IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-12
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02:20:38 <evert> I'm trying out the the firs newgrf, but I'm missing how to transport "engineering supplies", there is no train type for it?
02:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a train set that supports it
02:29:30 <evert> local only, or will it need something on the server as well?
02:29:43 <evert> and, any suggestions for a good set to go with firs? :)
02:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs to be on the server and all clients
02:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> also, a road set, and a ship set, and a plane set
02:39:37 <evert> ok, any suggestions for a good pack?
02:39:54 <evert> can I do it within the current game that's running on the server, or will it require a new game?
02:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> adding grfs will require a new game
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12:57:06 <argoneus> anyone here plays chess?
13:03:54 <argoneus> want to play a game?
13:04:15 <argoneus> I need to play against people who won't facefuck me
13:09:56 <Wolf01> also I don't have any chess game installed
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13:10:59 <argoneus> Wolf01: I just give you a link
13:11:03 <argoneus> to an online chess place
13:11:08 <argoneus> you don't even need to register
13:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the last chess program i had was the example program that came with Borland Pascal 7
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16:56:03 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, it seem that if you stay far away from enemy ships you do more damage, at least I managed to do 3k-5k instead of 400-900 when in close range
16:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there is certainly a "too close" thing happening
16:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> also, cannon alignment and stuff
16:57:19 <Wolf01> no, the lead balls bounces on the ship and don't give enough damage
16:57:33 <Wolf01> from far away the balls don't bounce
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17:14:27 <_johannes> Why does the Vehicle class have a next and a next_shared pointer?
17:14:39 <_johannes> (and functions to access those)
17:15:11 <_johannes> From the code, it says that shared vehicles seem to share the same train?
17:16:01 <_johannes> I could use Next(), NextShared() and GetNextVehicle() ...
17:16:11 <_johannes> so how to iterate over all vehicles of a train?
17:32:45 <Wolf01> I think that shared stuff is meant for the orders/grouping, do you want to iterate over the wagons of a train?
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17:55:41 <_johannes> hope I marked it right
17:57:09 <Alberth> hmm, and you think I know that? :p
17:57:19 <Alberth> did you check the depot display code?
17:57:34 <Alberth> that has to 'print' all wagons onto the screen
17:58:09 <Alberth> but my guess is Next()
17:59:02 <_johannes> hmm no I did not check that depot code, good idea
17:59:53 <Alberth> next_shared is to have a list of trains that share an order
18:00:30 <Alberth> so the order can just point to the first train
18:01:31 <_johannes> oh, wait, so Vehicle::next_shared can point to the first vehicle of the next train?
18:02:36 <Alberth> next train in the shared orders, I would hop
18:03:16 <Alberth> it should skip trains that have a different order :)
18:04:49 <Alberth> hmm, so there must be a way to find the last wagon too
18:05:13 <Alberth> no idea about that, depot code should be able to tell you
18:06:00 <Alberth> autoreplace could also work, but that code is more difficult
18:06:29 <Alberth> due to newgrf extensions :p
18:07:23 <_johannes> hmmm yes the depot could looks useful...
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18:11:25 <_johannes> the depot code uses FOR_ALL_VEHICLES
18:12:43 <Alberth> nah, it takes time to understand how to approach foreign code :)
18:15:11 <Wolf01> lol, I managed to blow up a ship I had to capture...
18:15:55 <Wolf01> I do too much damage XD
18:17:26 <Wolf01> \o/ I can purchase a frigate now
18:17:37 <Wolf01> doubling the damage I do
18:18:13 <Alberth> now find some more sturdy enemies :p
18:18:30 <_johannes> hmmm FOR_ALL_VEHICLES does not take a reference to the first vehicle of the train... does it iterate over all vehicles of the game? :-/
18:19:15 <Alberth> isn't there a all_trains macro?
18:20:01 <Alberth> 339:#define FOR_ALL_TRAINS(var) FOR_ALL_VEHICLES_OF_TYPE(Train, var)
18:20:40 <_johannes> well, that's still not good to iterate over all vehicles for each train
18:21:50 <_johannes> ok, the Vehicle::Next() worked!
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18:57:42 <andythenorth> also 2 more industries left to draw
18:58:09 <Alberth> oh, new economy of course, I thought you'd run out of IDs
18:58:46 <andythenorth> we have loads of IDs left now :)
18:59:18 <andythenorth> I’m at 76 out of 128
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18:59:40 <andythenorth> I would be surprised if I can push it above 100
18:59:46 <Alberth> oooh, 50 induestries to go :p
19:00:47 <andythenorth> the number of cargos provides an effective brake on number of industries
19:01:07 <andythenorth> at some point, industries start to repeat cargos, or are nonsense :)
19:01:13 <Alberth> yeah, you don't want too many industries
19:02:19 <andythenorth> I think 40 is about right for a large economy
19:02:24 <andythenorth> and around 20 for a basic economy
19:03:06 <Alberth> but I guess design is different of both
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19:22:22 <Quatroking> if I replace trucks, will they automatically be refitted to the cargo they were holding?
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19:58:58 <_johannes> a Vehicle has a VehicleCargoList...
19:59:16 <_johannes> I give up trying to understand it...
20:00:32 <Alberth> you can have several cargoes loaded in a single vehicle, would be my guess
20:00:47 <Alberth> eg mail + passengers in a single wagon
20:00:58 <Alberth> but not sure about this
20:01:55 <Alberth> it can also be a refit list, no idea at all how that works
20:02:16 <Alberth> ie when you select a wagon in the refit window, you get a list of refits you can use
20:02:39 <Alberth> that has to be stored somewhere too :)
20:03:45 <Alberth> or in the order "refit wagon to ..."
20:04:12 <Alberth> yep, mega-complicated, loads of stuff stacked on top of each other :)
20:04:31 <_johannes> hmm it has stuff like DaysInTransit()
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20:08:34 <_johannes> All these helpful comments :P
20:08:45 <_johannes> VehicleCargoList: CargoList that is used for vehicles.
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20:09:11 <Alberth> DaysInTransit is for computing payments
20:09:22 <Alberth> shorter transit times means more money
20:09:58 <_johannes> what does the term "cargo packets" mean?
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20:10:19 <_johannes> is this refit-specific?
20:12:26 <_johannes> or is it like 1 unit of cargo? e.g. if a coal waggon carries "30 coal", it carries 30 packets?
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20:15:06 <_johannes> ahh I think that's it... a cargo packet is one unit, and it can be stored on a train or in a station
20:16:44 <Alberth> units of cargo are packed together as much as possible to reduce computations
20:17:25 <_johannes> you mean like "5 units are one packet" ?
20:17:54 <frosch123> no, all cargo of the same type, origin in the same place are one packet
20:18:31 <frosch123> all coal from station brunswig central in second wagon of train 123
20:19:58 <Alberth> loaded at the same time too ?
20:20:12 <frosch123> it has an average age
20:20:35 <_johannes> so the Vehicle::VehicleCargoList is the list of all packets currently stored in this Vehicle?
20:20:41 <frosch123> when cargo packets from same origin are merged, the average age is weighted according to amounts
20:33:49 <_johannes> frosch123: can you explain why vehicle has a next and a next_shared pointer?
20:33:58 <_johannes> next seems to be the next Vehicle in the train...
20:34:16 <frosch123> next is the next vehicle part in the same consist
20:34:26 <frosch123> in the easiest case the next wagon
20:34:54 <frosch123> so, "next" links between vehicles in the same chain
20:34:57 <_johannes> a more difficult case?
20:35:19 <frosch123> "next_shared" otoh links between consists, which share orders
20:35:50 <frosch123> more difficult case would be articulated vehicles, which appear like one "wagon" to the user, but actualy consist of multiple parts
20:36:18 <frosch123> and also aircraft shadow and helicopter rotor are separate vehicles within the same consist
20:36:59 <frosch123> for example a single vehicle part only carries a single cargo type
20:37:16 <frosch123> the mail compartment of aircraft is actually in the shadow vehicle part
20:38:23 <_johannes> ok, now if we have one order with two trains, then Vehicle::next_shared of the train 1, veh. 1 points to train 2, veh. 1?
20:38:28 <frosch123> anyway, you never use those pointers directly
20:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: each train is a chain, that is traversed via next. and each of these vehicle chains is connected at their head the next_shared. so shared vehicles are a chain of chains
20:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: yes. if you are at train N, vehicle 1, then next_shared will traverse to train N+1, vehicle 1. next will traverse to train N vehicle 2
20:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> from train N vehicle M you can go next to train N vehicle M+1. but next_shared will never be valid for M>1
20:41:45 <frosch123> _johannes: take a look at ScriptVehicleList_SharedOrders::ScriptVehicleList_SharedOrders
20:41:45 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ah ok, makes sense...
20:41:55 <frosch123> it iterates over consists which share orders
20:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: for things like this it's usually easier if you draw it
20:43:59 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: yeah it would be good if such a drawing would be in the docs :D
20:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: or graphviz it :p
20:45:04 <frosch123> docs never explain stuff that is used in dozen of similar incarnations throughout the code
20:45:29 <frosch123> you just don't explain the usage of std::vector whenever using it
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21:01:24 <frosch123> look, it's the guy from greenland
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21:04:47 <andythenorth> how long until April 1st?
21:05:42 <andythenorth> you have a special calendar? o_O
21:07:26 <frosch123> min_active_clients will stop the time on my computer
21:07:43 <Milek7> !wolfram days until april 1st
21:08:31 <mikegrb> from wolram alpha in my menu bar
21:08:56 <andythenorth> I need at least 5 of those for drawing 2 industries :|
21:09:00 <andythenorth> not sure where I’ll get them :)
21:10:51 <frosch123> did you look on ebay?
21:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you talk like there's going to be an openttd release that you have to catch up with
21:13:39 <andythenorth> maybe there won’t be ?
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