IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-06
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00:54:18 <Flygon_> Eddi|zuHause: Melbourne's Trams are designed for 80km/h, have hit 90-95km/h (yes, in service). Reportedly clocked in @ 115km/h for a W-Class / PCC Tram hybrid.
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00:54:44 <Flygon> (W-Class everything, bar the control equipment, which was PCC)
00:55:13 <Flygon> I wouldn't put it past current low floor Trams (ie. the E-Class) to hit 115km/h on good track
00:55:26 <Flygon> But the charactaristics of the network make this improbable
00:56:39 <sim-al2> I'm sure wire contact would be poor at those speeds too
01:08:15 <Quatroking> sim-al2, why's that? The train I ride daily hits 130km/h all the time
01:08:32 <Quatroking> isn't the wire contact thingy the same on trains and trams
01:09:46 <sim-al2> Tram wiring is usually not as high tech, although on modern systems it's probably fine
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01:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Quatroking: catenary is susceptible to waves at higher speeds, so high speed catenary has special designs to counter those
01:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody is going to put 300km/h certified catenary on tram tracks
01:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if you look at tram catenary, it usually hasn't got a lot of support points, so it is quite loose
01:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> train catenary usually has two wires, a contact wire and a support wire
01:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> this increased support allows to put higher tension on the cable, so it cannot move as much
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03:45:34 <Flygon> Tram catenary changes depending on the part of the network here
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09:47:07 <Alberth> haha, the load looks heavier than the carrying truck :)
09:48:06 <andythenorth> it is probably only 120hp engine too
09:48:10 <andythenorth> low gearing though
09:53:38 <andythenorth> first 2 generations of trucks can’t reach their top speed, HP is too low
09:53:56 <andythenorth> if they have 16 tiles or so of flat straight road they get to top speed
09:54:51 <andythenorth> the capacity is about twice realism
09:55:02 <V453000> I really hate realistic acceleration for RVs tbh
09:55:08 <andythenorth> which means laden weight is twice realism
09:55:18 <andythenorth> so I should just cheat HP, yes?
09:55:22 <Supercheese> which mean duplex horses
09:55:39 <Supercheese> should be dependent on your parameter setting no?
09:56:03 <andythenorth> boring to code that
09:56:33 <Supercheese> well, not extra code, I mean your parameters already state that the capacities are more-than-realistic
09:56:47 <Supercheese> so extra horses is expected as well
09:57:21 <Supercheese> extra code optional
09:57:32 <andythenorth> well I could adjust HP to match capacity cheat
09:57:35 <Supercheese> parameters are nice, but yeah they conflate your switch blocks massivelyt
09:58:12 <V453000> I am always trapped between the idea of "parameters are nice to have"and "you should just put the grf in the game and it should just work"
09:58:20 <V453000> sensible defaults are certainly helpful but still
09:59:30 <_johannes> is there something like int32_t in the openttd source?
10:01:10 <andythenorth> V453000: I am “you should just put it in the game and it should work"
10:01:21 <andythenorth> but a few parameters for cheating are ok
10:26:07 <andythenorth> ha looks like I already made RV TE much higher than default
10:26:14 <andythenorth> because otherwise acceleration sucks
10:31:42 <_johannes> for that graph converter I'm writing, I need a small header + cpp file which need both be included by openttd and the exporter...
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10:31:59 <_johannes> what is a good place in the source tree to put these files?
10:32:55 <_johannes> also, where should I put the cpp file for the external graph converter? (it has its own main() function)
10:34:40 <Flygon> Well, I just hit the wrong channel
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10:50:43 <Alberth> _johannes: look at eg how strgen does it
10:50:55 <_johannes> Alberth: they have an own directory
10:51:25 <_johannes> so I should put the common files there, too?
10:52:13 <Alberth> and strgen uses code of the main program , like #include "../misc/getoptdata.h"
10:53:53 <Alberth> common code is best in src, and not in directories of other programs
10:54:09 <Alberth> makes it easy to strip out all the additional programs
10:54:31 <andythenorth> TE coefficient capped at 1
10:54:46 <Alberth> I hope it's afraction? :)
10:55:04 <andythenorth> I need more than 1 :P
10:56:31 <_johannes> Alberth: should common files also be in the src directory if that common code is only use by openttd for the graph video driver?
10:57:19 <Alberth> aren't there dedicated directories for video drivers?
10:58:17 <Alberth> not sure that "graph" is a very useful name, it feels a bit too generic
10:58:22 <_johannes> Alberth: yes, but I don't want to spoil them with files like "common.h" :P
10:58:46 <_johannes> Alberth: yes, maybe railnet or something might be better
10:58:51 <Alberth> a lot of things can be called "graph", not in the last place all the cargo-dist stuff
10:59:39 <Alberth> I wouldn't worry too much about the place of the file; it's easy to move it afterwards
10:59:39 <andythenorth> “Use more specific, concrete, and informative synonyms like users_by_id or on_success.”
10:59:53 <andythenorth> “Vague names like lookup_table or callback are useless in much application code"
11:00:51 <_johannes> Alberth: ok, thanks
11:01:35 <Alberth> I have already started to see program code as just text like a normal report, but it just happens to be understandable for a computer too :)
11:03:03 <Milek7> server can modify companies money?
11:09:27 <andythenorth> there is a nice quote from the novelist Kingsley Amis “the purpose of writing is to be understood"
11:09:29 <andythenorth> applies to code also
11:09:37 <andythenorth> even if the only reader is Future You
11:11:18 <planetmaker> Milek7, with the proper game script: yes
11:11:23 <Alberth> /me makes link from understandable code to documented code
11:11:29 <planetmaker> good morning everyone :)
11:13:41 <Alberth> right, doxymentation is not different, it's an extension of writing understandable code....
11:14:57 <Alberth> yep good morning indeed, merged two topics into one :)
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11:19:31 <V453000> just increase weight andy
11:19:48 <V453000> idk how that works with RVs but with trains it is the only way :)
11:20:19 <Flygon> To roll out roads just like traintracks in OpenTTD
11:20:25 <Flygon> But that'd be a major MAJOR patch :3
11:21:01 <Flygon> More realistic things like... say
11:21:07 <Flygon> You have a Freeway offramp
11:21:13 <Flygon> So you create another lane to the left
11:21:18 <Flygon> It goes for a hundred or so meters
11:21:24 <Flygon> Then diverges off to the other road
11:21:31 <Flygon> (assuming drive on the left)
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11:22:22 <Alberth> you'll get hopelessly entangled in the grid limitations very fast, I think
11:22:55 <Alberth> I once tried working out how to do a diagonal road in a grid, and it failed for me
11:23:19 <Flygon> I'm no computer scientist
11:23:26 <Flygon> Or anything really intelligent
11:23:35 <V453000> but the thing is, the roads would be surprisingly ugly for you
11:23:45 <V453000> current roads have round corners
11:23:51 <V453000> diagonal roads couldn't
11:23:51 <Alberth> Flygon: not in code, just on paper, in a grid
11:24:14 <Flygon> Well... they COULD have rounded corners with a lot of beating around making a shitload of art assets
11:24:26 <Flygon> But then it becomes a mangled mess of trying to make shit pretty
11:24:32 <andythenorth> in the 1st generation, these trucks have 150% of realistic HP
11:24:34 <V453000> not happening wiht openttd
11:24:42 <andythenorth> but by 4th generation they have 100% of realistic HP
11:24:43 <Flygon> Perhaps with a 3D rendererr
11:25:03 <Flygon> Pre-rendering hits the same issues with trying to render EVERYTHING
11:25:08 <andythenorth> * assuming all truck companies buy most powerful Volvo / Scania trucks
11:25:18 <Flygon> Same thing happens with any computer app :D
11:25:25 <Flygon> Do you pre-render a visual effect? Or do you generate it live?
11:25:29 <Flygon> It's just easier to generate it live
11:25:35 <Flygon> Even if your hardware's really weak
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11:26:34 <Flygon> We're not going to implement a 3D renderer into OpenTTD, I presume xP
11:27:08 <andythenorth> hmm, I could do Dutch lorries :P
11:27:15 <andythenorth> then power could be 50% of what it is now
11:27:56 <V453000> This NewGRF is not expecting any hills.
11:28:14 <andythenorth> flat country, frugal truck drivers
11:28:29 <andythenorth> truck HP has been pushed upwards constantly by Scania and Volvo
11:28:40 <andythenorth> Scania had 350hp in 1968
11:28:56 <andythenorth> not just a train channel
11:29:35 <V453000> I actually wanted to make a RV set for some weird reason
11:29:57 <andythenorth> bit super realisms though :)
11:30:24 <andythenorth> sooner have BRIX style RVs
11:31:10 <V453000> will see, but probably won't be using these models anywhere for now :D
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11:31:38 <andythenorth> they’re nice, but not TTD eh
11:31:59 <V453000> anything can be TTD eh
11:32:13 <Flygon> Let's put a Flygon into OpenTTD
11:32:18 <andythenorth> ah, the world of not enough sleep for andythenorth
11:32:29 <Flygon> Airspeed: I cbf doing the calculations
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11:33:22 <Supercheese> wouldn't work well in arctics, Flygon's are 4x vulnerable to ice IIRC
11:33:48 <Supercheese> or if pokeys even use plurals
11:33:58 <Supercheese> might be non-count nouns
11:34:33 <Supercheese> but yeah dragon/ground or something is very bad against ice
11:34:41 <Flygon> Flygon and Flygons are both acceptable multiples
11:34:48 <Flygon> "That's a lot of Flygon!"
11:34:57 <Flygon> "Those Flygon are crazy!"
11:35:03 <argoneus> good morning train friends
11:35:04 <Supercheese> I know Japanese has no plural form for their nouns
11:35:12 <Flygon> "I've seen a lot of Flygons in my time, but this one's the stupidest"
11:35:35 <Supercheese> but most things get localized with their own English names
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11:46:52 <argoneus> Supercheese: they kinda do
11:47:01 <argoneus> they just add -tachi or something after it
11:47:13 <Supercheese> for pronouns sure, but not for general nouns eh
11:47:35 <argoneus> I don't really speak jap so you're probably right
11:52:06 <Supercheese> Well, neither do I, but I like reading about other languages' features that are very different from English
11:52:20 <Supercheese> like German and its prefix conjugations
11:53:09 <Supercheese> I had only ever encountered suffix conjugations in English, Spanish, and Latin, so it was very different
11:57:37 <Supercheese> even though the prefixing seems limited to the past participle
12:00:57 <Ketsuban> I've generally understood -tachi as being more akin to "and co" than "-s".
12:01:30 <Ketsuban> Aside from certain special cases (e.g. wareware "we", from ware "I") Japanese genuinely has no plurals.
12:03:49 <Ketsuban> If you like foreign grammatical structures you might find the use of count words in Japanese and Chinese interesting - it's something we have in English (head of cattle, slices of bread) but they use it much more (it's more or less obligatory, and they can get quite specialised, e.g. there's a count word for aircraft).
12:04:47 <Supercheese> with no grammatical number, it would indeed seem necessary
12:18:40 <andythenorth> quite the pattern
12:31:17 <Alberth> andy and albert do it too, we just wait a little longer :)
12:33:08 <andythenorth> articulated trucks and TE :P
12:38:40 <andythenorth> to get proper value for TE, I need to move some % of capacity to the lead unit
12:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> comes, goes <-- you are certainly a master of that skill...
12:47:51 <andythenorth> I talk more in between
12:48:37 <andythenorth> so articulated RVs, the unladen weight is all on lead unit
12:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you are also master of monologues
12:48:42 <andythenorth> but the cargo weight is applied per vehicle?
12:48:54 * andythenorth might have to read RV physics
12:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's all combined in the head unit
12:49:32 <andythenorth> my code thinks so
12:49:38 <andythenorth> TE calculation doesn’t concur
12:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure the code is a terrible mess :p
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12:53:11 <andythenorth> purchase menu disagrees with vehicle in game
12:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> purchase menu is tricky with articulated parts
12:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause> because callbacks cannot be run for the articulated parts
12:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> since they don't exist
12:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it just extrapolates by (number of vehicles)*properties
12:58:53 <frosch123> the callbacks are run for all articulated parts
12:59:12 <frosch123> just the callback cannot check the position in the chain
12:59:41 <frosch123> you cannot check other vehicle ids and stuff
13:00:20 <andythenorth> according to spec, weight is on the lead unit for RVs
13:00:25 <andythenorth> and trailing parts should be 0
13:03:25 <andythenorth> hmm Road Hog does bad
13:03:28 <andythenorth> trailing parts are not 0
13:03:32 <andythenorth> happens to work ok
13:03:53 <frosch123> currently ottd does not care about the weight of trailing parts
13:04:12 <frosch123> the spec says it should be 0, in case ottd 3.0 adds support for them having weight
13:04:35 <frosch123> and so that behaviour does not change
13:04:38 * andythenorth is going to fix that anyway
13:04:42 <andythenorth> because confusing
13:10:40 <Milek7> local v = GSTownList ();
13:10:40 <Milek7> GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (v.GetValue (v.Next ())));
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13:14:37 <Alberth> why do you "v.GetValue" if "v.Next" already gives the next item?
13:14:44 <frosch123> use "foreach (town in v) { GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (town)); }" or "for (local town = v.Begin(); !v.IsEnd(); v = v.Next()) { ... }"
13:15:15 <frosch123> in your case "v" is a list, not an iterator
13:15:52 <frosch123> also, you skip the first element, and access the one element past the end
13:16:28 <frosch123> "for (local town = v.Begin(); !town.IsEnd(); town = town.Next()) { ... }" <- mistyped the second example, this is better
13:18:48 <frosch123> no, ah, this is confusing
13:21:18 <Milek7> local v = GSTownList (); foreach (town in v) { GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (town)); }
13:21:23 <Milek7> this prints one name in loop
13:24:00 <_johannes> how likely is it that the bit width of StationID (2 bytes) or CargoID (1 byte) will change in the future?
13:24:28 <Milek7> ok, this with for (local it = indtypes.Begin(); !indtypes.IsEnd(); it = indtypes.Next()) works
13:27:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: how does the flour mill work?
13:27:30 <frosch123> the text says: 3t per 8t man supplies, 5t per 8t maize/cassava
13:27:41 <frosch123> but it also says production steps up of man supplies are delivered
13:28:17 <andythenorth> it combines mnsp with any other delivered cargo
13:28:25 <andythenorth> bit weird, but never thought of a better solution
13:28:37 <andythenorth> there are multiple industries using the same mechanic
13:29:30 <frosch123> so, do man supplies result in production on their own?
13:29:47 <frosch123> does the 5t per 8t change when man supplies are delivered?
13:32:12 <andythenorth> most secondaries just sum the ratios for the inputs
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13:32:44 <andythenorth> but for some, the ratio would then exceed 8 if summed
13:45:23 <andythenorth> or maybe just copy
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13:46:14 <andythenorth> I have an object (represents a vehicle), I need to copy it to insert it multiple times into a list, with different props
13:46:19 <andythenorth> copy is probably ok?
13:48:17 <andythenorth> meh it’s all a mess :|
13:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: very unlikely
13:50:41 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
13:52:24 <sark> How are you guys doing ?
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14:12:37 <andythenorth> sometimes, to do a greater good
14:12:41 <andythenorth> a small evil is necessary
14:12:58 <V453000> big evil is not a bad thing either
14:13:02 <V453000> what did you do andythenorth ?
14:14:48 <thecurryguy_> nm I just joined the forums
14:15:01 <andythenorth> “# semi-trucks need some capacity moved to lead unit to gain sufficient TE…this automagically does that"
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14:18:11 <_johannes> does someone think that "railnet" is a good name for the railway network exporter? is it clear enough?
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14:19:42 <thecurryguy> woops chrome crashed
14:21:02 <Alberth> _johannes: ever plan to extend to roads or shipping lines?
14:21:43 <_johannes> Alberth: Good question. I wonder if it's still overviewable if you add bus nets to each station...
14:21:53 <_johannes> for plains, it might make more sense...
14:22:19 <thecurryguy> can you guys help me out a bit
14:22:30 <Alberth> thecurryguy: the usual tactic is to just dump the qeustion :)
14:23:06 <thecurryguy> I read the chat rules sorry won't happen again :)
14:23:20 <thecurryguy> well which are the must have grfs ?
14:23:22 <Alberth> np, many new users do that :)
14:23:32 <_johannes> Alberth: any better idea to get other things like plains into the name? just calling it "net" doesn't make it more clear than "graph", I think
14:24:07 <_johannes> is a plane a vehicle? oO
14:24:24 <thecurryguy> I already have the Japanese net set
14:24:25 <_johannes> it can only "drive" on an airport
14:24:38 <Alberth> thecurryguy: well, what kind of game do you play?
14:24:40 <thecurryguy> wrong it can only park on an airport
14:24:43 <_johannes> yes, but aircraft-net makes it strange for trains :P
14:25:02 <Alberth> there is no such thing as universal must-have newgrfs
14:25:12 <Alberth> everybody plays openttd :p
14:25:20 <Alberth> but some focus on transport
14:25:22 <thecurryguy> but still something that every one should have
14:25:41 <Alberth> others on making nice pictures or mimicing real-life stations
14:26:05 <Alberth> some want to make big complicated junctions
14:26:18 <Alberth> or be very competitive
14:26:23 <thecurryguy> well I am more of a creator you can say
14:28:02 <Alberth> a whole forum filled with them :)
14:28:12 <V453000> when I see this kind of shit, my beain is committing suicide
14:29:06 <Alberth> thecurryguy: you want newobject newgrfs then, the forum there has lists, and zillion of pictures for drooling at
14:32:02 <andythenorth> all kinds of wrong :P
14:33:57 <V453000> I find it hard to identify what kind of wrong actually andythenorth :P
14:33:58 <Alberth> I hope you don't have to jump trains to go to work V :) looks like a bad place for a HQ
14:34:28 <LordAro> Alberth: you think V walks anywhere? he has helicopters
14:34:54 <Alberth> hmm, of course, why didn't I think of that :p
14:35:20 <thecurryguy> Alberth do you host ?
14:35:32 <frosch123> LordAro: i doubt he uses a helicopeter, he rather rides a yeti
14:35:44 <LordAro> frosch123: ah, of course
14:36:06 <LordAro> yetis can easily jump the tracks
14:36:56 <thecurryguy> Alberth I mean multiplayer match or something like that
14:37:09 <andythenorth> hey look, some of those signals are wrong way roung
14:41:53 <LordAro> Your username or IP address has been blocked. "
14:42:39 <LordAro> frosch123: undo block id #5 please? :)
14:44:08 <frosch123> LordAro: not possible, it does those things automatically
14:44:13 <frosch123> they expire after some hours
14:44:21 <LordAro> "an expiry time of indefinite"
14:44:32 <V453000> can someone ban Flygon please?
14:44:36 <LordAro> was put in place a month ago
14:45:17 <frosch123> LordAro: basically we ban users on the wiki, the wiki then randomly decides to ban the internal ip of the webgateway
14:45:20 <Flygon> You know whyyyy I posted that in reply to his :D
14:46:22 <LordAro> wonder how many other people have my IP address
14:46:32 <Wolf01> I have too many games, I don't know which one could entertain me today :|
14:46:35 <Flygon> I'd rather build a stack interchange
14:46:42 <Alberth> Flygon: lots of space for such a low quantity of trains
14:46:50 <frosch123> LordAro: it's not your ip adress :p
14:46:52 <Flygon> But pre-1940s, a non-weaving cloverleaf has less hills to climb for low-TE equipment
14:47:13 <frosch123> LordAro: it's the ip of openttd.org's own webgateway
14:47:16 <Flygon> Also, OpenTTD makes building a FAST stack interchange a nightmare
14:47:24 <frosch123> thus it blocks random users for random hours or something
14:48:09 <LordAro> frosch123: that's... odd
14:48:23 <Alberth> can't have users actually using the wiki, obviously
14:49:58 <frosch123> i am not sure about the default values
14:50:11 <frosch123> i don't like the original ones, so i changed them to my liking :p
14:50:54 <Flygon> Noting that I also play for aesthetics
14:50:55 <andythenorth> do you know which ones you changed?
14:51:01 <andythenorth> and are you going to push a commit?
14:52:48 <frosch123> i reduced the effect of enhanced to +40% instead of +100%
14:53:17 <frosch123> i increased the requirement for gung ho from 400% to 1000%, and reduced the effect from +300% to +260%
14:54:04 <frosch123> the gameplay effect is, that you can easily get enhanced on all industries
14:54:13 <frosch123> but gung ho only for very few
14:54:17 <andythenorth> gung ho isn’t fun
14:54:40 <frosch123> in my game i put all industries to enhanced using railmotors
14:54:40 <andythenorth> push it, I can test it in my current game?
14:54:56 <frosch123> and dumped all remaining supplies into one industry to reach gung ho
14:54:56 <andythenorth> it’s all cbs iirc so I can reload newgrfs
14:55:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: clearly you weren’t using cdist? :P
14:55:47 <frosch123> i rather miss factorio style conditional orders, than cdist
14:57:11 <frosch123> stuff like "only go to station if more than 200t are waiting"
14:57:29 <frosch123> would allow me to distribute low amounts of supplies continuously
14:57:41 <V453000> how about having more levels than just 3?
14:57:41 <frosch123> but remove any remaining stuff
14:57:52 <frosch123> currently i do the latter my using non full load orders with big tranis
14:58:09 <frosch123> V453000: makes no sense
14:58:22 <frosch123> you get more output by spreading cargo
14:58:57 <frosch123> gung ho is only consolation prize
14:59:03 <frosch123> if you have nowhere to spread to anymore
14:59:28 <frosch123> the goal of "enhanced" is to deliver some supplies to everyone
14:59:51 <frosch123> the point of "gung ho" is only so you can do something if you have "enhanced" everywhere, but still leftover supplies
15:00:07 <frosch123> it makes no sense to boost some industries to "gung ho", but leave others at "normal"
15:00:23 <Ketsuban> andythenorth: by the way, thank you for making Iron Horse, Road Hog and SQUID. I like your aesthetic choices and your balance of verisimilitude and gameplay. :) Will you be doing a plane set?
15:00:45 <V453000> yes but what if you had normal 1, normal 1+20%, normal 1 +40%, ... ?, normal 1 +100% = gung ho
15:00:56 <V453000> way less "ok now I have this"
15:01:29 <andythenorth> Ketsuban: nah, pikka has done AV9, planes are solved :)
15:01:34 <andythenorth> I use AV9 in every game
15:02:11 <andythenorth> V453000: for that I would just do a totally alternative mechanic
15:02:15 <andythenorth> like ‘level up’ or so, more linear
15:02:26 <Ketsuban> Heh. Yeah, I use av9 too - it seemed like the most appropriate complement. Just wondered if you had any plans for your own set of planes, to ensure balance against your other sets.
15:02:29 <andythenorth> enhanced / gung ho is so simple, no thinking required
15:02:54 <V453000> well it would probably just be closer and closer to how yeti behaves, so probably just leave it :)
15:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like there are too many conversations here simultaneously
15:03:07 <V453000> I just think that 3 levels feel super basic
15:03:48 <frosch123> V453000: i think levels are more interesting than a continuous curve
15:04:05 <frosch123> if you add more levels, it becomes a curve
15:04:26 <V453000> well sure if you do add too many
15:05:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: you may have to check the grf parameters in your game
15:05:26 <frosch123> i am not sure whether they get the default values, or are set to zero
15:12:04 <andythenorth> nothing is gung-ho any more :D
15:15:20 <andythenorth> that unwanted industry window text is annoying eh?
15:15:25 <andythenorth> ‘cargo waiting to be processed'
15:23:15 <frosch123> i don't think it's a game stopper :p
15:24:52 <andythenorth> been there long enough :P
15:25:00 <andythenorth> I’ve ignored it enough times :P
15:26:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: unsupplied industries are claiming ‘gung ho’? o_O
15:27:40 <frosch123> in existing game? or in new game?
15:28:05 <frosch123> also which parameters? if the requirement drops to zero, then all are gung-ho :p
15:29:30 <andythenorth> maybe I restart openttd
15:29:37 <andythenorth> action 14 can be highly cached
15:31:23 <andythenorth> looks better now
15:32:15 <frosch123> bbl, it's sunny outside
15:39:50 <Milek7> GSStationList::GSStationList
15:39:59 <Milek7> when no company is selected it will return all stations or none?
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15:58:51 <andythenorth> Road Hog probably good enough for 0.1.0
15:58:59 <andythenorth> but shopping and chores
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16:25:17 <Milek7> tiles with town roads have 'local authority' value
16:25:41 <Milek7> and if player place station on this tile, it will still have 'local authority' value
16:26:41 <Milek7> but, if station is placed on road tile created during game (ie. not map generation, but town growth), then 'local authority' value sets to 'none'
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16:45:15 <_johannes> I have a question about implicit trains
16:45:48 <_johannes> right now, if a trains goes from A to B without explicitly mentioning that it shold drive nonstop, then implicit stations can be added
16:46:22 <_johannes> however, now, I have an express train that goes from A to B *nonstop* ... would it be possible to add the stations as waypoints?
16:46:54 <_johannes> would it even make sense, as express trains could take another route from A to B every time?
16:48:43 <_johannes> I ask because right now, the graph exporter has no clue what route express trains take, so it draws strait lines through the map... it looks bad...
16:49:04 <Milek7> maybe you want order "Go non-stop via"?
16:49:53 <_johannes> Milek7: usually not, if an express train leaves 30 stations out I don't want to add them as "nonstop via" by hand
16:51:02 <Milek7> i think it is not possible without patching game
16:51:49 <_johannes> would it make sense to patch it?
16:54:34 <Alberth> I don't think it makes sense, as your graph is for passengers getting on and of the train, which doesn't really work if it drives by at 100km//h
16:55:39 <Alberth> also, trains avoid platforms if they can, so it would fail in the general case
16:56:23 <_johannes> Alberth: Currently, it's looking ugly in my graph because express trains draw lines through the desert...
16:56:50 <_johannes> It makes the who railway net looking more confusing imo
16:57:36 <Alberth> but if it 'visits' stations wouldn't that give incorrect information?
16:58:18 <_johannes> e.g. next to Stuttgart, there are many stations that are being bypassed sometimes
16:58:33 <_johannes> Plochingen, Vaihingen etc.
16:59:12 <Alberth> 600KB for a few lines and circles :p
16:59:44 <Alberth> yeah, I can see the value too
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17:00:09 <Alberth> nah, just stupid software :p
17:00:12 <_johannes> or could I just run the pathfinding algorithm from the game to find out the paths?
17:01:29 <Alberth> tbh go via non-step orders would make the most sense to me, as you explicitly list the stations you drive by
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17:02:40 <_johannes> Alberth: imagine you have 5 stations with 10 trains, each passing them all by
17:02:43 <Alberth> otherwise it's just random, shortest direction doesn't need to be the correct one
17:03:33 <_johannes> Now, if you hard coded all nonstop-vias, and sooner decide to make a hightspeed way bypassing all five, you will have to tell all express trains about this...
17:03:41 <Milek7> TownID ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority(TileIndex tile)
17:03:42 <_johannes> It's a lot of ingame work :-/
17:03:47 <Milek7> Town *town = ::ClosestTownFromTile(tile, _settings_game.economy.dist_local_authority);
17:04:05 <Milek7> why this isn't accounting town growth?
17:04:28 <Milek7> but takes distance from settings?
17:04:44 <Alberth> you know about cloned orders? _johannes
17:05:17 <_johannes> Alberth: yes, but that 10 trains might have different start and finish points
17:05:48 <_johannes> Alberth: I don't like the idea restricting express trains to a path... it's not flexible
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17:06:10 <_johannes> also, imagine if there's a traffic jam on your route, trains will still be force to take the via-stations you inserted...
17:06:19 <Alberth> for people using time tables, it's probably required anyway
17:06:49 <Alberth> so you don't mind if your chart is telling lies?
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17:07:39 <_johannes> it should make sense... if 90% of your trains go A->C->B, would'nt it be strange to draw the line as A->D->B ?
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17:10:01 <Alberth> run a path finder then? you seem to have already decided
17:10:55 <_johannes> Alberth: either that, or asking for a patch that implicit nonstop stations are added into the order list
17:11:25 <Milek7> so, only accurate way to check within which town authority station is, is iterating over each town and checking IsWithinTownInfluence?
17:11:55 <Alberth> I am not even sure that concept exists
17:12:11 <Alberth> it's just track that the path finder is forced to follow
17:13:55 <Alberth> and there is no game play reason for adding these stations if you could
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17:14:15 <Alberth> it just add to the overhead without benefit for normal game play
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17:15:09 <_johannes> Maybe I'm just having fun with the pathfinder now..
17:15:52 <Alberth> it has sufficient layers of templates for fun :p
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17:22:20 <drac_boy> did find a few triplex steam setups from some books so far...still got a lot more to look up tho :p
17:22:52 <drac_boy> still looking for something to do with the SAR condensing gears but thats perhaps another topic tho heh
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17:27:16 <_johannes> if a train is in a station, and both station exits lead to the next order... I think it chooses the exit with the shorter route?
17:28:03 <Rubidium> if you replace "shorter route" with "least perceived costs", then yes
17:28:52 <Rubidium> where there is some cost for turning around, signals, corners, and loads of other things
17:29:12 <_johannes> wow I just saw that it takes the longer route...
17:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> given that trning around is even enabled
17:29:28 <Alberth> positions of other trains count too
17:29:34 <_johannes> hmm let's make the turnaround more attractive :D
17:29:50 <Alberth> sharp corners are bad
17:29:57 * drac_boy pokes frosch wondering why there are steam vehicles in grfs? ;)
17:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> going through signals backwards is a rather big penalty
17:30:33 <drac_boy> alberth the kind that looks like a V turn? :)
17:30:38 <Alberth> drac_boy: I am as astonished as you are
17:30:47 <_johannes> ok the other route must be long enough, then the train turns around
17:39:24 <_johannes> I thought trains turn around in stations via CMD_REVERSE_TRAIN_DIRECTION , but this seems only be used for depots...
17:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's for when you click the reverse button in the train gui
17:40:09 <_johannes> can someone pls check where in the code a train makes the decision in which direction the current station needs to be exited?
17:40:22 <_johannes> oh, then it's not the command?
17:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> commands are only for user interactions
17:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> or, mostly, at least
17:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> things that happen during train movement are rooted in TrainController
17:41:33 <drac_boy> (the buffers makes me wonder if its meant to be able to couple to rail wagons which probably a player may want to try do?)
17:45:19 <drac_boy> and anyway..have to go make some lunch now sorry :p
17:46:53 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: in TrainController, it indeed calls ChooseTrainTrack() for path finding, however, it gives enterdir as a parameter
17:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: leaving station has a special case somewhere that looks both directions
17:47:47 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: is this special check in the pathfinder, or outside?
17:48:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so it'll call the pathfinder twice.
17:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> once with the current direction, and once with the reversed direction
17:49:26 <_johannes> hmm it's only called once inside TrainController... is TrainController called twice then?
17:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd look for OT_LEAVING, or the setting that controls reversing in stations
17:51:00 <_johannes> any idea how this setting could be named in the code?
17:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> grep settings.txt for "reverse"?
17:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be a difficulty setting
17:54:15 <_johannes> difficulty.line_reverse_mode ?
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17:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so, check where that is used
18:01:23 <_johannes> ah, ChooseTrainTrack calls DoTrainPathfind twice
18:01:32 <_johannes> with opposite directions
18:04:06 <_johannes> but the second call to DoTrainPathfind is only done if the waiting position is not safe?
18:04:17 <_johannes> I don't understand it
18:05:40 <_johannes> I have an example map where the waiting position is safe (afaik), and the train yet turns around
18:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably misreading it
18:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that is about reserving a path INTO the station
18:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if the platform does not end with a signal, it needs to continue reserving, even though it already arrived at the destination
18:09:02 <_johannes> ok, no, that's not what we need :)
18:09:17 <Milek7> train_cmd.cpp:static bool CheckReverseTrain(const Train *v)
18:10:55 <_johannes> Milek7: I found that, too, but it does only check if a train *can* be reversed, not if it makes sense to reverse it?
18:11:39 <_johannes> oh! indeed! that calls the pathfinder again..
18:20:09 <Wolf01> "Remove Mods from Saves/ Add Mods to Saves", so, for 'every game with modding' I find this in the forums, I think the problem is really difficult to understand
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18:47:25 <andythenorth> what’s to stop me putting something evil in a newgrf makefile?
18:47:32 <andythenorth> like recursive rm or something
18:47:59 <andythenorth> presumably none of you read the incoming commits when you pull?
18:50:15 <frosch123> we trust in you stepping into your own trap before anyone else would pull
18:56:44 <Milek7> hm, how many ticks game scripts can take?
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19:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: things like that do happen occasionally
19:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> like misplaced spaces turning "rm -rf /path/to/blah" into "rm -rf / path/to/blah"
19:37:18 <Milek7> GSStationList_CargoPlanned
19:37:23 <Milek7> what is planned cargo?
19:38:04 <frosch123> have you played with cargodist?
19:38:26 <frosch123> in the station gui you can select "planned cargo"
19:38:42 <frosch123> which is what cdist expects in the future, as extrapolated from the past
19:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "planned" is some kind of average flow
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21:21:50 <Milek7> i if do in squirrel class stations = []; then it acts like static
21:22:05 <Milek7> but when stations = null; and stations = []; in constructor it works fine
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21:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> wo what are you asking?
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22:12:09 <Milek7> GSStationList_CargoPlannedByVia also includes final destinations?
22:33:33 <frosch123> eints sortable tables?
22:40:40 * andythenorth is too busy making tinfoil hats
22:40:43 <andythenorth> can’t make anything else
22:40:49 <andythenorth> computing is dangerous
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continue to next day ⏵
