IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-29
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05:42:42 <sim-al2> I wonder about the capability of that boiler
05:43:26 <Supercheese> it shouldn't need to be all that powerful
05:43:28 <sim-al2> Good view out the front though (for the passengers, anyway)
05:43:49 <Supercheese> stroll along, eyes wide for track defects
05:43:58 <Supercheese> speed not a priority
05:44:06 <sim-al2> Seems that it would limit train weight, although this wouldn't be used for much pulling power anyway
05:44:50 <sim-al2> I think the fact that most railroads even now use executive cars instead of locomotives is telling
05:50:00 <Flygon> iirc, the British just used ordinary locomotives towing special cas
05:50:10 <Flygon> It's how VR did that stuff here
05:50:54 <sim-al2> For the heavy duty inspection, there's dedicated railcars and coaches with all kinds of special equipment
05:50:55 <Flygon> Current day railways (Metro and V/Line) use BOTH methods
05:51:01 <Flygon> Mainly because they have no $$$
05:51:22 <Flygon> There's the one with push-pull locomotives using a converted 50s passenger carriage
05:52:52 * ConductorCat imagines the boiler baking the occupants above.
05:53:23 <sim-al2> I think the new Yanamote line trains in Tokyo will have the ability to inspect the line while in service, as the big spotlight and equipment pack on the roof of one of the cars, and the giant barcode-scanner-looking scanning thing haven't been removed in like a year of testing
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16:04:16 <argoneus> mmm good shit right there
16:14:12 * Eddi|zuHause has a feeling he's in the wrong place
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16:54:34 <V453000> it is great when you put images on reddit (not even long text so they don't have to read stuff), say yo reddit, here are signals, tell me what you think. And first reply I get is a downvote without any comments :D later, 2 comments, shitload of downvotes, some upvotes
16:54:46 <V453000> also, our civilization is in such deep shit.
16:55:51 <Alberth> so much for global democracy :p
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16:57:01 <V453000> not even mentioning forums where literally 2 people care about the thing, with rarely someone else adding comments
16:57:13 <V453000> if I wasn't active on IRC, idk what
16:57:32 <V453000> sometimes I wonder why haven't I moved to modding factorio instead
16:58:12 <Alberth> doing work in free time? :)
16:58:35 <V453000> the things I do for openttd are pretty identical to my work
16:59:43 <V453000> or yeah I could even do work instead of openttd
17:01:24 <Alberth> don't know what the reddit community is like, but at tt-forums, you work is too far from the green temperate climate to count as a baseset, for many, I think
17:02:04 <V453000> mainly because 99% of tt-forums are realistic retards, so I should probably be happy for the 2 people eh
17:02:27 <sim-al2> I don't understand why tropic or even artic is so hated
17:02:40 <frosch123> replace the red stripes on the pbs with a small "noob" text
17:02:54 <V453000> sim-al2: weaker electric trains without newgrfs
17:02:58 <V453000> cause noobs don't use newgrfs
17:03:03 <V453000> frosch123: I like that idea
17:03:06 <Alberth> don't know how many regular users read the graphics development group at all
17:03:31 <Alberth> sim-al2: you missed the toyland climate too ! :(
17:03:43 <sim-al2> Yeah, our vanilla (no newgrf) server is way more popular, appearently clicking the download button for newGRFs is too hard?
17:04:10 <Alberth> also, most people are completely lost when you add a newgrf
17:04:29 <sim-al2> Yeah, but Toyland has actually made me feel sick before, so I understand that
17:04:34 <Alberth> all carefully learned knowledge about trains and industries gone
17:04:34 <V453000> sim-al2: btw, adding newgrfs drastically reduces chances that your server will be visited by griefers
17:04:37 <V453000> apparently it IS hard XD
17:04:53 <sim-al2> For the most part, that's true
17:05:13 <sim-al2> We seem to have the very rare, hyper dedicated guy though
17:05:34 <frosch123> V453000: i guess making the two-way pbs red is fine, they should be very rare
17:06:05 <frosch123> maybe the one-way should look more similar to the entry signal
17:06:29 <V453000> well it kind of is :P
17:06:44 <frosch123> red triangle instead of yellow or so
17:06:49 <frosch123> but no red-white-red
17:07:06 <sim-al2> My thought on the the PBS signals is that the two "forward" (train facing) sides should be half red-white or something, to make seeing the orientation easier
17:07:37 <sim-al2> oh I see you did that already
17:07:48 <frosch123> V453000: i like the combo signals in that screenshot
17:08:04 <frosch123> it makes it easy to see that combo=entry+exit
17:08:59 <V453000> atm making semaphore signals, they will also have combo=entry+exit
17:09:12 <planetmaker> hm... two-way PBS are common in in-track stations, e.g. used for passenger lines
17:09:39 <V453000> sure but not spammed everywhere :P
17:09:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: yes, but even lazy people do not put them all along the track
17:09:55 <planetmaker> lazy people don't place signals :P
17:10:15 <frosch123> i put one-way signals at distance 8 all the time
17:10:17 <sim-al2> They click-drag them though
17:10:33 <planetmaker> hm, I like this new signal version much better than the first, V453000 :)
17:10:46 <V453000> definitely :) a lot of work was put into it
17:11:07 <planetmaker> they have a significant similarity with the newer versions speed control / radar boxes placed alongside roads :P
17:11:31 <Alberth> perhaps one of the problems at reddit is that you need to study the signals to see the logic behind it
17:11:54 <alluke> i dont think tropic or arctic are hated
17:11:58 <V453000> good point :D you need to know how the game signals work XD
17:12:10 <frosch123> so, entry=horizonal yellow, exit=vertical white. following that i suggest one-way-pbs=horizontal red, two-way-pbs=horizontal red + vertical white
17:12:17 <alluke> but people usually seem to prefer the environment which is similar to the one they live irl
17:12:51 <Alberth> if you make a simple table "<signal> Name, (perhaps <old signal>", it makes a lot more sense
17:13:15 <V453000> I believe 2way PBS should be simpler than 1-way frosch123
17:13:25 <alluke> its shit, i can say that
17:13:40 <frosch123> V453000: he, i would expect the reverse :p
17:13:47 <frosch123> 2way pbs is quite wtf
17:13:55 <sim-al2> Screenshots and videos are definetly the most popular on reddit, discussion not so much
17:14:23 <V453000> frosch123: it is, but visually I think there should be something that is simple as 2way, vs. that 2way with a restrictive element (like horizontal stripe) to demonstrate 1-way only
17:14:31 <frosch123> V453000: anyway, i use 1way pbs similar to entry, and 2way pbs similar to 2way exit
17:14:49 <V453000> well yes frosch123 , they also kind of look somewhat similar
17:14:59 <Alberth> V: Seen that, hmm. So perhaps explain "red=pbs", "white" means exit, and so on? with the table
17:15:08 <V453000> 2way PBS does have vertical edges, and 1way pbs does have bright horizontal stripe
17:15:30 <V453000> people don't read that much text :D except a few
17:16:04 <Alberth> but you have 3 concepts or so?
17:16:10 <Alberth> but yeah, could be :(
17:16:22 <V453000> yeah kind of many concepts :D
17:17:26 <alluke> off-topic; does anyone have experience about mk2 vw jettas/golfs?
17:18:13 <Alberth> probably, since you won't be the first buyer? :p
17:18:36 <alluke> i mean any of you here
17:19:01 <Alberth> about 95% never says anything :(
17:19:36 <alluke> here should be a script that kicks them after 24h idle
17:20:08 <Alberth> they just auto-reconnect
17:29:52 <_dp_> you clearly don't play on goal servers :p
17:30:10 <_dp_> pbs is way better there since you can use it for everything and not waste time on signals
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17:37:04 <V453000> sorry _dp_ but openttd isn't starcraft
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17:40:44 <_dp_> V453000, well, about half of mp is competitive :p
17:41:00 <_dp_> and even on non-competitive servers people are trying to compete sometimes
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17:52:45 <V453000> yeah cause people need to see numbers to get a clear winner instead of competing who builds a better network
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17:59:51 <_dp_> V453000, there isn't even a single notion of comparing networks, it's more like an art
18:00:15 <V453000> but it is where people need actual knowledge about the game
18:00:18 <V453000> not just fast fingers
18:01:29 <_dp_> V453000, you need a lot of game knowledge on goal servers too
18:03:10 <_dp_> V453000, won't be so sure... it's just in a different area
18:05:10 <Alberth> just add more track for more capacity, simples
18:06:11 <_dp_> Alberth, aha, and watch your town stuck coz you didn't even bother doing buses :p
18:07:09 <V453000> that is knowledge of same intelligence level like "place your HQ at a town". Zero complexity, just remembering things to do
18:08:37 <Alberth> don't underestimate that, I often forget to place my HQ entirely :p
18:09:04 <_dp_> V453000, you're talking like you know all about town growth mechanics :p
18:09:12 <Alberth> how can I ever be a proper tycoon??? :)
18:10:31 <V453000> it isn't like town growth mechanics are very complex. Get 5 bus stations, get good ratings at them, build roads which avoid daed ends
18:10:50 <V453000> supply resource which gamescript requires, nice
18:11:22 <_dp_> V453000, it's much more complex
18:12:05 <V453000> I would like to hear that then
18:12:18 <V453000> the only thing I remember remaining is town road layout having a big role
18:13:48 <V453000> we read the code of town growth quite intensively with mfb back in the day
18:14:45 <_dp_> V453000, yeah, ofc it does, and there isn't even single "perfect" layout. spiral is pretty close though
18:15:08 <_dp_> so did I :p even did some patches to it after that, and tools for modded client
18:15:40 <V453000> yes various layouts can perform very similarly
18:17:25 <_dp_> there are some layout presets if you click "load" and difference is pretty clear actually
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18:18:01 <_dp_> V453000, cs is number of cycles town growth wasted btw
18:24:06 <_dp_> average house pop and cs amount pretty much summarizes quality of layout
18:24:26 <_dp_> but you can also influence it in game dynamically adjusting layout
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18:25:36 <_dp_> for example, there is a trick with reserving space for houses
18:26:09 <_dp_> or blocking outer town zones with rails to get larger houses
18:26:36 <_dp_> needs a lot of spare time though, since zones change constantly
18:27:05 <V453000> still sounds majorly dull
18:28:38 <_dp_> V453000, well, tell me what's so smart about networks then :p
18:29:40 <V453000> combining signals, managing multi-track traffic, self-managing stations, global network plans, maximizing train efficiency with various things like conditional orders, self regulation, ...
18:34:46 <_dp_> global plan and maximizing efficiency goes for goal too, self regulation wasn't very hard last time I checked, at least when I needed it I figured pretty much all of what's in wiki before even reading it
18:35:10 <_dp_> and have no idea what you mean by other stuff
18:37:54 <V453000> yeah but when you have to hurry you don't get anywhere as good results, and therefore don't use nearly as much complexity
18:38:09 <V453000> self regulation has got a lot of new tricks in the last years
18:38:48 <_dp_> V453000, but when you have to hurry you have whole new dimension to optimize - time :p
18:39:42 <_dp_> V453000, no, that includes trains and networks too
18:40:11 <_dp_> V453000, not only you need designs that are effective but fast too build too
18:40:22 <V453000> which is pretty easy to do
18:40:38 <V453000> connect by closest possible track, build primitive station
18:41:47 <Alberth> you reduce time by reducing complexity of what you build
18:42:01 <Alberth> in exchange you build more, probably
18:42:27 <_dp_> you need to max efficiency also
18:42:39 <Alberth> nah, just add more track
18:43:07 <Alberth> scales much better to get more capacity in a short time
18:43:32 <V453000> yes, expanding is not time efficient
18:45:21 <_dp_> Alberth, you rarely need more capacity in one direction than 2-way rail :p
18:45:32 <_dp_> example of trade-off: build hubs or hubless?
18:46:00 <V453000> complex question as fuck XD
18:46:15 <Alberth> I do, regularly, trains run faster when empty :)
18:46:25 <V453000> tiny junctions or none at all XD
18:46:35 <_dp_> V453000, well, what's your answer?
18:47:25 <V453000> I would say it depends a lot on the layout of what you need to get done, junctions somewhere where necessary, and expand by splitting tracks
18:47:27 <V453000> or something along those lines
18:47:33 <V453000> that just comes from trying it a few times
18:48:23 <_dp_> V453000, I meant hubs, junctions are quite straightforward in goal games
18:48:52 <V453000> in my dictionary hubs and junctions are the same, what is the difference for you?
18:49:59 <_dp_> V453000, by hub I mean bring all to one station with transfer and do big line from there
18:50:18 <_dp_> V453000, and hubless is just connecting every industry individually, without transfer
18:50:30 <V453000> right, that is even more retarded than building no junctions XD
18:50:51 <V453000> idk how it compares in speed, I would say one-directional cargoes like coal would be efficient with it, not sure though
18:52:17 <_dp_> which one r you talking about?
18:52:26 <_dp_> every cargo is 2-way in some sense btw
18:53:31 <_dp_> you can always pick same one on other end :p
18:55:18 <V453000> point is fair, is why I love refit :)
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18:56:42 <_dp_> anyway, answer is, hubs are much faster to build and easier to redirect, but less profitable
18:57:43 <_dp_> so, for example, good starting line in cb is coal with hub on town side and hubless on other (if you can build fast enough)
18:57:52 <_dp_> later in game hub is redirected to town
19:07:54 <_dp_> btw, you can't build faster then you get money for it, so mashing buttons is not everything ;)
19:08:47 <_dp_> and with funding there is always what to spend money on
19:10:26 <V453000> let's stop it, we won't get anywhere and it is highly unlikely you will convince me anyway ;P
19:10:48 <V453000> the bigger world issue is that my new signals are rendering fucking slowly :(
19:13:44 <V453000> the new signals might have PBS more friendly with spam :P
19:24:25 <Alberth> they're just too beautiful for a quick render :)
19:25:53 <_dp_> and I suddenly understood why you had to do such unusual design for signals...
19:26:21 <_dp_> I mean when I think that you actually DO use them it suddenly makes sense xD
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19:40:44 <_dp_> damn, now I'm thinking how to improve signals interface...
19:40:51 <_dp_> brain, what r you doing, staph %)
19:41:28 <_dp_> hotkeys for each type and auto-converting when clicked with wrong type will do for starters imo xD
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19:53:53 <_dp_> smth needs to be done about selecting direction, at least for block signals
19:54:34 <_dp_> one way you can drag at least
19:54:46 <_dp_> does anyone use dragging without ctrl btw?)
19:57:22 <Alberth> don't know what that does
19:57:48 <Alberth> I have seen people drag all the way instead of just a few tiles in the right direction though
19:57:57 <_dp_> places signal on segment you marked
19:59:11 <_dp_> yeah, I bet those people don't know about ctrl xD
20:02:07 <_dp_> making two-way block signal a separate type may help actually
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20:03:15 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 39 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: * andythenorth only ever builds PBS
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20:09:20 <V453000> andythenorth you caused something terrible happen
20:10:34 <andythenorth> most winning 32bpp / EZ thing ever
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20:20:16 <Supercheese> what hath science wrought?
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22:10:26 <drac_boy> sorry to ask this again but still just a little confused about it... if a building is larger than 1x1 is it generally broken into sections?
22:18:23 <drac_boy> hm thanks, may just think of offloading that to someone else but we'll see what happens in meanwhile :)
22:18:36 <drac_boy> hows your ongoing gripes with firs economy anyway?
22:19:19 <Alberth> stable, I think, mostly making other economies :)
22:24:01 <drac_boy> one slight long grf question - can an industry grf possibly actually check if any train grfs loaded has a specific cargotype listed or not?
22:29:23 <drac_boy> thought it maybe seemed like a silly idea but had to still ask anyhow. thanks :)
22:30:10 <drac_boy> almost imagined a refinery that would just accept oil for all trains but could accept chemical too if such trainset knew how to carry it - thats why I asked :)
22:31:31 <drac_boy> (I know its sorts the other way around from where a trainset checks for industry)
22:33:20 <drac_boy> anyway just going to work on the trains alone for now...everything else can just wait after all
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