IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-23
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01:10:47 <Birkooo> What is the best way to get all tiles around some industry which are buildable and have cargo acceptance for that industry? I am making my own AI and I am currently thinking about best place for station. thx :)
01:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Birkooo: try to valuate a list of tiles?
01:57:44 <Birkooo> Eddi|zuHause: I am going to try use MakeTileRectAroundTile() from SuperLib, it seems good
01:59:44 <argoneus> probably a bad channel
01:59:49 <argoneus> but where did you guys learn modern C++11/14 from?
01:59:56 <argoneus> I found some books but they are more reference
02:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Birkooo: usually you'd want to draw a rectangle around the industry with the radius of your station type (3 for road stops, 4 for train stations, 5 for docks), and then filter out the ones that don't provide acceptance (that is especially problematic for oil refineries)
02:03:43 <Birkooo> Eddi|zuHause: yes exactly, but how to solve situations near the map edges? If an industry is near the edge, it will have different radius to some direction
02:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, yes. you could either not care (and assume the acceptance filter will probably work), or build a map edge check into your rectangle function
02:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you might have weird effects if there happens to be a similar industry at the other end of the map
02:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're feeling a bit more creative, you could also draw the rectangle anyway, and valuate for "void" tiles, which would indicate you're crossing a map edge, and choose a different method...
02:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's probably more elaborate than checking a coordinate to be less than 0
02:10:17 <Birkooo> Thanks for ideas :) I try to figure out something
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04:32:29 <Birkooo> Has squirell min/max function for integers?
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08:58:04 <andythenorth> V453000: I want to rename ‘FIRS’ economy
08:58:09 <andythenorth> what is the new name?
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09:01:44 <V453000> andythenorth: ALL THE SHIT
09:04:01 <V453000> idk, make a scheme, see how it works, name it after the functionality :P
09:11:11 <V453000> cause it is the first one?
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09:16:12 <andythenorth> maybe it’s just Big Temperate
09:16:23 <andythenorth> cos it was invented before economies, it has no real scheme
09:17:15 <V453000> do the economies have a scheme? :P
09:17:31 <andythenorth> not like you would call a scheme
09:17:35 <andythenorth> they have a theme though
09:18:16 <andythenorth> FIRS economy was ‘what industries does andythenorth want to draw'
09:18:21 <V453000> fuck I should extend YETI, but BRIX and work and stuff ... ._.
09:20:01 <V453000> esp since making nice maglev tracks is fucking hell
09:22:11 <Alberth> just use plain normal tracks :p
09:23:17 <V453000> At the current state I still believe I will be able to figure it out
09:25:13 <andythenorth> just say ‘maglev is not supported'
09:25:20 <andythenorth> and call that version 1.0
09:25:33 <V453000> not the best for a base set attemptor XD
09:26:16 <V453000> but yeah, it is just visual bullshit and tricks with eye illusions
09:26:36 <V453000> if you add to it that you want it to look like something YOU imagined, bullshit is real
09:29:52 <andythenorth> should I just remove it? :P
09:29:53 <andythenorth> file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/economies.html#firs
09:29:59 <andythenorth> does it suit any particular climate?
09:30:06 <andythenorth> that link not so working
09:31:37 <Alberth> it's a nice BB economy?
09:32:14 <Alberth> too bad you cannot detect presence of a GS :p
09:32:18 <andythenorth> it’s fun to play, but I have the regret that all people who make things have
09:32:22 <andythenorth> ‘what was I thinking?’
09:33:06 <Alberth> that's normal, your ideas change as time progresses
09:33:31 <Alberth> but you should just make a new better thing rather than trying to fix the past???
09:33:59 <andythenorth> I want to make temperate and arctic economies equal to the tropic one
09:34:03 <andythenorth> big but not too big
09:34:23 <andythenorth> I can’t figure out if FIRS economy = temperate
09:34:44 <Alberth> huh? it's your own parameter
09:35:03 <andythenorth> I mean conceptually :)
09:35:15 <andythenorth> should I make a temperate economy by cutting down FIRS?
09:35:25 <andythenorth> or leave FIRS alone?
09:36:06 <Alberth> some people like being busy, or are just idiots "bigger is better"
09:36:17 <Alberth> hmm "bigger is better" as name ? :p
09:36:36 <Alberth> start from the theme imho
09:37:39 <Alberth> with sprinkles of coal?
09:37:54 <Alberth> that's mostly UK, isn't it?
09:38:16 <Alberth> or most other temperate areas, perhaps
09:38:44 <Alberth> sort of "traditional"
09:39:20 <Alberth> less traditional, throw heavy industry out
09:39:54 <Alberth> heavy industry more arctic-ish??
09:43:43 <andythenorth> FIRS = Keeping Busy? :P
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10:04:42 <Alberth> yep, but in a positive wording for 'mess' :)
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11:01:04 <Alberth> people will want to see results, eg screenshot of minimap + image of generated dot thingie
11:01:37 <Alberth> some fewer people will want a patch :)
11:02:02 <tt_johannes> Ok, I might upload results when it's implemented
11:02:29 <Alberth> perhaps start with a handwritten dot?
11:02:34 <tt_johannes> What do you mean by patch? Error fix between openttd versions?
11:03:00 <Alberth> make a small map, add a simple line, write dot file manually
11:03:11 <Alberth> run the dot thingie, see how it looks
11:03:33 <Alberth> you can even post it as "this is what you'd get"
11:03:42 <Alberth> most people don't know dot at all
11:04:44 <Alberth> "patch" is a source patch, ie a diff file between some nightly version rXXXXX and the same program, but with your changes
11:05:22 <tt_johannes> Hmm my idea was to simply include the stuff in the next version
11:05:35 <tt_johannes> (when it's stable enough)
11:05:45 <Alberth> even then we'd need a patch to review
11:06:32 <Alberth> I have no need for your output, but my fear is that you won't get such nice straight lines
11:06:49 <Alberth> and the station names will end up everywhere
11:07:03 <Alberth> hi hi Wolf01, and it's not even afternoon yet
11:07:25 <Alberth> the question is thus, is that acceptable
11:08:24 <tt_johannes> ok, that can be tested...
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11:30:03 <tt_johannes> I'm still working on making parallel lines non-bended
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11:32:49 <Alberth> that looks like typical dot output :)
11:33:57 <tt_johannes> the station names are also sometimes covered by edges, but this can be improved
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11:36:38 <Alberth> given that you already have proper positions, it may be easier to just draw lines in 8 directions
11:37:08 <Alberth> ie dot selling point is layout of the graph, but you've already done that
11:38:02 <Alberth> or just straight lines, even
11:39:41 <tt_johannes> what do you mean by "selling" in "dot selling point is layout"
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11:42:37 <Alberth> standard use of dot is "get a bunch of nodes without position" -> "bunch of nodes with position and reduced crossing lines"
11:43:01 <Wolf01> meh 3 calls to the support service to re-enable the data connection on my sim, and I can only use the 3G (still better than my wired ADSL)
11:43:36 <Alberth> but your nodes already have a position, not sure about your lines, but crossing probably doesn't happen a lot
11:44:09 <Alberth> flying through the air is quicker than on the ground :p
11:44:10 <tt_johannes> @Alberth: I think it can happen, but it's probably unavoidable
11:49:12 <tt_johannes> Alberth: is it ok to upload this PDF in the forum? Some admins don't want large files appended in forums...
11:50:06 <Alberth> no idea, but people dump loads of MB save games there
11:50:38 <Alberth> it's just a few lines
11:51:49 <tt_johannes> yes, but some ppl might not have the dot tool to view it
11:53:02 <Alberth> most people don't have that
11:53:42 <Alberth> but I meant the resulting pdf, as that's what dot produces, right?
11:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there was a 6MB limit to the forum
11:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> if your file is larger, you need to split it
11:54:58 <Alberth> I have seen bigger files iirc
11:55:58 <Alberth> BRIX throws 10MB file onto the forum
11:56:24 <Alberth> tt_johannes: :O yeah, too big! :p
11:56:53 <tt_johannes> is it possible to append in midst of the post, instead of appending at the bottom as "attachment"?
11:57:26 <Alberth> click "add inline" or so just below the typing area
11:57:36 <Alberth> it inserts at the cursor position then
11:58:09 <Wolf01> just donated 5€ to tt-forums, do you need some for ottd too?
11:58:17 <Alberth> not sure pdf files get expanded, probably not
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12:01:24 <Alberth> donations are welcome, although we will survive for a while
12:02:16 <Wolf01> ok, then ask me when you need it :P
12:05:55 <Alberth> like I will remember that :p
12:06:39 <Wolf01> just leave a news in the blog like "we need money for trains"
12:11:10 <Wolf01> I think we should donate to purchase a real train and fit it with some gaming positions, transport related decorations, and cakes, and travel around Europe
12:11:11 <tt_johannes> ok, I clicked on "Add file" while editing in the forum post (in German: "Datei hinzufuegen"), but there was no option to add it "inline"
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12:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: it will appear after you've uploaded, and before you finish the post
12:16:58 <tt_johannes> ah that was hidden
12:23:54 <Wolf01> nice, V453000, did you manage to hire some asian people to reduce the size of the circuits or it was just your ability? :D
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12:39:38 <Wolf01> andythenorth, eat something, you are not yourself when you are hungry
12:40:32 <andythenorth> eating cheese on toast
12:43:24 <andythenorth> eh, in a GPL project, what licenses are viable for sounds?
12:44:01 <V453000> you mean the combinators?
12:44:12 <V453000> just shat pants with blender for a few days
12:44:38 <V453000> then thought it is all done to discover that there are 9 fucking offset positions in the sprite which need to be defined individually
12:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "The study, published in the Journal of Hospital Infection, examined the faces of 408 healthcare professional with and without facial hair, to reveal that not having a beard actually increased your chances threefold of having Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) on their cheeks than men with beards."
12:45:04 <V453000> (2 wire connections for input, 2 for output, each of them has shadow placement, and the fucking blue LED activity indicator XD)
12:46:18 <V453000> I believe it was like 112 offsets or something
12:46:21 <Wolf01> eddi, that's why I'm growing a beard
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12:48:10 <Wolf01> V, nice, it must have been a lot of work, I'm already pissed off with one offset :P
12:49:06 <V453000> it was. :) But I managed to automate a lot of it to easily bug-fix
12:50:02 <Wolf01> I think that was the reason why they invented the computers ;)
12:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the computer is a solution to a problem that would never have existed without computers
12:51:06 * andythenorth has to read sound effects licenses :(
12:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think there's no real problem as long as the license allows redistribution and altering
12:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe put a special note under the usual license about special terms for sound effects
12:52:41 <andythenorth> yeah, the redistribution is the killer
12:52:51 <andythenorth> so many royalty free licenses are borked
12:53:14 <andythenorth> they usually have a clause ’like you may use this for any purpose, but you may not upload it to any electronic system'
12:53:15 <Wolf01> I only pick from public domain or CC-0 assets, or I do it by myself (usually squares or other basic forms, or some notes on a sequencer)
12:55:08 <andythenorth> maybe I should record some
12:55:13 <andythenorth> I don’t have a decent mic though
13:03:56 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:10:05 <frosch123> tt_johannes: unless you already started on openttd-graph-conv, i would recomment python instead of c++ with boost
13:11:16 <Rubidium> talking about train friends... any Indian train friends here that can help me creating an IRCTC account?
13:15:15 <argoneus> seems like one of those legit websites 10 years ago
13:15:30 <argoneus> flashing download ios app button
13:15:35 <argoneus> moving text everywhere
13:16:35 <andythenorth> fishing grounds are boring
13:17:25 <Rubidium> that's not the worst, the worst is needing an Indian mobile phone number for a one-time-token (you also get one via email and to activate the account you need to enter both)
13:17:57 <argoneus> why would you go to india though
13:18:38 <Rubidium> to visit a friend doing a PhD there
13:18:52 <argoneus> your friend has a phone surely, no?
13:19:09 <Rubidium> yeah, but a Swiss one...
13:19:39 <Rubidium> and it's quite a backwater there, so there's sporadic communication possible
13:21:54 <Rubidium> waiting for 14 days on a reply (after having received two automated replies that they have received my request)
13:23:44 <andythenorth> you will likely continue to wait
13:24:17 <andythenorth> you are now becoming just another of the more than 1 billion people whose lives run to Standard Indian Time
13:24:51 <andythenorth> India requires a different mindset
13:24:59 <andythenorth> imagine Italy, raised to the power of 2
13:25:37 <argoneus> and before you know it you'll be making websites for $1/hour
13:25:41 <andythenorth> trivia: FIRS was invented in India
13:26:11 <Alberth> and no industries from india?
13:29:44 <V453000> did that country invent anything apart from indian elephants?
13:30:42 <V453000> yeah 18923427 years ago
13:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the number 0, in particular
13:31:18 <argoneus> they are still inventing new ways to enslave people
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13:31:42 <V453000> number 0 as in they ain't got shit? :D
13:31:50 <V453000> but yeah, interesting :)
13:31:59 <andythenorth> the thing on the internet
13:32:05 <andythenorth> is you never know who’s wife is Indian
13:32:34 <frosch123> my indian coworkes is unmarried
13:32:42 <argoneus> andythenorth is your wife indian
13:33:27 <frosch123> argoneus: are you implying that FIRS was invented during a dinner at mother-in-law's place
13:34:12 <argoneus> "this dinner sure could use some paper production"
13:35:48 <tt_johannes> frosch123: For what reason would you suggest python?
13:36:18 <frosch123> for using pydot, though it only works with python2
13:36:38 <tt_johannes> why would you suggest using pydot? :p
13:36:43 <frosch123> allows you to read and write dot files, and directly invoke the dot library
13:37:07 <tt_johannes> boost::graph can do this to, afaik
13:37:38 <frosch123> well, use the one you are more comfortable with then :)
13:38:25 <tt_johannes> I just thought you were worrying about portability (Windows)
13:38:47 <frosch123> i don't care about windows :p
13:48:23 <tt_johannes> does someone know what the order types OT_LOADING and OT_CONDITIONAL could mean?
13:48:31 <tt_johannes> they are types describing orders in order lists
13:48:59 <frosch123> OT_LOADING does not appear in order lists
13:49:25 <frosch123> it's merely the status of trains while loading, and not following a specfici order
13:50:18 <tt_johannes> lol another feature I never heard of...
13:52:29 <andythenorth> cos nobody uses it :P
13:52:43 <andythenorth> conditional orders are only for the sick
13:52:56 <V453000> no they are perfectly fine :)
13:52:57 <frosch123> ottd is only for the sick
13:53:07 <andythenorth> what use its it sending a train around in circles to partially load it?
13:53:12 <andythenorth> makes no sense :P
13:53:14 <tt_johannes> can OT_LEAVESTATION appear in an orderlist?
13:53:27 <V453000> andythenorth: stuff like refit :P
13:53:54 <V453000> trains can load, say, 50% so you can let them put the cargo back in the station and do other task instead
13:54:13 <V453000> also, openttd is for the sick, but is polluted by train porn nerds :P
13:55:40 <andythenorth> trains only ever need 2 orders
13:55:44 <andythenorth> pickup, drop off
13:55:48 <andythenorth> and one track per train
13:56:33 <frosch123> no "one ship per sea"
13:57:11 <andythenorth> FIRS Beyond the Thunderdome?
14:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks at you with a red eye
14:02:48 <argoneus> is there any openttd fanfic
14:03:01 <andythenorth> right, I’m bored
14:03:17 <andythenorth> suggest cargos that suit sub-tropic, preferably ones found in West Africa irl
14:03:19 <argoneus> andythenorth come play a game with me
14:03:21 <frosch123> argoneus: there is the screenshot trhead
14:03:28 <argoneus> andythenorth: ivory is the obvious answer
14:03:34 <andythenorth> ^^ cos some of those overlap too much with FIRS
14:03:35 <frosch123> but i would not recomment looking at it
14:03:47 <andythenorth> sometimes screenies are nice
14:03:51 <andythenorth> at least several times a year
14:04:04 <andythenorth> ivory more east african
14:04:06 <argoneus> im too busy reading up about lvalues and rvalues
14:04:14 <argoneus> ivory coast is in the west
14:04:27 <andythenorth> so much bloody fish
14:05:15 <andythenorth> mail, pax, coal, oil, fish, food, alcohol, building materials seem inevitable
14:05:33 <frosch123> you are living on an island
14:05:44 <frosch123> i am perfectly fine without any fish
14:05:50 <argoneus> west africa is boring
14:05:55 <argoneus> go full cuban drug dealers
14:06:24 <andythenorth> yep, I am definitely going to let my kids play that economy
14:06:55 <andythenorth> fuel as a cargo?
14:07:01 <andythenorth> so that coal and petrol can be dropped?
14:07:45 <Alberth> not coal would be nice for a change :)
14:07:49 <frosch123> colonization had cotton->cloth, suggar->rum, tobacco -> zigars, fur -> coat, iron ore -> tools
14:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think that would work
14:08:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: because...?
14:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people think "fuel" and "petrol" are the same thing, they wouldn't consider coal
14:08:47 <andythenorth> the accepting industries for coal are cement kiln and power station
14:08:59 <andythenorth> they can burn anything combustible with enough energy content
14:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can remove coal
14:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't merge it into fuel
14:09:18 <andythenorth> I can just import fuel
14:09:26 <andythenorth> and not worry what it is
14:09:29 <andythenorth> leave it to player?
14:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no. fuel is always liquid
14:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> don't overcomplicate things
14:10:21 <andythenorth> in UK fuel definitely includes coal, coke, logs
14:10:40 <andythenorth> translation challenges
14:11:22 <frosch123> in F i usually run the diesel trains with wood
14:11:39 <andythenorth> seems I only have coal because I wanted cement kiln
14:11:45 <andythenorth> and I only have petrol to make ENSP from
14:15:29 <argoneus> any c++ magicians have a clue what int& foo(); does?
14:15:34 <argoneus> when used inside main or another function, that is
14:15:45 <argoneus> the () is confusing me
14:15:56 <frosch123> it's an external function declaration
14:16:01 <frosch123> don't do that inside functions
14:16:23 <frosch123> it's probably an example for how ambiguous c syntax is
14:16:34 <argoneus> at the bottom of the page, the lvalues section
14:16:40 <argoneus> i dont get what this does
14:17:00 <argoneus> never seen that kind of syntax before
14:17:45 <frosch123> it is a function declaration
14:18:01 <argoneus> you can declare functions in functions?
14:18:08 <argoneus> then again it doesn't specify scope
14:19:16 <argoneus> okay this will take a while to wrap my head around
14:19:21 <tt_johannes> wouldn't it be good if you want to say: only that one function should see the declaration?
14:19:43 <frosch123> argoneus: it's a prime example why c/c++ have a terrible syntax :)
14:22:52 <frosch123> tt_johannes: i only mean the syntax, it gets worse if "foo" is a class
14:23:26 <andythenorth> 22 overlapping cargos between FIRS and IAHC
14:23:31 <andythenorth> only 9 unique per economy
14:23:46 <andythenorth> I could have counted that on my fingers
14:23:50 <andythenorth> but I wrote a python script :P
14:23:59 <frosch123> then "T foo();" is a function prototype, but "T foo;" and "T foo(123)" are constructor calls
14:24:48 <andythenorth> 22 Overlapping Alcohol, Building Materials, Chemicals, Clay, Coal, Engineering Supplies, Farm Supplies, Fish, Food, Fruit, Goods, Iron Ore, Livestock, Mail, Manufacturing Supplies, Oil, Passengers, Petrol, Sand, Stone, Timber, Wood
14:24:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: it depends on whether you trust more in your programming or your counting abilities
14:25:14 <andythenorth> 9 Unique to IAHC Coffee, Copper, Copper Ore, Diamonds, Edible Oil, Maize, Phosphate, Rubber, Vehicles
14:25:31 * andythenorth ponders importing cement cargo
14:25:36 <andythenorth> and having a concrete plant
14:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that make sense?
14:27:11 <tt_johannes> planetmaker: '"T foo();" is a function prototype' -> sure?
14:27:33 <tt_johannes> I thought a function can not have 2 type specifiers, except for compound specifiers like "unsigned int"
14:28:28 <andythenorth> cement comes from kilns in clinker form, or ground and bagged
14:29:02 <andythenorth> it’s batched in concrete plants, for casting into blocks and beams, or transported via truck to building sites for pouring
14:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i mean, you seem to be adding things for the sake of adding things, not because they have a reason to be there.
14:29:24 <andythenorth> there are reasons for any of the cargos? o_O
14:29:33 <andythenorth> it’s all arbitrary
14:29:40 <andythenorth> tell me some reasons, it might help :P
14:30:14 <argoneus> tt_johannes: there's only one type specifier
14:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "throw stuff together, then stirr it" is almost never resulting in a good design.
14:31:03 <tt_johannes> planetmaker: T + foo -> 2
14:31:18 <andythenorth> eh? design is the progressive removal of all the excess things that don’t fit
14:31:27 <andythenorth> if you don’t have an excess, you can’t design
14:32:04 <tt_johannes> no, foo is class :P
14:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: if "foo" is a class, then "foo" is also the constructor of that class. which one is meant depends on context
14:32:48 <argoneus> no idea what T foo() does if foo is a class
14:33:13 <argoneus> i dont wanna go to jail over c++
14:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know C++ well enough to decide this
14:33:54 <andythenorth> oil wells produce gas also, fuel the cement plant on gas?
14:33:58 <andythenorth> or directly on oil?
14:34:07 <tt_johannes> lol planetmaker I think you're right
14:34:07 <Flygon> Fuel it on Sugar for all I care :D
14:34:20 <tt_johannes> warning: empty parentheses interpreted as a function declaration [-Wvexing-parse] T foo();
14:34:55 <argoneus> std::move doesn't even move anything
14:35:00 <argoneus> all it does is cast an argument to a rvalue
14:35:04 <argoneus> fucking C++ holy shit
14:35:14 <tt_johannes> if foo is a class, then this simply makes foo invisible and declares a new function "foo"
14:37:43 <frosch123> tt_johannes: my name is not planetmaker
14:39:08 <frosch123> and yes, if you have a class "foo", then "foo()" is fine in an intializer list, but fails for variable declarion
14:39:28 <andythenorth> petrol is a stupid cargo
14:39:33 * andythenorth wonders why it was changed from fuel oil
14:39:37 <andythenorth> lost in the mists of time
14:39:57 <frosch123> "foo my_var();" will report a linker error, that "my_var" is not declared
14:39:57 <sim-al2> Fuel oil tends to refer to different distilates though
14:40:57 <andythenorth> but conceptually, it’s all just stuff you explode in internal combustion engines, or burn in furnaces
14:41:55 <sim-al2> At OpenTTD level I suppose, but the heavy oils used in early oil fired ships later became feedstock for the plastics industry
14:43:08 <andythenorth> maybe we decided ‘Fuel Oil’ was just ugly
14:43:16 <andythenorth> and it was delivered to petrol stations, so looked weird
14:43:26 <sim-al2> I wonder how well it actually translates too
14:45:29 <tt_johannes> What cargo type has a vehicle if it can be refitted? Weren't these types different from the default cargo types?
14:45:51 <sim-al2> English seems to have so many different words for the various oil fractions, I wonder how many other languages do that too...
14:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you can define a specific type, or "use the first available"
14:46:42 <andythenorth> can ‘petrol’ be improved? :P
14:47:00 <andythenorth> it looks stupid delivered to a power station, for example
14:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think "fuel oil" is a perfectly valid name.
14:47:16 * andythenorth wonders why it was changed
14:47:38 <andythenorth> maybe repo knows :P
14:47:47 <sim-al2> We Americans call it gasoline :D. Otherwise yeah, fuel oil might be better if it can be delivered to many different places
14:48:09 <tt_johannes> you can not refit passenger cargo?
14:48:20 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen foobar.
14:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: you can refit all cargos
14:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: it's entirely up to the vehicle NewGRF
14:49:30 <andythenorth> I actually just want FUEL
14:49:37 <andythenorth> which is deprecated in cargo labels wiki
14:49:58 <andythenorth> which I can’t edit
14:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it probably overlaps with other "refined oil" types
14:50:23 <sim-al2> That could work, it just seems a bit ambigious
14:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so just use those. what you call it in your strings is up to you.
14:51:05 <andythenorth> well RFPR is Chemicals in FIRS
14:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you have crazy legacy issues
14:53:05 <andythenorth> remember that we were trying to be compatible with TTDP?
14:53:05 <Eddi|zuHause> coating your legacy issues with another layer of future legacy issues is probably not a good solution
14:53:24 <andythenorth> for some time there was a schema where we tried to maintain some parity with ECS
14:53:36 <andythenorth> 2008 was a long time ago :P
14:55:43 <sim-al2> Overly so, it seems, bunker fuel (ship fuel these days) has several grades, but some are obselote now with emissions standards
14:56:00 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: so I can not refit the default passenger vehicle, but might refit a NEWGRF passenger vehicle into a coal vehicle?
14:56:00 <andythenorth> I just want something that comes in a tank and can be burnt :P
14:56:32 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: most sets offer refit to "tourists" if that cargo is available
14:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: refitting between passengers and mail may be available for some vehicle heads
14:56:56 <Alberth> fuel oil is just that, andy?
14:57:29 <Alberth> let translators worry about proper names for cargoes :p
14:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: but yes, a newgrf could allow refitting from passengers to coal
14:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: for example ships that just say "refittable to all cargos"
14:58:50 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: but why has the Vehicle class a cargo type then if the cargo type might change?
14:59:36 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: every vehicle has a cargo type it can currently carry.
15:00:37 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ok, but OrderList has a vehicle chain, so this looks like each vehicle has a fixed cargo type
15:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: i have no clue what you're trying to achieve
15:01:42 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: hang on, I need to think more about it...
15:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: every vehicle can load exactly one cargo type at any one specific moment. this cargo type can be changed by refitting
15:03:04 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: Looking at an OrderList, how do you know what vehicles will be used between stations A and B?
15:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: in the worst case, you can't...
15:03:41 <andythenorth> yeah ok, Fuel wouldn’t work
15:03:57 <andythenorth> can’t give it in both litres / tonnes
15:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wood is generally sold in m^3
15:04:51 * andythenorth wonders about coal
15:04:57 <andythenorth> tonnes, or by volume?
15:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and two different types of m^3, depending on whether it's a pile or a stack
15:05:15 <andythenorth> might be valid cargos
15:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that still doesn't make a lot of sense
15:06:16 * andythenorth wonders what the problem is
15:06:56 <andythenorth> 1. I don’t want petrol to be very important cargo in this economy, but petrol / diesel is needed somewhat
15:07:02 <andythenorth> 2. I need a source of fuel for a cement kiln
15:07:24 <andythenorth> 3. I want to reduce overlap between FIRS and this IAHC economy
15:11:15 <andythenorth> petrol it is then
15:11:24 <andythenorth> do the simplest thing, no legacy costs right now
15:12:02 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: If one could not know the vehicles, then how should the game know it?
15:12:10 <frosch123> tt_johannes: when using refit orders AND conditional orders, the vehicle behaviour is not predictable
15:12:49 <tt_johannes> frosch123: but it's still predictable on exit of every non-conditional station?
15:13:11 <frosch123> actually, that AND is not true
15:13:14 <andythenorth> translators will hate me :P
15:13:15 <frosch123> you can find cases for each
15:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it could be autoreplaced halfway through, or manually skipped, or whatever
15:13:21 <andythenorth> I renamed Petrol to Petroleum Fuels
15:13:30 <andythenorth> which in EN_UK makes good sense
15:13:37 <andythenorth> but probably nowhere else
15:13:40 <frosch123> tt_johannes: a refit order can refit to the most waiting cargotype at a station
15:13:48 <frosch123> you only know that when arriving that the station
15:13:51 <frosch123> you cannot tell in advance
15:14:13 <frosch123> a conditional order can skip a station for whatever reasons, you cannnot tell in advance
15:14:17 <Alberth> Petrol sounds more American to me
15:14:27 <andythenorth> nah, Gasoline in US :)
15:14:34 <andythenorth> petrol means almost nothing there
15:15:13 <frosch123> tt_johannes: focus on the usual cases :) not on extreme cases :)
15:15:18 <tt_johannes> frosch123: ok, let's assume a game has no refitting at all, but still conditionals, are the vehicles known on exit of any non-conditional-station?
15:15:24 <Alberth> so you need a "base language with translator hints" language, to be translated to en_uk? :)
15:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> here, "petroleum" means the ancient way people lighted lamps and stuff. it is not used in modern language
15:15:54 <frosch123> tt_johannes: play a game?
15:16:01 <tt_johannes> frosch123: with focus you mean: ignore refitting?
15:16:30 <tt_johannes> frosch123: you mean so you can show me an example?
15:16:33 <frosch123> tt_johannes: you seem to want to draw edges in the graph per cargo
15:16:44 <frosch123> but what does that even mean for trains which transport different cargos?
15:16:58 <frosch123> or which switch cargos per season
15:17:20 <tt_johannes> it does mean that a train line should be split at such stations, imo
15:17:27 <frosch123> tt_johannes: no, if you want to support conditional orders, you should try them out
15:17:39 <andythenorth> ha ha it’s so clunky in game ‘petroleum fuels’
15:17:42 <frosch123> if you don't use them in your games, don't bother supporting them
15:19:03 <andythenorth> so what are the German translations of Petrol / Petroleum Fuel?
15:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm not sure. potentially "Dieselöl"
15:21:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: "Petrolium" is used in fancy oil lamps, "Benzin"/"Diesel" are used in cars, "Clerosin" is used in planes
15:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: petrol/gasoline would be "Benzin"
15:21:36 <frosch123> "Zweitaktergemisch" is used in mopeds
15:21:55 <frosch123> "Heizol" is used for heating
15:22:08 <frosch123> "Schiffsdiesel" is used in ships
15:22:28 <andythenorth> well, I’ll leave translators with that problem :P
15:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there's generally more variation in what it's used for than what's in it
15:22:37 <frosch123> "Super Benzin" is used in more modern cars
15:23:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: i have no idea what "petrol" means in english :p
15:23:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: leaded or unleaded 2* or 4* motor spirit
15:23:42 * andythenorth has no idea what the chemistry is :P
15:24:04 <andythenorth> presumably equivalent of benzin in DE
15:24:10 <frosch123> then it is "verbleites" or "unverbleites" "benzin"
15:24:28 <andythenorth> diesel is definitely not petrol, as some vehicle owners find out at cost
15:24:32 <frosch123> classified by amount of lead, octane and other stuff
15:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> they haven't sold leaded fuel in like 20 years
15:24:48 <andythenorth> but I am old enough to remember it
15:25:11 <andythenorth> meanwhile, the sea needs more industries building on it
15:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and they stopped selling "Benzin" a few years ago, it's all "Super" nowadays
15:25:29 <andythenorth> actually, I have more than enough ships in my game already, due to high water
15:25:41 <andythenorth> what purpose are water industries, other than diversity
15:25:59 * andythenorth looking for reasons to remove fishing chain in IAHC economy
15:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> we have enough water industries...
15:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have shore industries
15:26:48 <andythenorth> I am wondering about something like salt pan, or sand mining
15:26:51 <Eddi|zuHause> fishing ports that provide fish, food processors which accept fish
15:27:27 <andythenorth> plausible yes, but not suiting this economy so much
15:27:56 <andythenorth> might provide food directly from a shoreline fishery
15:28:10 <andythenorth> small open boats, not the kind operated by your average transport tycoon
15:29:00 <andythenorth> accepts petroleum fuel? o_O
15:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like, as a booster cargo?
15:30:27 <andythenorth> it could work like the ports
15:30:44 <andythenorth> base production, boosted by deliveries of x, y, z
15:34:40 <andythenorth> ‘Fruit’ is a long-standing composite cargo
15:34:51 <andythenorth> which could maybe be split out a bit more in this economy?
15:37:57 <andythenorth> it’s not even fruit, it’s a tuber
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15:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of it
15:39:20 <Oswaldi> how can i start a Server in Coop ?
15:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yes, "Manjok" i heard before. but never really understood what it is
15:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Oswaldi: just let all people join the same company?
15:40:29 <andythenorth> wow, 38 million tons / year of yams grown in Nigeria
15:40:50 <Oswaldi> We Play but we cant see us :(
15:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Oswaldi: well, what do you mean?
15:43:29 <Oswaldi> me and friends will play Gta5 Coop, we are on the airport but i cant see them and they cant see me
15:44:06 <Alberth> why do you ask at #openttd?
15:44:25 <Oswaldi> a men send me this und say ask there
15:44:44 <Alberth> I mean GtaX != OpenTTD
15:45:28 <Alberth> with X some random digit, I don't care which one
15:45:44 <Oswaldi> also you cant help me ?
15:45:56 <Alberth> I don't know the game at all
15:46:55 <Alberth> it usually works better if you ask at a place that is about the game you want to ask about :)
15:47:25 <^Spike^> Alberth see devzone.... :)
16:05:24 <andythenorth> german import? or dutch?
16:13:24 <andythenorth> does the game work without mail cargo? o_O
16:18:01 <andythenorth> Gold or a new Precious Metals cargo?
16:18:16 <andythenorth> Precious Metals can stand for also Cobalt, Coltan, etc
16:18:28 <andythenorth> and arguably be produced in larger quantities
16:19:35 *** Xaroth is now known as Guest588
16:21:41 <andythenorth> wikipedia says ‘no'
16:41:50 <Rubidium> you better mine iridium, there's a really iridium (300x above normal) rich layer almost everywhere around the globe
16:43:49 <andythenorth> what is the cargo unit? :P
16:44:01 <andythenorth> "The demand for iridium surged from 2.5 tonnes in 2009 to 10.4 tonnes in 2010"
16:44:32 <andythenorth> many of these rare metals are a side product of copper chain, which I have in this economy
16:47:17 <andythenorth> bags of iridium?
16:47:19 <andythenorth> really small bags?
16:47:53 <supermop> 2% of prototype kilograms
16:48:28 <supermop> along with platinum and a tiny bit of palladium
16:52:52 <andythenorth> is kg the appropriate cargo unit? o_O
16:58:16 <andythenorth> I have room for 2 more cargos
16:58:29 <andythenorth> irridium? Or some silly composite of rare metals?
17:05:20 <Alberth> one called "future", and one called "expansion" ?
17:06:42 <andythenorth> “Deliver 38 crates of Expansion”
17:26:08 <Alberth> and get 1 bottle of future?
17:28:54 <andythenorth> nuts are and aren’t fruit, right?
17:29:05 * andythenorth adds a nuts cargo
17:29:10 <andythenorth> which will also include peanuts
17:29:13 <andythenorth> which are’t nuts
17:29:19 <andythenorth> this is all nuts
17:30:19 <Alberth> play with nuts train set, and you'll get nice train cargoes? :)
17:31:17 <tt_johannes> can one know (in the sources) whether the order type of a conditional order (OT_CONDITIONAL) is a station or a depot?
17:31:44 <Alberth> probably the destination?
17:32:48 <tt_johannes> hmm the destination is a DestinationID, one could cast it to both StationID and DepotID ?
17:33:13 <tt_johannes> but then, I'd need to look up both in the depot and the station pool
17:34:04 <Alberth> no idea, tried grepping for some code that handles the case?
17:34:35 <Alberth> ie "ag depot" or "indepot" or "isdepot" or so
17:34:57 <andythenorth> just too tempting to add a nuts cargo
17:35:09 <andythenorth> now, if I can also find ways to add yeti and brix cargos :P
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17:37:30 <frosch123> tt_johannes: you can answer the question by trying in-game
17:37:43 <frosch123> hint: a conditional order has neither a station nor a depot
17:41:44 <andythenorth> if I add Lego cargo (plastic interlocking construction toy)
17:41:56 <andythenorth> and YETI is already a cargo
17:42:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: it may be time to turn newgrfs into cargos themself
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17:43:05 <andythenorth> HEQS instead of ENSP?
17:43:09 <andythenorth> FIRS inside FIRS?
17:43:22 <frosch123> town demands 100 tons of FIRS and YETI, and supplies HEQS and FISH
17:43:53 <frosch123> HEQS are processed into DOOM, which can be boosted using BRIX
17:44:15 <frosch123> i guess you are not that far away from 32 cargos :p
17:44:51 <andythenorth> industry: V453000
17:49:09 <andythenorth> because it’s easy?
17:49:17 <andythenorth> or rare metals, because eh, dunno?
17:50:48 <Alberth> hmm, "secret plans" would be a nice cargo :p
17:51:26 <Alberth> make an industry with rare transport requirements :p
17:51:54 <andythenorth> ‘commercial secrets'
17:51:58 <Alberth> uranium, secret plans
17:52:13 <andythenorth> smuggling economy
17:52:31 <Alberth> yeah, it goes that way very soon
17:52:41 <andythenorth> I think there’s something in it
17:52:48 <andythenorth> but the quantities would be low :P
17:53:12 <Alberth> money printing presses
17:58:20 <Alberth> the challenge is how to make the game interesting
17:58:59 <andythenorth> also, unless custom vehicle grfs are provided
17:59:09 <andythenorth> the quantities transported mismatch the vehicles
17:59:13 <andythenorth> impedance mismatch :)
17:59:34 <andythenorth> be ok for planes and RVs
18:02:16 <Alberth> just load any with a long time in the time table?
18:05:24 <andythenorth> IRL the main source of it is the part of Africa I’m basing the economy in
18:05:56 <Alberth> can't get around it :p
18:06:43 <andythenorth> gold and diamonds in same economy?
18:09:11 <tt_johannes> hmm a question: if your city would have a railway route network where there is one railway line where some trains drive A->B->C->D, and others drive A->D->C->B, would you think that this would confuse many people?
18:09:27 <tt_johannes> in other words: would you suggest that they mark these as two different lines?
18:10:31 <tt_johannes> imagine you are a bit tired, enter a train at A and want to got to B, but you took the wrong train and then you have to travel the long way via C and D...
18:14:52 <Alberth> I never consider the passengers point of view, but then again, I am not a railway modeler, trying to replicate some real world part
18:16:28 <Alberth> I just look at flow and try to fix points where loads of cargo gets stuck
18:17:02 <tt_johannes> ok, but if you *were* passenger, what would you say?
18:18:02 <andythenorth> these are just anti-clockwise and clockwise no?
18:18:08 <andythenorth> tube lines have this
18:18:13 <andythenorth> it’s two directions
18:18:23 <tt_johannes> yes, though A is outside the circle in this case
18:18:44 <Alberth> that would be A -> B -> C -> D -> A
18:18:56 <tt_johannes> yes, I actually meant that :-)
18:19:28 <Alberth> 2 circles is less confusing probably
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18:20:17 <Alberth> and if you don't have to pay by distance traveled, it doesn't really matter
18:20:49 <tt_johannes> well if you like long train travels, it's ok :D
18:22:08 <Alberth> my train travels are always long :p
18:23:15 <tt_johannes> do you enjoy them, still?
18:23:35 <Alberth> oh, plenty to see outside :)
18:24:26 <Alberth> most people seem hooked to their phone though :)
18:34:35 <argoneus> Alberth: there's a lot of stuff on a phone these days
18:35:08 <Alberth> there is, but it's not going anywhere :p
18:35:22 <argoneus> neither is the scenery outside the train :P
18:35:23 <Alberth> people seem afraid to miss things :p
18:35:57 <Alberth> argoneus: it's not just in the train, it's everywhere
18:36:23 <argoneus> I usually sleep in public transport
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18:52:46 <Rubidium> Alberth: you must be going abroad if it's 4 hours ;)
18:53:53 <Wolf01> maybe he runs around the country for fun
18:54:05 <Alberth> sometimes you have to wait at a station :p
18:54:17 <Alberth> but tbh, I never check the time
18:54:38 <Alberth> so I don't even know how long I travel, nor when each train goes
18:55:45 <Alberth> Wolf01: no circular transport available :(
18:55:53 <Alberth> one way in, one way out :p
18:56:22 <Wolf01> we have to wait for the hyperloop
18:57:28 <Wolf01> when I need to go to Milan I have to wait 30-45 minutes at Venice-Mestre too, so the trip takes about 3.5-4 hours for 350Km
18:58:00 <Rubidium> you think that that waiting is significantly reduced with hyperloop?
18:58:20 <Wolf01> no, but at least it should be circular
18:59:34 <Rubidium> because with eurostar you need to be checked in 30-45 minutes before departure, so I'd expect the same with that line
18:59:56 <Rubidium> and why would hyperloop be circular?
19:00:29 <Wolf01> because of the loop, but it was meant to be built around cities and not point to point
19:01:43 <Rubidium> except that it's proposed for Los Angeles - San Francisco mostly along one particular highway, not really loopy to me
19:04:01 <andythenorth> cargo label for manganese?
19:07:12 <Rubidium> or... what about Mn02 ;)
19:07:31 <andythenorth> numbers allowed? o_O
19:08:51 <Rubidium> technically all ASCII characters are allowed (by the GRF specs)
19:09:18 <Rubidium> as cargo labels are nothing more than a 32 bit integer to OpenTTD / TTDPatch
19:09:34 <andythenorth> well pick one then :P
19:09:38 <andythenorth> I can’t update the newgrf wiki anyway
19:09:48 <andythenorth> and I don’t care as long as it’s unique
19:11:54 <andythenorth> can’t subscript the 2 :P
19:13:45 <andythenorth> can’t actually figure out if it’s manganese or manganese ore when transported
19:38:47 <TrueBrain> oeh, can you use \0\0\0\0 too? :D
19:40:54 <glx> still valid 32bit integers
19:41:14 <TrueBrain> indeed; that is why I am suggesting them
19:42:12 <TrueBrain> hmm ... how would >=0x80 be presented in the game .. can you do UTF-8? :D
19:44:15 * andythenorth has been researching
19:44:30 <andythenorth> for game purposes, it’s copper, even if quite different irl
19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27502 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2016-01-23 19:45:37 +0100 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> greek: 54 changes by Ferrum
19:46:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: make a fusion economy
19:47:02 <andythenorth> everything merges?
19:47:08 <andythenorth> to single output?
19:47:46 <frosch123> that's reasonably balanced
19:48:08 <frosch123> not sure how to represent the decay stuff
19:48:13 <andythenorth> I believe I’ve seen that mechanic elsewhere :P
19:48:19 <TrueBrain> just 1 cargo that represents everything!
19:49:42 <frosch123> make an office economy
19:50:05 <frosch123> beans + water -> coffee -> programmer -> code
19:50:16 <frosch123> printer -> paperbin
19:50:50 <andythenorth> does it match the vehicle capacities?
19:50:53 <frosch123> parking ground -> usb sticks -> computer -> malware
19:50:55 <Alberth> printer -> desk -> paperbin
19:51:01 <andythenorth> overscale it, like Micro Machines racing
19:51:15 <frosch123> underwear -> ??? -> profit
20:10:03 <supermop> finally some real snow here
20:10:25 <supermop> andythenorth: colbalt > pretty depression era glasswares
20:12:15 <supermop> 18 locomotive manganese train...?
20:20:17 <V453000> nice game frosch123 , pressing random arrows kind of works XD
20:23:05 <frosch123> i got it from this channel
20:23:16 <frosch123> probably from eddi or ln, or wally
20:30:24 * andythenorth needs another source of ENSP
20:33:46 <andythenorth> or I need to increase probability of Supply Yards
20:35:15 <V453000> I haven't seen this one yet XD
20:35:48 <andythenorth> replaces Heart of Darkness
20:35:58 <andythenorth> but had some useful learning
20:36:24 <V453000> it looks very good to me
20:36:30 <V453000> even farms being able to produce farm supplies
20:36:34 <V453000> the fuck is cassava btw
20:36:53 <andythenorth> I’ve never had it, but Nigeria grows 100 million tons of cassava every year :P
20:36:56 <andythenorth> so that’s a few trains
20:37:45 <V453000> I have no clue what that is but ok XD
20:38:32 <andythenorth> it’s all just ‘stuff’ eh?
20:38:40 <andythenorth> perhaps import explosives o_O
20:38:54 <supermop> sure you can find it somewhere in EU
20:39:12 <V453000> from the scheme I really like the economy
20:39:28 <V453000> building materials feel pointless
20:40:40 <andythenorth> I am trying to reduce overlap with FIRS
20:40:43 <andythenorth> BDMT overlaps...
20:42:06 <V453000> the point is, why would you invest stuff into making BDMT if it can't reach ENSP by itself
20:42:43 <V453000> or is there some connection I miss?
20:43:12 <andythenorth> BDMT just goes to towns, or bulk terminal
20:43:15 <V453000> ah manufacturing supplies can come out of it
20:43:30 <V453000> yeah but going to towns without towns having some real benefits from it, has no point
20:44:03 <V453000> sure, it is cute and awesome to have such cargoes, but once players get familiar with the set, they need to have mechanics, not just chain of "discovering stuff
20:44:31 <andythenorth> goods, same problem?
20:45:32 <V453000> goods go to supply yard, that is perfectly fine
20:45:54 <V453000> nobody will probably send them to pertol station though
20:46:14 <andythenorth> they will if Busy Bee
20:46:33 <andythenorth> imho, playing any big FIRS economy without Busy Bee is futile
20:46:46 <andythenorth> 50% of the cargos / industries are pointless
20:46:47 <V453000> do not rely on scripts tbh
20:46:51 <V453000> the grf should be stand-alone good
20:47:03 <V453000> scripts can improve it, but it should work well alone
20:47:11 <andythenorth> can’t be done with 30 cargos, 30 industries
20:47:13 <V453000> 99% people do not use FIRS with bee
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20:48:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: in africa 17% of cassava and 47% in southamerica is used to feed animals
20:48:55 <V453000> for me the aim is to make a good product first, and me enjoying it second ... but in that order :)
20:49:25 <frosch123> so, if you want southamerica instead of africa, you should deliver it to the farm producing lifestock
20:50:59 <argoneus> frosch123 why is C++ so complicated
20:51:21 <argoneus> why you do this to me ;_;
20:51:29 <frosch123> because c++ is based on c
20:51:39 <argoneus> but C is the simplest language there is
20:51:55 <frosch123> and c has a terrible history
20:51:57 <argoneus> it doesn't do any weird things because reasons and it's almost 1:1 bytecode
20:51:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: feed yard industry? o_O
20:52:09 <andythenorth> cassava has to be processed iirc, it’s got cyanide in it
20:52:11 <argoneus> in C++ I have to worry if I'm passing a lvalue or a rvalue
20:52:19 <frosch123> argoneus: there are dozen of other languages which are compiled
20:52:42 <argoneus> what I mean is C doesn't have any high level stdlib black boxes
20:52:52 <argoneus> it's a very simple language with very simple operations
20:53:04 <frosch123> but unix used c, and unix did shared libraries, and that resulted in many libraries for c, which snowballed to make a terrible language popular
20:53:28 <argoneus> C++ seems like it's the best language around if you are proficient with it
20:53:36 <argoneus> you can shoot yourself in the leg in 20 different ways
20:53:46 <frosch123> argoneus: you should distinguish between syntax, compiled/interpreted and libraries
20:54:04 <argoneus> the syntax is not an issue
20:54:16 <argoneus> like std::move is a good example
20:54:21 <frosch123> C/C++ are the languages with probably the worst syntax there is
20:54:22 <argoneus> of something I have no idea how or why it works
20:54:34 <frosch123> only competing with csh and maybe perl
20:54:45 <argoneus> which langs have good syntax in your eyes?
20:54:57 <argoneus> python syntax is based on C
20:55:00 <frosch123> compiled/interpreted can be done with about any language
20:55:12 <frosch123> libraries are the only strength of C
20:55:19 <supermop> damn it andythenorth now i've been wasting time reading about historical pigment compounds
20:55:24 <frosch123> probably even beating c++
20:55:31 <frosch123> argoneus: very wrong
20:55:44 <frosch123> python has none of the weaknesses that c has
20:56:05 <supermop> frosch123: python also has a cooler name
20:56:47 <argoneus> python syntax is the classic imperative procedural language syntax
20:56:55 <argoneus> except you use tab instead of {}
20:57:20 <frosch123> argoneus: and why the hell do you consider "c" as the definition of procedural languages?
20:58:13 <frosch123> can you even guess how many procedural languages there were before/after/parallel to c?
20:58:34 <argoneus> well, fortran, cobol, lisp nor basic have similar syntax
20:58:44 <argoneus> pascal does and pascal was around the same time as C I guess
20:58:46 <frosch123> sorry, but "something is based on c because it is procedural" is about the stupidest thing i heard today
20:58:51 <andythenorth> argoneus: just switch to haskell?
20:58:58 <andythenorth> it’s where it’s at
20:58:59 <argoneus> haven't studied history of this much, but "C-like syntax" is a term
20:59:42 <andythenorth> V453000: controversial idea: builders yard isn’t black hole, but produces ENSP
20:59:50 <andythenorth> think it probably sucks but eh
20:59:52 <frosch123> the only think python has from C are "==" and "!=", but it has equaly many things from pascal and perl
20:59:58 <argoneus> why is it called C family
21:00:11 <V453000> andythenorth: in some way, why not
21:00:39 <argoneus> tfw I get the feeling frosch123 just wants to argue with me
21:00:54 <argoneus> "WHAT? PYTHON IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE C IDIOT"
21:01:21 <argoneus> "ITS A SUPER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING, THATS SO STUPID OF YOU TO SAY"
21:01:32 <frosch123> yes, you do that quite often
21:02:55 <argoneus> two adults speak: "I think X is like Y" "I don't really agree, because Z"
21:03:05 <argoneus> you and me speak: "I think X is like Y" "wow you're retarded"
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21:04:06 <argoneus> if you have ever done C, python syntax will be completely intuitive
21:04:07 <andythenorth> V453000: got some problem with Timber Yard, it produces BDMT and ENSP, then BDMT -> more ENSP at Supply Yard
21:04:09 <argoneus> good luck doing clojure or haskell
21:04:12 <frosch123> argoneus: maybe become an artist instead
21:04:13 <andythenorth> remove Timber Yard?
21:04:20 <frosch123> in art there is no right and wrong
21:04:33 <argoneus> frosch123: I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong
21:04:43 <argoneus> I'm just saying you feel like you need to be condescending
21:04:49 <frosch123> argoneus: i have used over 40 programming languages in my life
21:04:57 <argoneus> wow, do you have over 300 confirmed kills?
21:05:04 <V453000> andythenorth: have supply yard accept BDMT directly? :D
21:05:15 <frosch123> saying python is close to c because it is imperative is stupid
21:05:24 <V453000> timber yard producing only BDMT
21:05:27 <frosch123> because 90% of languages are imperative
21:05:34 <frosch123> and all imperative languages have blocks
21:05:55 <Alberth> python is closer to java, with its reference semantics
21:05:56 <argoneus> if you can't see parallels between python syntax and C syntax maybe you haven't used them enough
21:06:15 <frosch123> argoneus: no, you do not have used enough languages
21:06:17 <andythenorth> V453000: in FIRS Timber Yard produces both ENSP and BDMT, but industries change between economies...
21:06:24 <frosch123> because by that standard ALL languages are similar
21:06:31 <Alberth> argoneus: syntax is the least interesting property of a language
21:06:33 <andythenorth> I see no parallels between python and C syntax
21:06:39 <frosch123> it's a competely stupid things to say, it says nohing at all
21:06:40 <andythenorth> other than they are languages
21:06:50 <Alberth> they both have "if" :p
21:07:12 <V453000> well andythenorth how about it produces a little bit of ENSP, and better ratio of BDMT
21:07:30 <frosch123> argoneus: it's like hungarian and irish are similar, because they both use latin letters
21:07:41 <V453000> that way you can get a little ENSP without extra effort, shitload of ENSP with extra effort through BDMT -> supply yard
21:08:07 <argoneus> frosch123: I said the syntax was similar
21:08:17 <argoneus> stop putting words in my mouth
21:08:26 <argoneus> the syntax is also similar with 30 other languages sure
21:08:31 <argoneus> that doesn't make the claim any less valid
21:09:05 <frosch123> but the syntax is not similar
21:09:28 <frosch123> only because you use words and letters to name things, it does not make them similar
21:09:28 <andythenorth> well it uses nouns and verbs
21:09:53 <supermop> anyone want to play some kind of GS game?
21:10:09 <supermop> stuck inside during blizzard
21:10:28 <argoneus> if you know C you will have 0 problems learning python syntax
21:10:35 <supermop> it's not that bad outside, but the only places i feel like going are closed or far away
21:10:54 <argoneus> if that doesn't mean it's similar, what does
21:10:56 <frosch123> argoneus: if you know any language you will have 0 problems learning python syntax
21:11:22 <argoneus> so if I learn prolog or scala
21:11:41 <frosch123> you are making a trivial statement and claim it is something special
21:12:20 <argoneus> all I was saying was
21:12:21 <frosch123> no, they are not procedural
21:12:24 <argoneus> you said you don't like the C syntax
21:12:45 <frosch123> any procedural language will help you learn python
21:12:55 <argoneus> any procedural language will help you learn any procedural language
21:12:57 <frosch123> but any procedural language will not help you learn c
21:13:09 <andythenorth> V453000: changing BDMT -> ENSP chain is a good move. So much wooden ENSP bugs me (because realism, oil wells need pipe, not planks).
21:13:15 <_dp_> brainfuck is procedural I believe....
21:13:16 <andythenorth> also it gives a longer chain, which this economy lacks
21:13:20 <frosch123> because c has pointers, and c++ has references and templates and ambiguous syntax and shit
21:13:39 <andythenorth> it is inconsistent with FIRS economy, but eh
21:13:48 <argoneus> if you learn C++ you already know C
21:14:23 <argoneus> you will have to learn style
21:14:26 <frosch123> in fact most c++ programmers will fail horribly with c
21:14:29 <argoneus> but you already know the workings of the language
21:14:30 <supermop> andythenorth or V, want to play some BB?
21:14:37 <argoneus> you know what which declaration and call does
21:14:46 <frosch123> c++ programmers have no idea how to correctly handle c strings
21:14:55 <frosch123> buffer checking and zero termination
21:14:55 <_dp_> most c++ programmers fail horribly even with c++ :p
21:14:56 <andythenorth> supermop: I would, but I would probably only have 40 mins play today :)
21:15:05 <andythenorth> so not worth your time setting up a game sorry
21:15:43 <argoneus> frosch123: tell the c++ programmer "a c string is a char array with a '\0'" at the end, done
21:16:01 <supermop> maybe i will play "make more coffee even though it is after 15:00"
21:16:26 <argoneus> btw frosch123, you have more experience than me
21:16:31 <argoneus> is it really common to find a C++ programmer that sucks with C?
21:16:53 <frosch123> when you use std::vector and stuff all day
21:17:00 <argoneus> I thought C++ programmers were not ignorant to how their language works
21:17:03 <frosch123> you have no idea how to handle buffer sizes
21:17:35 <argoneus> I suppose that's true
21:17:38 <argoneus> what about the other way around?
21:17:42 <argoneus> do C people struggle with cpp?
21:17:45 <andythenorth> supermop: coffee is good until 17.30
21:17:51 <frosch123> if you give 10 c++ programmers the task to copy a string into a buffer, they will copy strlen bytes
21:18:43 <argoneus> I thought every C++ programmer started or learned C
21:19:00 <frosch123> just because you learn the basics of something doesn't mean you are good
21:19:02 <argoneus> it's hard to dive right into C++
21:19:14 <andythenorth> I don’t see learning C making it easier
21:19:23 <andythenorth> maybe I am wrong
21:19:28 <argoneus> with C you don't care about implementation details
21:19:41 <argoneus> of how different stdlib stuff interacts together
21:20:07 <argoneus> there isn't as much abstraction
21:20:30 <Alberth> C++ has a changed a lot in C++11 and C++14, it doesn\t do much low level C-ish things if you want to
21:20:30 <argoneus> you can write C++ like C with raw pointers and passing them around and using c strings but it's wrong
21:20:39 <argoneus> you aren't supposed to do that
21:21:52 <Alberth> well, it depends, the language allows it, and maybe you need it or so
21:22:03 <Alberth> other languages don't give you that choice
21:22:11 <andythenorth> V453000: it’s better with BDMT not GOODs at Supply Yard
21:22:21 <andythenorth> but ENSP chain is still weak for such a big economy
21:22:50 <argoneus> frosch123: which languages do you use these days and which languages did you find cool when you worked with them?
21:23:08 <V453000> goods should remain to be able to produce ENSP for rubber
21:23:09 <argoneus> im nowhere near 40 langs and curious
21:23:46 <frosch123> argoneus: at work i use c++
21:25:10 <frosch123> at home i obviously only do non-production/temporary/experimental stuff, for which i usually use python
21:25:18 <frosch123> because it just has better libraries
21:25:43 <andythenorth> V453000: goods no longer converts to ENSP though...
21:25:45 <andythenorth> due to this change
21:26:05 <V453000> but why should it no longer do that?
21:26:10 <andythenorth> because I had to swap it
21:26:24 <frosch123> though i also get in contact with a lot of plain C at work
21:26:40 <frosch123> yeah, maybe 70% c++, 30% c is more accurate
21:26:53 <V453000> wait why the fuck does fruit go directly to it? XD
21:27:19 <andythenorth> I think it needs another ENSP-producing industry
21:27:27 <andythenorth> considering explosives manufacturer
21:27:29 <frosch123> before i used python, i uses java and delphi
21:27:34 <frosch123> and before that object pascal
21:27:35 <andythenorth> chemicals -> ENSP
21:27:50 <V453000> I would just remove petroleum fuels instead
21:27:54 <frosch123> for scripting i use bash, awk, sed and python
21:27:55 <V453000> does not make any sense to me why have that tbh
21:28:15 <V453000> keep them and remove them from supply yard
21:28:20 <V453000> no reason to put them there
21:28:26 <V453000> you already produce BDMT through glass with it
21:29:05 <frosch123> it's better than c :p
21:29:10 <argoneus> I only used regular pascal after I used C for a bit, and I kept asking myself "so how do I do this, oh I can't / oh there's a weird workaround"
21:30:37 <andythenorth> glass chain is a bit daft
21:30:43 <andythenorth> it’s only there because, reasons
21:34:17 <argoneus> frosch123: do you use C++11/14 stuff at work?
21:34:29 <argoneus> im still wondering if all this is worth learning, if people actually use it outside dick stroking on stackoverflow
21:35:05 <frosch123> adoption of new stuff very much depends on the size of your company
21:35:14 <argoneus> so if I joined a startup
21:35:18 <argoneus> we'd probably use cutting edge C++
21:35:24 <andythenorth> no you’d use node.js
21:35:28 <andythenorth> and then much regret
21:35:31 <supermop> and size of the dick you need to stroke on SO apparently?
21:35:37 <frosch123> maybe "size" is the wrong word, it also involves a bit of "age"
21:35:38 <argoneus> I actually got an offer on linked like a week ago
21:35:40 <argoneus> from one of my uni teachers
21:35:45 <argoneus> and he asked me if i know ios
21:35:51 <supermop> my fiancee is hardcore python dev,
21:36:07 <supermop> but she joined a startup thats entirely a ruby shop
21:36:42 <supermop> with most of the devs as NYU acting and theatre grads who went to ruby bootcamps
21:37:00 <frosch123> argoneus: i am in a rather old company. some people are still overwhelmed by "svn", and in some dark corners you can find k&r c code, which for some reason still compiles
21:38:32 <supermop> she hates rby, but what can you do? the whole company is focused on it
21:39:35 <Alberth> slowly spread the word :p
21:42:00 <glx> <frosch123> adoption of new stuff very much depends on the size of your company <-- and the tools they use too ;)
21:42:33 <argoneus> supermop: ruby is good
21:42:41 <argoneus> the problem with ruby is you can pretty much redefine the language
21:42:46 <argoneus> so you have to learn every library separately
21:43:06 <argoneus> at least that's what my experience with it was
21:46:00 <frosch123> oh damn, i never encountered a "55" in fillomino
21:46:27 <frosch123> (sorry, likely noone here knows what that is)
21:47:08 <andythenorth> V453000: I can drop Vehicles :D
21:47:11 <andythenorth> just figured that out
21:47:15 <andythenorth> silly in this econom
21:47:46 <V453000> just turn port to manufacturing plant though I would say
21:47:53 <V453000> sounds pointless to import packaging as well XD
21:48:17 <V453000> the almighty magical convertor industry
21:48:31 <andythenorth> I like Vehicles, and it is not in FIRS
21:48:34 <andythenorth> but I can do something else
21:48:48 <andythenorth> Uranium might yet make it :P
21:49:15 <V453000> good, but make liquids terminal produce considerably less petroleum fuels than chemicals
21:50:13 <andythenorth> too easy to convert?
21:51:31 <V453000> imagine you just connected a liquids terminal
21:51:37 <V453000> first thing you want to do is probably get ENSP asap
21:51:42 <V453000> so you just connect that
21:51:58 <V453000> if you get only a little bit, it motivates you to make chemicals useful
21:52:20 <V453000> and get more that way ... and also use a lot more of the extra BDMT/etc chains linked to chemicals
21:53:15 <andythenorth> exporting BDMT is now silly
21:53:18 <andythenorth> also not realisms
21:54:07 <V453000> where are you exporting BDMT? the supply yard?
21:54:34 <andythenorth> bulk terminal exports them
21:54:41 <V453000> I don't see a big problem with that
21:55:17 <V453000> gives more chemicals from manganese, makes manganese useful
21:55:56 <V453000> have bulk terminal accept chemicals and export BDMT instead makes more sense though?
21:56:12 <V453000> chemicals + manganese -> bdmt?
21:56:58 <V453000> chemicals -> glass works -> bdmt -> bulk terminals -> chemicals is fun though XD
21:58:01 * andythenorth wonders what he actually changed
21:59:03 <V453000> I think the bulk terminal should output BDMT instead of food perhaps
22:00:10 <andythenorth> also more realisms :P
22:00:49 <V453000> idk how do you generate this but it is great
22:00:52 <andythenorth> eh, sometimes the dot file caches
22:00:56 <andythenorth> frosch123 did the dot
22:01:30 <V453000> everything is in different spots though XD
22:02:14 <andythenorth> yeah it moves around :P
22:02:17 <V453000> looks good to me in general
22:02:34 <andythenorth> I need to play test
22:02:45 <V453000> best economy in FIRS I have yet seen, for sure
22:02:45 <andythenorth> I played 2 versions of this for ~10 years each
22:02:55 <andythenorth> no historical legacy
22:02:56 <V453000> the temperate one was great too back in the day, idk how it looks now :P
22:03:14 <andythenorth> temperate basic, or the big FIRS?
22:04:00 <andythenorth> ha look how neat and tidy the flows are for ‘basic’ economies
22:04:08 <andythenorth> everything lines up :P
22:04:34 <V453000> yeah, probably the reason why it is so good
22:04:44 <andythenorth> I really like Arctic Basic, chemicals go *everywhere*
22:07:59 <andythenorth> IAHC needs gold or precious metals or uranium or something
22:08:14 <V453000> it is fine as it is tbh :)
22:08:42 <andythenorth> all of these replicate diamonds
22:08:50 <andythenorth> low production primary cargo, no processing
22:09:10 <andythenorth> doesn’t add any gameplay interest
22:09:11 <V453000> you could put it to some valuables port
22:09:18 <andythenorth> had idea of ‘merchant'
22:09:44 <V453000> exporting gold/diamonds/valuable stuff and getting vehicles sounds super realistic to me
22:11:33 <andythenorth> export diamonds, get a tractor?
22:26:41 <V453000> moar factorio & BRIX tomorrog
22:30:57 <andythenorth> ‘High Value Metals” is a crappy cargo name
22:31:11 <andythenorth> but Rare Metals is a defined term, and Precious Metals is a defined term
22:31:17 <andythenorth> and I want to cover both in a cargo :P
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22:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> bite my shiny metal ass?
22:48:21 <andythenorth> in what way are ‘better roads’ better?
22:48:32 * andythenorth generating a game
22:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> they make a wider/less road heavy grid than original
22:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so more houses for the same number of roads
22:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> with original, you often get a single house surrounded by roads
22:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> with better roads, you get at least a 2x2 block of houses
22:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's not as regular as the grids
22:51:32 <andythenorth> towns should leave a 6x2 tile gap in the middle for my pax station :P
22:51:40 <andythenorth> that option is not in the settings menu
22:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> under the hood, what actually happens is it defines the minimum distance between roads going in the same direction
22:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> original leaves a minimum of 1 space, better roads leaves a minimum of 2 spaces (which often means 2, 3 or 4. with 5 you can get another road down the middle)
22:53:45 <andythenorth> so I need better roads
22:53:55 <andythenorth> otherwise there aren’t gaps in the middle of 3x3 or so
22:54:05 <andythenorth> and I need those for station tiles when station walking
22:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> better roads has a "feature" that fills the middle of a 3x3 grid
22:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the "pure" 3x3 grid also does that
22:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why don't you just "walk" with drive through stops?
22:55:20 <andythenorth> then I’d feel obliged to run buses
22:55:25 <andythenorth> then why walk? o_O
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