IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-02-04
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00:47:27 <supermop> hmm where are the base set pbs sprites
00:57:00 <Supercheese> in the _extra bits perhaps
00:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> pbs sprites will be in an action5
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01:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> is there also a timey wimey irc?
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01:17:55 <supermop> yellow aspect patch guy wants green/double yellow/yellow/red so thats what i am drawing
01:18:54 <supermop> but more natural to me (based on signalling i'm more familiar with) would be a distant aspect with green/yellow, and home with red/green
01:19:58 <supermop> so effectively double green/green and yellow/ double yellow/ red and yellow
01:20:42 <supermop> on the subway here they wouldn't show yellow distant aspect if home was at red though
01:21:52 <supermop> what do you have in germany, Eddi|zuHause ?
01:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> germany is complicated(tm)
01:23:08 <supermop> i feel like separate heads for home and distant is then easier to represent in semaphores as well
01:23:29 <supermop> with a single semaphore, hard to display 4 aspects
01:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> generally germany has two different types of signal, main signal (which show green/green-yellow/red) and advance siganls (which show green-green/green-yellow/yellow-yellow)
01:25:37 <supermop> are they ever on the same post?
01:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> main signal means "go at full speed/go at reduced speed/stop" and advance signal means "next signal will be full speed/reduced speed/stop"
01:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can be combined
01:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also more modern systems where they are always combined (or unused lights left out)
01:26:54 <supermop> ottd post starts to get silly looking with more than 4 lights
01:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the newer ones try to avoid three green lights on the same post
01:29:19 <supermop> i think i will draw double green as my most permissive aspect then
01:30:02 <supermop> as i understand this guy's patch, it is reserving 3 blocks, so distant signal would also be green in most permissive case
01:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in the case of german signals, normal state would be green+green/green, first stage of slowdown would be green+green/yellow, second stage of slowdown would be green/yellow+yellow/yellow and stop would be red+yellow/yellow
01:42:52 <supermop> Are distant signals placed below the home signals usually?
01:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the top arm switches between red (horizontal) and green (angled), the second arm switches between nothing (vertical) and yellow (angled, in combination with the top arm this becomes green/yellow)
01:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the yellow disc switches beteween visible (yellow/yellow) and invisible (green/green), and the yellow arm below it flips between vertical (yellow/yellow or green/green) and angled (green/yellow)
01:52:09 <supermop> should cheat and draw one pixel of light per aspect on the backs on signals that face straight up
01:52:19 <supermop> so you can determine aspect
01:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like "there's light shining through some hole"?
01:53:52 <supermop> hmm my 4-light home over distant concept doesn't work
01:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want less lights, try the Ks system over the H/V system
01:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> H/V is what i explained above
01:54:53 <supermop> i have green/green for clear, then green/yellow for caution, and red for stop
01:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> as i understood from the signal patch, there should be 4 states?
01:55:43 <supermop> top two lights are green and red for home, bottom two are green and yellow for distant, but that only allows 4 aspects
01:56:12 <supermop> i can only get one 'caution' out of these 4 lights
01:57:06 <supermop> i guess that's why he wanted green/yellow/yellow/red
01:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. Ks has fewer lights, but it involves flashing states
02:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the 4 states would be green/flashing green/yellow/red
02:01:44 <supermop> flashing is more or less permissive than solid green?
02:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> flashing means "next signal will have reduced speed"
02:06:34 <supermop> will that be confusing to players unfamiliar with it?
02:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> more confusing than the existing system already is?
02:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be pretty easily picked up
02:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think the palette contains flashing green
02:07:38 <supermop> well currently no signal in game displays anything other than red or green
02:08:53 <supermop> i know that in the uk, in the 80s they experimented with flashing green as more permissive than double green
02:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can use two lights if you want to flip colours of the lights. then you can have something like green/green, green/yellow, yellow/yellow and red/red
02:09:22 <supermop> when trying to run trains at 150 mph on lines signaled for 125
02:09:38 <sim-al2> Flashing is also somewhat common to "upgrade" aspects, like flashing red for restricting (aka drive on sight) and flashing yellow for another approach aspect
02:10:05 <supermop> color changing lights could work
02:10:40 <supermop> cold reduce all other signals to a single lamp so they are not so damn tall
02:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the original (as in TTDPatch) PBS have 3 lights vertically
02:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd changed that at some point to have more visual difference to the pre/exit signals
02:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> all signals only ever had 2 aspects
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02:12:24 <supermop> that seems to have home at bottom, but is more like what patch author describes
02:13:23 <sim-al2> Japanese signaling is a bit weird, many railways no longer allow trains to pass signals at stop without permission, so the home/automatic distinction is slowly disappearing
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02:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: pretty much nobody playing this game will have any knowledge about signals other than "green means go, red means stop"
02:20:46 <supermop> i guess green/yellow and yellow/yellow are equally intuitive as "go slower than green but faster than yellow"
02:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is enough difference betweewn single yellow and double yellow
02:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so green/yellow fits better
02:24:45 <supermop> the color light part seems easiest, but can change the other yellow to another green
02:29:25 <supermop> could even do it with only 3 lamps if you have green/green+yellow/yellow/red
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03:17:55 <supermop> were semaphores added later? they are not on the same ogfx sheet
03:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> TTO had semaphores, i think TTD did not
03:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there are two sets of semaphores, one for drive-on-left and one for drive-on-right
03:20:22 <supermop> well i guess i'm going to have to do both for this guy
03:23:53 <supermop> do those lights look ok for now?
03:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> difficult to tell out of context
03:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need a pcx
03:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> both grfcodec and nml can process png
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05:06:44 <supermop> ok did semaphore versions
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11:02:40 <Kyle> Hey guys need a hand setting up my dedicated server
11:02:41 *** Kyle is now known as Guest2292
11:03:09 <Guest2292> Im using ubuntu, no gui, and ive got the server up and running but its at version 1.3.0
11:03:14 <Guest2292> How do I update it to 1.5.3?
11:09:04 <planetmaker> Guest2292, download openttd 1.5.3 from our website and start the server from that binary?
11:09:18 <planetmaker> if your ubuntu repository does not offer a newer OpenTTD, that's the way to go
11:09:26 <Guest2292> Using w3m? I have no desktop environment etc
11:09:59 <planetmaker> wget the proper archive on the server and unpack it.
11:10:38 <planetmaker> gunzip openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz
11:11:27 <Guest2292> Should I unisiall any openttd files before hand?
11:11:34 <planetmaker> cd openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64
11:11:39 <Guest2292> ubuntu 14.04 LTS is what im running
11:11:54 <planetmaker> peter1139, because I don't know his ubuntu version, thus better going for the generic one
11:12:06 *** peter1139 is now known as peter1138
11:12:34 <planetmaker> use the deb we provide for your version, if you like
11:12:55 <planetmaker> and yes, you can first install the openttd version you have. But if you follow the procedure I lined out, there's no need
11:13:22 <Guest2292> you are some godlike tech support planetmaker
11:14:59 <Guest2292> is the the cfg file still in .openttd
11:15:14 <planetmaker> yes. Nothing in .openttd will be removed
11:15:35 <planetmaker> on ubuntu 14.04 you indeed can de-install your existing and install our deb. But ... doesn't matter either way
11:16:04 <Guest2292> my issue was i ran apt-get install openttd
11:16:09 <Guest2292> which got me the older version
11:16:43 <peter1138> using the generic ones is good for when you want to run nightlies too
11:16:59 <peter1138> not that there's much activity there atm :(
11:17:14 <planetmaker> we don't even have 1.6.0-betas
11:17:22 <planetmaker> which we "should" since christmas
11:18:12 <Guest2292> cheers for the help guys
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12:39:26 <Wolf01> uh, it's late, about lunch time
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13:10:09 <Ketsuban> I compared building a stretch of rail to building a stretch of planning rail from Useless Tracks and then upgrading it, and it came out £15 more expensive.
13:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, clearing the land costs the same, and removing the planning track gives you slightly less money than building it costs
13:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you didn't actually measure different clear land values, like when there's a tree or uneven ground
13:35:31 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:35:37 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause how are you doing on this fine thursday
13:35:40 <argoneus> have you had a cup of teay et
13:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't had a cup of tea in like 10 years
13:36:21 <Wolf01> he's German, they have a cup of cappuccino before lunch, not tea
13:36:45 <argoneus> for one it has taste
13:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't drink coffee
13:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and also, you should never ask a german how he's feeling unless you're prepared to listen to every single of his ailments
13:45:08 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause my body is ready
13:45:12 <argoneus> tell me all about your feelings
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15:37:16 <Ketsuban> Eddi|zuHause: good point, I forgot I'd set trees to invisible. Tried again with no trees, just plain grass - £30 more expensive to upgrade planning rail.
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15:54:56 <supermop__> Ketsuban: with planning track you have to hire a surveyor, to go stake it out, so 30 quid for his time sounds like a good deal
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16:22:47 <V453000> I would question his knowledge and thus the quality of the project though :P
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18:03:27 <supermop__> gah i just scheduled 5 different lines to share a terminus at 50 day spacing, so 10 days apart line to line, but accidentally scheduled 3 of the lines at 40 day spacing instead of 50
18:03:41 <supermop__> going to be a mess to untangle
18:04:13 <Alberth> \o/ untangling messes is fun
18:05:16 <supermop__> most of what i do in a game lately is meticulously scheduling a complex timetable to work several lines together, then spend twice as long fixing it, because i messed up some part
18:06:32 <supermop__> one of the lines shares with a different main trunk with it's own complex schedule
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18:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i barely managed to interleave my two maglev lines
18:18:23 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: it seems the interleaving is the only part of the game i play for anymore
18:23:11 <supermop__> so basically i am only doing the most tedious frustrating work part
18:30:27 <Alberth> somewhere, you have to get something out of it, or you would not do it
18:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: sometimes the brain has strange feedback loops
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18:44:11 <supermop__> too bad i don't get paid for it
19:10:12 <V453000> hm, when I was picking names for NUTS trains it was simple when there is like 120 of them
19:10:18 <V453000> but when I have to pick one, it ain't so easy XD
19:13:01 <_johannes> anyone German here? I'f I'll buy a ticket and don't get a train at a station because the previous train was late, can I continue my travel with a higher class train, like with ICE instead of RE?
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19:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: you have to get some conductor (or the service point) to document the lateness
19:20:33 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: it might be that I won't have time to do that
19:20:51 <_johannes> not even sure if that special station has a service point open at that time...
19:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> is there no conductor in the train you are in?
19:21:15 <Alberth> V: put them all in the high hat, and draw one
19:21:56 <_johannes> ah, maybe ... should be on an ICE...
19:22:05 <V453000> Alberth: that is now how it works :P
19:31:34 <frosch123> _johannes: if you have no confirmation you may have to buy an upgrade ticket from the conductor in the ice, and you can only after your travel request a refund from a service desk
19:33:03 <_johannes> frosch123: if the train starts getting late right before that station (or if it's not sure whether the other train will wait), I won't have time to see the conductor :-/
19:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if your travel already includes an ICE, it is valid for the whole journey
19:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you only need the lateness confirmation to lift the train binding
19:33:36 <_johannes> hmm or I just stay on exactly that train :D
19:34:18 <_johannes> yeah... the conductors on the other trains would not know of the lateness...
19:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the ICE fee is fixed, not depending on the distance travelled
19:34:56 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: what do you mean? travelling from Berlin to Stuttgart is probably more expensive than from Frankfurt?
19:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is a distance price no matter what train you are using, and an ICE price on top of that
19:36:13 <frosch123> _johannes: it costs the same if you take ice from berlin to stuttgart, or if you take a RB from berlin to ulm and the ice only from ulm to stuttgart
19:36:14 <_johannes> ah you mean that additional price is constant?
19:36:40 <_johannes> ah ok! interesting...
19:36:44 <frosch123> it's your responsibility to use as much as ice as possible, once you have purchased ice at all
19:37:26 <_johannes> though for the "Sparpreis", the more-ice routes look more expensive... probably because they are used by more people...
19:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cheap prices usually go very quickly on busy routes
19:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> also useful to know about the "Sparpreis": the train binding only applies to IC and ICE trains, you can take any RE or RB trains along that route
19:43:30 <supermop__> V453000: you should make the names random
19:43:30 <_johannes> does the Sparpreis even get more expensive if I use a more busy RE?
19:43:58 <V453000> isn't naming them by audio records random enough for a train?
19:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that matters
19:45:02 <supermop__> too bad you can't randomize the name like you can with intro date
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19:45:40 <stardude> hey guys i've got a question regarding a station not accepting an item
19:45:44 <V453000> no reason to either tbh :) would only cause confusion for no gain
19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27506 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2016-02-04 19:45:36 +0100 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> french: 13 changes by OliTTD
19:47:14 <supermop__> confusion would be the point
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19:49:18 <stardude> yeah the station just doesn't accept those goods
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19:52:06 <V453000> I am modelling the most badass train ever seen
19:52:20 <V453000> also, dual heading has been trashed
19:54:09 <andythenorth> all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds
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20:10:32 <_johannes> hmm if you use the Sparpreis and have one part bought with an RE, can you use REs on other routes for that part?
20:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, usually "routes" are not point-to-point but "anything within this area"
20:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what specific areas there are, you should ask a more knowledgable person
20:12:51 <frosch123> they are printed on the ticket
20:13:15 <frosch123> usually via lists multiple stations which refer to various possible routes
20:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but "via" is not actual stations to go through, but rather the boundaries of the area
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20:54:37 <andythenorth> so why is 16GB ‘enough’?
20:54:49 <andythenorth> for years, every RAM threshold has quickly been breached
20:55:03 <andythenorth> but 16GB just hasn’t, at all, for several years now
20:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you call "quick"
20:57:00 <andythenorth> first computer I owned in 1999 had 32MB
20:57:32 <andythenorth> that’s 16.5 years ago
20:57:40 <andythenorth> I’ve had 16GB for at least 3 years, possibly 4
20:58:39 <frosch123> increase the number of vms
20:58:53 <andythenorth> so over 75% of my computer owning life, RAM increased by a factor of 256
20:59:02 <andythenorth> and for the other 25%, RAM increased by factor 0
20:59:19 <andythenorth> I only *have* 16GB to run multiple VMs
20:59:24 <andythenorth> otherwise 8GB is enough
20:59:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's the same for cpu speed :p
20:59:50 <andythenorth> so some fundamental of limit of general purpose computing behaviour has been hit
21:00:15 <frosch123> ssd is pretty much the only thing that is still growing exponentially
21:00:38 <andythenorth> battery life seems to grow, maybe linear, not sure
21:01:23 <andythenorth> maybe we hit the point where photo / video / audio filesizes don’t grow through enhanced resolution
21:01:31 <andythenorth> and a person only has so many of them
21:01:46 * andythenorth should play OTTD
21:01:51 <andythenorth> instead of navel gazing
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21:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/1.5)/1024
21:02:00 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 50.796833663
21:02:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: i have half of my ram assigned to a ramdisk, which i use as target for compiling ottd
21:02:23 <frosch123> it speeds up compilation :p
21:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that can't be right
21:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/2)/1024
21:03:02 <andythenorth> yeah, I did my calculation wrong somehow
21:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so 32MB in 1999 is between 8 and 50GB today
21:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on what your moore's law scale factor is
21:03:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: RAM is that much faster than your SSD? o_O
21:03:58 <andythenorth> I should ramdisk Iron Horse :P
21:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: shouldn't cache take care of that?
21:04:53 <frosch123> with disk the best compilation time of ottd was with -j (cores + 1)
21:05:08 <frosch123> with ramdisk it was as fast with -j cores
21:05:30 <frosch123> the object files with debug symbols and stuff are quite huge
21:05:38 <frosch123> way bigger than the source code
21:05:50 <frosch123> also i have only an old ssd
21:05:55 <frosch123> and i use it only for /usr
21:06:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: I forget, did you have feedback on IAHC economy?
21:07:29 <frosch123> i suggested to add bonusses for delivering multiple input cargos for more industry types
21:07:45 <andythenorth> so food processor?
21:07:48 <frosch123> specifically food proeccsing plant
21:07:55 <frosch123> yes, i still only played the food chain
21:08:00 <andythenorth> should I add MNSP there or not?
21:08:27 <frosch123> the thing is: there are two distinations for maize, and 3 for fruit
21:08:41 <frosch123> there should be a benefit in spreading them to multiple industry types
21:08:45 <frosch123> instead of dumping them into one
21:08:54 <andythenorth> I could remove fruit from the port
21:09:01 <andythenorth> there is room here to rethink things
21:09:05 <andythenorth> there are 2 cargo slots unused
21:09:13 <frosch123> currently "alcohol" and "food" are completely equivalent
21:09:14 <andythenorth> also I don’t know if livestock adds much
21:09:30 <frosch123> both are produced from the same, and are delivered to the same
21:09:31 <andythenorth> yeah, alcohol has that problem in all economies
21:09:41 <andythenorth> anywhere people want to eat, they also want to drink
21:09:45 <andythenorth> and vice versa :P
21:09:48 <frosch123> so, there should be a benefit in producing both
21:09:58 <andythenorth> GS tells you to do it? o_O
21:10:02 <andythenorth> oh, the non-GS case :P
21:10:11 <Rubidium> make a Scandinavian economy
21:10:45 <andythenorth> removed Alcohol though
21:10:57 <Rubidium> no alcohol to supermarket but to state owned shop
21:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no alcohol in supermarket? which barbaric country is that?
21:12:20 * andythenorth considers removing livestock and stockyard
21:12:25 <andythenorth> and sending MNSP to food processor
21:12:40 <andythenorth> then adding some other export cargo
21:12:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: variety of cargos is good
21:12:47 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: oh, apparantly I lied... < 3.5% is allowed in the supermarket (in Sweden)
21:12:58 <frosch123> but they should also be used
21:13:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would like more that is ‘not seen lots of places before'
21:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: wtf kind of beer has <3.5%?
21:13:23 * andythenorth still considering Rare Minerals or something
21:13:27 <andythenorth> but quantities are low
21:13:36 <Rubidium> (or 4.75% in Norway or 4.7% in Finland)
21:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that still seems to exclude most useful stuffs
21:14:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: better go for visual diversity :p
21:14:29 <frosch123> piles of dirt do not look any different
21:14:42 <frosch123> organic stuff is a lot more colourful
21:14:54 <andythenorth> so livestock might be worth keeping
21:15:00 <andythenorth> unique wagons, unique station tiles
21:15:18 <andythenorth> dunno, I haven’t used it in my test game, but that’s due to Busy Bee
21:15:19 <frosch123> i would rahter like to see tomatoes and bananas :p than phosphate and manganese
21:15:29 <andythenorth> I could split up fruit
21:15:36 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t mind that
21:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but most fruit would go to the same destination?
21:15:58 <andythenorth> ^ roughly my guide, not sticking to it rigidly
21:16:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s a problem yes
21:16:03 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so do the minerals
21:16:07 <frosch123> all to bulk terminal
21:16:08 <andythenorth> minerals -> port
21:16:14 <andythenorth> I think a banana train would be nice
21:16:19 <andythenorth> I considered rice also
21:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> should put rice in an asian economy
21:16:54 <andythenorth> but rice seems more east asian
21:16:58 <andythenorth> yes, I wanted to save it
21:17:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a youth hostel in addition the the hotel :p
21:17:05 <andythenorth> economies are pointless if they overlap too much
21:17:14 <andythenorth> truck drivers bunkhouse
21:17:18 <frosch123> accepts alcohol, energy drinks and junk food
21:19:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have "salt" in some economy?
21:19:38 <frosch123> there are at least three different ways to harvest salt
21:20:01 <andythenorth> I want to do salt
21:20:08 <andythenorth> maybe australian economy, or so
21:20:25 <andythenorth> I think the most useful cargos are those that have interesting specialised vehicles
21:20:33 <andythenorth> at least for my definition of ‘useful'
21:20:40 <frosch123> hmm, asian: rice, spices, china ware
21:21:00 <andythenorth> A -> B, C -> B, D -> B, all in open wagons, is boring
21:22:02 <frosch123> rare minerals, electronics :p
21:27:46 <andythenorth> I can only think of sugarcane to add variety of wagons / trucks
21:28:27 <andythenorth> but eh I was going to use that elsewhere also
21:29:07 <andythenorth> so I keep livestock, and make food processor combine cargos, happy days
21:29:39 <frosch123> i think it is about big fruits vs small fruits
21:29:49 <frosch123> so hoppers vs "cages"
21:30:17 <andythenorth> how about I split fruit to ‘palm products’ and ‘bananas’ or such?
21:30:58 <frosch123> palm products sounds like edible oil
21:32:05 <andythenorth> I intended it as the input to edible oil
21:49:57 <andythenorth> when did the windows version of OpenTTD get malware added? :o
21:50:16 <andythenorth> Users/andy/Library/Application Support/CrossOver/Bottles/OpenTTD/drive_c/Program Files/OpenTTD/uninstall.exe: Win.Adware.Agent-59032 FOUND
21:50:24 <Markk> It was a patch for 2 weeks ago
21:50:57 <frosch123> the only virus i ever found on one of my computers was inside an uninstall.exe, which i never ran
21:51:57 <Markk> I havn't had a virus, malware or spyware in over 10 years now.
21:52:54 <andythenorth> as far as you know
21:53:04 <andythenorth> you really have no idea :)
21:54:43 <Markk> I hate to use the computer of my matriarch, she clicks on ads, bad links in e-mails and install sheit she really shouldn't.
21:59:56 <glx> Markk: how many add-ons in IE ?
22:00:31 <frosch123> toolbars on more than half of the screen?
22:00:35 <Markk> And some sheit to a startpage
22:00:56 <Markk> frosch123: Ye, something like that
22:01:00 <glx> 5 minutes to launch the browser
22:01:32 <andythenorth> that’s the obvious stuff
22:01:40 <Markk> Took about 30-40 minutes to start the computer, start the browser and access google.com
22:02:05 <Markk> I had a field day with removing most of it.
22:02:50 <glx> some things install others on uninstall
22:03:15 <andythenorth> I love finding something called ‘roottools.conf'
22:03:27 <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
22:03:41 <glx> and the important point is to disconnect internet before trying to clean stuff
22:06:08 <andythenorth> also to never connect the computer to any network
22:06:13 <andythenorth> nor use any removable storage
22:06:37 <andythenorth> you also need to disable the microphone, video camera, and keyboard
22:06:52 <frosch123> only access internet from within a vm, which you reset everyday :p
22:07:08 <andythenorth> you can’t be sure the VM doesn’t have a keystroke logger
22:07:23 <andythenorth> or that your motherboard doesn’t have firmware which sends your secrets somewhere
22:08:02 <andythenorth> every key on your keyboard has a distinct sound, so with a good mic, your banking passwords are easy to learn
22:08:23 <frosch123> all my passwords sound the same
22:08:47 <andythenorth> your clipboard is logged though, eh
22:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an incident a few years ago where a school gave out laptops, and then monitored the students through the builtin webcam
22:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that didn't go over well :p
22:09:14 <frosch123> yeah, i recall that one :p
22:09:27 <Markk> eswst555es55 <- most of my keystrokes
22:09:48 <andythenorth> it’s astounding when people not only install malware, but pay for the privilege
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22:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: what? the most common key is F1, followed by a and r
22:10:47 <andythenorth> for just $200 / year, you can leak all the information from your business / family to criminals
22:11:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: "Was looking for password logger and found it here. Logging passwords and keystrokes in my native language. Works better than other software" <- it has awesome reviews
22:11:08 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I never use F1 in OTTD?
22:11:13 <andythenorth> they are awesome
22:11:23 <andythenorth> I’m not saying that one *is* run by criminals
22:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: you must be playing multiplayer :p
22:11:32 <Markk> 5 is for railroad, s is for signals.
22:11:36 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Nope, SP.
22:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a is for railroad :p
22:12:03 <andythenorth> also the ‘malware removal tools’ that are blatantly malware :P
22:12:09 <andythenorth> for which users pay
22:12:17 <Markk> No, 1-5 is the different types of railroads.
22:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. a is the only type you need
22:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and as a bonus it opens the rail toolbar if it's not already open
22:12:40 <Markk> 1-4 is the fixed-direction and 5 is the flexible one.
22:12:48 <Markk> I always have it opened
22:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not if you build other types of vehicles
22:13:13 <frosch123> ottd still has no hotkeys to pick directions for depots and stuff
22:13:24 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I usually don't.
22:13:31 <andythenorth> should ottd have those hotkeys?
22:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i build trams a lot
22:13:46 <andythenorth> I miss them sometimes, but otoh, I don’t remember shortcuts very well :P
22:13:50 <frosch123> yes, they are the only buttons i regualry need to press by mouse
22:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> also, a is right next to s
22:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is way over there
22:14:14 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: And I always make the railroad toolbar sticky, so it won't close when I hit delete to close the other windows.
22:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i would never reliably hit 5
22:14:24 <andythenorth> I have to navigate station building UI with mouse
22:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: problem is that stickyness goes away if you switch construction types
22:14:57 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: play the game somewhen
22:15:09 <frosch123> that has not been an issue for 2 years
22:15:13 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I mostly use railroads, so that's not an isse.
22:15:35 <frosch123> stickyness can be saved on disk
22:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i still stick with a being better than 5
22:15:46 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I've used 5 for railraods for almost 11 years now, I'm not about to change it now.
22:16:00 * andythenorth wonders how reliable Apple network traffic inspector is
22:16:09 <andythenorth> and how easily malware could hide from it
22:16:18 <andythenorth> should probably ask on some mac channel eh? :P
22:16:20 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Then you should use a, I respect your choise.
22:16:20 <frosch123> anyway, the most imoprtant change i did to the default hotkeys was mapping "d" to depot, instead of useless dynamite
22:16:35 <andythenorth> “fanbois say OS X is immune to viruses”
22:16:50 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: But I like 5 and I'm gonna stick to it.
22:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is the work of the devil!
22:17:25 <andythenorth> how easy is to completely hide a process on *nix systems?
22:17:33 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I'm a Satanist.
22:17:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: i like the weeks when there are three independent headlines about secuirity issues with ios, android and winphone
22:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is the number of corners of a pentagram
22:18:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: easy, give it a cryptic name like "flush-537"
22:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: is there a week without that?
22:18:39 <Markk> I also have a necklace with a downwards-pointing crucifix.
22:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: on windows you hide processes by naming them "svchost"
22:19:02 <andythenorth> it would probably be much easier to just hide the process in some other app
22:19:06 <andythenorth> like something in the ports tree
22:19:14 <andythenorth> ports tree review standards are impeccable, right?
22:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have no clue what ports tree is
22:19:50 <andythenorth> your distro must have some equivalent thing with different name
22:19:59 <andythenorth> you probably run yum update or whatever for it
22:20:18 <andythenorth> ports is the BSD name
22:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really an explanation
22:20:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just run your malware at UEFI level and it'll be equally hidden from Windows, DOS, OS X, Unix, Linux, ...
22:20:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause it’s the package manager, where you literally bring in hundreds or thousands of untrusted packages, probably with sudo
22:21:20 <andythenorth> Rubidium: yeah, but there’ s no mileage losing sleep over that. Not interesting
22:21:34 <andythenorth> it’s like proposing that all the chips made in china leak secrets to chinese government
22:21:42 <andythenorth> or that NSA have trivially cracked SSL
22:21:45 <frosch123> i liked the story about the thing that spread to routers, and cleaned them from other malware
22:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if your malware escalated this far, you have a huge problem...
22:22:13 <frosch123> esp. since my router became quite unstable over the years, but recently became better again :p
22:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's industry standard that malware first fixes the security holes, to prevent other people from getting in as well and disturbing it
22:23:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: andy is brittish, he only communicates with key pairs, which the government handed to him
22:23:34 * andythenorth couldn’t comment
22:23:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think there’s no malware in any packages? o_O
22:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there were plenty of cases of malicious software for phones that distributed through the official app stores
22:25:23 <andythenorth> yes, that’s an obvious attack vector
22:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but the more obscure your distribution gets, the less likely is that anyone actually tries that
22:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> unless they are specifically targeting you.
22:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also where the "there are no viruses for mac" mindset comes from. when macos was actually "obscure"
22:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but it has definitely lost that state
22:30:39 <andythenorth> whenever I read a ‘security alert: how to protect your phone / mac / blah’
22:30:48 <andythenorth> and it recommends downloading a third party tool
22:30:59 <andythenorth> there is a little alarm sound in my head
22:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that alarm is probably correct :p
22:31:38 <andythenorth> I might have to start running everything in a VM
22:31:54 <andythenorth> single-occ per application / service
22:32:01 <andythenorth> that’s going to work brilliantly
22:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> don't phones already do that?
22:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a pretty good approach, actually. just you make it more problematic to share data between processes
22:34:26 <frosch123> what data to share?
22:34:31 <frosch123> all knowledge is on wikipedia
22:36:08 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t be able to play openttd :P
22:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> things like "i wrote this text in $editor, now send it as e-mail"
22:36:31 <andythenorth> nah can’t do that
22:36:39 <andythenorth> isolated VM, no network access
22:36:54 <andythenorth> and you’re not allowed to access to any volumes outside the VM
22:37:26 <andythenorth> but you can’t use any VMs anyway
22:37:34 <andythenorth> because you don’t know if you can trust the hypervisor
22:37:46 <andythenorth> and even if you thought you can trust the hypervisor, you can’t trust the host
22:38:02 <andythenorth> and even if you trust the host, you can’t trust any network at all
22:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: now you're in "you can't trust science anyway, so my religion is as valid as yours" territory
22:38:21 <Wolf01> what if you can't trust the one between the keyboard and the chair?
22:38:28 <andythenorth> you can’t do that either
22:38:36 <andythenorth> you have to remove all admin permissions from them at least
22:39:09 * andythenorth has been reading infosec advice / requirements from governments around the world
22:39:16 <andythenorth> some is very very good
22:39:19 <andythenorth> some is very very odd
22:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the thing is, you need SOMETHING to trust. it will never be 100%, but "close enough". to build your foundation
22:40:37 <andythenorth> you have to build your own computer
22:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you're in with the flat-earthers and creationists and lizard-conspiracies
22:40:48 <frosch123> yeah, something like the axiom of choice
22:40:53 <andythenorth> and examine all the sand for nano-level manipulation
22:41:48 <andythenorth> although the govt advice ‘most cyber attacks on businesses are caused by not setting passwords’ is quite genuinely useful
22:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you have no device for that observation that you can trust
22:42:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and even if you did…evil demon hypothesis
22:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that reminds me of when elementary logic came down to the question "is there an = function?"
22:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> because the basic logic axioms cannot create such a function. only a function that behaves like =, but cannot distinguish certain models
22:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> without such an = function, you cannot detect the presence of such an evil demon
22:54:33 <andythenorth> funny old epistemology
22:54:45 <andythenorth> you just can’t count on anything eh?
22:55:03 <andythenorth> the sun will also rise
22:56:07 <andythenorth> none of this gets pixels drawn :D
22:56:28 <frosch123> add some futuristic invisible engines
22:56:52 <andythenorth> how will I know they’re there?
22:59:24 <frosch123> just reverse the burden of proof
22:59:37 <frosch123> bug reporters have to prove that they are not there
23:01:14 <frosch123> also, ships cannot drive empty, they always have to transport some jetsam
23:01:24 <frosch123> so, invisible ships are basically only cargo graphics
23:02:17 <frosch123> btw. you should also add some cats throughout your graphics
23:02:25 <frosch123> hide a cat in every firs industry
23:03:24 <frosch123> my nephew had a picture book about a car workshop
23:04:00 <frosch123> on every page some worker was just holding a coffee mug and was just watching
23:04:35 <frosch123> though they took turns :)
23:05:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
23:07:23 <andythenorth> the cat thing :)
23:07:26 <andythenorth> like where’s wally
23:07:35 <andythenorth> or the artist who put a mouse in every painting
23:07:48 <andythenorth> or a series of books when I was a child, find the yellow duck on every page
23:08:02 <andythenorth> mostly in german (they were books to learn keywords)
23:08:57 <frosch123> huh? what do brittish children learn from german books?
23:09:46 <andythenorth> german mostly :P
23:10:19 <frosch123> well, when i learned foreign languages i did no longer search for yellow ducks :)
23:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i somehow doubt the effectiveness of that
23:12:03 <andythenorth> my german is not good
23:12:06 <frosch123> my sister-in-law and brother-in-law-in-law-in-law are english and read some english books to my nephews. from that i know that the language is of little importance
23:12:10 <andythenorth> can’t even remember how to say schlect
23:12:14 <frosch123> as long as you read something to them :p
23:12:23 * andythenorth also must go to sleep
23:13:04 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: children books are useful. things like the summoning dark cannot handle them
23:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence does not parse
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