IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-04-20
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01:48:11 <Samu> hmm i have a problem... this clamping feature is annoying
01:52:34 <Samu> I am coding openttd in a way to use a max_compression for sending maps to clients joining a server, a min_compression for fast forward games, and a default for any other kind of savegame
01:53:34 <Samu> if openttd.cfg has nothing set in "sendmap_format = ", it will use the defaults
01:54:08 <Samu> in the case of lzma, that would be compression level 6
01:54:54 <Samu> however, if someone sets something in there, like "sendmap_format = lzma:9", the clamp function gets in the way
01:55:29 <Samu> it says an error about compression level
01:56:17 <Samu> it's wrong. level 9 is possible, lzma can work with this level
01:56:49 <Samu> how can I solve this so that when nothing is set, it uses the max default of 6, but if a user sets something up to 9, it uses what the user wants?
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05:44:57 <Rubidium> why do you want to use levels 7-9?
05:45:04 <Rubidium> aren't they larger files?
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08:17:18 <peter1138> min compression when fast forward is pressed? odd
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10:37:10 <dvim> Hi all. Is there a way to run OpenTTD on linux in 144Hz refresh rate? I have noticed a configuration option for win32, but that did not work for linux, obviously. The biggest problem with lower refresh rate is the noticeable jitter when moving in-game windows around.
10:46:42 <planetmaker> dvim, the refresh rate of your video is a system thing. OpenTTD itself - independent of any OS it runs on, renders 30 fps, that's it.
10:47:26 <dvim> planetmaker: ahh okay. Is there a way to make OpenTTD render in a higher framerate?
10:47:39 <planetmaker> no. But there isn't on windows either.
10:47:52 <planetmaker> well, of course there is. (re)write the video drivers
10:48:20 <planetmaker> and that means modifying the game up to its core, breaking up the game loop into smaller chunks
10:49:08 <planetmaker> what configuration option do you actually refer to?
10:52:59 <planetmaker> I actually wonder whether that setting exists... as far as my memory goes, I've never seen it or heard about it in the last 10 years...
10:53:13 <planetmaker> and I don't find any evidence in the source either so far
10:53:47 <planetmaker> hm... there actually is
10:55:46 <dvim> The wiki page also mentions full screen. So when the game goes full screen on windows, it probably is able to change screen refresh rate via drivers.
10:56:13 <planetmaker> it only has an effect for full-screen
10:56:37 <planetmaker> but I don't see any evidence in the code that it's a user-configurable setting
10:57:33 <dvim> Yea. Anyway, you already clarified that this is not what I am looking for. :) I would like to have OpenTTD render at least 144 frames per second, because this is my monitors refresh rate.
10:58:01 <dvim> But if the refresh rate is tied to the game update logic, then that is going to be hard to do.
10:58:10 <dvim> refresh rate == frames per second...
10:58:20 <planetmaker> dvim, rendering the same thing 4x in a row and then changing to another thing rendered 4x in a row won't cut it. The 30fps is kinda hard-coded in the foundations
10:58:58 <planetmaker> or rather 30 milliseconds between frames. So... 33fps
10:59:49 <planetmaker> The main loop is not faster, thus any change to anything in the game is not calculated faster anyway. So refreshing the display faster won't help
11:00:24 <planetmaker> it would need separating out drawing the view from the game loop while ensuring that no inconsistent data are drawn
11:00:43 <planetmaker> which is probably as much work as rewriting large portions of the game
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11:01:44 <dvim> Yea. I understand. I had a hobby project game which had logic refresh rate tightly coupled to the fps. And then I wanted to decouple it which was quite hard.
11:02:15 <dvim> I can imagine it gets quite complicated for a complex game such as OpenTTD.
11:12:26 <Samu> lines 87, 88, 89 and 96, 97, 98 will decide on the compression level, while line 124 will decide on the encoder choice. I wonder if what code retuns follows this guideline http://i.imgur.com/wDodzlc.png
11:13:02 <Samu> lines 87, 88, 89 and 96, 97, 98 will decide on the compression level, while line 124 will decide on the encoder choice. I wonder if what the code returs follows this guideline http://i.imgur.com/wDodzlc.png
11:14:59 <Samu> I'm reusing the existant savegame_format for the manual saves
11:20:49 <peter1138> There's no point rendering faster than the game loop as things don't change.
11:21:38 <peter1138> The only exception is when scrolling a viewport. I had a patch for that...
11:22:34 <peter1138> I also had a patch for skipping frames when using fast forward.
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11:52:57 <Samu> these checks seem to be sufficient
11:55:12 <Rubidium> dvim: just enable fast forward
11:56:22 <Rubidium> although, on Linux there might also be limitations in SDL for certain things limiting the amount of updates that can be done
11:57:20 <Rubidium> as in: I seem to remember not doing one last step for pushing data to the video made fast forward in a light game with lots of movement significantly faster. But that's long ago and SDL might have changed since
12:10:35 <Samu> tell me, how much time would u be waiting
12:10:42 <Samu> before getting fed up of waiting
12:11:06 <dvim> Rubidium: aha. Fast forward makes everything, including moving in-game windows smooth. It probably removes that 30ms delay that planetmaker mentioned, right?
12:11:17 <Samu> actually, sort by total time, it also includes memcopy
12:11:35 <dvim> The only problem is that now a couple of years are going to pass in between my train builds. :)
12:13:07 <Samu> my problem right now, is finding an acceptable "slow" value
12:14:05 <Samu> imagine there's 10 clients waiting in queue
12:14:58 <Samu> each client takes "insert total time" to get the map, the 10th client would have to wait "insert total time"*9 to start receiving his map
12:15:07 <Rubidium> dvim: maybe there are some ways to make it better by changing some code, but I'm not sure whether it's going to make it actually better when the game gets busier as it's spending the whole 30 ms or more in just the game loop and not doing other screen updates
12:16:40 <Samu> hmm... distributing the map as a torrent wouldn't be that bad of an idea
12:16:48 <Samu> but meh... let's not get into that
12:17:33 <Rubidium> because then you need to add even more overhead to tell the clients to save at a particular time. If they were saving, then that client will have to wait until the data becomes available
12:17:59 <Rubidium> if that client is already barely keeping up and needs to provide the last chunk of data, then you have to wait really long (tm) to join and you gain nothing
12:18:16 <Rubidium> also, what makes you think other's upload speeds are reasonable?
12:19:55 <Samu> yea i remember when i had a limited connection, i was always complaining about blizzard downloads being torrents
12:22:14 <peter1138> Rubidium, yeah, that was one of the issues with my patch. once the game got heavy it would start delaying frames
12:27:50 <Rubidium> but I guess the best to ensure fastest join time is to determine the server's upload speed, the server's compression speeds and the client's download speed and based on those three variables (and the available savegame formats) determine the best compression settings
12:28:52 <peter1138> simple solution. don't play stupid 4096x4096 maps
12:29:34 <Rubidium> hmm... actually, server upload/client download speed needs to be determined in one go, after all... if the server and client have a 1 GB connection to a speedtest server, but only a 14k4 line between the server and the client, then the calculations will go totally wrong
12:49:20 <Samu> well, suppose I'm a client with an horrible download speed
12:49:36 <Samu> i'd prefer the server to send me the most compressed possible format
12:50:06 <Samu> but this is bad for some other client with a GODLY connection, that format is gonna take a long time to finish encoding
12:50:22 <Samu> there has to be an acceptable balance :(
12:54:44 <Samu> what is the max download time ? brb gonna check
12:55:48 <Samu> 32000 - this value is ticks?
12:56:00 <Samu> how much is this in seconds
12:57:58 <Rubidium> rule of thumb... tick is 30ms
12:58:52 <Samu> max_download_time = 1000 as default
13:05:21 <Samu> 960 seconds, or 30 seconds
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13:24:12 <_dp_> client can request specific compression when connecting
13:24:52 <_dp_> that's one option at least, people with slow connections can set high compression in options
13:36:44 <Rubidium> _dp_: looks like the perfect DOS attack
13:37:19 <Rubidium> either pass none or lzma:9 to have maximum bandwidth or maximum CPU usage
13:37:51 <Rubidium> even then, how many clients are going to change that? And how much does it help in the end?
13:39:25 <Rubidium> currently it's LZMA:2 by default, now lets assume you have a slow connection and assume Samu's calculations
13:40:20 <Rubidium> LZMA:2 takes 12 seconds to save, LZMA:9 takes 72 for 12.3 vs 10.8 MiB
13:41:41 <Rubidium> so, for the 60 seconds to make sense that should mean downloading the 11 MB should take more than 66 seconds (5 seconds for just preparing game state)
13:42:53 <Rubidium> which would mean a speed of ~170 kBps (~1400 kBps) or lower
13:44:03 <Rubidium> and that in it's own means that either you are delaying the game of others by over a minute (pause-on-join) or you have to somehow figure out to get up to speed quickly
13:45:09 <Rubidium> since this game is huge, I do not think that one minute can be made good within the default alotted time, actually the 66 seconds is way over the default download time limit
13:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> i discussed with eddi, what kind of synchronisation objects it woudl require to run a computer with countable infinite cores <- that's easy, you just have to daisy-chain the cores :p
13:57:56 <Rubidium> just run a SP Linux kernel; problems solved
14:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the main problem you will face is that each core can only communicate with a finite number of cores ahead/behind itself
14:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need a method for indirect communication
14:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but basically, there should be no difference between an infinite number of cores, and an unknown and variable number of cores (say, the internet)
14:03:35 <Wolf01> a common stack? the first core which finishes its current process can pop the next one from the stack
14:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> programs like BOINC usually send out the same process to multiple targets
14:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and then compare/discard results
14:12:05 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: except that with the internet you, in theory, have some sort of known upper limit of connected machines/cores
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14:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: except you have NAT and stuff
14:12:56 <Rubidium> as the rest is not connected, or you are talking to a number of NAT-ed nodes that you cannot reach
14:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so behind each of the 2**128 cores you could have a 2**128 private network
14:13:36 <Rubidium> though in that case you're just daisy-chaining the 2**128 "cores" together
14:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's what i meant with "you can only communicate with a finite subset"
14:13:59 <Rubidium> in the grand scheme of things, it's still O(1) connected cores
14:14:23 <Wolf01> this pc BSODs too much
14:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, no real physical object can ever be infinite
14:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but a fractal one would mean each layer is less powerful than the previous
14:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which means you have some dimension where you get a finite limit
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14:21:09 <Wolf01> from the "size" point of view?
14:24:51 <Samu> well, for "compatibility" purposes, I'm setting slow equal to default
14:26:10 <Samu> i rather not ruin any existant configuration
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15:32:30 <Samu> still have to edit main post, or it becomes a mess
15:33:35 <Samu> I don't know why I still call it faster server autosaves.... it's more than that now
15:36:34 <V453000> busy as hell but it is awesome
15:39:42 <Rubidium> what is that, productivity?
15:44:49 <V453000> random word I saw on the internet
15:44:59 <V453000> because internet is the seed of productivity
15:45:16 <V453000> major wisdom to be gathered in cat pictures
15:49:02 <V453000> explains why andy is searching for cat
15:49:10 <V453000> in fact he seeks enlightenment
15:49:40 <supermop> i am beat from 3 weeks of fast product development cycle
15:50:09 * Rubidium didn't see enlightenment under Buddha's tree and darkness already fell
15:50:24 <supermop> 3 weeks may be kind of short for a software product but its insane for a product made out of cast and forged steel
15:51:02 <supermop> including trying to coordinate with factory 12 hours different
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16:25:32 <Wolf01> I can't find productivity, every kind of try I made didn't output a successfull result :(
16:26:06 <V453000> well you at least learnt how not to do it I believe?
16:26:11 <V453000> that is also progress
16:26:26 <V453000> in the latest thing I have been doing, I have learned many things the hard way
16:26:54 <Wolf01> I learnt that factorio is more productive, not for me thought
16:28:28 <Alberth> maybe you can find enlightenment about productivity in factorio? :)
16:29:34 <Wolf01> I found bleeding eyes until now, I installed it on my tablet and I play with it until late night
16:30:00 <V453000> factorio works on tablet?
16:30:18 <V453000> how do you control it? :D
16:30:40 <V453000> do you plug keyboard/mouse to your tablet?
16:30:40 <Wolf01> bluetooth mouse and keyboard, I tried with touch but it's a pain in the ass
16:30:48 <V453000> then that makes perfect sense :D
16:32:19 <V453000> I am looking for 0.13, then I might play a bit of factorio myself :)
16:32:24 <V453000> until then probably not :d
16:32:39 <Wolf01> also since my pc broke up I can't test things in the right way (this one seem that can't run emulators) and it seem to bsod every now and then... some whings I'm trying to learn doesn't seem to work the way I expect and this is depressing, so I lose most of my time playing
16:33:39 <Wolf01> because "w" is just right of the "t", I can't even know how I can make some typos...
16:35:20 <V453000> well playing factorio is time well spent :P
16:38:06 <Wolf01> if I want to become a factory planner, yes
16:50:18 <V453000> #grindingshitloadofresources
16:50:23 <V453000> #knowledgefromkillingaliens
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17:00:37 <Wolf01> mmmh, I might need to do a transparent trees mod for factorio too
17:01:01 <Wolf01> which allows to remove what is behind trees without touching them
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17:01:18 <V453000> WITHOUT TOUCHING THEM?
17:01:28 <V453000> wrecking nature is the top priority in factorio
17:04:00 <Wolf01> Mary had a little tree near a rock, I put a crate there with useless stuff, too bad I also put a wooden pole behind the tree and after some time I needed to remove it because a belt was more likely to stay there... but trying to do that I chopped the tree and Mary is now sad
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17:04:59 <Wolf01> mmmh all the trees around the 15 power plants are dying
17:05:29 <Wolf01> I don't like dead trees
17:05:52 <Wolf01> time to chop them down
17:19:34 <Wolf01> mmh, now I only need the personal roboport
17:20:25 <Wolf01> which mean I need to do the other research branch to be able to make the power armor, the blue science kits and all that stuff :(
17:21:06 <Wolf01> also I can't produce enough steel for all that stuff
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18:42:23 <Samu> im doing something wrong with this check
18:42:38 <Samu> fastforward saves aren't working correctly
18:42:48 <Samu> not picking the correct format :(
18:44:03 <Samu> or rather... the correct compression level :(
18:44:08 <Samu> format is correct, not the level
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19:11:21 <Samu> there's something wrong with this check _pause_mode = PM_UNPAUSED)
19:11:39 <Samu> if (_pause_mode = PM_UNPAUSED)
19:12:12 <Samu> how do i check if it's true that the game is unpaused? :p
19:14:58 <Samu> if (_pause_mode & PM_UNPAUSED)
19:18:44 <glx> else the test is equivalent to if (PM_UNPAUSED) ;)
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19:40:43 <Samu> alright, posting new patch, brb
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20:03:23 <Samu> need to test dedicated server
20:03:35 <Samu> how do i launch openttd from visual studio as a dedicated server?
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20:38:43 <Xaroth|Work> add commandline arguments?
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20:42:21 <supermop> statement is still valid; you are andythenorth
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20:47:22 * andythenorth lets Civil AI build roads everywhere
20:47:39 <andythenorth> no need for any more trains in this map, just use RVs :P
20:48:18 * andythenorth has escape depots in this game, hope I get points for that
20:51:29 <andythenorth> 300t train, 2800hp
20:51:39 <andythenorth> accelerates to top speed instantly :o
20:51:49 <andythenorth> (top speed is 40mph, it’s a metro train)
20:54:29 <supermop> i feel like the subway here accellerates to top speed instantly if the driver doesn't give a shit
21:04:22 <andythenorth> is forums today?
21:06:01 <andythenorth> not so forums eh
21:06:38 <andythenorth> nothing interestin
21:08:16 <V453000> I find it strongly offputting how the cargo is flat at the top
21:09:25 <andythenorth> artist probably in a hurry
21:10:57 <supermop> chute seems to be scraping it off flat
21:11:08 <andythenorth> this author has not read the ‘no war themes’ guideline :(
21:11:13 <andythenorth> can’t put that on bananas
21:12:23 <andythenorth> and then some silly realisms liveries
21:13:11 <supermop> maybe that howitzer is to be used for avalanche control
21:16:16 <supermop> patch to allow building houses over rail
21:17:23 <supermop> 5 years ago that was entirely an open yard
21:18:28 * andythenorth wonders if that’s Trump
21:20:10 <supermop> actually he doesnt have any stake in the hudson yards development
21:20:50 <supermop> cant think of any significant successful development he's done in the city they last 15 years off hand
21:24:21 <andythenorth> polar bear is a marine mammal
21:24:33 * andythenorth looking at names for a ship set
21:24:49 <andythenorth> ha, Sea Otter is nice
21:45:00 <supermop> somebody write a "train tips over" patch
21:46:16 <andythenorth> I don’t fathom that one
21:46:26 <andythenorth> unless those are pushers / DPUs, or they were reversing
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21:47:48 <andythenorth> maybe the rail turned under the second loco, or it picked the switch
21:50:38 <andythenorth> I could just call this ship set FISH,
21:52:00 <sim-al2> That wouldn't cause any confusion what-so-ever
21:52:37 <V453000> ANUS New Ultimate Ships
21:53:12 <andythenorth> they won’t be Ultimate
21:53:30 <andythenorth> also no more recursive acronyms :P
21:53:38 <andythenorth> because don’t like the current one
21:53:51 <andythenorth> but iz players and contributors
21:54:04 <andythenorth> also cries of “why andythenorth, why” if I change it
21:54:11 <andythenorth> fucking FIRS 2 situation all over again
21:54:19 <V453000> well then you probably have plans for the next one to be better, possibly the best in your mind, so ultimate :>
21:54:39 <V453000> yeah I get your problem
21:54:53 <V453000> just give less shit about opinions and follow your objective reasoning
21:55:17 <andythenorth> objective reasoning is ‘make new set let players keep using old set, care not'
21:55:17 <V453000> I made changes to nuts that people didn't like, but when I explained it to them, they agreed in the end
21:55:31 <andythenorth> just needs name :P
21:55:44 <andythenorth> ‘but why andythenorth is bananas full of unfinished ship sets'
21:55:56 <andythenorth> also servers with multiple ship sets ha ha ha
21:56:00 <andythenorth> all same ships, different names
21:56:09 <V453000> banned for spamming incomplete things
21:56:59 <andythenorth> basically more CC
21:57:54 <ST2> oh crap, we're using Iron Horse for a tournament next May 1st - probably players will notice: DAMN, bought an engine and no motor on it?!
22:06:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: what's wrong with the sea monsters? :p
22:12:12 <andythenorth> but then Speilberg will sue me :P
22:14:33 <frosch123> isn't moby dick by jules verne? i.e. copyright-free?
22:15:50 <andythenorth> I started reading it recently somewhere
22:18:39 <supermop> certainly melvile not verne
22:19:04 <supermop> the "great american novel" and whatnot
22:19:35 <supermop> andythenorth: we all have to read it in high school here
22:20:29 <andythenorth> Great White Whale
22:21:51 <supermop> what more is needed for ships?
22:22:04 <supermop> squid seems both sufficient and "done"
22:27:37 <frosch123> upgrade to lobster maybe
22:27:44 <supermop> boats look likes boats
22:27:54 <supermop> im a satisfied customer
22:28:05 <frosch123> he, andythenorth: you could punish the forum people by naming ships after them :p
22:28:35 <supermop> but certainly i don't recall there being anything "unfinished" in it
22:30:18 <andythenorth> this is why I want to do a new one :)
22:30:47 <andythenorth> the things that irritate me about it are probably not obvious when playing the game :
22:31:00 <andythenorth> no point breaking one that people like ;)
22:47:29 <Samu> i read a bit of lzo documentation, it supports multilevels
22:47:51 <Samu> it's not properly implemented in openttd though :(
22:48:21 <Samu> same range as the others, 0 to 9
22:49:56 <Samu> the coding style is so darn different from the examples i see
22:50:41 <supermop> i wonder if i can put surfboard on wedding registry
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22:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll get something about mid-life-crisis as a reply :p
22:52:33 <supermop> i should hope i'm not old enough for mid life crisis yet
22:53:05 <supermop> although if so i don't need to worry about my non-existent retirement savings...
22:53:31 <Samu> OpenTTD is C++, lzo is C, how are they even compatible?
23:02:43 <Samu> there's a asm build of lzo
23:02:52 <Samu> build or code, whatever this is
23:05:02 <Samu> ok, my next goal is trying to make lzo work how it should
23:05:37 <Samu> im dealing with code outside openttd, lzo code
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23:09:46 <sim-al2_2> I think C++ is an extension of C with more features
23:10:32 <sim-al2_2> Apparently it was orginally named "C with classes"
23:11:29 <Samu> what have you guys done with lzma and zlib? the technique you use? i must find where to read in lzo docs to do something similat to that of lzma and zlib
23:11:49 <_dp_> aha, but now there are so many features it almost completely changed twice language... twice...
23:12:07 <Samu> reading LZO.FAQ atm, "Can you give a cookbook for using pre-compressed data ?"
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