IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-24
⏴ go to previous day
00:01:41 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
00:46:43 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
01:02:46 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
04:04:04 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd
04:31:52 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd
04:54:43 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
06:24:48 *** Flygon__ has joined #openttd
07:25:14 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
07:55:05 *** ConductorCat has joined #openttd
08:13:17 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
08:42:27 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
08:42:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
09:44:46 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
09:46:29 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd
10:00:36 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
10:00:40 * Flygon goes and gets more Pizza
10:00:49 <Supercheese> But is it.... the Triangle Wave of Doom?
10:09:07 <Wolf01> you seem to be a strange breed of pokemon... a flygon with a breloom made a linoone shaped pikachu?
10:10:58 <Flygon> I've had this name for 13 years
10:11:06 <Flygon> And 'flygon' was already taken on YouTub
10:11:09 <Flygon> So I needed a placeholder <_>
10:11:29 <Wolf01> why not "TheMightyFlygon"?
10:12:52 <Wolf01> btw, nice job with that song
10:13:28 <Flygon> Eh, I just followed instructions
10:13:43 <Flygon> The C64 tunes KapteinKUK uploaded worked better
10:13:44 <Wolf01> what software did you use?
10:13:53 <Flygon> "TheMightyFlygon" sounds like an autistic dude :P
10:14:26 <Flygon> Needs to be run in a C# dev environment because... derp
10:18:34 <Flygon> And incredibly CPU intense
10:18:46 <Wolf01> the part I don't get is how to record each channel separately
10:19:57 <Flygon> It's in my description xP
10:20:02 <Flygon> What do you plan to record from/
10:21:12 <Wolf01> nah, I won't do that, at most I'll open a .mid file and record the channels from there :P
10:21:56 <Wolf01> about 20 years ago I played a lot with midi files (I have a midi keyboard too)
10:22:13 <Flygon> Uhm, not sure how to help there
10:22:21 <Flygon> Can't be too hard to export one channel at a time to a .wav, tho O_o
10:22:28 <Flygon> Jesus, 20 years ago...
10:22:40 <Flygon> 20 years ago, I couldn't even write
10:24:10 <Wolf01> just fyi, I played the first gen of pokemon when I was already in middle school
10:24:26 <Flygon> Middle School doesn't exist here :P
10:24:34 <Flygon> Pokemon taught me how to read better than any book
10:25:51 <Wolf01> I learnt a bit of french playing zelda: link's awakening... I purchased it and it was in french :(
10:26:17 <Flygon> Yeah, that makes sense too
10:27:44 <Wolf01> then I sold it to purchase the DX english version for gameboy color :P
10:28:38 <Wolf01> but stop going offtopic.. lets talk about factorio XD
10:30:50 <Flygon> atm, trying to calculate in my head how to stack 9 channels
10:31:15 <Flygon> 2 Square Wave, 1 Noise, 5 FM, 1 Sample
10:31:25 <Flygon> Thinking of doing 2 columns, 4 rows
10:31:40 <Flygon> With the Sample channel taking up two columns in the bottom fifth row
10:31:48 <Flygon> But I dunno how to C hastag
10:32:50 <Wolf01> I'm trying to develop a UWP feed reader...
10:37:48 <Flygon> Sorry, my brain's gone a bit messy
10:37:55 <Wolf01> universal windows platform
10:40:22 <Flygon> Here's hoping my source code mods work
10:54:35 <Flygon> 'An unhandled exception of type 'System.OutOfMemoryException' occurred in SidWiz.exe'
10:56:49 <Wolf01> eh, let's talk about I'm not able to load ANY rss.xml because "invalid char: Line 1 at position 1"
10:57:13 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd
10:57:14 <Flygon> I'm trying to figure out why it's crashing at just 800MB used
10:57:47 <Wolf01> maybe it's the app which can't handle more than 800MB?
10:58:16 <Flygon> This is where my lack of C# knowledge comes in
10:58:58 <Flygon> What's the 32-bit version of 'long'?
11:01:00 <Flygon> I can't seem to make the buffer longer
11:08:35 <Flygon> I'm dumping 9 channels
11:08:39 <Flygon> In 5 separate sessions
11:27:00 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd
11:29:42 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
11:44:30 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
11:49:01 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
11:49:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
11:52:16 <andythenorth> ho frosch123 as well :)
11:52:23 <andythenorth> are you all finished early for Easter or something?
11:52:50 <Alberth> mostly I decided to take a day off today :)
11:53:03 <Alberth> tomorrow I am off already
11:59:57 <frosch123> oh, i have to do them as well
12:03:26 * andythenorth did his taxes in December
12:04:25 * andythenorth might have learnt everything that’s interesting to learn about newgrf
12:04:33 <andythenorth> but is C++ beyond me?
12:04:45 <andythenorth> I know my programming skills are limited :P
12:05:53 <Alberth> c++11 is pretty manageable
12:06:05 <Alberth> as long as you stay away from templates :p
12:06:15 <Alberth> but openttd isn't c++11 :p
12:06:15 <andythenorth> does that help me patch OpenTTD? o_O
12:06:59 <Alberth> openttd is closer to C + some classes
12:08:07 <Alberth> what do you aim to do? make another airport patch? :)
12:09:11 <andythenorth> I’d sooner learn Haskell than that :)
12:09:26 * andythenorth wants to poke at unpowered tramways
12:09:31 <andythenorth> and by implication, powered roads
12:10:24 <Alberth> don't understand that implication, but sounds fine
12:11:03 <andythenorth> when choosing to build a road or tramline, ‘catenary’ would be a boolean toggle
12:11:46 <andythenorth> newgrf RVs and trams would require power, or not
12:13:40 <andythenorth> dunno if it means 1 bit per tile or 4
12:14:02 <andythenorth> I think it could be done in a way that doesn’t block a future RoadTypes implementation
12:14:11 <andythenorth> which no-one is ever going to do, but still
12:19:38 <andythenorth> no this can’t be done
12:20:09 <andythenorth> in MP, player could remove another player’s catenary, rendering the route unpowered :(
12:24:06 <andythenorth> unless the catenary is owned, but that is a lot of bits
12:24:38 <Alberth> doesn't really fit with shared road does it?
12:28:05 <frosch123> just add a separate transparency option for tram catenary
12:28:17 <frosch123> who cares whether there is catenary or not
12:28:24 <frosch123> i guess you just don't want to see it
12:29:10 <andythenorth> I was also interested in powered / unpowered
12:29:17 <andythenorth> I could make a newgrf that bins the catenary :)
12:30:55 <_dp_> hi! is there really no way to show GS popup(aka question) to just one client, not whole company?
12:31:19 * andythenorth has made roads with catenary
12:33:12 <Alberth> game doesn't have clients, only companies, afaik
12:34:41 <_dp_> btw, window title text centering is offset by close button it seems, looks off when whole popup text is centered (i.e. always :)
12:35:56 <_dp_> that sucks, coz I want to react to one player's action, don't want to confuse whole company :(
12:36:42 <andythenorth> modify a sign, which is monitored by an admin bot, which uses irc hooks to send them a message in chat
12:37:08 <_dp_> I can send message in chat, no problem, but popup would be better
12:37:31 * andythenorth ventures into UI code, a place never been before
12:37:35 <_dp_> actually, standard red error window would be perfect)
12:37:45 <Alberth> how does one player action not affect the entire company?
12:38:08 <_dp_> he tries to build something that isn't allowed for example
12:38:36 <_dp_> I cancel his action and want to show popup, pretty much like ttd itself does
12:39:08 <_dp_> I mean, it doesn't show error to whole company when you try to destroy other's infrastructure, right? ;)
12:39:44 <Alberth> simply not allowing isn't enough? :o
12:40:37 <_dp_> needs some feedback at least
12:48:41 <_dp_> was even thinking of faking some invalid actions to get error popups but they're hard to get reliably
12:54:26 <Wolf01> meh, how I'm supposed to check the last updated time of a feed if it reports 01/01/1601?
12:57:56 <Alberth> ha, would be fun if that would contain actual news of that date :p
12:58:20 <Alberth> but if the date/time changes, who cares about the actual value?
13:00:22 <Wolf01> I wanted to save a rss.xml for offline usage and update it only when the connection is available and the online feed is updated
13:01:20 <Alberth> just check for change? or doesn't it change either?
13:01:32 <Wolf01> but I think it's too much and I'll let the app download every time the feed
13:02:02 <andythenorth> I added a widget to road construction toolbar
13:02:19 <andythenorth> I also triggered an assert when opening the tram toolbar :)
13:03:22 <Wolf01> ok, now the big problem is to get the image from the summary and render it
13:03:30 <Alberth> lots of magic going on in several windows :)
13:03:33 <Wolf01> because every feed can be different
13:04:02 <Wolf01> did you add it with a grf?
13:04:44 <Wolf01> oh, plain old c++ code
13:04:59 <Alberth> hacking in the belly of the beast :)
13:05:19 <Wolf01> I was figuring out how OTTD improved to be able to add stuff such gui buttons with a grf
13:05:30 <andythenorth> segfault seems cured by adding the widget to tram toolbar also
13:06:04 <Alberth> I don't know all those details :)
13:07:45 <andythenorth> now if I _just_ can get the widget to cause a bit to be set or not
13:08:05 <andythenorth> DrawTramCatenary() will take care of the drawing, if fed the right bits
13:10:37 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
13:10:42 <Alberth> in OnClick, catch clicking the button, and do something bit-ish
13:11:47 <andythenorth> sounds like UI coding :o
13:12:33 <Alberth> well, I think you have to make a command for it, so it can be synced in MP
13:12:48 <Alberth> or extend road building or so
13:15:28 <_dp_> haha, ran into that tram assert myself few months ago)
13:16:27 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:17:57 <andythenorth> around L650 in road_gui.cpp, DoCommandP(…)
13:18:17 <andythenorth> seems to be where _catenary_button_clicked should be handled
13:18:57 <_dp_> yeah, my was segfaulting when pressing ctrl so probably a slightly different assert...
13:19:13 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
13:19:15 <_dp_> but it was caused by adding button either
13:19:42 * andythenorth doesn’t understand the bit shifts
13:20:48 <Flygon> But bit shifting is the raw juice of a multi-channel Z80 tracker :D
13:24:09 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
13:24:54 <_dp_> there are some handy functions in bitmath_func.hpp so you may get away without shifts)
13:25:39 <andythenorth> there are existing shifts
13:25:45 *** FR^2 is now known as Guest8997
13:32:20 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
13:38:28 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
13:41:03 <andythenorth> _one_way_button_clicked << 5
13:41:11 <andythenorth> is shifting 5 bits right?
13:41:37 <Wolf01> meh, SyndicationFeed is returning the value for the summary which is html as text and I can't do anything :E
13:41:38 <andythenorth> and this is ORing them? _place_road_flag | (_cur_roadtype << 3) | (_one_way_button_clicked << 5)
13:42:03 <andythenorth> so I might just add | (_catenary_button_clicked << 6) or such?
13:43:53 <Alberth> x << 5 is 5 bit shift right indeed
13:45:07 <Alberth> technically ORing maps all bits in position i onto each other, if at least one is 1, the result is 1, else 0
13:45:56 <Alberth> but likely here, each value bits set that no other value uses
13:46:13 <Alberth> *but likely here, each value has bits set that no other value uses
13:46:22 <andythenorth> that’s my hope :)
13:46:30 <Alberth> you just merge several values into one integer
13:46:31 <andythenorth> I can’t find if this is a byte or such
13:46:42 <andythenorth> nor where they are unpacked (yet)
13:47:01 <Alberth> _* are global variables
13:47:31 <Alberth> _one_way_button_clicked sounds like 0/1
13:49:20 <andythenorth> this looks promising
13:49:21 <andythenorth> DisallowedRoadDirections toggle_drd = Extract<DisallowedRoadDirections, 6, 2>(p1);
13:49:35 <Alberth> 62:static RoadType _cur_roadtype; <-- it's an RoadType enum
13:50:24 <Alberth> which is 0/1 or invalid
13:50:39 <Alberth> the latter is probably shotdown somewhere before?
13:55:18 *** supermop has joined #openttd
14:14:24 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
14:21:24 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
14:30:56 *** ConductorCat has joined #openttd
14:42:09 <andythenorth> lots of Extract<SomeBits
14:42:19 * andythenorth wonders how to use that
14:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's usually for unpacking the parameters
14:49:59 * _dp_ finds shifts easier to use and understand than Some<Weird>(Templates)
14:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> supposedly easier to read/debug than bitstuffing
15:03:10 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:16:30 <andythenorth> this is impenetrable to me: DisallowedRoadDirections toggle_drd = Extract<DisallowedRoadDirections, 6, 2>(p1);
15:16:45 <andythenorth> although I should probably follow back p1 to find what it is :P
15:21:14 <Alberth> cmd_helper.h defines Extract, which eventually does GB(p1, 6, 2)
15:21:51 <Alberth> ie take bit 6 and 7 from p1 ((p1 >> 6) & 3)
15:26:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
15:28:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: read the comments :p
15:28:56 <frosch123> the comments of each Cmd function specify the bit patterns
15:30:29 * andythenorth didn’t scroll his ‘find’ results window :)
15:36:19 <andythenorth> so I need to stuff a catenary bit in somehow
15:40:23 *** Klanticus has joined #openttd
15:40:27 <Wolf01> \o/ I was obliterated by a hundred of spitters and biters
15:41:04 * andythenorth can’t find where CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD is defined
15:42:03 <frosch123> DEF_CMD(CmdBuildLongRoad,CMD_DEITY | CMD_NO_WATER | CMD_AUTO, CMDT_LANDSCAPE_CONSTRUCTION), // CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD
15:42:33 <andythenorth> how does a comment cause the name to be assigned? :o
15:42:49 <Alberth> 201: CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD, ///< build a complete road (not a "half" one) <-- that is the actual definition
15:43:06 <Alberth> what crappy text search tool do you use :)
15:43:17 <andythenorth> nah, I find them
15:43:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: the entries in _command_proc_table must have the same order as in the enum
15:43:21 <andythenorth> I just don’t understand them
15:43:35 <andythenorth> I was looking for assignments, I didn’t think about list positions
15:43:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:43:56 <Alberth> bu the entry by frosch123 is correct, each command exists once as function and once as enum value
15:44:25 <frosch123> its kind of ottd's coding style to put the enum in the comment, if the order is defined by it :)
15:44:47 <andythenorth> CmdBuildRoad is starting to look hopeful
15:45:03 <frosch123> i.e. basically you just need to know it :p
15:45:25 <andythenorth> Long looks more confusing
15:46:09 <andythenorth> how many bits in @param p1 for CmdBuildRoad
15:46:18 <andythenorth> or are the parameter sizes declared somewhere?
15:47:05 <andythenorth> that’s probably what uint32 is doing :P
15:47:07 <frosch123> CmdBuildLongRoad just calls CmdBuildRoad
15:47:33 <Alberth> uint32 means 32 bits :)
15:47:34 <supermop> sorry to nitpick andythenorth but chile and argentina are about as tropical as england is
15:47:50 <supermop> maybe south american basic is better?
15:48:13 <andythenorth> I play with trees on invisible
15:48:17 <Alberth> andy just wanted England + desert :)
15:48:22 <andythenorth> and I patched my openttd
15:48:28 <andythenorth> so sub-tropic landscape isn’t stupid
15:48:44 <andythenorth> if you people can’t follow my settings, I can’t help you :P
15:54:51 <andythenorth> so I can just dump more bits in?
15:54:59 <andythenorth> or rather, I can just consume more bits?
15:55:19 <frosch123> if they are not mentioned in the comments
15:55:25 <frosch123> there are expected to be available
16:01:17 <argoneus> so what are you guys doing?
16:01:28 <argoneus> are you having this strange thing called "fun"?
16:02:35 <frosch123> no, noone got kicked in months
16:02:43 <andythenorth> still time today
16:05:39 <andythenorth> DisallowedRoadDirections is a bad example to copy, assuming I want a simple bool?
16:05:51 * andythenorth trying to add a HasCatenary bit and set it
16:14:00 <V453000> merkel akbar, yoloswag uwot m8
16:17:00 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
16:41:03 <andythenorth> _catenary_button_clicked << 7
16:41:11 <andythenorth> into parameter p1
16:41:18 <andythenorth> can then be read with HasBit(p1, 7)
16:42:05 <frosch123> don't forget to forward it from CmdBuildLongRoad to CmdBuildRoad
16:43:54 <andythenorth> that’s the problem
16:51:08 <andythenorth> this is rocket science :P
16:51:43 <andythenorth> I can now build road and tramway with or without catenary
16:51:56 <andythenorth> appearance is borked for roads, I can probably fix that
16:52:13 <andythenorth> and there’s no ‘convert’ function, but one-way roads has that
16:54:04 <supermop> steam trams and trolley busses
16:54:06 <andythenorth> it’s probably a dead end tbh
16:54:36 <supermop> dead end, or cul-de-sac with OHLE?
16:54:50 <andythenorth> this won’t be more than a novelty patch
16:55:10 <andythenorth> when the correct way to do it is using the RoadTypes spec to detect if the RoadType provides catenary or not
16:55:43 <frosch123> "the roadtypes spec" :)
16:56:52 <andythenorth> and there is the problem that we must be able to provide multiple types of catenary on same tile also
16:57:40 <andythenorth> because IRL trams and RVs use different systems
16:57:57 <andythenorth> ach, this is why I never try to patch stuff :(
17:43:45 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:49:51 <andythenorth> the catenary is just some sticks and 1px wires in 1x zoom
17:50:18 <andythenorth> does it matter about different types?
17:50:30 <andythenorth> I guess 4x zoom needs the details
17:51:17 <frosch123> are there different types?
17:51:24 <Alberth> you're going to build a simulation?
17:51:44 <frosch123> it's pretty much one cable in 99.9% of cases
17:51:51 <frosch123> and then some random stuff to hold it in place
17:52:07 <Alberth> kind of poles, wire above or not, etc
17:53:01 <andythenorth> thing is, it just makes it boring eh?
17:53:16 <andythenorth> just demotivates working on patches / features
17:53:47 <Alberth> have a tramtype with optional catenary, and a road type with optional catenary?
17:54:13 <Alberth> or just the combination as one road type
17:54:19 <frosch123> make road and tram types dependent?
17:54:44 <frosch123> that is there are 256 roadtypes, some are road, some are tram, some are both
17:55:02 <frosch123> and a clever gui which allows selecting them in a better way than in a long list
17:55:27 <frosch123> it would mean that you cannot combine road and tram types from different grfs
17:55:30 <Alberth> if people want to have 3 tramtypes and 4 road types in that list, go ahead
17:55:36 <frosch123> but would that work ever anyway?
17:56:51 <andythenorth> I thought maybe I could just patch this as a simple visual feature
17:56:58 <andythenorth> then maybe have vehicles be powered / not powered
17:57:10 <andythenorth> using same mechanic as railtypes, but faked on the OTTD side
17:57:33 <andythenorth> then patch so that catenary / not catenary was actuall ROAD, ELRD, TRAM, ELTM
17:57:41 <andythenorth> then let someone else make RoadTypes :P
17:58:08 <andythenorth> with all the attendant need to redraw drive in road stops, and bridge and tunnel support, and fix crossings and all the other crap :)
17:58:08 <Alberth> what exactly is the problem with road types?
17:58:22 <frosch123> that noone knows what they shall do :)
17:58:24 <andythenorth> implementing it, or conceptually?
17:58:45 <frosch123> i am already pretty lost with railtypes
17:58:49 <andythenorth> conceptually (1) it’s barely useful (2) whenever it’s discussed, the arguments about spec drive away all motivation to work on it
17:59:14 <andythenorth> the only case I can see for more than one roadtype is an off-highway variant
17:59:24 <andythenorth> and that only to make routing hard in confined spaces
17:59:44 <andythenorth> all other cases (variable speed limits and such) are so boring it’s snooze inducing
18:00:27 <frosch123> the only interesting thing about railtypes is the visuals
18:01:00 <Alberth> dirt roads versus normal roads versus high way is not visually interesting?
18:01:01 <andythenorth> I like using them to force some gameplay choices
18:01:13 <andythenorth> metro = high capacity per tile, no other vehicles on that route
18:01:17 <andythenorth> narrow gauge = cheap
18:01:24 <andythenorth> rail / elrail = most of your routes
18:04:31 <andythenorth> once I figured out passing the bit through CmdBuildLongRoad it wasn’t hard
18:04:46 <andythenorth> it needs station support, probably crossings, savegames etc
18:04:52 <andythenorth> it uses m1 bit 7
18:06:08 *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:07:12 <frosch123> Alberth: also, noone ever wrote anything down. it's all just chat ruminating stuff over and over :)
18:07:28 <andythenorth> I have copies of at least one spec
18:07:37 <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s viable
18:07:41 <andythenorth> or interesting tbh
18:07:55 * andythenorth is just a bit grumpy
18:08:22 <andythenorth> I could probably make this work, but I expect it will be rejected because it consumes some of the bits needed for a theoretical implementation of roadtypes
18:08:22 <Alberth> it should be mostly visually oriented imho
18:08:52 <Alberth> tbh I would expect any future roadtypes handles catenary, right?
18:09:06 <andythenorth> so bits can be migrated?
18:09:21 <andythenorth> if the bit is set, provide ELTM
18:09:24 <andythenorth> if not provide TRAM
18:09:35 <Alberth> no point in having several different bits for catenary
18:09:38 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
18:09:47 * andythenorth tries to make crossings and stops work
18:10:40 <Alberth> TRAM and ELTM already exist, or do you make those up?
18:14:23 <andythenorth> there is some rudimentary implementation of a RoadType class and labels
18:15:11 <andythenorth> but it’s not like railtypes
18:18:05 <andythenorth> crossings and roadstops work
18:18:19 <andythenorth> drive-in roadstops I am not attempting :)
18:24:04 <andythenorth> there are slapdash variable names etc there
18:24:09 <andythenorth> and the icon is one-way road :P
18:24:18 <andythenorth> I think a toolbar toggle is *not* the way to do it
18:25:03 <andythenorth> be better to extend the road construction menu: Road | Tramway | Electrified Tramway
18:28:12 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
18:36:48 <supermop> electrified dirt road?
18:38:06 * andythenorth won’t be patching that
18:39:33 * andythenorth wonders if HasCatenary or HasPower is better for the tile
18:41:49 <Alberth> power can exist in more forms, right?
18:42:14 <Alberth> while your bit only toggles the catenary
18:42:17 <andythenorth> whereas this is used for drawing
18:42:19 <sim-al2> Clearly we need third-rail roads
18:42:45 <Alberth> ie "powered" also prevents monorail engine at normal rail
18:43:27 <Alberth> which makes powered more a "can drive here"
18:44:19 <andythenorth> it was tunnels that triggered the question
18:45:04 <andythenorth> in trunk, tram tunnels appear to no draw any catenary
18:45:35 <andythenorth> it’s just very hard to see
18:46:06 <Alberth> we need rainbow coloured catenary
18:46:42 <andythenorth> that is achievable
18:46:49 <sim-al2> Ohhhhhh, that sounds fun
18:49:26 <Alberth> we can ask a few yetis to paint it
18:49:43 <andythenorth> tunnelbridge_cmd eh
18:49:57 <Alberth> sounds like the right one :)
18:50:26 <Alberth> wormhole_cmd would have been nicer :)
18:52:37 <sim-al2> Then we would need Stargate shaped tunnel portals :p
18:55:20 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
18:55:32 <andythenorth> bridges aren’t a tile :D
18:55:36 <sim-al2> And bridges that are shaped like 90's computer animated tubes, or maybe just wires
18:55:40 <andythenorth> HasCatenary(ti->tile) won’t work
18:56:12 <frosch123> DrawBridgeMiddle has for sure already access to the northern bridge tile
19:00:41 *** Guest8997 is now known as FR^2
19:13:05 <andythenorth> need to pass _catenary_button_clicked through PlaceRoadStop() and such
19:25:17 <andythenorth> this construction toolbar catenary toggle idea is a turkey
19:25:22 <andythenorth> be much better to split ROADTYPE_TRAM
19:26:31 <andythenorth> it’s only used 108 times :P
19:35:01 <andythenorth> well no actually
19:35:32 <andythenorth> bah, railtypes never will map to roadtypes
19:36:16 <andythenorth> because tram and road inescapably require drawing, vehicle movement, station choices
19:36:51 <andythenorth> ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD will always be needed as fundamental types
19:37:21 <andythenorth> #openttd, once again andythenorth’s internal monologue
19:40:03 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
19:48:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
19:50:37 <supermop> idk power, cable vault, stuff like that should just be painted on to the RoW
19:51:01 <supermop> build pavement, or rail, or one on top of the other
19:51:10 <supermop> then build wires orver it you want
19:51:47 <supermop> build wires onto RoW as you would build track over road?
19:52:02 <supermop> except with prohibition on building wires over nothing?
19:52:16 <andythenorth> toggling wires on and off is weird I think
19:53:30 <supermop> dropdown> build road/build tramway/build trolley wire
19:54:24 <andythenorth> well it’s an idea
19:54:39 <andythenorth> but that makes building electric trams really tedious, no?
19:57:40 <supermop> dragging the build cursor twice around town is like 10 sec extra
19:58:39 <andythenorth> that’s quite a lot :)
20:00:38 <supermop> feels more honest than two separate types
20:02:32 <frosch123> how about splitting the main toolbar button?
20:02:55 <frosch123> [build railway] [build road] [build tram] [build canal]
20:03:08 <andythenorth> well that might be a viable patch
20:03:12 <frosch123> then the build tram and build road can have the types in the dropdown (with, without catenary)
20:03:21 <andythenorth> it would improve gameplay, irrespective of my patch idea
20:03:22 <frosch123> without weirdly mixing road and tram types
20:04:00 <andythenorth> would we also split the road vehicles menu?
20:04:23 <frosch123> true, that part would be weird
20:05:02 <frosch123> however, this always annoyed me: in the station window there are separate icons for bus and truck, but not for trams
20:05:16 <andythenorth> it’s a bit janky eh?
20:06:12 <andythenorth> hmm, is it not just a truck icon?
20:06:27 <andythenorth> oh different window perhaps
20:06:56 <frosch123> the bus/truck differentiation is very inconsistent :)
20:07:00 <frosch123> there is only one vehicle list
20:07:08 <frosch123> separate icons in station list and station sign
20:07:26 <frosch123> only one icon in for ordered vehicles in the station window
20:07:37 <frosch123> different counting of vehicles in company gui, network gui and so on
20:08:18 * andythenorth wonders if a catenary toggle on the construction toolbar actually is best solution
20:08:23 <andythenorth> having considered quite a few others
20:09:24 <frosch123> i guess i would trash the bus icon
20:09:32 <andythenorth> yeah, that seems nonsense
20:09:37 <frosch123> and separate trams for road vehicles in all places
20:09:47 <andythenorth> we don’t have split trains / boats / planes for pax / freight
20:10:00 <andythenorth> seems like over-diligence from the stops being split
20:10:00 <frosch123> not sure about vehicle lists
20:10:32 <frosch123> splitting the list into rv and tram lists would make the names weird
20:10:42 <frosch123> since the naming "road vehicle 1 2 3" would still be shared
20:11:03 <andythenorth> could change that? o_O
20:11:05 <frosch123> though it is also shared with groups, right? and noone complained about that
20:11:18 <frosch123> though maybe that is only because people usually name groups
20:11:24 * andythenorth never names groups
20:11:32 <andythenorth> they’re just for autoreplace filtering :P
20:11:47 <frosch123> hmm, actually... trams and rv could be named independently while still being in the same pool
20:12:02 <andythenorth> is it just a string prefix?
20:12:25 <andythenorth> ach, all the places though :)
20:12:37 <frosch123> i was more thinking about the function that assigns a unique "unitnumber" to a pool item
20:13:06 <andythenorth> ‘road vehicle destroyed in collision’
20:13:11 <andythenorth> ‘road vehicle is lost'
20:18:56 <andythenorth> the toolbar toggle is not the best solution
20:19:08 <andythenorth> the menu on the main toolbar would be best
20:19:20 <andythenorth> but I could see how to patch the toggle :P
20:34:38 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
20:41:54 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
20:42:04 <drac_boy> sim-a12 you the trainnut there atm? :P
20:42:11 <drac_boy> or how about you flygon :p
20:43:39 <drac_boy> btw I found the article about that steam locomotive being cut down due to an ancient tunnel...
20:45:10 <drac_boy> seem the line was originally worked by Johnson 2F's (small-boiler 0-6-0 from look of one photo) and they were getting old so two 'Standard 2MT' were sent to shed for cab roof reductions among other things to work the route with till traffic finally closed 1966
20:45:29 <drac_boy> the funny thing is the tab of page is titled 'tunnel vision' and the article title is 'cut to fit!' :)
20:46:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: suddenly I am tired and it’s bedtime :)
20:51:00 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
20:51:47 <drac_boy> if you're wondering tho. the two 2MT that were cut down are 78013 and 78028
20:53:18 <sim-al2> The locomotive in the first pic also has an extra dome between the steam(?) dome and the stack
20:54:54 <sim-al2> Assuming the bearing boxes don't flood too quckly, and the cylinder kept clear, there should be no problem until water hits the firebox metal...
20:55:44 <drac_boy> well crews usually only think its a problem if the water is getting to the cab floor .. but oil fired locomotives somehow have been known to literally run slight submerged...! (sealed with no doors, so go figure)
20:55:56 <drac_boy> crazy old days I guess heh
20:56:26 <sim-al2> Shock cooling the firebox seems like a bad idea, but the boiler would be even worse
20:57:14 <sim-al2> Not to mention, water doesn't really compress, and letting water flood the cylinders will end badly
20:58:56 <sim-al2> Hmm, I wonder how much traction you have at that point
20:59:09 <sim-al2> Water cooled brakes though!
21:00:38 <drac_boy> well as most of the weight package is above the chassis (save for any low slung-between-drivers fireboxes which were a bit rare by then) so even at 15kph theres still some traction weight for a few good wagons
21:00:57 <sim-al2> It's not a C, but rather an AAA
21:02:21 <sim-al2> I don't think they will float much, but certainly that much water will hurt traction. Normally, the first set of wheels of a rail vehicle will vaporize/force the water off the rails
21:03:03 <sim-al2> Many American locomotives have a button to apply sand to only the leading bogie
21:04:30 <sim-al2> GE took the idea to the logical conclusion, and the High Tractive Effort option AC locomotives have little air nozzles mounted on the bogie that try to clean the rail before the first wheelset
21:05:08 <drac_boy> btw unrelated but I found one photo in recent magazine .. and you wouldn't guess the description ... a train hit a packed straight body truck leaving it all maligned but heres the thing "..after ten minutes the train then resumed its way like nothing happened, how long would it had taken today?"
21:06:37 <sim-al2> I suppose legal concerns weren't really on the mind of the dispatcher
21:07:25 <drac_boy> oh yeah sim-a12 some of the express specific locomotives (especially the big NYC Niagara too) did have a separate water pipe between locomotive and tender to wash sand off the rails to lower the friction for the coaches following behind .. usually on uphill curves
21:08:27 <drac_boy> considering that these kind of locomotives usually could scoop water the fact of dumping water onto the ground for short times didn't seem as worrisome
21:09:23 <drac_boy> btw about the dispatcher I think its more like "we only got one line, lets just keep trains moving. the police can talk to the crew later"
21:10:35 <sim-al2> I'm sure large companies were much less legally adverse, but it's not like railroads didn't face lawsuits for accidents
21:10:38 <drac_boy> then again the old days had lot of people helping out as soon as an accident happened but now thanks to sue-happy lawyer world you don't even have these as much anymore
21:16:54 <drac_boy> (and of course no orange vests or hard hats for the final cleanup crews either)
21:18:14 <drac_boy> at least looks like they already cut out the ground power if that steam locomotive on the two coaches is a sign
21:20:27 <sim-al2> Considering that the guy is literally standing on the third rail
21:20:53 <sim-al2> I'm sure the wreckage shorted it out anyway
21:21:11 <sim-al2> If not, the crew of the train would use their grounding bar to di it
21:21:47 <drac_boy> btw you remind me of a well-reviewed accident...
21:23:38 <drac_boy> claphill or something (I can't remember from memory now) .. one emu came to green signal but it suddenly turned red before he passed it so stopped shortly to contact dispatcher but for some reason a 2nd train following rammed into it .. power finally shut off just as a third train coming and driver was wondering about the loss of power till he then saw the accident and at a lower speed came to a stop safely away from the whol
21:24:17 <drac_boy> one of the signal ground wire was at fault ... due to the whole "contractor pass out to subcontractor" quality issues as I recall
21:25:11 <sim-al2> Yeah, there were apparently loose wires inside the box they hadn't been isolated, and were able to contact the new wires
21:30:22 <drac_boy> also another kind of 3-trains accident would be the one at harrow and wealdstone .. one express ran into rear of a platform-standing express .. and as bad luck would have it another express train from other direction on nearby track struck the fresh wreck
21:30:35 <drac_boy> basically one of the island platform was almost all smashed :-/
21:31:26 <sim-al2> Yeah, modern train radios are including the ability to automatically halt trains in an area around them. With CTC, the dispatcher could do that, but it would often take time
21:31:27 <drac_boy> only one more reason I recall that station is because one of the locomotive involved was an ex-turbine one
21:31:47 <drac_boy> (they rebuilt it to conventional piston setup but retained the "heavy-duty looking" trailing axle
21:33:33 <drac_boy> you can see what I mean about that trailing frame looking more serious than on most other usual locomotives
21:36:19 <sim-al2> Increased firebox size? I wonder why it was designed that way
21:37:19 <drac_boy> yeah good question, I don't really know a lot about the turbomotive (as its name really was..funny but good one)
21:38:12 <drac_boy> I do know that the PRR S2 carried a 6-8-6 layout for some reason .. big firebox on rear I can understand but I dunno why the front too (a 4-8-6 would had been ok too)
21:41:45 <drac_boy> oh and while we're talking about less usual things .. how about the fact that uk had what was basically a 4-2-2-2, it was actually basically a 4-pistons 4-4-2 .. kinda strange that they would have duplex single drivers as I recall it was noted that many engineers didn't like these locomotive
21:48:46 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
21:54:03 <drac_boy> anyway this chat beside, what you doing? :)
21:55:14 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
22:04:33 <sim-al2> Duplex locomotives are rather odd, the seperate cylinders are supposed to reduce track forces, but the tradeoffs are pretty significant
22:05:01 <drac_boy> well this was probably the most oddest one .. a 4-2-2-2 basically 0_o
22:05:55 <drac_boy> but on the other hand PRR's nice attempt at 4-4-4-4 was a honest attempt but it was too rushed through any proper testings by oncoming diesel orders (no surprise that many engineers found it quite 'slippery')
22:06:43 <drac_boy> also other thing with that one was that modern metallurgy had made the siderods for 4-8-4's lighter so they had less track pounding problem .. a case of "trying to solve an nonexisting problem" eventually
22:07:29 <sim-al2> The advances in valvegear would have helped, except that conventional valvegear was cheaper
22:07:48 <drac_boy> still wondered what the real history behind the 4-6-4-2 (yep irregular duplex) semi-streamliner was tho
22:09:27 <sim-al2> I think it's actually a 4-6-4-4, the PRR Q1 class
22:09:42 <drac_boy> oh, ops didn't noticed I had the wrong numpad number till now :)
22:09:45 <drac_boy> yeah you're right :p
22:10:18 <sim-al2> Hmmm, apparently designed for freight service, but the rear cylinders had many issues because they were right next to the firebox
22:11:21 <drac_boy> btw I forgot which country it was but there was this one where the mallet actually had three axles of one diameter on the high pressure side and two axles of slight larger diameters on the low pressure side, something about trying to cure the sluggish performance of the LP drive
22:11:33 <drac_boy> it actually lasted for quite a while in service surprisingly
22:12:25 <drac_boy> yeah firebox and piston together doesn't always make a great idea .. even less with track gauge in question
22:12:30 <sim-al2> Hmmm, different wheel diameters? Might have interesting results in tighter curves
22:12:41 <drac_boy> yep .. LP and HP axles were different diameters
22:13:05 <drac_boy> btw about piston positions .. you remind me of a somewhat obstructive example (by nowaday that is) one sec...
22:15:04 <sim-al2> Oh, I thought you meant different wheel diameters on the left side vs the right side. As long as the mounting of the two sets of drivers compensated, I don't think there would be a problem
22:16:09 <drac_boy> hm I'm not sure where it could be (if it was ever online at all) but anyway .. as I recall it was a small 0-4-4-0 or 0-6-6-0 (as typical early mallets were) .. and well before superheaters existed ...
22:16:54 <drac_boy> for russia operation (or at least some other northern country in europe I forgot) ... the pistons were placed literally butt-to-butt right in the very middle (rather than the front truck having pistons mounted forward as was typical)
22:17:29 <drac_boy> the book editor wisely and probably correctly noted that it was a maintenance headache as you couldn't simply remove the piston covers to get to the cylinder bores :-/
22:18:31 <drac_boy> superheating removed the problem with temperature loss and so such the HP pistons could be placed up front without any performance degradation even if running in alaska or russia I imagine :)
22:18:48 <drac_boy> but this pre-superheat mallet was a rather odd one in my view
22:22:32 *** Progman has joined #openttd
22:22:39 <sim-al2> That's a rather interesting design
22:23:07 <drac_boy> still you know what I mean? the pistons were literally back to back with almost no gap ... what was going on anyway?
22:25:16 <sim-al2> I suppose they wanted the forward set as close to the boiler as possible, to reduce heat losses
22:25:55 <drac_boy> yeah, thankgod for superheaters later on ;)
22:34:00 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
22:48:17 <sim-al2> It's interesting that many smaller locomotives lacked superheaters even to the end
22:48:44 <sim-al2> But I suppose power was not the concern, compared to ease of maintenance
22:57:09 <drac_boy> yeah, different kind of topic but still similar story still .. how about taking a GP15 and strip out its turbo if it still has one .. then otherwise simply keep it going in light yardshed duty? :)
22:58:20 <sim-al2> GP15's wouldn't have a turbo (except the GP15T, but the two customers for them would have wanted the turbo)
22:58:58 <sim-al2> GP20 and GP30 would, and would be great candidates for removing the thing
22:59:28 <drac_boy> well excuse me for not knowing the entire emd craps :P
22:59:29 <sim-al2> the turbo used on the 567 engines apparently was more problematic than the later designs
22:59:37 <drac_boy> I do know GP30 had that funny 50's style hood roof tho
22:59:40 <sim-al2> Yeah, the numbering system is absurd
23:00:07 <drac_boy> and GP60 was the last in term of 4-axle power for emd in usa afaik
23:00:26 <drac_boy> santa fe not surprisingly had a sizeable number of these for their hot trains on the long flat lines
23:00:37 <sim-al2> The GP15 is basically a lower power GP38, with a 12 cylinder engine
23:00:55 <drac_boy> bnsf did mix them with 6-axle powers but eventually yeah the GP60 was a bit past its limit by then
23:00:59 <sim-al2> The GP15T has the same 1500hp with an 8 cylinder turbo engine
23:01:37 <sim-al2> Apparently the lack of demand along with weight issues precluded further 4 axle designs of more power
23:02:18 <sim-al2> The commuter roads were happy with 3000hp at the time, and Amtrak went to GE for the specialized P40/P42 design
23:03:03 <sim-al2> The F125 is finally a new high power EMD 4 axle design, but with a Catapillar engine...
23:04:59 <drac_boy> actually heres the funny thing..
23:05:19 <drac_boy> there was really a F40PH but without the turbo .. not sure if it was ever sold to anyone or got stuck as a book-only thing that never came to be
23:06:03 <sim-al2> I wonder who would have bought that anyway, the turbo engine is more fuel efficient at higher power anyway
23:06:26 <sim-al2> There are some F40PH's pulling freight in Panama now
23:07:54 <sim-al2> Metrolink in SoCal bought 4 SD60's, with the plan to swap the 645 in 4 F40PHs with the 710 in the SD60s, but apparently they never got around to doing that
23:08:42 <sim-al2> Potentially would have created 3800hp F40's though 0.o
23:27:02 <drac_boy> oh btw I have a small book about the Deltic and one of the early post-prototype test they did was to run a route with either both engine on as usual or only one on ... somehow not surprisingly the latter didn't have too much difficulty but it was noted that a bit less than half the hp was available due to generator load (train lights etca) etc only across one engine instead of two
23:32:45 <drac_boy> and one somewhat comical problem was that the first batches of tests had been with a steam-era train on a simple timetable and when they were eventually assigned to normal schedules (heavier trains at higher average speeds) they suddenly started having many small reliability issues (including something to do with oil cooler for a while too) .. no surprise on that tho
23:34:43 <sim-al2> Those engines were run pretty hard, considering they were orginal boat engines
23:36:17 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest9048
23:36:18 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
23:36:26 <sim-al2> Despite the similarity, there's a long history of ship engines not doing well in locomotives
23:36:31 <drac_boy> there is one other side of the comical things tho .. if a Deltic was failed and there was no other diesel locomotive .. well .. cue steam locomotive but by the time they got to king cross the poor fireman always had to go for a drink of a really strong pint
23:36:57 <drac_boy> when you think about it you kinda have to feel poor for the fireman, trying to keep the firebox a bit too hot due to the punishing schedule to keep
23:37:54 <sim-al2> Yeah, at least orginally on the LNER the tenders had a corridor to allow the crew to swap out without stopping the train
23:38:25 <drac_boy> I think I've seen that, requires tight fit men to fit through it
23:45:14 <drac_boy> funny how the turret looks like one you would find on a tugboat .. you know :)
23:45:24 <drac_boy> and yep it was a marine V8 behind the cab section
23:45:47 <sim-al2> Sulzer had some problems too, but they were able to eventually solve a number of them
23:46:15 <sim-al2> There are marine versions of the GE and EMD engines though
continue to next day ⏵
