IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-03-01
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01:44:29 <drac_boy> and btw about our frequent talks before there is one thing that some people have mentioned .. the GG1 was steam-era electric design while the E44 was diesel-era design and I rather think theres some point in that
01:45:15 <drac_boy> (and especially given that after the GG1 the use of idler axles was rather getting very rare, other than for weight-carrying purposes in A1A trucks)
01:45:24 <sim-al2> GG1 has a lot in common with the steam designs of the time, pilot trucks, the frame design, etc
01:46:04 <drac_boy> on the contrast .. there can be a such thing as maybe too many driver axles .. one moment I'll show you an example
01:47:37 <sim-al2> Of course, the locomotives tended to feature pilot trucks because the rigid driver-frame became somewhat unstable at speed
01:48:25 <sim-al2> In the ~30 years between the GG1 and the E44, suspension design improved a lot
01:49:26 <drac_boy> PRR used them for horseshoe curve banking duty as one example tho so....at least they weren't lemons from the start thankfully
01:49:40 <sim-al2> The E44 had nose-suspended traction motors, as opposed to the GG1's quill drive, though
01:52:57 <sim-al2> Baldwin did suffer from a failure to advance their designs though, the Centipedes had many steam locomotive-like characteristics, leading to more difficult than the Alco and EMD diesels that were arriving in the following years
01:57:03 <drac_boy> at least the "babynose" diesel was a lot more 'conventional' even if it was not as numerous as other none-emd units (alco etc)
01:57:22 <drac_boy> even B&O bought a few of these I think
01:58:06 <sim-al2> The CNJ even had a dual-cab version
01:59:09 <sim-al2> I've always wondered why dual-cabs failed to catch on here even in passenger service, it's not like a Geep had great long-hood visibility
01:59:36 <drac_boy> actually its likely to do with cost ... the control stands among other things
02:00:07 <sim-al2> Cab cars have the same though
02:00:08 <drac_boy> thats same reason why many GP7 and to smaller degree GP9 often came with certain pared-down configurations
02:01:04 <drac_boy> a GP7 without MU and a smallish fuel tank, and even non-26L brakestand? sure you can have it, likely as cheap as they could even sell it
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02:01:08 <sim-al2> Nearly all commuter operations that survived beyond the 60's started using cab cars, although I suppose run-arrounds wouldn't have been possible around that time anyway
02:01:33 <drac_boy> and it also somewhat explains why the geep B units were slight popular with some railroads till the cost of cab vs non-cab finally just didn't pan out as much
02:01:57 <drac_boy> the GP60B ones are a bit of funny oddity I don't quite get tho but to our own
02:02:09 <drac_boy> (as its a very late unit, not part of the first generation diesels)
02:02:25 <sim-al2> I don't see how stripping those features down saved much money, the control system is already there anyway and I doubt 26L cost much more than maintaining older valves recovered from early equipment
02:02:58 <drac_boy> btw commuter railroads past the steam era often used push-pull to avoid runarounds at busy cities
02:03:25 <sim-al2> Most of those passenger geeps were built with steam generators, and thus needed water tanks
02:03:36 <drac_boy> well sim-a12 the cost indeed was noticeable back then a little like how your 20MB hd costed a lot more than a later 80MB one did
02:03:47 <drac_boy> (poor anatomy I know but still)
02:05:38 <sim-al2> The 26L had longer times between maintenace though
02:06:47 <drac_boy> one interesting slight abnormality (if you want call it that) with a few GP7 orders was re them coming with arch bar trucks ... I imagine it was due to the particular small railroad's shop familiarization
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02:09:47 <drac_boy> about passenger geeps, actually .. theres one that I've found interesting for some reason
02:10:41 <drac_boy> guess what emd did when they ran into the problem of needing space for the big water tank? just throw the air tanks onto the roof instead ;)
02:11:19 <drac_boy> as I recall fans nicknamed them torpedoes which I think seem to have merit
02:11:30 <sim-al2> Hmmm, didn't notice but there's 4 of the tanks, not the two you can normally see...
02:11:52 <drac_boy> well yeah ground view can make it look like only two ... I think
02:12:14 <sim-al2> I wonder if the regular tanks are bigger or there's two shoved under the frame of normal geeps
02:12:29 <drac_boy> and that photo also seem somewhat early because of still having these Harrison coaches behind the bilevels
02:13:04 <sim-al2> I don't think the Harrisons were gone until the 70's though
02:13:28 <drac_boy> btw as I remember the fuel/water tank was basically a single assembly with the water sitting in middle and the fuel being a "U" saddle around it ... that was a carryover from the F design where the hot fuel returned to tank from engine kept the water tank from freezing up
02:16:09 <drac_boy> can't find a good outline photo so hope you can understand that description? ^
02:17:27 <sim-al2> Apparently the single-level coaches were in service through at least 1974
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02:19:44 <drac_boy> btw I found some outline drawings for the geep tho .. apparently the air would had gone into cylinders located between the rear truck and the fuel or fuel/water tank .. but of course for heavier trains or longer heating distance I guess they took this empty space for extra capacity therefore the "torpedoes" on roof
02:21:18 <sim-al2> Quite a lot of equipment worldwide has air reserviors tucked perpendicular to the length of the car, but EMD and GE seem to have preferred long fairly small diameter reserviors along the frame (or sometimes on the roof)
02:21:42 <sim-al2> Yeah, that arrangement is pretty common elsewhere
02:23:26 <drac_boy> btw I can't recall exactly which one now but I know some rather small gas/diesel locomotives probably had very little chassis space to use (especially if its a 2- or 3-coupled axles) so they put a big tank right in the front above the buffers
02:29:37 <sim-al2> There's some Czech/Slovakian (built during the 80's) electric locomotives with the reservoirs between the bogies and the end plate of the frame
02:30:31 <drac_boy> heh actually czech kinda reminds me of something I looked into before, one moment :)
02:32:28 <drac_boy> probably the only one scooter/motorcycle I've heard of where the fuel isn't located somewhere near the middle
02:33:37 <drac_boy> they sold a lot of them so apparently they were probably still safe enough tho
02:33:50 <drac_boy> I dunno tbh, after all
02:35:36 <drac_boy> HEH oh boy, 2-stroke smelly cars that even had unrecycleable "plastic" body as well
02:37:43 <drac_boy> at least funny enough I recall some (I have no idea how long it went on for before the car was discounted post-wallfall) trabants actually ran on cleaner vw engines (so 4-stroke for sure, dunno what size)
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03:03:18 <drac_boy> talk about being unusually an articulated diesel locomotive even although the total length isn't special enough to have really required it
03:04:06 <drac_boy> (cue japan having many diesel locomotives with 3 trucks but still running on one rigid chassis for comparison sake)
03:06:14 <sim-al2> There are various early designs, but mass produced designs include the DF50 and DF200. The DD51 gets honorable mention for having a center support bogie between the two end powered bogies
03:07:52 <sim-al2> Various US locomotives have been exported to South America; those going to the narrow gauge lines tend to end up with 4 bogies attached together in pairs, in order to fit enough motor capacity into the smaller space
03:07:52 <drac_boy> yeah the DD51 did always seem like it would look strange without the middle truck .. given how when looked at from the side it looks like a rather long locomotive (not helped by the low hoods giving off that perception)
03:12:38 <drac_boy> btw while we're at japan. I always wondered about the real origin behind the DE10 design considering that even if steam boiler weight had made 3 axles required .. how come it has an irregular 3+2 pattern rather than just carrying an idler axle in the front truck?
03:13:31 <sim-al2> Tractive effort probably
03:13:40 <drac_boy> (I could maybe be wrong one day but I believe its pretty much the only diesel with asymmetric tractions)
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03:14:01 <sim-al2> It's already a lightweight, an idler would hurt it on freight duty
03:15:07 <sim-al2> Probably not so important today, where the main duties are working MU transport from the factories and various shunting, but they were replacing various freight engines throughout
03:15:11 <drac_boy> thats why the DE10 has had me wonder about its origin sometimes
03:15:34 <sim-al2> Not, the bogie is not actually a C either, it's an articulated A'A'A'
03:15:42 <sim-al2> One of the early self-steering trucks
03:17:49 <sim-al2> It's probably worth noting that the DD51 and the DE10 have more or less the same engines, just the DD51 is rated ~1000hp per engine while the DE10 had a newer ~1200hp variant
03:17:53 <drac_boy> either way theres always the DD14 and how there were more than 20 of them. talk about a very specialized locomotive (I've never seen a photo of one working summer trains) but apparently even in modeller world they're still quite popular too tho
03:18:24 <sim-al2> Yeah, there's not too much in the way of English sources on them, and slogging through translations is hard
03:19:04 <sim-al2> There was a design very much like the German diesel-hydraulics, and though it wasn't too successful, it led to the design of the DD51
03:20:45 <drac_boy> the adjustable mini-plow in front of the main plow at front end is an interesting touch too
03:28:26 <drac_boy> anyway going off for a bit before going to bed so have fun allright?
03:29:24 <drac_boy> eh? the road things in background says 0% canadian ;)
03:29:24 <sim-al2> Although central Japan can get pretty crazy...
03:29:44 <sim-al2> Yeah, this appears to be a relative of the DE10
03:29:52 <drac_boy> heh, well have a good day/night allright? :)
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17:52:03 <jackyf> Hello, I'm coding an OpenTTD patch and looking for a way to draw/apply a half-transparent solid colored "tile rectangle" over each tile. Does anybody know is a certain patch of piece of functionality does anything like this? The closest I could find is a tile highlighting functionality (DrawTileSelectionRect) but that is based on predefined sprites palettes as I understand. Any pointers?
17:58:16 <frosch> usually you do drawtileselection, but you can also try PALETTE_MODIFIER_TRANSPARENT
17:58:31 <frosch> like the newspaper darkening
18:03:20 <frosch> there are town zone patches and stuff, which add another method for highlighting
18:03:29 <frosch> but it's visually complicated imho
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18:12:55 <jackyf> thanks for pointers! from that screenshots I see there is a way to highlight borders with different borders (like default highlighting), I wondered is there a way to apply solid coloring, not only border rect
18:13:27 <jackyf> I also see from the code that PALETTE_MODIFIER_TRANSPARENT is a bit in sprite
18:13:30 <frosch> even the patch in the screenshot needs to add seprate sprites for that
18:16:10 <jackyf> so that suggests there is no easy way to produce PaletteID on the fly, and this'd be the answer to my question then :)
18:17:34 <jackyf> thanks again, I will look for other ways
18:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on how "easy" you think adding a new sprite is
18:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like, look at the commit that added the "all black" palette for drawing the map border
18:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that was part of "more heightlevels", i think
18:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it originally added a black version of each of the ground tiles, but before inclusion it was changed to use the regular groundtiles but "recoloured" to completely black
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18:46:26 <jackyf> Eddi|zuHause: thanks for a pointer, I think I found this commit, some parts are beyond my knowledge
18:47:19 <jackyf> Eddi|zuHause: but do I undertand correctly that it'd require one static palette per one color, so if one wants 16 colors, it's 16 palettes to define?
18:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is basically how company colours work already
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19:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no. nobody did that in days.
19:42:13 <V453000> I heard a guy say fuck trains
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27515 /trunk/src/lang (polish.txt thai.txt) (2016-03-01 19:45:37 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> polish: 1 change by lion
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> thai: 11 changes by ityellow
19:46:18 <Ketsuban> Don't fuck trains. It doesn't end well for anyone involved.
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19:53:56 <argoneus> I'm pretty sure there's a rule 34 of fucking trains
19:54:21 <Ketsuban> Kantai Collection exists, I don't doubt there's a train one as well.
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19:59:20 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 51 minutes and 45 seconds ago: <andythenorth> :)
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20:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> did hell just freeze over?
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20:41:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27516 /trunk/src (58 files in 3 dirs) (2016-03-01 20:41:31 +0100 )
20:41:38 <DorpsGek> -Update: Documentation
20:49:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27517 branches/1.6/ (2016-03-01 20:49:40 +0100 )
20:49:47 <DorpsGek> [1.6] -Branch: for incrementing numbers
20:52:01 <roidal> is there a way to figure out when a vehicle get obsolete?
20:53:09 <roidal> okay, maybe another question
20:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the GRF may define a model lifetime, but there is a huge random number added to that
20:53:25 <roidal> if i had the option active that vehicle never get obsolet
20:53:40 <roidal> does they if i deactivate this option during gameplay?
20:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what happens if you deactivate the setting
20:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, you can do that to enforce it
21:00:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27518 /trunk (15 files in 12 dirs) (2016-03-01 21:00:22 +0100 )
21:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch getting really descriptive with the commit messages
21:06:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27519 /branches/1.6 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2016-03-01 21:06:23 +0100 )
21:06:29 <DorpsGek> [1.6] -Update: Documentation
21:09:08 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27520 tags/1.6.0-RC1/ (2016-03-01 21:09:02 +0100 )
21:12:07 <frosch> andythenorth: only for firs :)
21:14:19 <andythenorth> it’s not done yet :P
21:14:25 * andythenorth must get izzy wizzy busy
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21:20:03 <frosch> does not look like lego
21:20:17 <andythenorth> I have stopped buying Lego
21:20:22 <andythenorth> now buying trains
21:20:35 <andythenorth> now selling trains
21:21:24 <frosch> you know, when people say stocks are bad, it does not necessarily imply other stuff is better :)
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21:34:19 <_johannes> Does someone know what it means that yapf has called NOT_REACHED() in yapf_base.hpp:309?
21:35:05 <_johannes> it suggests some problems, but none of them relate to what I've done
21:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: NOT_REACHED() is a panic button for something that the original programmer thought can never happen
21:35:44 <frosch> according to the comment, you have created an invalid norm for A*
21:36:09 <_johannes> frosch: I think I never changed the norm
21:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like returning negative weights?
21:36:48 <frosch> not over-estimating the distance
21:36:56 <_johannes> the comment suggests that, but I did not change anything about the weights
21:42:46 <Alberth> not under-estimating, is it? 0 as estimate gives Dijkstra, which is still optimal
21:44:06 <frosch> it has to give an "at least" cost estimate
21:51:59 <frosch> @topic set 1 1.5.3, 1.6.0-RC1
21:51:59 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.5.3, 1.6.0-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev if this channel is really spammy"
21:57:18 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: you may now look for missed numbers
21:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably won't, though.
21:58:53 <frosch> V453000: support for brix and firs
22:01:17 <frosch123> Also, i can now Talk with myself when bored
22:02:12 <V453000> looking forward to see what the generator looks like
22:02:38 <frosch> mapgen is still crap, if you mean that :p
22:02:44 <V453000> not today though, managed to generate a factorio map with 2 oil sources per 2000x2000 tiles ._.
22:02:57 <V453000> mapgen karma too bad today
22:03:11 <V453000> luckily I discovered that after 2 hours, not 20
22:03:15 <frosch> my latest map has tons of oil, but hardly iron ore
22:03:40 <frosch> i hope f maps become more predictable
22:04:18 <V453000> I know there was some work on .13 generator
22:07:35 <V453000> well, at least I won't be wasting that much time on factorio :P
22:18:44 <_johannes> valgrind reports use of an unitialized value in saveload.cpp:2279 ( if (lzma_easy_encoder... )
22:20:40 <frosch> that stuff comes from lzma
22:22:04 <_johannes> ah, oh, this is no opentt library? :)
22:26:27 <frosch> but that line only contains lzma stuff
22:26:56 <frosch> the variables are static initialised or, intialized directly before
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