IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-31
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00:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: you can write an addon grf that just changes the power of an existing grf
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00:37:25 <supermop> i still have no idea how to interpret japanese multiple until naming conventions
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00:58:57 <Mazur> You're all going to piss yourself laughing: turns out, my shiny new Antec case only looks like it has a solid front without "door", there is a door, which closes to near seamlessly
00:59:27 <Mazur> Behind the door are hte actual power switch and reset switch as alway.s
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13:01:30 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:07:46 <frosch123> oh, my... i was looking for a forum post i thought i made last year
13:07:56 <frosch123> turned out it was an irc conversation in 2012
13:16:03 <Alberth> how time flies when having fun?
13:24:26 <argoneus> but does time have wings
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13:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe time floats?
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14:38:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: i have been exploring the food chain
14:38:54 <frosch123> i think flour mill and food processing plant would benefit, if they gave a bonus to all input cargos delivered
14:39:06 <Mazur> I'm too integer to join in the cheap puns.
14:39:20 <frosch123> to give a reason to transport fruit to different places
14:40:07 <frosch123> currently there are only role-play reasons to produce alcohol at all
14:40:08 <Mazur> Annie Whey, PC's up, installed and running.
14:40:30 <frosch123> based on the game mechanics alone, you could just as well only produce food
14:40:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: they don’t combine currently?
14:40:53 * andythenorth could change that
14:41:05 <frosch123> the text only says man supplies
14:41:10 <frosch123> i did not check the code :p
14:41:24 <andythenorth> certainly food processor needs something
14:41:30 <andythenorth> it doesn’t even have man. supplies
14:42:02 <andythenorth> I only play with GS, so I am not a good judge of gameplay without a GS :)
14:42:13 <andythenorth> I find FIRS ‘big’ economies totally overwhelming without GS
14:43:13 <frosch123> i am only playing iahc :p i never played full firs beyond a few minutes
14:43:35 <andythenorth> 30 cargos is too much
14:45:08 <frosch123> currently i have the flowchart constantly open on the second screen :p
14:45:42 <andythenorth> much better with Busy Bee :P
14:45:50 <andythenorth> just look at the cargo, find nearest source on the map
14:46:11 <andythenorth> we need more GS choices :)
14:46:24 <frosch123> i just started in the top-left of the flow chart :p
14:48:17 <andythenorth> maybe a GS could do same :P
15:33:16 <Wolf01> I found my new love... Windward
15:34:13 <Wolf01> I was developing a game like that (in 2D) about 10 years ago... never did more than the galeon movement
15:35:12 <argoneus> Wolf01: >no first person view
15:35:33 <argoneus> all those negative reviews
15:35:36 <argoneus> seems like the devs fucked up big time
15:38:50 <debdog> uh, it's like pirates. was looking for such a thing for years
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16:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i got windward for cheap, but i'm not sure it's my type of game
16:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't write anything negative about the game, though... seems fine
16:41:49 <Wolf01> I'm looking on how to mod it to show the resources on the screen instead of the inventory only... not that I don't have enough wood for repairs at any time, but just to be sure to keep everything under control
16:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i was driving around running errands and trading, but i don't quite see what the long term aim is
16:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> pirates kinda get nasty outside your own starting territory
16:44:10 <Wolf01> conquest the whole map
16:44:29 <Wolf01> I just finished to purge pirates from the second area
16:45:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think it's weird that the edibles tank car can transport food, but not alcohol
16:46:23 <frosch123> hmm, oh wait... it can
16:46:45 <frosch123> i assume the edibles tank car only becomes available later
16:46:55 <frosch123> so when i started the alcohol route it wasn't available
16:47:34 <frosch123> universal wagon always looked stupid to me
16:47:58 <V453000> well functionally since you can be sure that you can load any cargo at any point of the game ... :)
16:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the game needs an option to make multiple vehicles available simultaneously
16:48:32 <frosch123> i think we have a spec for that
16:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> we discussed a few ways to do it, but i'm not sure we ever settled on one thing
16:49:59 <frosch123> it's along of: modify the randomisation so that it does not alter the introduction order
16:50:06 <andythenorth> edibles tank car could be made available earlier
16:50:16 <andythenorth> early in game, you just use open cars for all things
16:50:20 <V453000> I am pretty sure I already requested such spec multiple times
16:50:29 <frosch123> basically, sort all wagons by newgrf intro date, then add randomness preserving order, and assigning the same randomness to same intro dates
16:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so you just need a "scramble" function that takes an intro date, and deterministically adds a random value to it
16:51:41 <frosch123> V453000: usually the realism fools ruined all motivation to even start coding
16:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so the same number put into it will always be the same number coming out, but which number is coming out is random
16:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i also was looking for a way to combine multiple vehicles into one prototype offer
16:52:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, a monotone transformation, that deviates from the identify only in some limited interval
16:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it doesn't even need to be monotone
16:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> just same value stays together as a group
16:53:40 <frosch123> if it shall preserve order, it needs to be
16:54:33 <frosch123> but yes, using the same info for preview could work
16:55:27 <frosch123> yes, my stockyard station is called "horse market" \o/
16:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> industry station names need a range of random names, not just one single one
16:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the "witty" FIRS names get boring after the fifth time
16:57:29 <frosch123> huh? did you play with them? :p
16:58:36 <andythenorth> I just accept them as what they are
16:58:45 <andythenorth> a list would be better than a single value mind you
16:58:59 <frosch123> yes, but is a boring thing to add
16:59:50 <andythenorth> my €0.02 on vehicle introduction, I made it a non-problem by designing set differently
17:00:00 <andythenorth> I would rather see tech levels, and an API for GS :P
17:00:34 <andythenorth> something with gameplay value
17:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound like something anybody would implement
17:01:26 <andythenorth> that’s what we said about GS, for years
17:01:39 <andythenorth> meanwhile, new roads sounds just like something someone would implement
17:08:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: oh, and you need to convince danmack to draw graphics for fruit/maize
17:09:12 <frosch123> also, why can hopper cars not transport maize?
17:10:34 <andythenorth> because I am awkward
17:10:47 <andythenorth> it’s not a realism thing
17:13:32 <frosch123> comparing iron horse with nuts is weird :)
17:13:48 <frosch123> iron horse has more interesting wagons, nuts has more interesting cargo graphics
17:23:49 <frosch123> hmm, we need to fix drawing of articulated vehicles at the cursor :p
17:35:53 <andythenorth> V should load my wagons :P
17:35:56 <andythenorth> I didn’t get to that yet
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17:48:35 <V453000> yeah I am hoping to make nicer wagons with my next train set
17:53:25 <V453000> no generations, focus no few but nice things
17:59:31 <frosch123> hmm, "reefer car", yet another american name :p
18:03:47 <Wolf01> going out... third time this week
18:08:23 <frosch123> bah, iron horse fooled me :p
18:08:35 <frosch123> i forgot to enable wagon removal
18:09:35 <andythenorth> all the names are american
18:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if there only were a way to translate a set.
18:10:35 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i selected traditional english
18:11:04 <andythenorth> it’s wide open for someone to ask me to do en-uk and en-us :P
18:11:13 <andythenorth> I don’t like the twee english uk terms :P
18:18:24 <frosch123> do i now electrify my tracks? the first electric engine is so op
18:25:36 <V453000> road crossings for maglev done :>
18:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i generally end up with around 50% electrified
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19:39:20 <andythenorth> frosch123: until 1990s or so, electric is a gameplay-neutral choice imho
19:39:43 <andythenorth> for this roster anyway
19:41:02 <frosch123> the stats in iron horse show the same weirdness as most non-nuts sets
19:41:11 <frosch123> there are fast engines and engines with high te
19:41:19 <frosch123> but for some reason the high te have very little power
19:41:37 <frosch123> which makes the fast engines perform better than the high te in almost all cases
19:44:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: wagon speed limits disabled? o_O
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19:47:05 <frosch123> the very first 4-4-0 and 0-6-0
19:47:14 <frosch123> i don't think there is any usecase for the 0-6-0
19:47:41 <andythenorth> given the wagon speed limits are 65mph at that time
19:48:10 <frosch123> while the 4-4-2 is introduced like 5 years after the 0-10-0 it is way better
19:48:23 <frosch123> ok, i played without wagon speed limits
19:48:31 <andythenorth> the 0-10-0 has only one purpose, going over mountains with freight
19:48:34 <andythenorth> otherwise it’s junk
19:48:44 <andythenorth> it nearly got removed, but eh
19:49:00 <andythenorth> I’ve tried making the perfectly minimal set with no rough edges, and it’s boring
19:49:37 <frosch123> i think, if an engine is slower, it should at least have more power :p
19:50:12 <andythenorth> I could increase it
19:50:32 <andythenorth> it’s already unrealistic for HP, steam engines aren’t really measured in HP
19:51:50 <andythenorth> so the idea is for any given time, 1 freight engine, 1 pax / fast freight engine, 1 local engine, and 1 oddball
19:52:09 <andythenorth> in later game the freight engines have higher TE *and* higher power
19:52:18 <andythenorth> but in early game, the pax engines are higher powered than freight
19:52:23 <andythenorth> this is what you’re noticing as odd?
19:54:03 <frosch123> yes, i am only at 1925
19:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one would imagine that an engine of the same size will have the same power at the same time, no matter which transmission ratio is used
19:58:46 <andythenorth> I am not so worried about that, more interested in there being obvious choices
19:59:01 <andythenorth> but I never considered the case without wagon speed limits :P
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20:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, no wagonspeedlimits will always render half the engines useless
20:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no way around that
20:06:13 <andythenorth> that is a useful point
20:06:34 <andythenorth> ‘freight engine’ only makes sense if you have wagon speed limits
20:07:31 <frosch123> it is the other way around
20:07:42 <frosch123> wagon speed limits enabled makes the engines useless
20:07:58 <frosch123> the point of freight engines is that they acutally reach their speed limit with cargo
20:08:11 <frosch123> if you enable wagon speed limits then also non-freight engines reach that limited speed
20:09:07 <andythenorth> but why would you pick a slower engine?
20:09:13 <frosch123> freight engines should reach a slower speed in less time
20:09:17 <andythenorth> you’d always pick the fastest engine, given unlimited wagons
20:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in CETS the balance point was supposed to be the running cost. the faster engine will cost more by something like maxspeed^2
20:09:39 <andythenorth> well running cost is ~irrelevant
20:09:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, i pick the engine that reaches the fastest actual speed, which is lower than the max speed
20:10:12 <frosch123> in my games trains usually take 20 tiles to reach max speed, or sometimes even only on downhill
20:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, running cost by actual speed might be possible, but rather pointless for the amount of work
20:10:27 <andythenorth> add another engine? o_O
20:10:34 <frosch123> freight engines reach their max speed faster, non-freight engines don't reach their speed limit at all or only downhill
20:11:35 * andythenorth should test some on hills
20:11:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: the point is, when i use the 4-4-2 for freight, it does not reach its max speed, but it is still faster than the freight engines
20:12:04 <andythenorth> what freight weight multiplier is set?
20:12:11 <frosch123> i was said to use 1
20:12:13 * andythenorth just trying to understand all the possible variables
20:12:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: prepared to use the game date cheat to look at the later roster? o_O
20:12:56 <andythenorth> you might have convinced me that the early roster is borked
20:13:50 <frosch123> i don't think that works :p i only notice such things during gameplay
20:13:56 <frosch123> not when fastforwarding :)
20:14:31 <andythenorth> there are two engines around 1935 which _should_ be more obviously balanced pax / freight
20:17:05 <andythenorth> yeah, without wagon speed limits, you’d always choose the first 2 pax engines over first 2 freight, every time
20:17:55 <frosch123> 2-8-2 and 4-8-0 look good
20:18:37 <frosch123> "raven" still appears strong compared to everything else, but maybe that is ok since it requires electrified rails only for itself
20:19:34 <andythenorth> it’s a no-op for gameplay :P
20:19:44 <andythenorth> you get a better engine, but have to electrify everything
20:21:15 <andythenorth> I ran a test, going straight up a mountain, the 0-6-0 is at 16mph with 233t consist, the 4-4-0 is on it’s knees at 1mph with 236t consist
20:21:35 <andythenorth> but for the first 8 tiles of slope they were level
20:22:39 <frosch123> well, i never have more than 2 slopes along one train :p
20:23:27 <frosch123> try testing them on flat land
20:24:00 <frosch123> imho the freight engine should be ahead of the pax engine until it is capped at max speed
20:24:53 <andythenorth> so the point you illustrate is that there’s no reason not to have high HP on the freight engine
20:25:07 <andythenorth> nobody will choose it for pax, so there still remains ‘one obvious choice’
20:25:14 <andythenorth> for any route / consist
20:25:24 <andythenorth> so I should change that
20:26:49 <frosch123> compareing the 0-6-0 with the 4-4-0
20:26:56 <frosch123> the 0-6-0 has a head-start
20:27:10 <frosch123> but is overtaken at 70 km/h
20:27:16 <frosch123> while topspeed is 88
20:28:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, the tradeoff is te vs topspeed, but power should be similar
20:28:58 <andythenorth> no reason not to
20:29:21 <andythenorth> I think original power was set for realism + encouraging double-heading
20:29:29 <andythenorth> I’ll change in a bit
20:31:11 <V453000> wtf anybody caring about train stats and performance? :D
20:32:32 <frosch123> haha, top headline on reddit: heqs for mail?
20:38:15 <frosch123> ah well, i did not miss anything
20:39:04 <frosch123> another thread is about too many pbs signals lagging the game, which makes trains slow down in front of them, because the pbs does not go to green fast enough
20:39:42 <frosch123> but all participants in the discussion are happy :)
20:39:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: the freight engine doesn’t need to be *much* higher power, right?
20:39:50 <frosch123> good 1st level support
20:41:15 <frosch123> it does not need to have more power than the pax
20:41:39 <frosch123> but also not 21% less
20:41:44 <frosch123> i guess 5% less is still fine
20:43:48 <andythenorth> I’m making it a little more
20:43:50 <andythenorth> no reason not to
20:45:21 <V453000> yeah reddit is an intellectual black hole
20:46:07 <frosch123> V453000: better than the forums :p
20:46:37 <V453000> kind of equal, but reddit is at least active so it does not last for as long
20:49:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: with sufficiently long straights, and no wagon speed limit, the pax engine is always better
20:49:48 <andythenorth> unless I substantially increase HP on the freight, which creates progression problems :)
20:50:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: i mean only up to the point where the freight one reaches max speed
20:51:31 <frosch123> beyond that speed limit, yes, the pax one will eventually be faster
20:51:42 <andythenorth> I’ve adjusted it so freight engine reaches end of 20 tile track first
20:51:44 <andythenorth> it’s about 1 tile ahead
20:52:03 <andythenorth> and for these (quite low) weights, the pax engine struggles to reach max speed even on flat
20:59:49 <andythenorth> with heavier trailing loads, the freight engines are definitely better choice for the track in this test
21:25:54 <V453000> I really need to make new signals for brix
21:35:05 <andythenorth> got another tile of ‘wtf’ pipework planned
21:35:29 <andythenorth> V453000: criticism plz ^
21:35:37 <Alberth> maybe a horizontal tank?
21:35:48 <Alberth> all your tanks are vertical or round :p
21:35:57 <andythenorth> big chimney is horrible, needs work
21:36:39 <Alberth> house on top is a bit weird to me too
21:37:14 <andythenorth> not worried about realism though
21:37:47 <V453000> moar totally random pipes
21:37:53 <V453000> I think that is what makes chemical plant
21:38:09 <V453000> other than that is looks nice, but the big chimney on the right seems like in different style
21:38:16 <Alberth> more pipe is always good :)
21:38:46 <V453000> the big chimney looks like it has a very photorealistic texture, but it looks flat - it would need more highlights to make it look more round
21:39:40 <V453000> I would add some small entity like a bit of pipe coming from the ground and back, with some tiny mechanism/box controlling it or what not
21:40:11 <Alberth> the red of the high house makes the wood and pipes below, disappear a bit, imho
21:40:18 <Alberth> maybe just an unfortunate CC
21:40:34 <andythenorth> the blue one is more contrasting :)
21:40:57 <andythenorth> needs a lot more pipe
21:45:56 <andythenorth> ^ also, in the far background, massive 4-pipe pyramid, looks like a rocket engine
21:46:12 <andythenorth> (RHS of the photo)
21:47:11 <V453000> I think the dirt texture at the big chimney is making the inconsistent texture
21:47:22 <andythenorth> it’s a mish-mash of at least 4 other industries
21:47:31 <andythenorth> and probably 4 or 5 different people drawing
21:47:33 <V453000> the random bright pixels are AWESOME, taht is IMO what makes the pixel graphics look so great
21:47:53 <V453000> yeah the 3 towers/chimneys are each totally different
21:48:08 <andythenorth> I drew one, one is mph, one is ogfx
21:48:12 <andythenorth> the tanks are ISR
21:48:51 <andythenorth> big chimney needs redrawn
21:50:12 <V453000> just get rid of some of the brownish colours and make highlights to make it more round
21:50:28 <andythenorth> top vents aren’t spaced right
21:50:53 <V453000> that's fine I would say
21:50:59 <V453000> some detail on their tops would help though
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21:52:23 <andythenorth> I don’t like the CC stripes there either
21:52:35 <andythenorth> should have some massive cc band, or crazy hatching or something
21:53:24 <V453000> idk, they could be improved but they aren't the breaking factor to me
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22:01:16 <andythenorth> on the left, looks squat and impressive
22:04:35 <Supercheese> Industrial buildings are nearly always weird
22:04:52 <andythenorth> I tried to find wtf inspiration
22:05:00 <andythenorth> otherwise all industries are just metal or brick boxes
22:05:00 <Supercheese> the engineers don't have to care about any pesky aesthetics
22:05:20 <Supercheese> pure function (well, optimally)
22:05:50 <Supercheese> I suppose the occasional industrial architect might get a kick out of adding nonfunctional pretty bits
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22:15:35 <V453000> but the tracks themselves are great
22:17:49 <V453000> also, road crossings :P they will get some semaphore though
22:21:18 <andythenorth> V453000: is getting awesome
22:21:24 <andythenorth> colour pallette is great
22:21:46 <Supercheese> Man, I don't even want to think how many man-hours have been spent using the sprite-aligner tool to get all that looking good
22:22:06 * Supercheese hates aligning sprites
22:22:28 <Supercheese> but look good it does
22:24:08 <andythenorth> big chimney shape is wrong
22:24:21 <andythenorth> but industrial look of it is better
22:31:59 <Supercheese> and smoke alignment of course
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