IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-25
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00:03:21 * drac_boy wonders if I should pound flygon with an aussie diesel? :P
00:03:29 <drac_boy> heh just being silly ;)
00:16:25 <drac_boy> anyway going off for now, have fun
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10:00:42 * andythenorth didn’t rage quit on the roads thing
10:01:07 <andythenorth> I have long had this idea about ‘trails’ or some other kind of off-highway road
10:01:21 <andythenorth> how would it work though?
10:01:50 <andythenorth> are roads and trails mutually exclusive?
10:01:56 <andythenorth> and can only cross with bridges?
10:02:16 <andythenorth> or do vehicles have some kind of compatibility table?
10:18:55 <Alberth> problems always arise when you start digging :p
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10:21:59 <andythenorth> well, I am quite happy to forget this part of the idea :)
10:22:04 <andythenorth> but not before considering if it’s good
10:22:48 <Supercheese> Roadtypes as railtypes O_o
10:22:51 <andythenorth> Roadtypes is a turkey
10:28:38 <andythenorth> trails might be TMWFTLB
10:29:03 <andythenorth> basically, you’d get to use mining trucks or similar, but on totally self-contained routes
10:29:52 <andythenorth> the novelty would be nice for a few games, but it’s a lot of code to touch for an inextensible novelty
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10:29:57 <Alberth> I'd suggest to keep things simple
10:30:54 <Alberth> to give it a chance of some use, I'd say you'd need to be able to connect to "normal" road too, however.
10:31:08 <andythenorth> and then you just build normal road everywhere...
10:31:29 <Alberth> that is the visual aspect
10:31:29 <andythenorth> or we have to have speed limits and power adjustments and axle loadings :P
10:31:41 <Supercheese> I'd settle for diagonal roads
10:31:51 <andythenorth> or we have similar to canal / ocean speed fraction, and that doesn’t work either for gameplay
10:31:53 <Alberth> Supercheese: ever tried drawing them?
10:32:16 <Alberth> I tried, it doesn't work
10:32:18 <Supercheese> probably easier than diagonal bridges though
10:32:35 <Alberth> even at diagrammatic level, just a grid of lines
10:32:52 <Alberth> bridges is perhaps the same problem
10:33:43 <andythenorth> roads would span 2 tile width in a way that rails don’t
10:33:44 <Alberth> andy, if you want speed stuff and axle stuff, I'd say the RV must be able to detect what road it is using, and from there, it's newgrf territory
10:34:38 <andythenorth> yeah, and I dislike all of that
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10:34:38 <Alberth> some people will freak on it :)
10:34:38 <andythenorth> it’s nice to have offered 16 railtypes and all the crazy stuff
10:34:38 <andythenorth> and that some players love it
10:34:38 <andythenorth> but it does nothing for the game I still enjoy playing
10:34:41 <Alberth> you're free to ignore road types :)
10:35:26 <andythenorth> also ignoring hard-coding a separate type of road
10:35:44 <andythenorth> that just leaves road/tram, with catenary on/off
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10:37:25 <frosch123> if you add varaction2 stuff to draw the default roadtypes, you could use townzones and stuff to draw dirt roads outside of roads
10:37:37 <andythenorth> yeah, I wondered about that
10:37:41 <frosch123> it would remove "highways", but i do not like them anyway
10:37:54 <andythenorth> iirc, there are some ‘missing’ things that would let roads be visually better with newgrf
10:37:59 <andythenorth> there’s some thing with snow also?
10:39:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: what’s your meaning of “highways” in this case? o_O
10:40:03 <frosch123> roadhog would be done
10:40:43 <frosch123> modern intercity transport
10:40:55 <frosch123> in contrast to 1850 intercity transport
10:41:07 <andythenorth> oh yeah, those 2 lane things are bollocks
10:41:35 <andythenorth> occasionally I build them to segregate fast and slow vehicles, but that’s work
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10:48:13 <andythenorth> I need to extend the road construction dropdown on global toolbar
10:49:03 <andythenorth> I considered fragmenting ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD everywhere, I think that sucks
10:49:09 <andythenorth> I want to pass a bool flag instead for catenary
10:50:31 <andythenorth> is there some cb registered as the handler for the dropdown?
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10:52:21 <Alberth> I like that kind of layout, not sure if it's useful though
10:54:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can connect to the toolbar whatever you like
10:59:44 <andythenorth> ok found the handler
11:03:16 * _johannes just cheated to get more money and then was rewarded with chairman status :)
11:08:42 <andythenorth> we have ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD
11:09:04 <frosch123> the toolbar does not need to follow that
11:09:14 <andythenorth> that’s what I’m trying to figure out how to do
11:09:17 <andythenorth> I’ve found ShowBuildRoadToolbar(Roadtype roadtype)
11:09:25 <frosch123> you can just make different button pass those types to the contruction toolbar
11:09:31 <andythenorth> but I can’t see how the toolbar calls it, so I can stick some conditional logic in
11:10:17 <frosch123> ToolbarBuildRoadClick <- err, that on
11:10:50 <frosch123> MenuClickBuildRoad <- together with that one
11:11:02 <frosch123> ToolbarBuildRoadClick defines the entries in the menu
11:11:06 <frosch123> MenuClickBuildRoad reacts to them
11:11:53 <andythenorth> but MenuClickBuildRoad uses _last_built_roadtype?
11:12:04 <andythenorth> not the one from the selection widget?
11:12:35 <frosch123> that is when you click the button instead of the dropdown menu
11:13:01 <frosch123> MenuClickBuildRoad(int index) <- index is the entry in the dropdown menu
11:13:22 <frosch123> you can just map it do the roadtype differently, and set your catenary flag as well
11:17:01 <andythenorth> ah, so I can just use the index knowing the list order
11:18:04 <andythenorth> where the DropDownListStringItem has ROADTYPE_TRAM as a parameter, is that returned to MenuClickBuildRoad also?
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11:18:20 <frosch123> ah yes, that's actually the "index" :p
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11:25:09 * andythenorth baby steps in C++
11:25:21 <andythenorth> does (RoadType)index convert that to a RoadType class, using a constant?
11:25:32 <andythenorth> and then pass the class around?
11:25:42 <frosch123> it's an enum, no class
11:26:14 <frosch123> it makes it compile, nothing more
11:26:21 <andythenorth> learning C++ years after learning scripting scripting languages is _really_ hard :)
11:26:24 <frosch123> it's still an integer
11:26:29 <andythenorth> so much apparent boilerplate :)
11:26:42 <andythenorth> nfo was easier, it’s completely not like a modern language
11:27:27 <frosch123> the past was always easier :)
11:28:26 <frosch123> "false memories" or something
11:29:13 <andythenorth> perceived difficulty
11:29:24 <andythenorth> nfo is perceived as ‘hard’, so any progress seems good
11:30:00 <frosch123> you would still have built a python layer around it
11:30:04 <frosch123> so what's the difference?
11:31:58 <andythenorth> I’m not going to build a python layer around C++? o_O
11:33:05 <andythenorth> can C++ functions have optional params?
11:34:50 <_dp_> some params can have default values
11:35:11 <_dp_> also you can overload function
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11:36:15 <_johannes> If you've accidently overwritten a savegame, and all autosaves are also not useful, is there any way to get it back?
11:36:48 <frosch123> check your daily backups :p
11:37:17 <_johannes> hmm I have a file with binary "OTTX" recovered with extundelete
11:37:24 <_johannes> however, the OTTX is in the middle of the file
11:38:22 <frosch123> OTTX are the first 4 bytes of an ottd savegame :)
11:38:38 <_johannes> ok, but what are the last bytes? :)
11:39:04 <frosch123> the next four bytes are the savegame version
11:39:18 <Wolf01> if you overwritten it there's really low chance you can recover a file like it was deleted and the memory addresses untouched
11:39:30 <frosch123> after that there repeat: four bytes for chunk name, four bytes for chunk length, chunk data
11:39:35 <frosch123> until 00 00 00 00 chunk
11:40:00 <frosch123> because OTTX is compressed
11:40:17 <frosch123> so, after OTTX and savegame version, you get an xz compressed data stream
11:40:20 * andythenorth has four menu items
11:40:31 <frosch123> no idea whether you can derive the size from that easily
11:40:34 <andythenorth> now I need to expose catenary_flag to the road building commands
11:41:07 <andythenorth> do I store the flag in the road construction toolbar somehow, or is it some global?
11:41:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a variable next to _last_build_roadtype
11:41:59 <frosch123> i.e. _last_build_roadcatenary
11:42:29 <andythenorth> currently I have ShowBuildRoadToolbar(_last_built_roadtype, catenary_flag);
11:42:35 <frosch123> that way it is restored when you just click the road toolbar, instead of the dropdown menu
11:43:50 <andythenorth> I am not sure how to pass the flag on from *ShowBuildRoadToolbar
11:43:59 <andythenorth> presumably I just pass it along the function chain?
11:44:17 <frosch123> just follow the roadtype
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11:49:20 <_johannes> frosch123: after the xz stream, does anything more follow?
11:58:44 <_johannes> frosch123: does the tool somehow help me finding the end of this xz stream?
11:59:22 <_johannes> ah, maybe just printing the file pointer position after the xz_... routine...
12:00:42 <frosch123> well, try to decompress your file starting from the OTTX
12:00:48 <frosch123> and see what comes out of it
12:00:57 <frosch123> if you get an xz error, i have no idea how to proceed
12:01:09 <frosch123> but you can likely check the uncompressed data up to the error
12:01:24 <frosch123> and whether it is a valid savegame usin the printhunk tool
12:09:07 <frosch123> you have two variables named _catenary_flag
12:09:18 <frosch123> the parameter shadows the global variable
12:13:36 <andythenorth> so when I declare bool _catenary_flag
12:13:43 <andythenorth> because it’s outside a block?
12:15:13 <andythenorth> ok I have it working
12:15:47 <andythenorth> “but globals are bad, ok” :P
12:15:56 <andythenorth> ^ the only formal computer science I ever learnt
12:19:06 <frosch123> yeah, ottd is pretty bad :)
12:20:17 <andythenorth> now I just need to fix tunnels and bridges, then tramway is done
12:20:30 <andythenorth> road doesn’t know how to draw catenary correctly, so that needs fixed
12:20:36 <_johannes> frosch123: pkgconfig says -llzma should suffice (like you explained in the source), but I get undefined references to inflateEnd() and similar functions...
12:21:21 <frosch123> it also contains the zlib compresseion for the OTTZ format
12:21:40 <frosch123> or remove the zlib functions
12:28:15 <_johannes> zpipe tells my the data was corrupt...
12:28:51 <frosch123> that's kind of expected, the question is how much it spit out before erroring out
12:29:34 <_johannes> oh, indeed, quite a lot...
12:30:24 <_johannes> though I can not open the output file with openttd: unexpected end of chunk
12:30:40 <frosch123> try it with the printhunk
12:30:57 <frosch123> as long as the printed chunk names are readable letters the data is fine
12:31:32 <frosch123> when they turn random, you know that you have reached invalid data
12:31:55 <frosch123> then either your restored file is missing data, or data is shuffled in the restored file
12:33:55 <_johannes> printhunk went up to MAP2, printed its bytes size, then returned with code 0
12:34:14 <frosch123> i guess that means you are missing a lot
12:34:22 <frosch123> iirc the MAP is at the start of the savegame
12:34:41 <frosch123> so, at best you can receive the heightmap, but no tracks or vehicles or anything
12:35:20 <_johannes> I have these: GLOG MAP2 MAPH MAPO MAPS MAPT
12:35:40 <_johannes> so this means there's data missing?
12:36:10 <frosch123> you have no vehicles, no stations, no industries, no settings, no nothnig
12:36:23 <frosch123> you barely have the heightmap data
12:36:24 <_johannes> that's strange, the compressed file had exactly the size that similar savegames (from that map) had
12:36:49 <frosch123> well, i am not sure what printhunk does when the data turns invalid
12:37:08 <frosch123> and you said zpipe terminated as well
12:37:25 <frosch123> so, apparently the data is invalid somewhere early
12:38:42 <_johannes> so extundelete sometimes dumps data that might be overwritten?
12:40:22 <frosch123> i have no idea what extundelete does
12:48:58 * andythenorth lost in tunnels + bridges
12:49:05 <andythenorth> I successfully turned catenary off :P
12:49:08 <andythenorth> but can’t turn it back on
12:52:55 <andythenorth> HasCatenary(ti->tile) seems to be false always
12:53:17 <frosch123> well, you might need a different bit for bridges
12:53:29 <frosch123> also there are many ways to build a bridge
12:53:41 <frosch123> like first build the bridge, then add tram and so on
12:54:02 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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13:09:23 <_johannes> ok, the missing chunks are probably located in other files that extundelete dumped, but since the content is compressed, there is probably no possibility to find out in which one?
13:10:13 <frosch123> trial and error :) but yeah
13:12:03 <_johannes> if you save a game under a different name then where you loaded the file, there's no "do you really want to overwrite...?" dialogue
13:12:09 <_johannes> shouldn't there be one?
13:12:45 <frosch123> it does not know what game it loaded last
13:12:57 <frosch123> but yes, there is no such check
13:13:02 <_johannes> that could be easily implemented
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13:36:31 <Wolf01> \o/ got the dynamic pivot view to work
13:38:30 <Wolf01> andythenorth, 42041: what should I build first? A or B model?
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14:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think trails should not be able to cross normal roads and be mutually incompatible.
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14:27:02 <_johannes> wasn't there a function to tell if a TrackDir variable was a real direction?
14:27:18 <_johannes> i.e. not TRACKDIR_BEGIN, TRACKDIR_INVALID or something else?
14:27:50 <frosch123> _BEGIN is always an alias to a valid value
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14:28:10 <andythenorth> Wolf01: build neither? o_O
14:28:12 <frosch123> so unless there is a IsTrackDirValid function, you just compare with TRACKDIR_:INVALID
14:28:19 <andythenorth> 42041 has a bad rep for some reason :)
14:28:45 <_johannes> ah BEGIN = X_NE , ok, did not see this
14:29:01 <andythenorth> also low on functions?
14:29:07 <andythenorth> but eh, it’s a racing truck, what’s to hate?
14:29:13 <Wolf01> I'm building the B model now
14:29:32 <Wolf01> yes, how many function do you expect for a car/truck?
14:30:01 <Wolf01> the truck has tilting cabin
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14:31:23 <Wolf01> it's a good source for parts, loads of 15 beams
14:31:58 <Wolf01> also half beams and bent beams
14:36:34 <_johannes> I get negative costs in yapf again, which lead to crashes
14:36:58 <_johannes> is it possible that you can not start a search from some element of tile x trackdir ?
14:38:44 <_johannes> IIRC there was some part of the code where the starting station got a negative value assigned, but I cannot find it anymore...
14:41:07 * andythenorth managed to trigger an assert
14:41:50 <andythenorth> I should probably learn how to debug
14:42:03 <andythenorth> or at least print values to console or something
14:42:28 <Alberth> printf("blah %d\n", number);
14:43:43 <Alberth> in case of real crashes, saving the core dump, and then using the debugger to get the stack-trace can be useful
14:43:50 <Wolf01> "%c", char and "%s", string and so on
14:44:17 <Alberth> as long as your system knows how to dump a corefile :p (mine doesn't currently)
14:44:38 <Alberth> %s isn't terribly useful in c++ :)
14:44:50 <Alberth> almost everything is a number :D
14:44:53 <Wolf01> or you use an IDE with a JIT debugger
14:45:23 <Alberth> run the program from a debugger also works :)
14:45:56 <frosch123> Alberth: since when are you using a kernel that cannot dump corefiles?
14:46:19 <Wolf01> Visual Studio? It seem to be able to attach a debugger even to the real world
14:47:18 <Alberth> frosch123: since they added 'smart' error reporting, where the repot system hijacks core dumps, and then the permission system refuses to let it make a copy for me, as it has no context of the crashed process anymore, or so
14:48:44 <Alberth> I should probably upgrade to the next release :)
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14:50:01 <Wolf01> whatsapp today is goinf full retard :|
14:50:50 <Wolf01> I need to keep the smartphone on with the app running foreground, because the web client looses the connection otherwise
14:51:37 <Alberth> seriously, your world doesn't need to be bigger than whatsapp
14:52:05 <Alberth> it's bad enough that you leave without notice for food, shopping, and sleeping
14:55:02 <andythenorth> are most of the messages here? “-> shops” ?
14:56:16 <andythenorth> also, newgrf landscape generator plugin? o_O :P
15:19:37 <Alberth> squirrel landscape generator might be doable
15:20:13 <Alberth> although the better solution is likely an open file format, and an external program
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16:19:19 <andythenorth> do I need to set the catenary bit on the tile for every case (plain road, station, tunnel, etc)?
16:19:37 * andythenorth tried sticking it after all the cases, but might not work
16:27:53 <andythenorth> oh, tunnelbridge is a different tile type to road? o_O
16:31:50 <Alberth> every tile type that must have a catenary, must have a bit
16:32:08 <andythenorth> ok so I need to extend *_map.h for all those types
16:32:22 <Alberth> and yeah, tunnelbridges != normal road, since bridges don't exist :)
16:33:22 <Alberth> you may have to find a place for the bit for each tile type separately
16:33:46 <Alberth> don't know how much of that is aligned between different tile types
16:35:46 <andythenorth> I picked m1 7 because it looked clear for the cases I need
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17:02:42 <supermop> is there a practical reason to buy a font in ttf vs otf?
17:05:41 <Alberth> ha, even the site matches with your nick :p
17:09:18 * andythenorth -> food, shopping, sleeping
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17:23:35 <_johannes> can someone please help me with YAPF?
17:23:53 <_johannes> I have really no clue where the negative costs come from
17:24:09 <_johannes> Where are the costs initialized to the nodes?
17:26:34 <Alberth> add assert(cost >= 0); somewhere, wait for the crash, then analyze the stack trace
17:28:48 <_johannes> the question is: where :P
17:29:28 <Alberth> I'd say as soon as you compute cost
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17:30:19 <Alberth> maybe even do that for both the running total and the estimate too
17:31:08 <_johannes> ah maybe I could set a watchpoint...
17:31:36 <Alberth> I don't use debuggers very much :p
17:35:36 <Alberth> not sure how much that helps though, A* code generally doesn't make much sense without pretty 2d-ish picture
18:36:13 <supermop> not sure how to think about a place near the office with a lunch special that involves a pint of anything on draft
18:36:57 <supermop> i mean i of course had the beer, but seems a half pint would be more appropriate for a lunch break
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18:50:08 <supermop> still need an iconographic, monochromatic base set that can run in the background at work without looking too obvious
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19:21:00 <V453000> so who read friday farts yet?
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20:50:21 <V453000> is train cookie enough?
20:56:12 <Wolf01> "Redo of the train graphics and fixing the train distances, so they are whole tiles and vertical and horizontal distances are the same." this looks a lot of work for V
20:57:21 <Wolf01> nooo the spidertron has been postponed :(
20:58:40 <Wolf01> also... jobs... too bad I'm focused on PHP and C# now
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21:56:28 <supermop> would a vehicle with 0hp still accelerate on slopes?
21:57:17 <sim-al2> I think there's a minimum speed vehicles will do, like 2km/h
21:57:55 <Alberth> 1km/h, but yeah, not 0 :)
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21:58:15 <supermop> but if it started at 2kmh, then went down 4 slopes, would it gain speed?
21:58:36 <Alberth> up to speed limit, afaik
21:59:13 <Alberth> point is mostly that you must be able to bring any engine into a depot at all times
21:59:42 <Alberth> and since you can't tow, it must run on its own :)
21:59:50 <supermop> could it be made impossible for vehicle to travel uphil?
21:59:52 <sim-al2> Of course, if the vehicle is going 1km/h, it can take a while :)
22:00:09 <sim-al2> (especially if a train stalls out going up hill)
22:00:24 <Alberth> yep, I have had that even with normal engines
22:00:47 <Alberth> too long train, and too heavy, breakdown in the middle of the hill :)
22:01:26 <supermop> can hp change on load %
22:01:30 <Alberth> I don't think you can prevent it going up, other than by powerless or so
22:02:15 <supermop> so unloaded 'log' has 10,000 hp and log with load >0% has 0 hp
22:02:16 <Alberth> don't know, but I wouldn't expect it
22:02:45 <Alberth> isn't that what xussrset caused desync with?
22:03:05 <supermop> so log can slide down a flume but return invisibly to top of flume to pick up another "log"
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23:47:00 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
23:47:54 <drac_boy> doing ok here..just sorting a lot of images tho :-s
23:53:23 <drac_boy> btw if you don't mind the earlier subject heres something else I found while looking up a little more ... that strange BR 10100 multi-engines locomotive actually ran well for a while but eventually some major mechanical blowouts failed it for good
23:54:42 <drac_boy> I still think that big flat exposed radiator gives it a bit of an odd look :)
23:57:16 <drac_boy> at least it was a 'good' one-off .. compared to eg the NH 'train-x' lightweight set having a major fire problem on its press run (why is that never a good sign anyway?) and apparently didn't even last much normal service at all
23:59:24 <drac_boy> oh or there of course is that previous mention of santa fe 'BEEP' rebuild locomotive that was an one-off too but lasted a very long time
continue to next day ⏵
