IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-11
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09:43:44 <V453000> does that simply apply when the setting is changed?
09:43:51 <V453000> also, do normal block signals have this?
09:44:02 <V453000> since I don't see a duplicate set of sprites for normal block signals :d
09:45:26 <V453000> and 4289-4784 has signals again XD
10:14:13 <andythenorth> can’t believe I actually just opened your spritesheet and looked those numbers up :P
10:16:35 <V453000> mystery why presignals are defined 4 times but normal signals once XD
10:18:36 <planetmaker> V453000, I think every type has a version for left and right hand side driving
10:19:20 <V453000> hi pm .. yes, that is what the text in the spritesheet suggests ... but why is there no duplicate of basic block signals, and why there is yet another duplicate of the presignals? XD
10:19:45 <planetmaker> basic block signals look the same, don't they?
10:20:06 <planetmaker> OpenGFX *code* explains how it is used better than the sprite sheet. It has comments
10:21:29 <V453000> pre-signals don't look the same? :d
10:23:13 <V453000> German signals = normal signals?
10:45:28 <V453000> wtf is that doing in ogfx? XD
10:53:21 <Ketsuban> What does it mean for one of the entries in the list of NewGRFs to be grey instead of yellow?
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11:13:19 <andythenorth> is that just the highlight state?
11:13:23 <andythenorth> is that the one with focus?
11:13:33 <Ketsuban> Nope. You can see there's no info in the right pane.
11:14:04 <Ketsuban> I just opened the window and made it larger for the picture, I didn't highlight anything.
11:18:40 <V453000> I would say it doesnt mean anything and the {SILVER} tag is in the string
12:02:29 <planetmaker> V453000, iirc, the German version is chosen for rhs driving, the British for lhs one
12:02:49 <planetmaker> and they simply have the name after which images they were drawn. iirc also ;)
12:04:48 <V453000> they definitely look exactly the same to me
12:05:25 <V453000> suppose offsets differ
12:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: compare with openttd.grf?
12:09:51 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: openttd's builtin extension to the original base set
12:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: in media/extra_grf
12:11:28 <V453000> am assuming you mean a spritesheet like this? Ogfxe_extra.png
12:11:36 <V453000> in media I have icons only
12:11:42 <V453000> regardless ... I will just make graphics for now
12:11:54 <V453000> cba spending a day figuring out how openttd defines signals
12:12:16 <V453000> I will just replace sprites later and see if it works enough
12:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: have you checked the action5 explanation for signals in the specs?
12:18:15 <V453000> that is the same as I have in ogfx-extra.png
12:18:28 <V453000> except ogfx-extra has it multiple times in different ways
12:18:41 <V453000> which I guess is this shit 04 Supported by OpenTTD 0.60.6 Supported by TTDPatch 2.02.0 Pre-signal graphics 48 04 Supported by OpenTTD 0.60.6 Supported by TTDPatch 2.02.0 Pre-signal and semaphore graphics 112 04,84[1] Supported by OpenTTD Supported by TTDPatch 2.5 (alpha 41)2.5 Pre-signal, semaphore, and PBS graphics 240
12:18:45 <V453000> which makes no sense to me but ok
12:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably want the "Pre-signal, semaphore, and PBS graphics" version
12:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that is basically how the system evolved. every introduction of a new signal type will need more sprites
12:22:07 <V453000> yeah that is what I am thinking
12:22:34 <V453000> but why is each of the 3 sets kept in the spritesheet of ogfx, is what confused me
12:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know either
12:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which i did not check what they do, but probably check the driving side
12:24:31 <planetmaker> there's actually *two* settings: driving side and signal side
12:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and their semantics is a bit odd...
12:27:30 <V453000> ah show signals on driving side
12:29:31 <V453000> doesn't change anything on the fact that the images are identical copies XD
12:29:41 <V453000> but ye, might be offset differences
12:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> difference is mostly in the semaphore graphics, the light signals should be identical
12:30:14 <V453000> ah true didn't check those
12:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to follow this scheme of being based on german/british signals. but being mirror images of each other might help
12:35:17 <V453000> so far my models are symmetrical and I don't intend to make anything like the old mechanical semaphores, they just look shitty to me
12:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in that case, one single action5 should suffice
12:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> with the 240 sprites
12:47:32 <planetmaker> and if you want to skip semaphores you have to duplicate the sprites for electrical signals, of course
12:47:44 <planetmaker> as semaphore sprites are expected
12:48:13 <V453000> I will make 2 different looks of electrical signals
12:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> be also aware that openttd only uses two groups of PBS signal, but the GRF still needs to contain 4 groups
12:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the action 5 contains 7 groups of light signals and 8 groups of semaphore signals (plus the original block signals which are defined elsewhere). but openttd only uses 6 signal types, so 2 types are unused
12:54:33 <V453000> what are they for if they are unused?
12:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> they were originally meant to be entry/exit/combo signals with PBS functionality
12:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but openttd went a different route with implementing PBS and dropped those
12:55:51 <V453000> why make them if they are dropped?
12:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because they were already made
12:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and the specs could not drop them
12:56:28 <V453000> makes no sense to me but whatever
12:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hysterical raisins
12:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs are much older than the implementation
12:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and specs cannot drop things once they are introduced, for backwards compatibility
12:57:56 <V453000> well then, un-drop those signals? :)
12:58:24 <V453000> finally adding an interesting gameplay feature?
12:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd repurposed the "exit" signal as "one-way" signal
12:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and there have not yet been useful implementations for other types of signal
12:59:52 <V453000> combined functionality of pre and PBS sounds useful by the idea of it
13:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but can you come up with meaningful semantics?
13:01:55 <V453000> what do you mean by semantics?
13:02:26 <V453000> easy, go reserve path if presignal is green
13:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> a series of words that convey meaning
13:02:36 <V453000> force stop if presignal is red
13:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there was michi_cc's implementation of "advance signals"
13:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but the main point against such features is usually, that they only cover very narrow use cases, which will not satisfy enough people
13:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: anyway, it is not of concern for a base set author what the signals are used for. you must provide all of them
13:06:47 <V453000> must is a strong word :)
13:10:31 <V453000> so basically michi_cc made something functional and it is not in the game because "only people who understand current signals would benefit"
13:13:25 <V453000> definitely does motivate me to make an alternative base set that "only the few people who like 32bpp will benefit from"
13:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that specific implementation also turned out to be not very good in actual gameplay
13:14:58 <V453000> what does that mean :d
13:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it means things that sound good in theory don't always work out in practice
13:18:07 <V453000> I don't see that being the case here but not like it will change anything
13:19:58 <Ketsuban> tbh it's kind of a shame uptake of 32bpp has been so sluggish. zBase is essentially a challenge to come and do better, and even then you'd still be hard-pressed to put together a good set of NewGRFs if you're even slightly dissatisfied with the vanilla loadouts.
13:20:38 <V453000> it is an example of splitting communities, making both halves basically die
13:20:48 <V453000> at the same time, making 32bpp is harder/more time consuming than 8bpp
13:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: btw. the problem is not "only people who understand current signals would benefit", but "of the people who understand current signals, only a very small fraction will come across a use case for this exact signal, but a much larger fraction will come across a use case for a similar-but-not-exact signal, and demand that included as well"
13:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> which will cause an explosion of signal types, and the game is not ready to handle that
13:23:46 <V453000> uhm if you already have PBS and pre signals combined, I don't think there is much further you can get
13:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you think that. but that doesn't make it true :p
13:25:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but i guarantee you, if you actually tried michi_cc's signals, you would immediately think "wtf is signal X for? that is totally useless, i'd much rather have signal Y."
13:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the diversity in play styles is just too big to accomodate all with the rigid system that we have now
13:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so you must first make the system more flexible, which is orders of magnitude more complicated
13:27:16 <V453000> meh, pointless discussion anyway :) won't bring anything new
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17:14:31 <Wolf01> good, the doctor said my motherboard was struck by ictus... the primary bios is tfu... and as always happen the warranty ended at december :|
17:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause> things always break 3 days after warranty ends.
17:20:56 <Wolf01> yes, it really happened so... the ram was changed in warranty, but we didn't found the mobo problem at that time
17:21:02 <Alberth> yeah, you didn't complain in january it was still working?
17:21:56 <Wolf01> it worked with the secondary bios, I didn't try to fix the primary one
17:22:46 <Wolf01> today I replaced the ram which was ordered back in december and we tried to fix the primary bios
17:24:43 <Wolf01> it doesn't even boot, it did the ram check once and then died
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18:15:42 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, how do you get more cargo space in windward? I have 3 cargo spaces even with the brig of war
18:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i don't have more either.
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19:01:41 <Wolf01> in the steam discussions I read about a brig of war with 5 slots for missions which require to deliver 4 units of goods... maybe it is related to a faction, I chose the consulate
19:08:09 <Wolf01> ok, I need to purchase a galleon
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19:47:16 <frosch123> V453000: there is only one set of signal sprites active at a time
19:47:35 <frosch123> basesets/newgrf can evaluate the "signal side" setting to provide flipped graphics
19:47:38 <V453000> that is what I need to know I guess :)
19:47:49 <frosch123> this is usually the case for semaphores, which are not symmetric like light signals
19:47:56 <frosch123> however, ogfx is broken wrt. this
19:50:42 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that exactly what i said?
19:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so for exchange, the royal brigantine which would be the next ship for me has 4 spaces
19:53:28 <frosch123> the coloured container things are quite hidden away
19:53:38 <frosch123> not idea whether you have multiple layouts
19:53:52 <frosch123> but in this one i would put them on the SW border
19:54:07 <andythenorth> the horizontal tanks?
19:54:12 <frosch123> less "only dark tyres" in one spot
19:54:21 <andythenorth> I think another tile of tyres
19:54:34 <frosch123> i mean the very southern tile in _5.png
19:54:46 <frosch123> are they tanks? i thought containers/boxes :o
19:55:23 <andythenorth> they’re crates and barrels
19:55:32 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, makes sense, the brig of war is the war version of the royal brigantine... so less space due to the more cannons
19:56:47 <Wolf01> but the brigantine should already have more slots than the first one you have
19:56:49 <andythenorth> for general shape
19:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i die way too fast against fire...
19:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> also, how does diplomacy work? i can pay money to pirates to follow me, but somehow not always
19:59:38 <Alberth> andy second photo looks good, weird inustrial thing on top of the roof :)
20:00:39 <andythenorth> rubber or latex silo
20:00:51 <andythenorth> working on that :)
20:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, diplomacy helps with making money from trade, which is why i equiped my ship that way
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20:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also not making a dent in these watchtowers
20:20:35 <Wolf01> you should ask help of other ships
20:20:42 <Wolf01> just right click on them
20:20:44 <argoneus> why are you guys not playing xcom 2
20:20:56 <argoneus> it's like openttd but it has more combat
20:21:00 <Wolf01> because I love slow paced games
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20:21:21 <V453000> well xcom is as slow as you want since it is turn based :)
20:21:58 <V453000> I might buy xcom 2 at some point but definitely not anytime soon
20:22:23 <V453000> don't want to spend the time with it, and I don't feel like it is a game that I look forward to as much as to pay the full price
20:23:04 <Wolf01> also, I always sucked at turn based games
20:23:39 <Wolf01> specially the old xcom
20:24:46 <V453000> tbh I liked old turn based games where characters went, say, 2-8 tiles ... in xcom it feels like you can walk a whole screen a way
20:25:00 <V453000> and to me it seems like tactics are kind of simple in that regard
20:25:09 <V453000> ofc you have shitload of other options in xcom which helps there: )
20:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> arrr... it seems really hard to drive out pirates
20:28:55 <Wolf01> nah, try to upgrade your ship
20:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't trade while there are pirates around
20:33:14 <Wolf01> just roam around and get the floating crates, I upgraded mine with that ones, also mission rewards help a lot
20:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and all the missions are "kill pirate"
20:33:41 <Wolf01> to get better items you need high tier cities
20:34:34 <Wolf01> then just take 2 ships with you and while you stay in front of behind the pirate ship, they will take it down
20:35:26 <Wolf01> or go back to a safer area and boost your xp/money with commerce
20:36:31 <V453000> ok, so which sprite ID should I replace / replacenew to replace old (semaphore?) signals - basic, pre, PBS?
20:36:33 <Wolf01> I can kill alone 2 pirate ships of my size
20:37:42 <frosch123> replace for the normal light signals
20:37:58 <frosch123> replace_new for all non-normal signals, and for semaphores
20:38:43 <V453000> that is what I am reading
20:39:12 <V453000> but where does it say which numbers are the replacenew sprites?
20:39:22 <frosch123> replacenew starts with zero
20:39:38 <frosch123> 0-15 lighted entrance signals
20:39:43 <frosch123> 16-32 lightex exit signals
20:41:09 <V453000> just forget I said anything XD
20:44:10 <V453000> is that the extra unused shit? :(
20:49:11 <frosch123> there are only two types of pbs in ottd
20:49:18 <frosch123> the specs list like 4 for ttdp
20:49:39 <V453000> 7 standard lighted PBS signals 8..14 repeat 0..6 for PBS signals this is confusing
20:49:52 <frosch123> @calc (240-112)/16/2
20:50:05 <frosch123> yeah, 4 pbs types, only first two are used by ottd
20:50:43 <V453000> so 7 is 2way PBS, 8 is 1-way PBS, 9 semaphore 2-way PBS, 10 semaphore 1-way PBS?
20:51:55 <V453000> I always very much hated the semaphore signals in the game ... I can't really tell which is which, especially block from PBS. Now I Fucking Hate them, because browsing in sprite sheets is that much worse XD
20:52:08 <andythenorth> I am -1 to the semaphores
20:52:18 <andythenorth> realism yes, but hard to see
20:52:37 <V453000> BRIX will replace them with something clear to see
20:52:47 <frosch123> i am not sure about the order of the pbs ones
20:53:06 <V453000> pbs1 would mean 1way?
20:53:12 <frosch123> V453000: get inspired by purr
20:53:24 <V453000> yeah I have something similar
20:53:27 <frosch123> just give light signals and semaphores different colours or height or something
20:53:29 <V453000> but combo signals arent blue
20:54:01 <V453000> my current idea is that semaphores will be a bit more abstract, but better to see ... and the modern signals will be a bit more normal signals
20:54:19 <V453000> I will send you a screenshot once I actually get to put them in the game :P
20:55:46 <frosch123> pbs comes before pbs oneway
21:00:11 <V453000> is it just me or are there 2 PBS rows?
21:00:23 <V453000> that I have done frosch123
21:01:16 <V453000> ok will try the latest order you pasted
21:08:29 <V453000> the replacenew sprite numbering does start from 0, right? XD
21:09:37 <frosch123> yes, the sprites are identified by PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS
21:09:42 <frosch123> then it starts from 0
21:09:54 <V453000> just asking to be sure XD
21:12:53 <andythenorth> still not good enough :)
21:13:28 <Alberth> one at the ground longer?
21:13:39 <Alberth> or the one at the roof shorter :p
21:14:18 <Alberth> not sure the brown bits are good, they seem a it weird to me, I expected just black
21:14:41 <Alberth> although metal could work too
21:17:37 <V453000> offsets of all signals fucked up just by replacing the modern entry signals
21:24:33 <andythenorth> I need to unify the colours
21:24:39 <andythenorth> the brown clashes with the white silos
21:25:03 <andythenorth> whole thing needs 1 more building of some type
21:25:18 <V453000> actually yeah gray instead of brown would probably be nicer
21:31:13 <andythenorth> paint bucket eh?
21:31:21 <andythenorth> so many layers :P
21:31:37 <andythenorth> sometimes I don’t have a psd, and I edit directly in a flat spritesheet
21:31:41 <andythenorth> kind of relaxing, for a bit
21:36:35 <V453000> I never worked with layers in sprites
21:36:46 <V453000> all of NUTS is drawn directly in index XD
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21:46:26 <Wolf01> lol, Eddi|zuHause, I just purchased a new hull for 13k with a total points of 196 :P
21:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not quite what i got :p
21:47:43 *** kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK
21:47:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a captain for 168
21:49:32 <Wolf01> my captain has 167, but I think it is the first one I found to purchase on a high tier city
21:50:35 <V453000> doesn't sound like factorio
21:52:04 <andythenorth> all the pixels I tweak
21:52:08 <Wolf01> here you can transport goods too... with ships
21:52:10 <andythenorth> that most will never notice :D
21:53:39 <V453000> yay, code for modern signals works
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21:59:54 <andythenorth> one more building?
22:00:38 <V453000> the previous version of roof details seemed like more variety tbh
22:00:51 <V453000> I think building count is enuf
22:00:52 <Wolf01> some tyres don't seem round
22:00:58 <V453000> just make the brown gray I guess
22:01:15 <andythenorth> I binned off some of the roof detail
22:01:27 <V453000> and yeah the tires I didn't draw are a mess :P
22:02:01 <andythenorth> which brown -> gray?
22:02:20 <V453000> I thought you meant the bottom of the buildings
22:02:25 <V453000> being brown, not fitting as much
22:02:41 <V453000> at the same time it is a nice base for disconnecting with the ground
22:02:49 <andythenorth> I like the idea of grey
22:02:54 <andythenorth> but I think they’ll lack contrast
22:04:06 <V453000> I sez use both of the roof details
22:04:16 <V453000> the latest one seems too copypasted all over the place
22:04:56 <andythenorth> I didn’t like the tanks, they’re a weird colour
22:05:00 <andythenorth> I’ll draw some new
22:05:16 <V453000> slight adjustments might save them
22:06:13 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58
22:13:56 * andythenorth added another building, lazy
22:14:00 <andythenorth> needs some trucks or something?
22:14:47 <V453000> I just realized how proportionally gigantic the original signals are XD which is a good thing for them, apparently
22:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: oh, now i grew a city and i can buy sails with 197
22:18:34 <Alberth> V: and people still think signals are too small :)
22:20:37 <andythenorth> shall I again use the same truck used in every FIRS industry, and in CHIPS?
22:20:45 <andythenorth> or shall I use a new from Road Hog? o_O
22:20:48 <V453000> well cause they use opengfx or some other shit which makes them look way less visible than original
22:20:54 <andythenorth> consistency, or variety? o_O
22:22:40 <Alberth> FIRS has a truck monopoly :)
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22:39:13 <andythenorth> I will fix the roof greeble, but not tonight
22:42:54 <andythenorth> pipes would look better on the roof than these vent things
22:43:06 <andythenorth> pipes are my new favourite thing :P
22:43:23 <Alberth> pipe newgrf on the roof :p
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