IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-05-08
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00:12:37 <Wolf01> better go to read a book
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10:04:36 <andythenorth> maybe objects should have been station objects? o_O
10:05:47 <Alberth> I'd think newobjects should be generalized to get influenced by surrounding stations, etc
10:06:54 <Alberth> I am sure you also want other things to influence such graphics :p
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10:23:46 <andythenorth> I wondered if the current arrangement is actually the best
10:23:59 <andythenorth> it’s easy enough, once you accept building ‘train’ stations for other transport types
10:24:26 <andythenorth> apart from the window placement, I never find it odd or awkward to use
10:24:41 * andythenorth never uses new objects though
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10:30:44 <Alberth> the advantage of the current setup is that there is no grey area what a station tile is, eg the station buildings that people make is easily categorised as station now
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10:31:48 <andythenorth> I think it’s a good hack
10:31:56 <andythenorth> and ‘fixing’ it is a tidy minds problem
10:33:15 <andythenorth> OTOH, my harbour stations would be nicer if station tiles could build on corner-coasts :P
10:45:21 <andythenorth> inevitable for train tiles afaict :P
10:45:43 <andythenorth> perhaps could be fixed for non-track tiles
10:46:48 <Alberth> newgrf should decide that?
10:47:09 <Alberth> maybe it's too much boilerplate for all newgrfs
10:47:37 <andythenorth> there is the need to avoid trains routing themselves up vertical cliffs
10:49:37 <Alberth> would be a major change anyway
10:51:13 <Alberth> he, heated discussion about your station gui patch :)
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12:17:12 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it wants a log in ;)
12:23:51 <Wolf01> it's the voxel version of the 2d one I'm using on my game
12:36:30 <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:36:33 <argoneus> this time actually in the morning
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13:04:01 <Matombo> i'm new to ttd and i have a question ^^
13:04:38 <Matombo> i have a railway set up with 2 power plants at each end and a cole mine between them
13:05:00 <Matombo> i now want a train to load coals drive to 1 power plant load coals again and drive to the other one
13:05:29 <Matombo> but wenn is et this up the train keeps adding "implicit orders" and always drive to the same power plant
13:07:56 <Alberth> make the order list longer
13:08:37 <Alberth> load coal at mine -> unload at power plant 1 -> load coal at mine -> unload at power plant 2
13:09:19 <Samu> i had a headache yesterday
13:11:07 <debdog> Alberth: mayhap the track to plant 2 is incomplete or some signal issue
13:11:08 <Matombo> well i had done it like that but i keept adding implicit orders to always drive to the same power plant
13:11:34 <Samu> I notice I'm starting to repeat code
13:11:35 <Matombo> i changed the order of the orders
13:11:40 <Matombo> now i works as intendet
13:11:45 <Samu> and i was told repeating code is bad
13:11:54 <Matombo> (first klicking on the destination power plant then in the coal mine
13:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Matombo: implicit orders do not send the train anywhere, it's just a record of where it actually went (e.g. after a depot visit)
13:13:21 <Samu> 99-103 is repeated then at 126-133
13:16:42 <Alberth> iirc there is a function for computing max width of a range of numbers
13:16:49 <andythenorth> meh, station tiles all showing same cargo :x
13:19:42 <Alberth> use a station for each cargo type, then it makes total sense :p
13:20:14 <andythenorth> that is a solution yes
13:22:41 <V453000> andythenorth: if you want an amazing experience for a game with kids, Samorost 3 is insanely good
13:23:23 <andythenorth> unusual art style
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13:30:11 <Wolf01> meh, I need to make 4 voxels just to animate the threads of the tank if I want to use the rendered version as sprite instead of the voxel itself and render it in 4 directions
13:39:45 <Alberth> V: wow, great style :)
13:40:02 <Alberth> so much detail things moving around in the background
13:45:48 <Wolf01> fu... the shadow rotates with the model :(
13:49:00 <Samu> which comes first? SetDParam or StringID?
13:49:26 <Samu> SetDParam(0, i + 1); StringID cid = STR_JUST_INT;
13:49:47 <Wolf01> V, andy, which angle should I set to the light if the base angle is 50°? Just sum 90° for each rotation?
13:54:19 <Alberth> Samu: DParam is used when you "print" the string, to display, or to char *buffer, or so
13:56:10 <Samu> i need to compute widest_cid, without drawing the string
13:56:19 <V453000> yeah it's super nice Alberth
13:56:41 <Alberth> Samu: getBoundingBox also draws the string
13:57:12 <Alberth> can't get the size without converting to letters, and then to pixels
13:57:36 <Samu> STR_JUST_INT is the string, it needs the numbers
13:57:50 <Samu> else it assumes gigantic numbers
13:58:46 <Samu> i've seen it print company 2 billion
13:59:46 <Alberth> STR_JUST_INT is just an integer number
14:00:04 <Alberth> which indexes into a string table, taking a parameter
14:00:21 <Alberth> and yes, if you don't set the parameter, you get garbage values
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14:11:59 <andythenorth> do you animate it?
14:12:11 <Wolf01> I need to animate the threads
14:12:26 <Wolf01> so I need to make 4 of these
14:13:21 <Wolf01> the original version was top-down, so I only needed 4 sprites
14:14:18 <Wolf01> also, I found I could make a lego version with just one switch, it just puts edges and studs on top of the cubes XD
14:15:20 <Wolf01> hmm no, no edges, I had the grid enabled
14:16:01 <andythenorth> Iron Horse - Diamonds capacity is stupid
14:16:16 <andythenorth> capacity (t) = capacity (bags)
14:16:33 <andythenorth> tell me a better ratio
14:16:40 <andythenorth> I have code for this already
14:16:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause ^ usually knows these things
14:17:53 <andythenorth> maybe use mail capacity = diamonds capacity
14:18:02 <andythenorth> Wolf01: that’s quite neat :)
14:20:40 <Alberth> placement issue as in the window is too high? or not attached to the construction bar?
14:21:23 <andythenorth> doesn’t obscure my viewport when opened
14:21:44 <andythenorth> locked left also
14:22:32 <Alberth> this is about station tiles that are really objects rather than station tiles eh?
14:23:09 <Alberth> station picker isn't really designed for object-ish tiles, afaik
14:24:12 * andythenorth wonders about simply adjusting the position that window is drawn
14:24:41 <Alberth> it gets drawn close to the construction toolbar iirc
14:25:12 <Alberth> not sure if that's hard-coded or just by accident
14:25:39 <Alberth> landscape bar has a toggle for positioning iirc
14:31:32 <Wolf01> does anyone still use the fixed station sizes?
14:32:45 <Alberth> trivially gets the same sized station everywhere :)
14:41:29 <andythenorth> 5x2 everywhere is default
14:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i almost never use the drag&drop stations
14:43:09 <Alberth> but could be a drop-down, probably
14:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i sometimes wish for an "8" on the selectable sizes
14:44:42 <Alberth> Samu: make an array with the string number, and loop over it
14:44:59 * andythenorth would want 20x2 for some games :P
14:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 15 was the highest length i did
14:45:39 <Alberth> how many engines does that have?
14:46:02 <andythenorth> only on big maps though with low industry counts
14:46:25 <andythenorth> what’s the biggest useful ship?
14:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> are ships useful?
14:46:42 <andythenorth> Squid has ~1000t, but I almost never use them
14:47:14 <Alberth> 1000t seems a nice upper limit then :p
14:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, without simultaneous-loading limits at docks, you'd rather go for many small ships instead of few big ones
14:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> my pick for ships is usually that they have the same capacity as the train they're transferring to/from
14:47:56 <Alberth> also looks much better in game
14:48:08 <andythenorth> and FIRS industry production suits more frequent deliveries
14:48:30 <andythenorth> I only use the big ships because they’re there, and I try to use most vehicles at least once in a game
14:48:31 <Alberth> for FIRS max useful capacity is much lower than default industries
14:48:49 <andythenorth> I’m not averse to a scaling parameter for larger ships
14:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 1000t sounds alright
14:48:55 <andythenorth> log scale or so :P
14:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> 's no harm in having a "once in a while" vehicle
14:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> _someone_ will use it.
14:49:46 <andythenorth> those people can have a parameter
14:49:57 <andythenorth> now I just need a name for a new ship set :P
14:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> problem with parameter is that you have to set it before the game, when you aren't sure what the map layout will be, and whether you ever want to use ships
14:50:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: refittable capacity? o_O
14:50:58 <Alberth> moby dick sounds good
14:51:04 <andythenorth> some single-cargo ships have refittable capacity already
14:51:10 <andythenorth> rubbish for multi-cargo though
14:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there is absolutely no point in refittable capacity when you can just have more ships
14:51:47 <andythenorth> logically I agree, but I think players feel differently
14:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so, need a backronym for MOBY now?
14:52:15 <andythenorth> nah, backronyms are a bit 2008 imho
14:52:24 <andythenorth> feel free though
14:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Many Obsolete Backronyms Y'all
14:53:03 * andythenorth thinks of calling it Ghost Fleet, for no justifiable reason
14:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (no idea what i just said)
14:54:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you just wrote the epitaph on backronyms, is all
14:54:54 <andythenorth> oh Ghost Fleet is some apocalyptic military novel
14:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard of ghost ships before, but a ghost fleet?
14:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> which are the "7 seas" anyway?
14:59:41 <andythenorth> Seven Seas is a good name?
15:02:19 <Samu> int _params[3] = { STR_AI_CONFIG_GAMESCRIPT, STR_AI_CONFIG_NONE, STR_AI_CONFIG_AI };
15:02:31 <Samu> i dont know how to make the loop
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15:12:11 <argoneus> what do you mean they're not ints
15:12:27 <argoneus> STR_AI_CONFIG_GAMESCRIPT seems like an enum value
15:12:30 * andythenorth going to reset ship capacity:sprites ratio somewhat
15:12:33 <argoneus> which in C++ iirc is basically int
15:12:49 <argoneus> so you can just loop normally
15:12:59 <andythenorth> reduced capacities compared to Squid = greater variation in sprite sizes
15:12:59 <argoneus> like for (int i = 0; i < 3; ++i) { params[i] ... }
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15:18:37 <Samu> yes, i think so, will try
15:19:04 <andythenorth> smaller capacity = higher chance of using the larger ships in game
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15:33:10 <argoneus> enums are literally integers
15:33:32 <argoneus> integers or any other type you want
15:33:44 <argoneus> integral type that is
15:34:00 <Alberth> not entirely, they get silently converted to plain integers
15:35:34 <Alberth> change can be eliminated, you use it only one time
15:36:33 <Alberth> StringID _param[] <-- _ prefix is only for global variables, this is not global, since it's defined inside a { .. } scope
15:36:51 <Alberth> also, make it static const to avoid computing it more than once
15:37:13 <Alberth> "3" is a magic constant, use lengthof(_params)
15:38:24 <Alberth> and no space after { and space before } at line 4
15:38:53 <Samu> that was visual studio who put them :(
15:39:15 <Alberth> no doubt it has a setting to change that
15:40:00 <Alberth> if it hasn't the thing is just broken
15:40:58 <Alberth> param <-- missed that the first time, but make this "params" as it is a container with multiple things in it
15:41:14 <Samu> it was actually params first
15:41:15 <Alberth> ie use singular form for sinugular things :)
15:41:21 <andythenorth> eh, 2 generations of ships enough?
15:41:31 <andythenorth> 1880-1940, 1940->endgame
15:42:02 <Alberth> first 60 years, and then 110? :p
15:42:27 <Alberth> well, depends on how long a game is, of course
15:43:03 <andythenorth> there’s not much progression potential in ships
15:43:31 <andythenorth> also there is a risk that I design the set around available sprites, rather than gameplay :)
15:43:48 <Alberth> I never take much notice on new engines and so on
15:44:10 <Alberth> I mostly check when something is old, and needs updating
15:44:37 <Alberth> or when capacity is severely limited
15:44:45 * andythenorth never thinks about reliability :o
15:45:03 <Alberth> you're not the only one :)
15:46:43 <andythenorth> with a bit of spread either side
15:48:08 <andythenorth> also ignorance of realism
15:49:28 <Samu> .oops, it's not a matrix
15:50:31 <Samu> WD_FRAMERECT_LEFT + WD_FRAMERECT_RIGHT
15:58:55 <Samu> calculating width is too confusing
15:59:18 <Samu> too many elements to account
16:01:29 <Samu> int DrawString(int left, int right, int top, StringID str, TextColour colour, StringAlignment align, bool underline, FontSize fontsize)
16:01:51 * andythenorth wonders how a consist can detach the engine
16:02:07 <andythenorth> I assumed loads of stuff is pointing at the lead vehicle
16:02:20 <andythenorth> also how to know how many engines to detach when shunting?
16:02:50 <andythenorth> also what if the consist has mid-train or rear engines
16:04:47 <Alberth> afaik you can't have a train without front engine
16:05:30 <Alberth> and you run into block reservations
16:05:48 <Alberth> new train may enter at the other side of the virtual signal
16:05:56 <Alberth> remove the signal..... boem
16:06:43 <Alberth> but in all, too much realism
16:07:31 <andythenorth> I don’t see the gameplay in it
16:08:00 <Alberth> playing model trains, I think
16:08:24 <Samu> right to left is too confusing
16:08:36 <Alberth> but that's a train simulator rather than a tycoon game
16:09:37 <Alberth> if you paint 3 columns A B C, now paint them C B A
16:10:12 <Samu> left to right, i draw this in order: draw a square, then draw a number from 1 to 15, then draw script name, then optionally draw random_ai if it's random ai
16:11:04 <Alberth> so draw random_ai or nothing, draw scriptname, draw number, draw square
16:11:48 <andythenorth> isn’t it just an array walked backwards?
16:12:02 <Alberth> if you make each element a separate widget yes
16:12:04 <andythenorth> and if the item in the array needs to compose, that also walks it’s own array backwards?
16:12:11 <andythenorth> “turtles all the way down"
16:12:25 <Alberth> but samu draws them manually all in the same widget
16:13:14 <Alberth> so you need to change the paint code
16:14:58 <Samu> i need to make this simplified
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16:19:20 <andythenorth> Merchant Marine?
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16:35:19 <Alberth> Turtles would be a roster, wouldn't it?
16:39:08 <andythenorth> dunno, might skip rosters
16:39:18 <andythenorth> means too much drawing
16:39:30 <andythenorth> ships is ships is ships
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17:03:16 <Samu> i can't use WD_MATRIX_LEFT for adding a space between 2 strings or 1 string and 1 sprite?
17:06:05 <Samu> i wanted to add a space between the square box and the text that comes after
17:06:25 <Samu> WD_FRAMERECT_LEFT or WD_MATRIX_LEFT?
17:08:04 <Alberth> don't think there is a constant for it
17:08:20 <Alberth> just use a small number
17:08:34 <Wolf01> it is confusing because you are asking like "teaspoon or fork to cut the steak?"
17:08:34 <Alberth> you can make it a constant if you like
17:09:10 <Samu> is this value doubled if the gui size is x2?
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17:10:24 <Alberth> not sure how that is done, afaik there is a function that computes the space for you
17:17:36 <Samu> it was using 10 before, think i'll use 10 again
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18:03:13 <Samu> i'm still not done though
18:09:22 <Samu> how am I gonna display the random ai indicator :(
18:10:44 <Samu> script name (indicator here) or (indicator here) script name?
18:12:42 <Samu> I'm more inclined towards (indicator here) script name
18:18:11 <Samu> | (square) (space) name_of_script_aligned_to_left (space) (indicator_aligned_to_right) |
18:18:55 <Samu> i'm dealing with unknown string lenghts
18:19:31 <Samu> random ai sometimes is longer than name of script, and vice versa
18:22:09 <Alberth> one step at a time :)
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19:04:32 <andythenorth> I should add industry sound effects to FIRS? o_O
19:06:26 <Montana> btw, what is pacman economy?
19:06:40 <Montana> will you add more economies upp to FIRS?
19:08:26 <andythenorth> if I don’t get bored or hit by a bus
19:13:29 <Montana> hahah FIRS programmed in Python?
19:14:14 <Alberth> no, it's an NML code generator :)
19:25:14 <Montana> but i have seen in src files at FIRS .py files...
19:25:33 <Montana> anyway, what does NML resemble to?
19:26:04 <andythenorth> nothing else I’ve ever seen :)
19:27:04 <Alberth> it's mostly declarative style programming
19:29:06 <Montana> why extension .py then ?
19:30:10 <Alberth> that's the python NML code generator, that generates FIRS in NML
19:34:44 <andythenorth> FIRS compile imports a bunch of python objects for industries and cargos, then uses them to generate the NML code
19:37:26 <andythenorth> hmm, ship set called ‘Sea Otter’? o_O
19:44:23 <Alberth> you could also give the ships sea/water animal names :)
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27555 trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt (2016-05-08 19:45:37 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> croatian: 3 changes by VoyagerOne
19:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> have we just spent a whole day bikeshedding a name for the ship set?
19:55:49 <Samu> what about the rightmost coordinate?
19:56:07 <Samu> or r.left in the case of right to left
19:58:18 <Alberth> use width instead, that stays the same in both cases
19:58:41 <Alberth> only the left edge moves then
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20:03:34 <shuzzle> I want to load my saved game, but this is all I get: Broken savegame: referencing invalid CargoPacket. Any ideas how to fix this?
20:06:25 <Alberth> Samu: the width of the text in a single column
20:06:51 <Alberth> instead of having left and right, have left and width
20:07:05 <Alberth> width doesn't change, left and right both do change
20:08:09 <Samu> gui zoom worries me though
20:08:16 <Samu> it doesn't double the value
20:08:30 <Alberth> there is a separate function for it
20:09:11 <Alberth> it was implemented after I finished making the gui system, so I don't know the details
20:09:31 <Alberth> but it should be everywhere that handles sizes of text
20:09:39 <Alberth> ie all over the place
20:10:12 <Alberth> shuzzle: maybe the savegame is from a different openttd version, eg a patchpack?
20:10:58 <Alberth> patchpack usually are not compatible with anything else
20:11:10 <Alberth> and that might include other versions of the same patchpack
20:13:18 <Montana> could you add a new feature for next version?: In Scenario editor, a button for deleting all industries.
20:20:20 <shuzzle> thanks Alberth . I will try to find out if it was another version.
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20:34:09 <andythenorth> all the old ship sprites I could reuse are broken
20:34:35 <andythenorth> they are too long in \ / angles
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20:36:56 <andythenorth> where is V453000?
20:37:45 <andythenorth> Road Hog and Iron Horse have colour schemes, approximately
20:37:52 <andythenorth> like black for freight engines, cc for pax etc
20:37:58 <andythenorth> rules are broken sometimes
20:38:06 * andythenorth thinks ships need same
20:44:13 <V453000> I don't think it matters terribly much, but yeah a certain style for each category is nice
20:44:30 <V453000> black/colourful for freight and CC for pax sounds good
20:44:38 <Alberth> given that I just do industrial cargo, I didn't notice the categories :p
20:46:33 <Alberth> the only wood on the ship :)
20:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Montana: there used to be a command to delete all player-owned property, maybe you can build off from that?
20:48:12 <Montana> yea, but it does not delete industries, just railroad, stations ,etc
21:08:42 <supermop_> andythenorth: all real steamships are ugly
21:09:56 <supermop_> best part of great war was dazzle camouflaging all those ugly steamers that got pressed into service as transports
21:10:01 <Alberth> /me would like some non-real non-ugly steamships
21:10:33 <supermop_> Alberth: option for dazzle camouflage livery?
21:11:36 <Alberth> we have no dangerous aircraft not dangerous submarines, no camouflage needed :p
21:20:21 <supermop_> melbourne had a dazzle tram when i was there
21:21:07 * andythenorth will invent steamships
21:22:31 <supermop_> isnt it like 8:20 pm there?
21:24:06 <Montana> is there a way to clone scenarios?
21:24:21 <Montana> i mean: same map,with their cities but vainilla
21:43:41 <Alberth> best you can do is save a height map, and place the cities again
21:44:40 <Montana> i mean, a tedious task
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23:51:47 <Montana> has been Marico and InfrasCope NewGRF's deleted from Bananas? Was uploaded this afternoon and now they do not appear in the list... Some about licenses maybe?
23:52:41 <V453000> marico on bananas? impossible
23:53:56 <Montana> yea, it also impressed me, but i swear this afternoon was uploaded.
23:54:17 <Montana> even more: from my folder content_download/newgrf i can see this file:
23:54:25 <Montana> Maricolandscapeitems-Latest.tar.gz
23:55:10 <Montana> inside the compressed folder, the newgrf with a copy of the GNU license
23:55:45 <Montana> maybe somone uploaded it without the consent of the authors?
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