IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-08
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00:00:12 <Flygon> But USA is scared of such representative democratic values ?
00:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: how does that help if all candidates suck equally?
00:02:18 <Supercheese> yeah my vote would be "these are all morons"
00:02:27 <Flygon> You go in preference from Least Sucky to Most Sucky
00:02:44 <Flygon> I do advocate a "None of the Above" tickbox tho
00:03:13 <Supercheese> I'd imagine every election would end with that result though...
00:03:26 <Supercheese> "Wellp, nobody won... again"
00:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there was this story about a guy (in canada?) who changed his name to "Above Znonofthe" so at the bottom of the ballot it said "Znonofthe, Above"
00:03:48 <Flygon> Is that if enough recall elections are called
00:03:58 <Flygon> Some electable candidates are bound to be forced up
00:04:10 <Flygon> If a large majority of seats initially kept voting no confidence
00:04:14 <Flygon> It is a huge initial shock
00:04:29 <Flygon> But after the parties/independants get themselves sorted, and become ELECTABLE
00:04:39 <Supercheese> sounds good in theory
00:04:48 <Supercheese> I have my doubts as to its practicality
00:04:53 <Flygon> The idea is that future elections will be more stable due to the politicans being forced to actually listen to their people
00:05:03 <Supercheese> but hey, pretty much anything would be better than the morons currently in
00:05:07 <Flygon> But it'd be nice if it could be trialled
00:05:20 <Supercheese> on every ticket, you get a list of Moron #1, Moron #2...
00:05:28 <Flygon> But the Politicians would roar hard against it. They want a free lifetime job >_>
00:06:13 <Flygon> ON my ticket, I get Labor, Liberals, Greens, Christian Party, Family First, Sex Party (yes, THAT IS A REAL PARTY), Independants, Free Beer for College Students, ect...
00:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i don't quite understand how this is supposed to work...
00:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like "keep this seat empty if everybody votes 'no'?"
00:07:08 <Flygon> It forces a recall election
00:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and what does that do?
00:07:52 <Flygon> You hit the same scenario under standard electoral systems sometimes if the numbers are simply far too close to call
00:08:45 <Flygon> Well, everyone's dragged back to the polling booths (with candidates either dropping out, or new ones contesting the seat), to try and resolve the stalled election
00:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and how does that solve any problems?
00:09:33 <Flygon> Allows the public to express what wankers pollies can be :B
00:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just like every other country that has runoff elections
00:10:02 <Flygon> Are you discussing preferential voting?
00:10:14 <Flygon> Or the "All these Politicians are Wankers" checkbox?
00:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> although, the entire point of preferential voting is to avoid runoff elections. why it's now a benefit to reintroduce them is beyond me...
00:11:59 <Flygon> Well, if someone is ticking the box because they think none of the politicians are even worth consideration, even with a preferential system. And in the incredible unlikelyhood that over 50% of voters would agree with that viewpoint. Clearly all the candidates presented are either incredibly incompetent, or the public incredibly unsatisfied with the operation of the Government as a whole up to that point.
00:12:20 <Flygon> Both of which can reveal even deeper problems endemic in the Government's operation up to that point
00:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in this country there is a new wave of outrage every time that the voter turnout is on a record low, but still nothing ever changes
00:13:14 <Flygon> Incidentally, I'm astounded the UK runs on a "First Past the Post system". Esp. given how many different parties their parliament has.
00:13:29 <Flygon> Eddi: No mandatory voting?
00:13:41 <Flygon> In Australia, you're legally required to vote. Otherwise you're fined.
00:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> mandatory voting is evil(tm)
00:14:00 <Flygon> Obviously, this doesn't stop people from drawing penises onto their ballot then submitting those.
00:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's what communists did in east germany, it must be bad.
00:14:16 <Flygon> But the idea is once they're in, they'll feel like voting anyway
00:14:27 <Flygon> I... can see how you guys feel a bit burned from history x:
00:14:52 <Flygon> iirc, here, it was just introduced because... I forgot why. It was around 1917 when it was legislated
00:14:59 <Flygon> Voter turnout must've been abysmal or something
00:15:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in federal elections it's usually around 70%, in some state elections it drops to 50%
00:16:31 <Flygon> Yeah, here, it's over 90% for both
00:16:38 <Flygon> I do note, the fine here is between $50 and $80
00:16:53 <Flygon> So... some people are so lazy they just pay the fine, because the fine is so absurdly low
00:17:07 <Flygon> They set the values in the 60s or 70s
00:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> in EU elections it's not great either
00:17:19 <Flygon> With inflation, the fines should be around $500-800
00:18:53 <Flygon> I'm just surprised how undemocratic a lot of European electoral systems can be
00:19:00 <Flygon> I expected them all to be very similar to Australia
00:19:07 <Flygon> ie. mandatory voting, preferences
00:19:11 <Flygon> But a large chunk aren't
00:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody has preferential voting...
00:19:43 <Flygon> How do you run a democracy without it?...
00:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> half of the countries has proportional voting, and the other half has runoff elections
00:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so if in the first round of voting, nobody has 50%, then two weeks later an election will be held between the two candidates with the most votes
00:20:44 <Flygon> Proportional Voting...
00:20:57 <Flygon> That... sorta kinda exists here for certain elections
00:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and no two voting systems are ever the same
00:21:09 <Flygon> They're a massive controversy due to how manipulable they have become
00:21:36 <Flygon> It's really not easy to get into the nitty gritty without explaining how the electoral system works here in-depth x:
00:22:14 <Flygon> <Eddi|zuHause> so if in the first round of voting, nobody has 50%, then two weeks later an election will be held between the two candidates with the most votes
00:22:21 <Flygon> That's not really very democratic...
00:22:27 <Flygon> It's a statistics failure :(
00:22:48 <Flygon> Given the strong likelyhood that, in such a scenario, somone coming in 3rd or 4th place, with preferences, could actually come out #1
00:22:57 <Flygon> As has occoured localy
00:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but as most countries are used to two-party systems, that's rarely an issue
00:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you'll never know...
00:23:53 <Flygon> Just because you're used to it, doesn't mean it's good for you :(
00:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but look at the elections in france... there's a regional spike in a 3rd (extreme right wing) party, and in the runoff election everybody is like "oh fuck, we need to keep these guys out"
00:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which result in some crazy left-right broad coalitions for voting for the other candidate
00:28:48 <Flygon> It's pretty difficult for the extreme Right to get a foothold here
00:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's much easier in proportional systems
00:30:01 <Flygon> Strangely, the effect I HAVE noticed
00:30:14 <Flygon> Is that the Left can get an easier foothold
00:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably going to swap if you have a refugee crisis :p
00:32:29 <Flygon> Australian Politics and Refugees
00:32:35 <Flygon> I really REALLY don't want to get into that
00:32:54 <Flygon> Mainly because the UN's declared that we've been violating human rights with our detention centres
00:32:59 <Flygon> The child rape stuff doesn't help
00:33:25 <Flygon> And yet we have European parties claiming this's the greatest thing since sliced bread
00:33:30 * Flygon puts his head in his hands
00:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but you haven't had a million refugees in a year
00:34:02 <Flygon> Given our geography, and the demographics coming through to here
00:34:12 <Flygon> We can more than reliably handle any incoming flow
00:34:43 <Flygon> Particulary since that, bar going by boat (which tends to deter all but the most incredibly desperate), the only way to come in is by Airplane.
00:35:08 <Flygon> But the major parties here have latched onto the issue in an attempt to grab votes from Sydneysiders
00:35:16 <Flygon> And I do mean Sydneysiders specifically
00:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there'll always be the "but WE were here FIRST" and the "but THEY are all CRIMINALS" camps
00:35:29 <Flygon> Technically the Aboriginals were here first.
00:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> sure. but they don't count.
00:35:49 <Flygon> But I can see why the "but THEY are all CRIMINALS" camp would ignore that fact xP
00:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but look at the US, with all the white people being afraid of mexican immigrants
00:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same exact two arguments
00:37:21 <Flygon> Humans are scared of what's foriegn =/
00:37:50 <Flygon> The Sydneysiders would freak out if they went on my trainline
00:38:08 <Flygon> I'm on the only portion of it that ISN'T predominantly Black, Asian, Middle-Eastern, or all of the above xP
00:49:15 <Flygon> I'm not privy on the current operations of Russia
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17:16:22 <Milek7> posting something on bugtracker is like sending it into /dev/null
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20:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you missed a "g" at the end
20:06:46 <Alberth> nah, and can have a few hogs too :)
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20:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a horsehog?
20:35:56 * Rubidium wonders why some news outlets can be so stupid...
20:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: it somehow fails to mention what it's measuring
20:37:28 <Rubidium> making large claims that some tool can make eavesdropping on the police very simple, when all it is is looking for effectively the signal-to-noise ratio of the frequency the police uses
20:37:45 <Wolf01> time to learn the language, from an english point of view I suppose, as english is not there
20:38:01 <Alberth> it's off the scale :p
20:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but learn up to which level?
20:38:41 <Wolf01> "understandable conversation"
20:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: sure, but that's just a guess on your part. it doesn't say that.
20:39:14 <Alberth> Rubidium: but "eavesdropping police" sounds so much better than "measuring radio transmission power by the police"
20:39:45 <Alberth> or even "locating the police" probably
20:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but certainly knowing whether someone is in a room makes eavesdropping on that room way easier.
20:41:01 <Rubidium> now the criminals can see whether cops are nearby... yeah, so... let the cops game the system and occasionally send out some stronger signals
20:41:37 <Rubidium> makes criminals think police is on patrol nearby whereas they aren't
20:42:23 <Rubidium> but as always... it's bashing the system the police uses because it's "bad" (where the actual badness comes from not using it as specified/documented)
20:45:41 <Crisco> Can someone direct me to the original TT graphics file?
20:47:36 <Alberth> wow, it's still for sale :)
20:47:39 <Crisco> Thanks - I thought it was downloadable and could be played on OpenTTD? Could you direct me to any alternative graphics that work with OpenTTD
20:48:01 <Wolf01> V453000 is making some
20:48:22 <Crisco> I used to play OpenTTD years ago. Redownloaded it the other day and the graphics seem very different to what I used to have
20:48:27 <Alberth> doesn't the windows installer download them automagically?
20:48:39 <V453000> Crisco: you are looking for the TTD windows graphics instead of OpenGFX probably
20:48:57 <Alberth> oh, then you probably already have the opengfx data
20:49:43 <V453000> I think the ttd base set should be made public for free usage tbh
20:49:46 <Alberth> Crisco: original graphics are copyrighted, and cannot be ditributed, so the only way is to buy a tycoon deluxe cd
20:49:49 <V453000> since the original game is impossible to buy anymore
20:51:24 <Wolf01> I purchased mine at gamestop for 3.50€ :P
20:52:34 <V453000> I have one somewhere I bought some years ago but I don't feel any bad about redistributing the graphics files
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20:54:31 <Alberth> ha, buy locomotion, just $9.95 :)
20:54:46 <V453000> how is that relevant? :D
20:55:22 <Alberth> who knows how much money you can make in a few years :p
20:56:03 <V453000> ah you mean to re-sell
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20:57:44 <AdmiralKew> I just seriously got back into TTD
20:58:41 <AdmiralKew> I'm not quite sure how to place path signals, however
20:59:53 <V453000> don't :) block signals let you learn the game better
21:01:09 <Alberth> path signals should be placed at the point where a waiting train does not bother you, eg by blocking a junction
21:02:01 <AdmiralKew> So if I've got a 3-way junction, it'd be better to use block signals?
21:02:19 <AdmiralKew> Here's my most successful path junction layout yet
21:03:55 <Alberth> signals look good, although the normal tactic is to have dedicated directions of traffic for tracks
21:04:25 <Alberth> as that gives much better results in throughput, and less surprises in trains going "in the wrong direction"
21:05:11 <AdmiralKew> The lower three tracks service a pair of coal mines, while the uppermost one services the ore mine
21:05:48 <AdmiralKew> I had to combine them all into one system when I started delivering the steel from it
21:06:01 <Alberth> so all tracks have traffic in both directions?
21:07:03 <Milek7> how to insert line break in language file?
21:08:03 <Alberth> AdmiralKew: ah, one train for each mine would work
21:08:52 <Alberth> hmm, more than one might also work to some extent, until you run out of platforms (2 thus)
21:09:08 <Alberth> Wolf01: :) I try that too at times :p
21:10:20 <Milek7> hm, there is bulitin function in squirrel for checking if element exist in array?
21:10:56 <AdmiralKew> The four track layout outside the platforms was to help remedy that
21:12:32 <Milek7> ah, it looks it is in squirrel 3, but not 2 :(
21:14:05 <Alberth> yeah, the point is, a safe spot is in front of the signal, which means an outgoing at the platform train going in the same direction is stuck at the platform. The 2nd platform is then needed to clear the outgoing track
21:15:13 <Alberth> now if you have 3 trains in one direction, the 3rd train could in theory be at the 2nd platform and you have a deadlock
21:15:40 <Alberth> but these things happen when you have a single track to/from a mine
21:17:37 <AdmiralKew> It does happen sometimes
21:19:08 <Alberth> you can make small part double track
21:20:13 <Alberth> enough to store all trains that may want to go in, thus always leaving a track free for outgoing traffic
21:20:43 <AdmiralKew> That's what I did with some parts of the system
21:21:18 <Alberth> alternatively, instead of 4 tracks dual direction, use 1 track and 1 track out, until the point where the tracks diverge
21:22:11 <Alberth> that should have enough storage for all trains
21:24:15 <Milek7> you have inflation enabled?
21:26:54 <Alberth> I prefer to play more sandbox-ish :)
21:28:24 <AdmiralKew> Though, I can't fathom how to deliver goods to cities
21:29:14 <Alberth> ? build a station near the center, bring goods ?
21:42:17 <AdmiralKew> Has there been a decision on merging stations after they're built in later builds?
21:42:53 <frosch123> do you mean distant join?
21:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> merging stations that are already built will never happen
21:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you can only attach new parts to an existing station
21:45:55 <AdmiralKew> Is this an engine limitation?
21:46:09 <frosch123> no, just noone added a method to the gui
21:46:24 <frosch123> usually you know during construction what you want to join
21:47:18 <frosch123> unless you fail to select the right station in the distant join window, and only notice after you have already routed the viehlces
21:47:22 <frosch123> like i did last weekend :p
21:47:51 <frosch123> but the easy workaround is to add the correct station to the shared vehicle orders behind the wrong station, and then delete the wrong station from the orders
21:48:09 <frosch123> that will make all vehicle skip to the right order
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22:00:25 <AdmiralKew> I bought exclusive rights to the only city my opponent was servicing
22:06:05 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27507 /trunk/src (4 files) (2016-02-08 22:05:57 +0100 )
22:06:06 <DorpsGek> -Add: [NewGRF] Allow custom sound IDs in RV property 0x12, ship property 0x10 and aircraft property 0x12.
22:06:37 <AdmiralKew> How stable is the nightly/beta by the way?
22:08:52 <sim-al2> It usually works fine, but since changes are being made daily, bugs could potentially occur
22:10:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:14:33 <AdmiralKew> Like Cataclysm DDA then!
22:14:42 <AdmiralKew> Is there a changelog I could look at?
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22:16:50 <frosch123> it's more than stable, it's even stagnant :p
22:17:00 <AdmiralKew> Also, I did this to my opponent out of sheer spite
22:17:40 <frosch123> AdmiralKew: poor ai, are you not ashamed?
22:31:14 <AdmiralKew> Should I set my buses to wait for a full load?
22:32:05 <Alberth> they are not full already?
22:32:47 <AdmiralKew> I've got 1000 passengers at most stations
22:34:35 <Alberth> yeah, buses tend to be hopeless at getting all pax moved, so they are full by default already
22:35:47 <AdmiralKew> Also, is there a newGRF out there that allows you to move passengers to industries?
22:36:22 <Alberth> but check your buses :p
22:36:42 <Alberth> euhm, yeah, the mczapkie one, how was it called again
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22:46:02 <AdmiralKew> Is it compatible with ECS?
22:46:34 <Milek7> no, it is whole industry set
22:46:47 <Milek7> industry sets cannot be mixed
23:38:40 <AdmiralKew> Also, where have the OpenGFX+ addons gone?
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