:10] <Montana> i didnt know was cycle skip(if i really know what are you saying) till i downloaded some of these clients <<--
03:27:37 <Montana> you mean the data that appear in city window?
03:27:38 <supermop_> where i am incentivized to run every train non stop to the furthest station away
03:28:02 <Montana> supermop_:which server are you playing in
03:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: i don't think there's a useful discussion to be had. like trying to answer the question "how would acknowledging evolution help me in my daily life?"
03:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> where there's so many things wrong even with the premise...
03:28:56 <Montana> but thats kinda cheating, in the sense as its showing internal mechanics, which are not shown in vainilla releases
03:29:14 <supermop_> anyway i understand that in a city building server you have to dump every possible passenger in your town,
03:29:30 <supermop_> but i do not find building networks like that to be much fun
03:29:33 <Montana> logic-philosophical discussion here -- that gset exciting XD
03:29:59 <ST2> Montana: cheating is abusing the internal mechanics... knowing them it's N OT
03:30:47 <supermop_> so even when i am chasing cargo goals in busy bee, i often build up a normal passenger network taking advantage of the bits of rail originally built for various goals
03:30:53 <Flygon> Magic Bulldozer is justifable cheating
03:30:58 <Montana> I said "its like cheating". I dont mean its cheating. but you can get and advantage others maybe can not
03:31:21 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: to me this discussion is more like arguing with a lumberjack about raising a bonsai tree
03:31:26 <ST2> supermop_: that's GS stuff... sometimes similar goals appear
03:31:44 <ST2> supermop_: not fault of the game
03:32:03 <supermop_> one person wants a tiny tree that looks nice, one person wants a big tree that provides good lumber
03:32:07 <ST2> I was talking to Montana about show to players GAME info
03:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the game alredy show town growth speed?
03:33:05 <supermop_> neither is really wrong i guess, but i find the bonsai more fun
03:33:17 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, town grows every x days
03:33:31 <supermop_> GS can reveal more info if pertinent
03:33:31 <Montana> but not in the deep some clients do
03:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so what's different then?
03:33:52 <ST2> what doesn'r show is how many cycles are skipped when no spot found to place a new house
03:33:59 <supermop_> i am liking villages is villages gs because it doesn't show any extra data
03:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, like encountered blocked road or something?
03:34:37 <ST2> many stuff can cause a cycle skip for house build
03:34:46 <Montana> It really shows much info, some of them i really dont understand
03:35:03 <ST2> what our "fan client's" show is that skips count
03:35:21 <supermop_> ST2: someone playing the game for 20 years generally would intuit when road layout is hindering growth though ?
03:35:32 <ST2> that means: less CS's, more house, better for CB servers
03:36:09 <ST2> supermop_: what road layout you use for towns?
03:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: you won't believe the number of times i heard "wait, i played this game for <X> years, i never knew <Y>"
03:37:09 <supermop_> usually better roads, sometimes i generate a map where each town chooses a random layout
03:37:11 <ST2> you can check forums at BTPro, n-ice and specially Citymania for it
03:37:33 <ST2> because 3x3 is crap, 2x2 (in all town) is even worst
03:38:20 <supermop_> i would use the grid layouts more, but they are too rigid, and i would appreciate other grid sizes, like 2x4 etc
03:38:50 <ST2> always use spyral (aka swastika)
03:39:32 <supermop_> i try to let towns build on their own, but when i do build for them i usually build various 2xN rectangles, not always aligned
03:39:57 <ST2> ah, build a road = build a house
03:40:13 <ST2> it's on settings, let or not town build roads
03:40:51 <ST2> but, when a town tries to build a road, it's on same loop as to try to build a house
03:41:05 <supermop_> yeah i always let towns build roads, never let them build their own level crossings
03:42:45 <ST2> we (BTPro) currently have easy, medium and hard servers.... all in OpenTTD ground
03:42:45 <supermop_> i find with towns forbidden to build roads, i may come across some town i forgot about for 10 years and now it's a 10x10 dense block of high rises with no outskirts and looks stupid
03:43:49 <ST2> supermop_: personally I think you're like Samu - you both live on distinct worlds ^^
03:45:12 <supermop_> i have no idea what that guy is up to
03:45:27 <ST2> you said you have a server - we have 28, now, and we learn with each of them (logs, errors, etc, etc)
03:46:42 <ST2> and you can see that we test YETI 0.1.1, we have a BB server
03:46:58 <ST2> who else has a BusyBee server online?
03:47:39 <ST2> we are running with FIRS 2.1.0
03:48:50 <ST2> and yes, was tested very hard before made them on our public servers ^^
03:50:25 <supermop_> ST2: i didnt say i have a server
03:50:47 <ST2> you said it earlier ^^ (I think )
03:54:37 <supermop_> i sometimes connect to one, but not my own,
03:55:02 <supermop_> sometimes it is a btpro, sometimes reddit
03:56:06 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: tell me the last game you made, I'll tell mine... agree?
03:56:49 <ST2> and by last game is: start and reach the goal set on there ^^
03:57:41 <ST2> something that was created when 1st game appeared
03:58:35 <ST2> so, Eddi|zuHause: tell me the last game you made, I'll tell mine
03:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what if the goal is to have no goal?
03:59:34 <Flygon> What is the goal is gaol?
04:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to have a screenshot of my last game, but the host server went offline
04:01:15 <ST2> [02:59:38] <Eddi|zuHause> [03:59:04] what if the goal is to have no goal? <<-- really?! for that I go to the bingo, buy a card and leave
04:01:33 <ST2> that's exactly what you said :S
04:01:53 <Flygon> When I go into an OTTD game, I just waanna make a pretty network
04:02:00 <Flygon> Then I'm too lazy to screencap it
04:02:06 <Flygon> And nobody ever sees my work
04:02:24 <ST2> OpenTTD is built with a goal - max perf rating on nyear 2050
04:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: yes, and that is the most stupid goal ever, which is why nobody plays for it
04:02:57 <supermop_> ST2: transport tycoon had that goal
04:03:19 <ST2> not saying we have that goal on our servers ^^
04:03:47 <ST2> only pointing that OpenTTD is a goal server, stupid or not ^^
04:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: when i play a game, it's an open-end find-something-to-do type game
04:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: the end state does not matter, there is not going to be an end.
04:04:14 <supermop_> by the time OpenTTD was started, in TTD and TTDP it had become clear that many people were not quiting their games at 2050
04:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: it just stops when i get bored
04:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or distracted
04:04:48 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: did you evere reached the "open-end find-something-to-do type game" goal?
04:04:59 <ST2> you can start a server with it
04:05:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: that is by definition an unfulfillable goal
04:05:13 <supermop_> ST2: i play a map until i cannot add more to it without it becoming ugly, or until i get bored of it
04:05:21 <ST2> again, start a server with it
04:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i start a server?
04:05:51 <ST2> people who reaches it, will win
04:05:59 <supermop_> if i have 2 weeks of slow time at work, maybe bad weather, not feeling creative, ill run a game continuously in that time
04:06:04 <Flygon> ST2: Why do people play Minecraft?
04:06:22 <Flygon> I'll grab my lunch while you answer that
04:06:27 * Flygon wanders off to the kitchen
04:06:35 <ST2> Flygon: why ppl play AoE2HD
04:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to play that, but i couldn't get it to run on wine
04:07:31 <supermop_> then, if a project comes up, my fiancee and i go out somewhere, i get an idea for something to make, anything that has me doing something else for a few days, ill leave that game and forget abot it
04:07:35 <ST2> still waiting for an online server from Eddi|zuHause
04:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: you should wait here until i reach that goal. do not move anywhere.
04:08:28 <Flygon> Eddi: I can't wait for that open source AoEII engine...
04:08:35 <Flygon> AoEIIHD is too resource hungry
04:08:39 <ST2> so, no server... usually blank shells :S
04:08:43 <Flygon> And the 3D renderer is blurry af
04:09:00 <Flygon> Dunno why they couldn't port over the original softblitter
04:09:46 <ST2> gladly our OpenTTD community had it well... when I say I make something... I do
04:10:22 <supermop_> ST2: playing openttd is a way for me to avoid working towards my goals
04:10:36 <ST2> still waiting for Eddi|zuHause's server
04:14:13 <ST2> but ofc, I usually dnt ask much from who dnt even know the mechanichs where they're admin - I learnt CS's from Nova's (now CM community)
04:15:16 <ST2> and I wan't the first here trying to explaing clycle skipe
04:16:52 <supermop_> ST2: the more the internal mechanics seem obvious, the less interesting the game seems to me
04:17:44 <ST2> supermop_: it's an opensource game... what you want to hide?
04:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: nobody ever knows everything.
04:19:33 <ST2> I can show the players all mechanichs - I never thought something get angry for some communities include them on clients
04:19:54 <supermop_> i dont get angry about it
04:20:04 <supermop_> but think of watching a clock vs watching a puppy
04:20:57 <ST2> supermop_: I think like this: OpenTTD online = real persons
04:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: but if i want to reach a goal, i play a sudoku. i play openttd to watch trains move.
04:21:30 <ST2> I dnt expect a "clock" or a "pupy" playing
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04:22:26 <supermop_> ST2: watching other playing interact witth the map in novel ways has interesting potential
04:22:39 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: exactly: if you like competitive Openttd... play goal servers, if not, as you said... "i play a sudoku"
04:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i ever want to like competitive openttd?
04:23:46 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: check the game fundaments ^^
04:24:15 <supermop_> but doesn't watching 10 other players focused entirely on "solving" the game is like watch 10 fancy clocks - the kind with spinney turbillon
04:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to know the game fundament, i read the source code.
04:24:55 <ST2> and you didn't understood the game fundaments on the game code?
04:25:00 <supermop_> more fun than watching one clock for sure, but 10 puppies jumping around unpredictably is more fun
04:25:48 <supermop_> i think Eddi|zuHause knows the source code more thoroughly than some of the devs
04:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> sure. if that's what you want to believe.
04:27:44 <ST2> I know source code too, I was talking about game itself: even on SP the objective/goal is to compete with opponent compa nies and reach the maxg ratin on 2050
04:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: what if i told you that in 20 years of playing, i never ever reached the year 2050?
04:28:33 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: try starting in 2030
04:28:37 <ST2> and now I ask, Eddi|zuHause, what's OpenTTD goal?
04:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: what's the meaning of life?
04:29:32 <ST2> ok, I'll make it for human reading: Eddi|zuHause, what's OpenTTD goal?
04:30:04 <supermop_> ST2: what is the goal of a model railroad
04:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> vanilla is meaningless without chocolate.
04:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: have you watched the video i linked?
04:30:36 <ST2> ok, I can't talk more of OpenTTD here
04:31:03 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause, have you played OPenTTD at all?
04:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: have you ever studied buddhism?
04:31:16 <supermop_> I just want interesting organically growing towns
04:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: the goal is not to have arrived at the goal. but to travel the way to the goal, whether you arrive or not.
04:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as you arrive at the goal, the goal becomes meaningless
04:32:17 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: it's sad, comming from you...
04:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so better travel without ever arriving
04:33:08 <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: it's sad, even comming from you...
04:37:45 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: now this youtube channel is just autorolling while i mop my kitchen
04:38:34 <Montana> arriving to the goal is the funny thing
04:38:56 <Montana> once you reach it, whye continue playing?
04:51:55 <ST2> ok Eddi, I screwed things up ^^
04:55:53 <ST2> probably you'll edit or reset the post - I dnt mind ^^
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05:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc you can delete your post when nobody answered yet
05:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> also, how or why would i edit other people's posts?
05:01:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not a moderator, and even if i were, only offensive posts would need moderating...
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10:23:59 <Flygon> These EMUs have decent tractive effort but holy crap the horsepower sucks :D
10:24:44 <Wolf01> that's why you shouldn't put unpowered wagons but only other EMUs :P
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12:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and another thread "derailed"... :/
13:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> also, lately there seem to be an influx of bots who just reply something meaningless like "that is a very good point" onto random threads
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14:25:12 <Samu> give me suggestions for a function name which description is: Will the AI config in the given company slot be starting soon?
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15:15:24 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: nice to see polite bots i guess
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15:35:08 <Samu> is that even a word? startable?
15:43:09 <Samu> IsStartingSoon? WillStart? CanStart?
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15:43:41 <Samu> in openttd code style, how should I name this function?
15:44:20 <Samu> Will the AI config in the given company slot be starting soon?
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16:40:40 <supermop> V453000: you inspired/provoked me into writing way to much on graphic design criticism and theory
16:43:16 <supermop> personally i feel like starting with and then over analyzing you work in the UI first is a great way to kill your motivation
16:44:33 <V453000> it's a part of graphic design in general imo, you always need to be able to tell at which point are your thoughts reasonable and at which point are you obsessed with the topic
16:44:40 <V453000> it is unavoidable problem
16:45:02 <V453000> we can be chasing details in factorio forever
16:46:14 <Alberth> better chase critters, isn't it?
16:46:37 <V453000> well those are in infinite world and numbers :P
16:46:55 <Alberth> definitely forever thus :p
16:47:12 <supermop> at first i thought his guy icon was supposed to be Obama, because of the oddly explicitly drawn cheekbones and haircut
16:47:58 <supermop> and I guess Obama is a better icon of executive power than some random bald guy
16:48:28 <supermop> but more I look at it I feel that's just a coincidence
16:49:02 <V453000> I should try to make my own set of icons in order to stop bullshitting around and show actual example
16:52:44 <supermop> idk, i've never had that much of a problem with any icons, even those i consider bad design
16:53:57 <supermop> or rather i would suggest someone start with the 'fun' stuff - little houses and trains you can then see growing and running in game to keep you motivated
16:55:17 <supermop> If i was focused entirely on a better pause button i'd just keep iterating that until i got burnt out on it
16:55:30 <Samu> hmm im not entirely happy about that warning sign
16:55:47 <supermop> what does it mean? that something is broken?
16:55:52 <V453000> yeah, that's where you need to identify your obsession at correct time supermop :P
16:56:03 <Samu> it means that's a human player
16:56:24 <Samu> if you start a game, that slot is immediately taken by a human player
16:57:08 <supermop> then why does it have an ai in it?
16:57:37 <Samu> because the human company can die, leave game, go to spectator, bankrupt, then the ai can start
17:00:36 <supermop> do servers have AI players
17:02:12 <supermop> seems like so many of the servers have some kind of competitive goal running, and AIs wouldn't know how to compete with that
17:02:45 <Samu> that newspaper icon is supposed to tell you that AI was a randomly chosen AI
17:03:21 <supermop> nonetheless I guess philosophically AIs should be able to do whatever a human player can
17:04:02 <supermop> Samu: maybe dice is better than a newspaper - what does news have to do with random>?
17:04:21 <Samu> there is no dice, or i don't know if there's one
17:04:24 <Alberth> news is not random? :p
17:04:42 <supermop> there are dice emoji
17:04:54 <supermop> patch openttd to support emoji
17:05:07 <Alberth> make a sprite with dice
17:05:10 <supermop> or draw a die icon/glyph
17:05:39 <supermop> at that size in monochrome might take 10 minutes, if you don't get lost in navel gazing like I do
17:06:26 <Alberth> monochrone gives you only two options, not much choice to consider for each pixel :)
17:06:27 <V453000> AIs are pointless shit that just makes clutter on the map and wrecks player
17:06:37 <V453000> I see zero reason to make an AI
17:07:24 <supermop> how many px square do you want it to be i'll draw you one to throw in as an addition to base set, i guess there are other places where game may want to denote randomness
17:07:29 <Alberth> no idea what it should do :p
17:08:10 <Samu> normal zoom level it's about hmm... max height of font size
17:08:11 <Alberth> perhaps annoying the player, defending the land against the invasion
17:08:31 <supermop> V453000: i wouldn't mind a competent team mate AI
17:08:57 <Samu> what is the max height of this font?
17:09:17 <V453000> yeah, I don't see anybody making an AI which makes at least decent train networks
17:09:28 <Samu> sec, let me get line height
17:11:05 <supermop> V453000: some seems to make networks, decent or not, and i admit that is impressive
17:12:27 <Samu> looks like the line height is 14
17:12:29 <supermop> but i would want the ai to do more of the chore work
17:12:41 <Samu> then there's the rectangle line
17:12:56 <supermop> i'll make the network, ai can help manage it
17:14:04 <supermop> 10 is plenty for dice i think
17:15:59 <Samu> dont really understand how the zoom x2 code works
17:16:34 <supermop> better to draw a 10x10 die that looks blocky at larger sizes than a 20x20 sprite that looks muddy when shrunk
17:17:09 <Samu> let me check the warning sign size
17:18:35 <Samu> need to find the warning sign zoomed
17:22:24 <supermop> if some color or greyscale is ok i can round the edges a bit, otherwise its doable in one color if you want a text glyph like the train icon
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17:27:57 <Samu> can't find the zoomed warning sign
17:29:45 <Samu> i thnk i only need 1 color
17:30:40 <Samu> not sure i understood your question
17:31:07 <Samu> I won't be painting the dice with different colors
17:32:10 <Samu> i either display the dice, or i don't
17:32:37 <Samu> i will use it on a gray background and that purpleish one
17:33:26 <Samu> I thought of changing purple to black background, but I'm not sure if I can do that
17:34:59 <supermop> where do you want the sprite, you have a thread for this patch?
17:38:14 <Samu> the grey background is the AI Debug window
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17:50:02 <Samu> Alberth: my code for calculating width is too disperse :(
17:52:00 <Samu> DrawWidget is becoming messy
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18:05:08 <Samu> switch / case is making me repeat part of the code, hmm i dunno
18:05:58 <Montana> hi, could i aks if a request is plausible?
18:12:42 <Samu> heh, now that i got the dice.png, what do i do with it :(
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18:27:16 <Alberth> Montana: don't ask to ask
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19:09:46 <Montana> I would like to request a filter on message history; i mean, for economic news, global news, internal messages from the company, etc
19:10:25 <Montana> its some anoying when they appear 1 thousand times "this vehicle has became too old"
19:10:45 <Montana> and due to this kind of spam, i can not get a registry of interesting news
19:15:03 <Alberth> so you're expecting that $random person here is bored enough to work for you, fixing issues he doesn't see as a major problem him/herself?
19:22:13 <Ketsuban> If vehicle senescence notifications are a bother, I believe there's a setting to turn them off.
19:22:23 <Montana> No, I think that could be a nice feauture. nothing more.
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19:32:34 <Wolf01> there is a setting to turn off the unwanted notifications (full article, news ticker only, no notification)
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20:39:36 <andythenorth> supermop: so what are you painting next for Iron Horse? o_O
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21:15:37 <supermop> was going to do monorails but i find "freelance" odds and ends easier logistically right now
21:16:49 <supermop> so if there is another straightforward llama or antelope ill take a look
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21:19:23 <Samu> and now, what can I do to put it to use?
21:19:45 <Samu> seems trivial, but I never done this before
21:24:40 <Samu> seems like I got to append it to trunk\media\extra_grf\openttdgui.png
21:25:46 <glx> adding it in the png is easy
21:26:56 <glx> editing the nfo is less easy
21:32:18 <supermop> andythenorth: what's most-needed at the moment
21:33:49 <Samu> openttdgui.png I just copy the dice image and paste it in?
21:35:22 <Alberth> counting manually is hard
21:35:47 <Alberth> adding a number in the sprite reduces counting errors
21:37:16 <Samu> sprite number 177 is the last one
21:37:23 <Samu> so i add this and call it 178?
21:37:40 <Samu> how do I write 178? must have been a tool
21:38:34 <Wolf01> andythenorth: I'm building the trailer for the moc, and the first thing I noticed is that I'm not able to build a rigid structure X'D
21:39:09 <andythenorth> looks like edibles tankers, gen 2 reefers
21:39:34 <andythenorth> livestock car needs redrawn for 2 generations, it’s just the brit one
21:40:00 <supermop> andythenorth: my antelope game got to 1904 over the weekend, with much micromanagement, so i have yet to see any gen 2 cars
21:40:08 <andythenorth> yeah, I’m about the same
21:40:11 <Samu> well, i paintshopped a "178" above the sprite, but i bet this is not the right way to do it
21:41:03 <andythenorth> also 2 more generations of hopper, 2 flat car generations…also the gen 2 box car is same as gen 1
21:41:29 <andythenorth> they need to be 6/8, 6/8 (but taller / wider), then 8/8 mostly
21:41:45 <supermop> now my NG network is centered on a city that's gone from around 3400 to 12000 in that time and the passenger service is just barely hanging on
21:42:04 <andythenorth> NG will struggle with that pax
21:42:20 <supermop> alsoo all my primary industry production seems high
21:43:07 <supermop> stuggle to fit enough 6 tile, 56kmh freights in on those lines seeing an express passenger leaving the city every 10 days
21:43:07 <andythenorth> maybe metro is needed :P
21:44:08 <supermop> so my freight are now 8 tiles with lots of waiting in sidings and dedicated freight track
21:46:34 <andythenorth> wondering if 512x512 is better for this economy / trains
21:46:38 <andythenorth> despite the slower speed
21:47:04 <supermop> maybe, with some mechanism for longer pickup intervals?
21:47:35 <andythenorth> I deleted that :P
21:47:52 <supermop> at normal production i have some industries that would really need a 5-6 tile train to leave every month
21:48:03 <glx> Samu: grfcodec doesn't care about the numbering ;)
21:48:07 <andythenorth> I am over-supplying trains and using escape depots
21:48:21 * andythenorth normally wouldn’t bother
21:48:51 <Samu> png must be 8-bit, suddenly it became 32-bit grr
21:48:53 <supermop> which means can't really have long pretty single track lines or few freights that run in gaps between passengers on the main line
21:49:05 <Samu> i don't have the right program to edit images, I'm using Windows paint
21:49:39 <glx> or any other real tool ;)
21:49:59 <Samu> shouldn't have uninstalled it
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23:48:31 <supermop> yen in game seems to be 3 orders of magnitude inflated relative to GBP, seems like it should be 2
23:49:12 <supermop> cant recall anytime in my memory where you'd 1000 yen per quid
23:50:19 <supermop> craziest i can think of is maybe 300 per dollar like 10+ years before i was born, but at that time a pound wasn't 3 dollars
continue to next day ⏵
