IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-22
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00:47:58 <argoneus> imagine if pokemon were real
00:59:28 <Wolf01> I would like to have an Absol
01:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen that video.
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12:17:37 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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16:03:58 * Mazur wipes the perspiration off his brow.
16:04:06 <Mazur> had a bit of a scare, there.
16:05:08 <Mazur> Upgraded BIOS, had not made preparations for should it go wrong, as I did not see how it could go wrong, then laptop stayed blank for half a minute on first boot into new BIOS.
16:06:49 <Mazur> When it finally booted, X login never appeared. That, however, upon second reading, was a disk shutdown error, boot sequence was asking for confirmation to FSCK.
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16:28:45 <Wolf01> Mazur, you are lucky, my main bios has suicide intentions, it killed 2 ram banks and tried to kill the new ones, so I had to switch to the secondary one, and I updated it too just to be sure it understand what could happen if tries to do bad actions
16:29:29 <Wolf01> too bad I can't flash the main one from here, and it doesn't like to boot
16:46:05 <Flygon_> I was worried Wolf01 was trying to prevent a human suicide for a sec
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16:46:19 <Flygon> I've gone through way too much of this
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19:32:55 <V453000> train on 2 tracks? why
19:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf is that even supposed to be?
19:33:17 <V453000> heh you could make train track sprites look like 2 tracks, but good luck making it look nice
19:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, somebody wanted to make a "Breitspurbahn" GRF, but i don't know if that ever went anywhere
19:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the only "train" i know that ever relied on double track rails was the DORA cannon in the siege of sewastopol
19:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also the ultra wide track in baikonur
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27501 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2016-01-22 19:45:38 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> greek: 4 changes by Ferrum
19:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> zokier: try without fullscreen mode
19:52:55 <zokier> Eddi|zuHause: ok, it doesn't happen in windowed mode
19:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> zokier: anyway, that is almost certainly the fault of your graphics driver. all openttd could possibly do is provide workarounds
19:53:51 <zokier> thats kinda what i was afraid of
19:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> zokier: try starting openttd with "-b 32bpp-optimized" or "-b 32bpp-anim"
19:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> ("optimized" will disable palette animation, like water flowing or fire burning)
19:54:48 <zokier> same thing happens with 32bpp blitter
19:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> then i'm out of ideas
19:57:22 <zokier> ok, thanks for the suggestions anyway
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20:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> a lark, supposedly
20:26:31 <andythenorth> by definition I suppose
20:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> unless it's a nightingale
20:29:44 <andythenorth> definitions are hard
20:44:17 <frosch123> oh my, i found it kind of annoying that belts feed into the exit of underground belts also sideways
20:44:35 <frosch123> but today's fff shows that you can actually use that weirdness for something unique
20:44:37 <Wolf01> what, TT low strategy and low excitement? Did they even play it?
20:46:27 <frosch123> i also noticed the weirdness of splitters not splitting symmetrically
20:46:30 <V453000> I was seriously WTF IS THIS SHIT when I saw it the first time
20:46:36 <frosch123> but did not found such tricks to actually use it for something :p
20:47:13 <frosch123> i remember requiring a belt line switcher before
20:47:21 <frosch123> now i learned how it can actually be done :p
20:47:35 <V453000> well belt switcher is easy to do
20:47:38 <V453000> this shit is just pure magic
20:47:51 <V453000> smart, but still magic :D
20:47:58 <frosch123> you need the trick with the underground belt
20:48:01 <frosch123> or is there anothjer one?
20:48:24 <V453000> I guess you need the underground belt
20:48:30 <V453000> which admittedly is not very intuitive either XD
20:49:10 <frosch123> yeah, it annoyed me several times, that stuff feeds into underground belts that way, but i did not notice that only one lane actually feeds
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20:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> what, TT low strategy and low excitement? Did they even play it? <-- i think by "excitement" they mean "adrenaline-inducing action"
20:50:42 <Wolf01> like when you removed a signal and suddenly remembered there is another train there and no more signals?
20:50:49 <V453000> yeah ... I didn't notice it until I saw it on some post which explained tricks with belts
20:51:04 <andythenorth> TT has very low strategy
20:51:51 <andythenorth> there is a basic low-level background strategy
20:51:52 <V453000> DO I WRECK THESE FUCKING TRAINS OR NOT
20:52:05 <andythenorth> “build routes that are profitable"
20:52:24 <Wolf01> if you want to play it the base way, you can do motherboard-bus-style-track between 2 stations and flat map
20:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Europa Universalis is definitely on the "hard" side of strategy
20:52:48 <Wolf01> if you want to cram more train that tiles into a zone, you need a bit of strategy
20:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it took me months to get to know even the basic game rules
20:53:05 <andythenorth> nah, that’s mostly tactics :)
20:53:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you are mixing "hard" and "complex"
20:53:58 <frosch123> something that has so complex rules that it takes ages to learn it, is not necessarily hard
20:54:29 * andythenorth tries to figure out if there is any other strategy in TTD
20:54:35 <andythenorth> probably not tbh
20:54:41 <andythenorth> there is strategy when a GS is used
20:54:42 <frosch123> the best games are those, which are hard, but still have simple rules
20:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, europa universalis has "simple" rules. you declare war, you go into battle, and you get a result...
20:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that result is probably not good, if you have no deeper understanding of things
20:55:33 <frosch123> no, it has a plethora of ideas and building to pick from
20:55:38 <Wolf01> I don't have a clear definition of tactic vs strategy, but as far as I remember, most RTS games should instead be tactic games
20:55:47 <frosch123> trade, merchants and other weidos
20:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those are the complex things
20:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can easily play on without knowing those
20:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the tutorial says something like "put one merchant home, the other one(s) at the next downstream node"
20:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably good enough for a while
20:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "tactic" is usually whatever comes before the battle, "strategy" is what comes during the battle.
20:58:09 <Wolf01> wiki says the opposite
20:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be grey areas between them
20:58:22 <V453000> OMG I MANAGED TO INSTALL PIL
20:58:34 <frosch123> V453000: why would you have to?
20:58:41 <frosch123> what are you doing?
20:58:52 <V453000> python script for creating spritesheets
20:58:58 <V453000> we do that in factorio
20:58:59 <Wolf01> no, also wikien says that: Strategy is undertaken before the battle. Tactics are implemented during battle.
20:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: use pillow?
20:59:16 <V453000> Eddi, console told me missing PIL, so I obeyed :P and it works
20:59:29 <andythenorth> never ever try to install PIL
21:00:00 <frosch123> oh my... once there was a train weirdo who built stuff on #coop... then he decided to go into pixel drawing, transitioned to 3d modelling,... and now he start programming :)
21:00:26 <andythenorth> I went the exact opposite
21:00:35 <V453000> it's fine frosch123 , the shithead just managed to install the tool and use a script with fairly idiot-proof parameters :P
21:01:13 <andythenorth> i was coding games, then I started doing 3D CGI, then drawing, now I’m on eBay buying model trains
21:01:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: tactics / strategy /s above
21:01:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you think V will continue with lego?
21:01:45 <andythenorth> although it’s a grey area
21:01:52 <andythenorth> frosch123: dunno :)
21:01:59 <Wolf01> example, take starcraft: the only strategy I see there is "oh, I'm $race and I spawned here, so I should do this and that" during battle you use a lot of different tactics and end up doing anything about the strategy you thought about
21:02:06 <andythenorth> a battle is tactics in a campaign
21:02:27 <andythenorth> an engagement is tactics in a battle
21:02:38 <andythenorth> a melee is tactics in an engagement
21:02:46 <andythenorth> and it’s all turtles from there
21:03:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: got any landscape gen ideas?
21:03:17 <andythenorth> and can we bin the crappy tropic settings for TGP?
21:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, then, apparently "strategy" is long-term planning, while "tactics" is short-term
21:03:21 <andythenorth> because they’re dumb
21:03:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1, and strategy <-> tactics depending on time horizon
21:04:09 <Wolf01> instead TT is strategy, because you need to think about a profitable route to extend for the next 100 years, you aren't there for moving the tracks like a swamp river
21:04:30 <andythenorth> TT is _mostly_ tactics
21:04:54 <andythenorth> but that is debatable forever and a day
21:05:13 <V453000> what about playing TT with a long-term strategy, like using network which is expandable etc.
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21:05:16 <Wolf01> but you need a vaste view and prevision for the next years, which is a strategy
21:05:26 <Wolf01> if you focus on micromanagement is tactics
21:05:32 <andythenorth> I guess there are ‘strategies’ and ‘winning / losing strategies'
21:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i think what the table was trying to say is you don't need a lot of planning to get a successful company going in TT
21:05:40 <andythenorth> in TT there is only one winning strategy
21:05:44 <andythenorth> all else is moot
21:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you can always use more, but it's not required
21:06:21 <andythenorth> ‘build profitable routes'
21:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think they forgot minecraft ;)
21:06:26 <V453000> I understand tactics vs. stragey like: In starcraft, I use strategy X as in going mass marines, and in the battle I use tactics Y like splitting the marines to certain clusters
21:06:49 * andythenorth must play OpenTTD
21:06:58 <andythenorth> I am using Busy Bee, so…no strategy at all
21:07:06 <andythenorth> except don’t build stupidly
21:07:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: ideas consist of: 1. rename 'smoothness' to 'scale', 2. add mapgen/heightmap preview, 3. add 8 or more sliders which specify a monotonic height transformation using splines, which transforms heightmaps and mapgen maps, defines sea, plains, snowline and plateous, 4. remove the hardcoded climate-mapgen relations and instead allow saving/loading setting profiles, 5. alow setting sea, desert, rainforest and snow as percentages of
21:07:23 <frosch123> map area, instead of fixed heights
21:07:23 <V453000> to OpenTTD I would translate this similarly, big goal = strategy, implementation / how you lay out tracks / how you solve junctions/stuff = tactics
21:08:11 <andythenorth> what does ‘smoothness’ even do?
21:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: bonus points for disabling the snowline slider if a snowline grf is used
21:08:19 <andythenorth> it just makes coasts ugly or not
21:08:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: it zooms the map
21:08:37 <frosch123> rough means zoomed out: many small hills
21:08:37 <andythenorth> the only valid smoothness value is ‘rough'
21:08:45 <andythenorth> the rest are stupid
21:08:46 <frosch123> smooth means zoomed in: few extended hills
21:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i quite like "smooth"
21:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you get nice rolling hills that you can climb with rails
21:09:53 <andythenorth> coasts are ugly though
21:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of thousands of bumps that you need to terraform away, or you can't build anything
21:09:59 <andythenorth> maybe ‘smooth’ is ok
21:10:06 <andythenorth> the extremes are dumb
21:10:28 <frosch123> yep, a range of a setting is okay, if both extremes are dumb :)
21:10:59 <andythenorth> I like all the ideas :P
21:11:07 <frosch123> can you implement them?
21:11:18 <frosch123> i am rather in the mood to write a new gs :p
21:12:09 <andythenorth> I am busy with a FIRS :P
21:12:19 <andythenorth> but GS is intriguing o_O
21:12:20 <frosch123> fair, that leaves eddi
21:12:39 * andythenorth has to play test new economies, takes time
21:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sure. if you want a project to never be finished, assign it to me...
21:15:05 <frosch123> what's the difference?
21:17:32 <andythenorth> I have loads of never finished projects
21:17:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you haven’t finished any fewer projects than me
21:17:53 <andythenorth> you have finished more projects than me
21:18:10 <Eddi|zuHause> can you list a project i finished?
21:18:31 <Alberth> you started playing openttd?
21:18:35 <andythenorth> proof positive ^
21:18:50 <andythenorth> ok, I made the release, but the final useful commits to HEQS are Eddi
21:18:56 <frosch123> haha, true, eddi finished playing ottd :p
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21:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, let's say i stopped :p
21:20:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i made a random fix, that's not "a project"
21:20:24 <andythenorth> you finished more projects than me
21:20:34 <andythenorth> HEQS is the only project of mine that is finished
21:21:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ definitely Eddi|zuHause should do it
21:21:09 <andythenorth> he has the best track record of anyone here
21:22:09 <Eddi|zuHause> let's say i disagree both with your definition of "project" and your definition of "finished"
21:24:16 <andythenorth> you closed the last bug that will be closed :P
21:24:32 <andythenorth> unless a new maintainer emerges
21:31:08 <andythenorth> frosch123: the GS idea? o_O or is secret?
21:31:29 <frosch123> it's still the cargo/area based development thing
21:32:03 <andythenorth> how did it go? Win goals to unlock map areas?
21:32:58 <andythenorth> deliver something to towns
21:33:08 <andythenorth> get new industry types
21:34:03 <frosch123> it was along the lines of: there is no steel in this area, add goal to produce or deliver steel in area, independent of whether there are currently any industries that would produce/accept
21:34:21 <andythenorth> the thing I like about SV
21:34:37 <andythenorth> NCG is also fun, but can generate unwanted/boring combinations of cargos
21:35:13 <andythenorth> SV has very little dependence on the industry grf
21:35:34 <frosch123> yes, you need to make some cargo classification
21:35:39 <frosch123> what is primary, what in secondary
21:35:49 <frosch123> what can be produced now from serviced chains and so
21:36:27 <andythenorth> not sure how to do that reliably
21:37:37 <frosch123> anyway, i mainly want to try to go without goals for specific industries, but rather target areas
21:38:25 <frosch123> there is one area with a big supply of cargo A, there is another area in medium distance that has a big demand of cargo A -> proclaim goal
21:40:03 <andythenorth> I assumed it would be by town, for ease of naming
21:40:08 <andythenorth> but maybe that’s not necessary
21:42:33 <frosch123> no idea how it turns out, maybe it will be towns
21:42:49 <frosch123> but i do not want to pick towns/cargos randomly
21:43:28 <frosch123> the gs shall be the obsessed president of the company, and you are the executive director :p
21:43:37 <andythenorth> needs to be some progression, geographically
21:43:45 <andythenorth> with the right map, coast-to-coast would work
21:44:03 <andythenorth> “North of South” is a name I nearly used for a FIRS economy
21:53:09 <andythenorth> there will be powered and unpowered roads / tram tracks
21:54:00 <andythenorth> and it’s just a bit on a tile
21:58:59 <Birko> Hi,i try to make my own AI and I would like to know if it possible to get information about size of builded station via NoAI API
22:07:24 <andythenorth> Alberth: 12 goals max for BB? o_O
22:07:27 <andythenorth> seems to work for me
22:07:32 <andythenorth> forum thread had not much comment
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22:13:38 <_dp_> tried bb on btpro, 20 is about minimum imo xD
22:14:40 <Alberth> If you want it higher, go ahead
22:15:43 <andythenorth> kind of makes it pointless
22:15:47 <andythenorth> I guess maybe not in MP
22:16:01 <andythenorth> _dp_ how many players on btpro o_O
22:16:12 <Alberth> it has 20 goals for each company
22:16:19 <frosch123> are the goal shared between companies?
22:16:22 <Alberth> so you have to play coop to need many goals
22:16:28 <_dp_> though what goals are you talking about? how many to show at same time?
22:16:39 <andythenorth> how many available at one time
22:16:51 <_dp_> ah, that was 10 and I think it's fine
22:18:46 * andythenorth won’t change it right now
22:18:55 <andythenorth> it’s trivial to patch locally, when I remember :P
22:19:02 <_dp_> btw, does bb still give same secondary ind for different companies?)
22:20:40 <_dp_> that was quite drawback...
22:20:41 <Alberth> definitely possible that it happens, it only checks for duplicate goals between companies iirc
22:22:16 <Alberth> there is currently no such thing as "this industry output is for company X"
22:22:24 <_dp_> should check for that too imo, sharing production of secondaries is not a strong side of openttd xD
22:23:43 <frosch123> somehow that raises the idea to write gs that enforces the reverse
22:24:07 <frosch123> you are not allowed to take cargo from industries to which you deliver
22:24:16 <andythenorth> that sounds evil
22:24:26 <andythenorth> especially in single player :P
22:25:05 <_dp_> hm, it actually may have its uses)
22:25:16 <frosch123> it could be a competition
22:25:18 <_dp_> but I bet it's not possible with gs atm :p
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22:25:37 <frosch123> you win if you deliver more than the other guy can transport ways
22:28:28 <frosch123> you can either attack one player by delivering lots of cargo to one industry
22:28:39 <frosch123> or by scattering it to other ones
22:28:57 <frosch123> or by makind evil orders that shift the delivery in random patterns :p
22:29:17 <frosch123> but the other guy can counter attack the same way
22:29:54 <frosch123> but i guess it has troubles with blocking industry access
22:30:20 <frosch123> you would have to split the area around the industry 50/50
22:30:55 <frosch123> hmm, unless you divide the delivery ammount by the number of company owned tiles in vicinity
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22:31:01 <frosch123> yeah, that may work
22:31:11 <frosch123> both players would try to build at the catchment area border
22:35:12 <_dp_> unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling cargo delivery between stations and industries :(
22:35:14 * andythenorth wonders about Directed Bee
22:35:43 <andythenorth> prefers goals at one side of the map, every year it moves a little further across
22:35:46 <andythenorth> probably boring :P
22:36:32 <Alberth> we should put cargo payment under GS control :p
22:38:19 <_dp_> yeah, but how? gs doesn't even have a proper callbacks afaik
22:38:59 <Alberth> callbacks won't work, too time critical
22:41:19 <andythenorth> local payments per town
22:41:36 <andythenorth> but GS sets modifiers per town monthly
22:42:24 <frosch123> start small: gs can detect delivery, so you can give bonus and penalties
22:42:37 <frosch123> but didn't we already conclude that money is meh?
22:42:52 <Alberth> lack of money isn't :p
22:43:01 <Alberth> or even a negative payment :p
22:43:10 <andythenorth> some reason to deliver to x not y is not meh
22:43:16 <andythenorth> money might cause that
22:44:43 <Alberth> frosch123: you don't know where stuff came from, which makes it difficult for controlling what a user should do
22:45:55 <frosch123> you can abuse cdist for that, if you want to know the exact routes
22:46:41 <frosch123> but why does the exact route matter? unless you want to subsidise transfers, which i would appreciate :)
22:47:51 * andythenorth enumerates GS things
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22:48:04 <andythenorth> SV: intense routing challenge in small space (1 town)
22:48:29 <andythenorth> NCG: ruthless decisions about maximum speed of delivery + fast building speed
22:48:53 <andythenorth> BB: free of strategy, and makes a nice messy map
22:50:47 * andythenorth thinking about other fundamental mechanics
22:51:41 <frosch123> delivering lots of cargo using little tracks
22:52:18 <Alberth> cargo / month / track piece :p
22:53:01 <frosch123> it penalises transfers and certain transport types
22:53:18 <frosch123> and generally junctions
22:53:57 <andythenorth> I had an idea that every town has a goal
22:54:03 <andythenorth> and there are maybe 10 types of goal
22:54:13 <andythenorth> and you just do them all, then go to sleep
22:54:14 <frosch123> generally a gs should go for stuff, which players may be too lazy otherwise
22:54:27 <frosch123> the gs could favour short trains (< 3 tiles)
22:54:50 <frosch123> many short trains are also messy :)
22:55:02 <andythenorth> favours trains as a transport type :P
22:55:45 <andythenorth> I think I favour GS that say ‘build here’ rather than ‘build like this'
22:55:46 <frosch123> deliver 5000 tons of cement to gain a free canal?
22:56:06 <andythenorth> power grid was an idea I had
22:56:16 <andythenorth> would have used Zuu’s API
22:56:29 <andythenorth> every town has power level
22:56:36 <andythenorth> which modulates industry production in that town
22:57:12 <andythenorth> needs a newgrf thing though, to identify industries that produce power :|
22:58:47 <andythenorth> industries are flagged to produce power, consume it, or neutral
22:58:54 <frosch123> that is just a cheap excuse to not distribute supplies :p
22:59:18 <andythenorth> same could be done in newgrf, using town control
22:59:25 <andythenorth> that nobody ever uses :P
22:59:40 <frosch123> i don't think big-scale booster cargos work
22:59:56 <frosch123> their applification factor seems too big
23:00:16 <andythenorth> tbh, I like simple goals :P
23:00:25 <frosch123> i never liked gung-ho 4x production
23:00:31 <andythenorth> me neither, still don’t
23:00:33 <frosch123> is that still a thing?
23:00:41 <andythenorth> mostly I added it for NCG and SV
23:00:46 <frosch123> somewhen i connected 4 industries in a circle
23:00:55 <frosch123> primary -> secondary -> tertiary -> supplies
23:01:04 <andythenorth> and in FIRS 2.5 or 3.0 I will provide an option for 1.5x / 2x production, not 4x :P
23:01:05 <frosch123> and that circle amplified itself
23:01:21 <andythenorth> 4x messes up nice networks also
23:01:47 <andythenorth> but, simple town goals: ‘deliver x amount (once)’, ‘deliver x amount every month’, ‘fund an industry’, ‘have a rating of n%’
23:01:55 <andythenorth> one goal for every town on the map
23:02:01 <andythenorth> win them all for a prize
23:02:30 <andythenorth> play that on 2048 x 2048 with high towns
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23:08:19 <_dp_> btw, is there any way to stop industries from drying up and closing in long game?
23:08:47 <frosch123> manual industries :p
23:09:12 <_dp_> what exactly do you mean?
23:09:24 <_dp_> even on fundin only they still die
23:13:20 <_dp_> wish it was in game itself
23:16:03 <frosch123> luckily it's a game
23:16:36 <_dp_> aha, and not compatible with other industry sets...
23:17:18 <frosch123> it's a troll newgrf
23:17:51 <frosch123> for all the whiners who do not like randomness, and try to argue about realism
23:20:03 <_dp_> I don't care about realism
23:20:14 <_dp_> want map to be same even if players join late
23:20:23 <_dp_> now it's like dead after 30 years
23:20:54 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone who uses "realism" as argument didn't think long enough about arguments...
23:21:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: does that also hold for counter arguments?
23:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean using "realism" as counterargument?
23:22:30 <frosch123> it's realsiic, it must bad; it's bad because it tries to be realistic
23:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i think that applies
23:23:16 <_dp_> why trains require rails? it's too realistic! :p
23:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: have you tried wetrails? :p
23:24:01 <frosch123> _dp_: see, that's where realsism goes the wrong way
23:24:10 <frosch123> the interesting part are the rails, not the trains
23:24:17 <frosch123> get rid of the trains!
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23:31:50 <_dp_> damn, all I want is to do a nogrf fixed-goal server that doesn't suck
continue to next day ⏵
