IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-23
⏴ go to previous day
00:34:25 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
02:49:27 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
02:59:55 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
03:44:26 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest8838
03:44:27 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
03:49:28 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
04:05:31 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd
04:18:17 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
04:32:26 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
07:00:49 *** lastmikoi has joined #openttd
08:42:05 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
08:57:46 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
09:47:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
09:57:01 *** smoke_fumus|2 has joined #openttd
11:00:37 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
12:02:17 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
12:45:19 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
14:39:39 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:04:08 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
15:16:15 *** Ketsuban has joined #openttd
15:57:21 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
16:24:45 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
16:33:37 <supermop> designing art nouveau towel hooks here
16:34:30 <supermop> actually find the idea of designing bathroom hardware to be pretty great, just not art nouveau
16:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what's nouveau about art nouveau?
16:36:37 <supermop> its about 120 years old
16:37:08 <supermop> but every couple decades it comes back in fashion among people who are into frilly traditional styles
16:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> just make it Bauhaus style. pure, simple, minimalistic, designed for mass production
16:38:05 <supermop> tbh if i was doing hooks from the late 19th -early 20th C I'd rather be doing vienna secessionist
16:39:23 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i went to a bauhaus model architecture school and worked for Dieter Rams' company for a few years - honest modernism and german functionalism are the ways of my heart
16:39:53 <supermop> but that's not the assignment/design brief from the manufacturer in this case
16:40:19 <supermop> i am starting by thinking of the tooling though
16:40:59 <supermop> i want everything possible to be possible to be turned on a lathe, and not require complex shaped casting
16:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so art nouveau is just loads of wiggly intertwined lines?
16:41:20 <supermop> yes, but simplified organic
16:41:27 <V453000> put slugs and turtles
16:41:51 <supermop> not as literally plant shaped as earlier 19th century styles
16:42:14 <supermop> basically old paris metro stations, thonet chairs etc
17:04:22 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
17:04:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:13:47 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:17:35 <Wolf01> V, I just noticed there's something disturbing in the rail research icon... let's see if you spot it too
17:18:46 <andythenorth> so the FIRS 2 changelog was written 6 months ago, and a lot more has changed since then
17:19:05 <Alberth> nasty changelog not updating itself
17:19:15 <andythenorth> is the ‘features’, ‘fixes’, ‘codechanges’ format required for a major version release?
17:19:31 * andythenorth wonders about using a different heading structure
17:19:53 <Alberth> the author of a newgrf makes that decision :)
17:20:04 <Wolf01> so you released it finally?
17:20:11 <Alberth> but it avoids having to think about it :p
17:20:28 <andythenorth> there are still 2 potential features to go in, but I think they’ll wait for 2.1
17:20:34 <Wolf01> we have to wait for 1st of april?
17:20:43 <andythenorth> I might do an RC this weekend
17:20:49 <andythenorth> but I can’t put it on bananas
17:20:52 <andythenorth> unless I change grfid
17:21:13 <Wolf01> I really think that 1.x and 2.x should be 2 different grfs
17:21:26 <andythenorth> I am considering it
17:21:30 <andythenorth> what are the downsides?
17:21:55 <Wolf01> I had a nasty problem with nurails which changed the position of lot of parameters
17:22:04 <Alberth> the list of newgrfs that you made gets longer?
17:22:09 <Wolf01> nothing worked well until I reset the parameters to default
17:22:36 <Wolf01> *nutracks or what it wsa
17:23:36 <Wolf01> so, if you changed the parameters, and you did, or you find a way to update them too, or make a different version please :D
17:23:54 <andythenorth> parameters have changed
17:24:15 <andythenorth> if I release separate grfs, do I have to support v1 also?
17:24:45 <Alberth> sure "use v2 instead"
17:25:03 <Wolf01> you can let it die, or just bugfix it every now and then
17:25:29 <Alberth> nah, it only has hidden features :)
17:26:20 <andythenorth> there’s probably some reason it’s a bad idea
17:27:08 <Alberth> yeah, but not changing grfid is also a bad idea?
17:28:01 <Alberth> hmm, maybe people getting confused between versions?
17:28:37 <Wolf01> I just reported a bad behavior about that, I'm not saying it's a bug, but it looks like a "my game don't work anymore because I removed a grf"
17:31:48 <Alberth> shouldn't the grf have reported "not compatible" ?
17:32:38 <Wolf01> it was a parameters problem, the grf didn't have any problem by itself
17:33:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker might have an opinion
17:33:46 <Wolf01> and the problem showed on new game, as the old save used the old version
17:34:18 <Wolf01> the new game used the new version with old parameters
17:34:46 <Wolf01> because I updated the preset and it didn't warn about the misconfiguration
17:36:04 <Wolf01> so I would do either: 1) clean parameters on grf update 2) if the new grf version doesn't have backwards compatibility use a different grfid
17:38:04 <Wolf01> 1 is bad for players, 2 is bad for andy
17:44:17 <argoneus> good morning train friends
17:45:04 <andythenorth> I don’t mind having 2 grfs in the wild
17:45:18 <andythenorth> I just know that I was yelled at quite a lot about never changing grfids any more
17:46:28 <Wolf01> mmmh, desura is dead, I still have like 30 payed games I'll never be able to play
17:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i made a big mistake replying to Leanden...
17:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he matured in the past few years?
17:50:14 <Wolf01> at least you didn't insult him
17:50:21 <V453000> Wolf01: rail research icon?
17:52:07 <Alberth> leanden currently mostly seems to get lost in adding real-life considerations
17:52:22 <Wolf01> the inserter is on the wrong side of the belt, how it's supposed to load the train? also the chests on the other side are used only by the bots
17:52:44 <V453000> wait rail research has inserter in it?
17:53:34 <V453000> I don't think that is a problem at all
17:53:40 <V453000> it is an icon to demonstrate what you get
17:53:51 <V453000> the armor doesn't look very useful at that point either :P
17:54:15 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
17:54:44 <V453000> mods have some, base game not
17:55:05 <V453000> if enemies attack your trains, you probably have bigger problems :D
17:55:07 <andythenorth> someone should port it
17:55:35 <V453000> andythenorth: the mods in factorio have like 3 times the amount of products and shit that FIRS has in all economies combined probably
17:56:41 <andythenorth> FIRS is minimalist really
17:56:46 <andythenorth> like barely anything in it
18:02:33 <V453000> I wonder how would the game work if you had 2 types of industries only
18:03:25 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
18:04:26 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
18:10:35 <Wolf01> what would use up the goods? cities?
18:14:13 <V453000> the trick would be, the secondary industry would only be able to produce X amount of resource per month
18:15:00 <V453000> so you would have to create a kind of multipoint network, but totally up to you what do you connect with what
18:35:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:45:34 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
19:06:34 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
19:08:53 *** Quatroking has joined #openttd
19:13:50 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
19:23:22 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
19:29:10 <Alberth> 1.4.4 had a vehicle factory?
19:30:37 <Alberth> all the "new cargo type" seems a bit repetitive
19:30:51 <Alberth> but everything in one line isn't nice either
19:31:07 <andythenorth> I picked the lesser of two evils
19:31:44 <Alberth> maybe drop "improved" for cargoes, industries, economies?
19:32:44 <andythenorth> needs something to indicate that these are the changes, rather than the list of cargos / industries etc
19:32:50 <Alberth> I'd but the short one together I think
19:33:32 <Alberth> now you have a mix, and with each entry I have to see how long it is :)
19:34:20 <Alberth> Dairies 1 line, Dredging 3 lines, Food processing 1 line
19:35:01 <Alberth> Furniture Factory: 'crates' not 't' in extra text string for <-- doesn't sound like improved industry :)
19:35:03 <andythenorth> waits for compile farm
19:35:21 <andythenorth> ‘improved by removal of bug’ :P
19:35:37 <andythenorth> maybe some word other than improved
19:36:17 <Alberth> I'd move it to general improvements or so
19:36:40 <Alberth> First entry 'Extreme' economy looks wrong
19:36:51 <Alberth> it's not a nice economy
19:37:30 <Alberth> added Fish chain, it's important for South West UK, which was the inspiration for this economy
19:38:03 <Alberth> I was thinking better place for the extreme economy, somewhere down the end of economies :)
19:38:51 <andythenorth> groups the new cargo types
19:39:08 <Alberth> I like the new descriptions of the economies, bit of background
19:39:57 <Alberth> I like the new cargo types like that
19:40:15 <Alberth> tempted to add wikipedia links :p
19:40:58 <andythenorth> I should group the new industries also?
19:41:06 <andythenorth> I kind of like the alphabetised list, but eh
19:41:26 <Alberth> one for new industries, and one for improved layout/graphics, imho
19:41:48 <Alberth> you can have alphabetized within the sub-list :D
19:43:02 <Alberth> it seperates the entries you don't have to say much about from the ones with a longer story
19:43:17 <Alberth> which I think is nice for reading
19:44:39 <Alberth> "alphabetise the order of economies in parameter menu and docs" haha :)
19:44:53 <Alberth> hmm, can't change the order then :)
19:45:24 <Alberth> docs had some broken html, fixed <-- - ", fixed" ?
19:45:33 <andythenorth> I read the wrong commit for changelog about economy order :P
19:45:54 <andythenorth> I’ve removed ‘, fixed’ from the html note
19:47:20 <Alberth> "speedup compile times" is not a code change :p but not a big problem, and it avoids another category
19:48:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
19:48:16 <Alberth> hmm, if firs2 is going to be new, should 1.4.4 exist at the same page???
19:48:50 <Alberth> want to mention what the new default economy is now?
19:50:20 <andythenorth> we need a bigger faster compile farm :(
19:50:43 <Alberth> I would put the basic economies first, then the hot country, and finally the extreme economy
19:50:56 <Alberth> nah, have some tea while you wait :)
19:50:56 <andythenorth> that is the order in game
19:51:13 <andythenorth> btw, the compile time speed up was due to refactoring multiple bits of inefficient code
19:51:39 <andythenorth> so I need to decide on grfid
19:51:44 * andythenorth considers a poll
19:52:14 <Alberth> doesn't the new enhanced/gung ho mechanism need a few lines?
19:52:36 <andythenorth> in the “General Improvements” section
19:52:40 <andythenorth> but easily missed I think
19:52:56 <Alberth> how are you going to do a bugfix for firs1 ever if you keep the same grfid?
19:53:49 <Alberth> added parameters for adjusting 'Enhanced' and 'Gung-Ho' production behaviour at industries <-- that just mentions it, not that you can tweak it entirely :)
19:54:07 <andythenorth> maybe it needs a heading and sub-list
19:54:09 <Alberth> thus same grfid == death of firs1
19:54:57 <andythenorth> that was my original intention
19:55:17 <andythenorth> but it breaks availability of FIRS for those who can’t or don’t update to OpenTTD 1.6.0
19:55:27 <Alberth> ok, not judging, just making consequences clear
19:55:50 <andythenorth> I can’t remember the reasons why changing grfid became a ‘no no no'
19:55:51 <Alberth> that happened before with firs didn't it?
19:56:16 <andythenorth> there was definitely hostility to changing grfid, but I don’t recall from whom or why :)
19:56:30 <Alberth> as I know it, it was standard practice as you could not express compatibility
19:56:53 <Alberth> obviously, it would break save games
19:57:16 <andythenorth> maybe the hostility was against the _general_ practice
19:57:20 <Alberth> at least, it probably predates that change
19:57:22 <andythenorth> and not the specific valid cases
19:58:17 <Alberth> but now you have action 14 iirc to say what the requirements are
19:58:27 <Alberth> so less need to change newgrfid
19:58:46 <Alberth> less chance to cause conflicts, perhaps
20:00:00 <Alberth> what happens with all the derived firses?
20:01:55 <Alberth> not sure how relevant that is though
20:02:58 <Alberth> but generally, lots of new goodies :)
20:04:54 <andythenorth> in the absence of any wiser counsel than your me, I will just change grfid now :D
20:19:19 <Alberth> that gives good chances on changing the grfid :D
20:20:05 <Alberth> and it does look like the most future proof solution to me
20:20:28 <Alberth> except now you have to add "old" firs as a conflicting newgrf :p
20:20:55 <Alberth> and technically, you have yo update the "old" firs too, the other way around :D
20:25:33 <andythenorth> I wonder if I created a v1 branch
20:25:45 <Alberth> latter isn't really needed, depending on how 'dead' you consider firs 1
20:26:29 <Alberth> in the end it might be easier to fork to a new firs2 repo?
20:27:57 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
20:32:11 <andythenorth> or make a FIRS 1 repo if maintenance is needed
20:32:37 <andythenorth> I only need a one-way conflict check against FIRS 1 from FIRS 2
20:43:41 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
20:50:10 <andythenorth> dunno how these checks work :)
20:53:58 <andythenorth> and my check doesn’t work
21:03:44 <andythenorth> FIRS 1 grfid is “\F1%\00\05”
21:04:04 <andythenorth> check needs to be something like
21:04:05 <andythenorth> INCOMPATIBLE_GRF("F1\00\05", "FIRS v1")
21:22:21 <andythenorth> seems to work :D
21:26:24 *** Ikaheishi has joined #openttd
21:26:57 <Alberth> readability fails a bit :)
21:27:50 <andythenorth> it’s not a beautiful error message
21:37:55 <andythenorth> eh well maybe I should tag an RC1
21:58:11 <andythenorth> bananas needs a nightly version specific
21:58:20 <andythenorth> no idea how to find that
22:10:55 <andythenorth> must be an OpenTTD version string of some kind
22:14:36 <andythenorth> oops, I gave FIRS 2 a stupid name on bananas
22:14:42 <andythenorth> and that will be there forever now :)
22:21:15 <andythenorth> 6 months later than intended :D
22:27:41 <Alberth> it's more important that you got there in away you can live with peacefully :)
22:35:53 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd
22:43:43 *** Progman_ has joined #openttd
22:47:19 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
23:30:11 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest8938
23:30:13 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
23:40:11 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
continue to next day ⏵
