IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-21
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00:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, a path signal that can be passed from the reverse direction
00:03:57 <noname121> It actually worked, thanks!
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16:58:35 <V453000> "3D" tracks are, the shittier they get in corners
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16:59:40 <tt_johannes> dumb question... is it possible to install and run openttd on Linux in a non root path? e.g. ./configure --prefix=/home/... ?
17:00:05 <V453000> just unzip it anywhere you like
17:00:36 <Taede> use make bundle and the bundle directory will contain a working openttd
17:00:59 <Taede> for newgrfs etc it will use ~/.openttd
17:01:08 <tt_johannes> Taede, you mean "make bundle" instead of "make install" ?
17:01:34 <Rubidium> and if you're really lazy, just "make run" ;)
17:02:28 <tt_johannes> johannes@quaffpot ~/cprogs/openttd $ ./bundle/openttd -g ~/.openttd/save/Nienfeld73.sav -v null
17:02:31 <tt_johannes> Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
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17:02:56 <Rubidium> tt_johannes: a "make install" isn't going to solve that
17:03:50 <tt_johannes> Rubidium: I tried "make + make bundle", which showed this error
17:03:58 <tt_johannes> (like Taede suggested)
17:04:11 <Rubidium> tt_johannes: regardless, "make install" isn't going to solve that error
17:04:28 <tt_johannes> ok but make bundle isn't either ?
17:04:29 <Rubidium> because OpenTTD doesn't ship the graphics set
17:05:08 <tt_johannes> Rubidium: ah I get it...
17:05:24 <Rubidium> *if* you have the right dependencies compiled into the executable it will ask you whether it should download it when using a graphical user interface, but if that is not possible... I would suggest reading the mentioned section in the readme
17:06:03 <tt_johannes> Rubidium: I did, but I guess it only asks me if I don't start with -v null :P
17:06:48 <Rubidium> well... you tell it to not use the graphical user interface, so what do you expect?
17:06:49 <tt_johannes> ok now it works, great
17:07:11 <tt_johannes> well thanks for the help
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17:13:44 <planetmaker> tt_johannes, just don't install :)
17:14:03 <planetmaker> ah... I'm late to the party :)
17:26:48 <supermop> V453000: make tracks flat, abuse fences for 3d rails
17:28:35 <supermop> i was thinking a could years ago about how to make monorail look better at extra zoom, and there is basically no way to do it without the rail having some actual height
17:29:06 <supermop> the only thing on a default rail tile that has any height is the fence
17:29:30 <supermop> but true, then fences are omitted on many locations
17:30:39 <Alberth> not sure that makes sens imho, tracks are also not on the ground even if they look that way
17:30:49 <Alberth> everything is just visual illusion
17:31:44 <supermop> but v's problem i assume is that at the corner, you want to make it look like the rail segment is a few inches tall, sticking up in front of the tile beyond
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17:32:42 <supermop> you can fake it easily if you assume the rail beyond is alway straight, or if the rail it self is a mush of pixels as in 8bpp 1x sprites
17:33:26 <Alberth> hmm, good point, 4x zoom may be different; I never play in that
17:34:09 <supermop> yeah, these are all areas the original artists could cheat in as there was no way to notice the errors easily before
17:35:01 <supermop> like a monorail rail is a couple feet tall, but you can fake it with a completely flat line in the original style
17:35:05 <V453000> cheating it with old ttd monorail was easy in pixel art
17:37:26 <supermop> the only thing could think of at the time was to not draw the rail, or draw it very simply
17:38:00 <supermop> and then have a fence or catenary sprite that is drawn and positioned as a monorail beam
17:38:41 <supermop> and if someone turns of catenary fo a bit, its not the end of the world that the rail is invisible
17:38:45 <V453000> nah, nothing "truly" helps ... the key is to simply hack it's supports/pillars in a way that makes the corners less apparent
17:38:53 <V453000> and fences do not get build next to every tile
17:39:12 <V453000> maglev aint got catenary :(
17:39:27 <supermop> but default monorail has no wires so doesnt work in baseset
17:40:33 <supermop> hmm blizzard coming this weekend, i should buy new boots
17:42:30 <Alberth> oh, not the game company :p
17:42:51 <supermop> foot of snow possible,
17:43:03 <supermop> have not had snow yet this year
17:43:09 <V453000> I think the trick in original TTD monorail is that it has the supports of the beam at the edges so nicely, that it does not look wtf in corners
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17:43:21 <Alberth> year is only 21 days old :p
17:43:28 <supermop> past few years in nyc has been nothing but tons of snow - but i got to hide from that in australia!
17:43:52 <supermop> haha, past few winters then , Alberth
17:44:07 <tt_johannes> if you add a new file in the video directory, how do you inform the Makefile of it? I thinks it knows automatically?
17:44:35 <Alberth> there is a "source.list" file listing the files
17:44:49 <supermop> V453000: also the original monorail rails are not much thicker than an original steel rail
17:44:55 <Alberth> and a script to update the build stuff from the source.list
17:45:10 <V453000> supermop: that makes it even harder to get to look nice
17:45:22 <V453000> I am doing maglev in a very monorail-style way
17:45:52 <Alberth> tt_johannes: projects/generate files (one is unix, one is wndows)
17:45:56 <supermop> V453000: why not just a wide uniform slab for maglev?
17:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> if you add a file to source.list, you should also run projects/generate before publishing
17:46:12 <supermop> seems that would be easiest,
17:46:23 <V453000> and in junctions it is hard to make it work well
17:46:46 <V453000> one overlays another and junctions become a mess
17:46:46 <supermop> like a transrapid track right on the ground
17:47:45 <supermop> so are monorail and maglev basically the same graphically in brix?
17:47:59 <V453000> basically it is one rail
17:48:30 <V453000> but the magic of maglev is that the bright blue top is like "electrictiy" ... the black part of the rail is a part of the underlay
17:48:49 <V453000> which means that once you build the junction, you get all connections, and then blue part is overlay to "activate" them
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17:51:00 <V453000> it works great in junctions, probably the best it possibly could ... it is the same method I use at PURR
17:53:29 <V453000> which is awesome, but "on the ground'
17:53:57 <V453000> I would like to have track-hugging maglev train graphics in brix, which is why I am trying to make the track elevated
17:55:34 <tt_johannes> I get many errors compiling a simple cpp file that just includes null_v.h
17:55:58 <tt_johannes> I guess it's missing stdafx.h, but if that's the case, that should be included in the appropriate headers
17:56:19 <Alberth> nope, it's the first include in every cpp files
17:57:54 <tt_johannes> Alberth: why don't you put it into the headers?
17:57:57 <Rubidium> tt_johannes: please come with a patch that does not include stdafx.h unnecessarily, but also doesn't miss it
17:58:21 <tt_johannes> ah, you worry about compile time?
17:58:57 <Alberth> I have no idea, it was there when I joined the project; I don't even understand why it's called stdafx.h, apparently something window-y
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18:01:23 <Rubidium> well, I found loads more silly things recently
18:01:31 <Rubidium> amongst others airliners
18:03:15 <Rubidium> airlines A and B fly the same route, airline A offers flights on A and B for EUR 450, airline B offers flights on A and B for EUR 550. Now the awards of Airline B can only be claimed when you book and fly with the same airline
18:03:30 <Rubidium> i.e. booking and flying with A or booking and flying with B
18:04:37 <Rubidium> but flying with B (regardless where you booked) doesn't give you frequent flyer stuff...
18:06:40 <Rubidium> since I'm not flying enough business class to rake in lots of points, I won't get and stay in the higher categories where the flyer points are really useful... so I guess I'm going for the cheap option
18:07:28 <Alberth> yeah, no real advantages to fly B :)
18:08:24 <Rubidium> oh, I'm going to fly with B, just going to book with A
18:09:27 <tt_johannes> why does the null video driver call UpdateWindows ? Is there some function behind it?
18:10:25 <tt_johannes> I mean, what are practical use cases for the null driver (besides debugging) ?
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18:11:42 <Rubidium> the AI regression test
18:11:59 <tt_johannes> also, I'm not sure why it can do multiple ticks...
18:12:15 <tt_johannes> what is it doing in all those ticks?
18:12:59 <tt_johannes> is it like you load a game, and then let it run for a few ticks/seconds (just without any video display), and then, e.g. save the resulting game?
18:13:15 <Alberth> I am not sure anyone ever spend a large amount of time on a null driver
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18:14:49 <tt_johannes> I wanted to write an exporter that takes an openttd map and exports a railway net graph... someone suggested to use the null driver
18:15:23 <tt_johannes> should my null driver then just make 0 ticks, then export the graph, and then finish?
18:16:57 <Alberth> 0 ticks or 1 ticks or 5 ticks, it all hardly matters, imho
18:18:18 <Alberth> you probably already thought about it longer than the total time you may waste there :)
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18:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the longer the path, the more likely it is to get to a point where it's not lost anymore
18:20:36 <Alberth> so it should circle around indefinitely?
18:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a moving train blocks less traffic than a stuck train.
18:21:16 <Alberth> no idea how to tell that to the path finder imho
18:23:00 <Alberth> just picking a random direction is probably even better
18:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but actual random.
18:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> not deterministic
18:38:40 <tt_johannes> is it a good idea to get the list of all stations of a loaded game via _station_pool from station_base.h ?
18:39:04 <tt_johannes> I thought there was a getstations function or something similar, but I don't find it
18:39:16 <Alberth> no doubt there is a FOR_ALL_STATIONS like macro somewhere
18:40:17 <Alberth> look how the stations list window accesses the list
18:40:18 <tt_johannes> ah I think it works via BaseStation...
18:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on whether it's for a car or a yacht :p
18:46:41 <peter1138> it's the amount left on my mortgage
18:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably takes a while to wear off...
18:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but mortgages should be relatively cheap right now :p
18:55:51 <Alberth> depending on when you asked for it :)
19:01:09 <peter1138> 2.5% at the moment, so pretty low
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19:18:46 <frosch123> question of the week: if they really found a new 9th planet, are they going to name it something starting with "P"?
19:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i suggested that as well :p
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20:35:15 <peter1138> bah, silly fingers won't reach from E flat to G an octave above :S
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20:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm probably lucky that going from E-flat to G doesn't involve a lot of finger movement for me :p
20:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> (but octave jumps are probably even more difficult, despite that)
21:02:35 <tt_johannes> if you pass the savegame with -g, is it loaded before the driver starts, or does the driver have to do it?
21:03:46 <Alberth> I would really hope a video driver doesn't load a game :)
21:04:55 <tt_johannes> ah ok, I just see it, it is being loaded before the driver comes
21:05:11 <tt_johannes> the strange thing is, I have my null driver now, which should print all stations
21:05:23 <tt_johannes> however, if I start it, it prints no stations at all
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21:06:03 <tt_johannes> I started it like this: openttd -g ~/.openttd/save/Nienfeld73.sav -v graph
21:06:50 <tt_johannes> and in the "graph driver", I have code like: FOR_ALL_STATIONS(st) { std::cout << st->name << std::endl; }
21:07:24 <Alberth> st->name is not a char* ?
21:08:06 <tt_johannes> it says it is a char*
21:08:22 <Alberth> ie only if you give it a new name
21:09:08 <tt_johannes> if I do "std::cout << "once" << std::endl;" it does print
21:09:31 <Alberth> you need st->string_id
21:09:45 <Alberth> but text conversion is another call
21:11:51 <tt_johannes> are the Doxygen output files hosted somewhere? or is there a make command to generate them?
21:11:52 <Alberth> char buffer[DRAW_STRING_BUFFER]; GetString(buffer, st->string_id, lastof(buffer));
21:12:39 <frosch123> better do: SetDParam(0, station_id); GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf));
21:12:49 <frosch123> that will handle all cases
21:12:55 <Alberth> just type doxygen Doxyfile
21:13:14 <frosch123> docs.openttd.org or something
21:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: maybe you should check out the station list window?
21:14:53 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: do you know the exact class name?
21:22:58 <Alberth> would be my guess, something with station, and *_gui.cpp are the windows files
21:23:11 <tt_johannes> what is the sense behind "SetDParam(0, station_id); GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf))" ?
21:23:36 <tt_johannes> first, you tell a global that you will want to get the string for this specific station id, right?
21:23:43 <tt_johannes> that's what SetDParam does
21:24:03 <Alberth> set first parameter of the string STR_STATION_NAME to station_id
21:24:28 <Alberth> then convert STR_STATION_NAME to text in buffer
21:25:18 <Alberth> STR_STATION_NAME :{STATION} <-- the string definition
21:25:33 <Alberth> in src/lang/english.txt
21:25:49 <tt_johannes> yes, but this is no C code :)
21:26:14 <tt_johannes> STR_STATION_NAME appears in the C code, but where is it defined?
21:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: the string codes are in an autogenerated .h file
21:26:58 <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: which one?
21:27:37 <Alberth> but, it's generated, not interesting as long as it works :)
21:27:47 <tt_johannes> ok it's an integer
21:28:24 <Alberth> some uint16 typedef iirc
21:28:27 <tt_johannes> "set first parameter of the string STR_STATION_NAME to station_id" -> what do you mean? is that what SetDParam(0, station_id); does?
21:28:48 <tt_johannes> but you did not pass STR_STATION_NAME to it
21:28:53 <tt_johannes> so it can not do it?
21:28:54 <Alberth> strings can have parameters
21:29:06 <Alberth> parameters are global
21:29:14 <Alberth> we're talking C+ here :)
21:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: no, it just pushes the parameter to the text stack. which string is evaluated is defined later
21:30:30 <Alberth> 1. set parameters 2.print/convert strings 3. do not do something with another string in-between
21:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> 4. don't ever try to port this to a threaded model :p
21:31:27 <tt_johannes> ok, so SetDParam(0, station_id) says: I'll print out some string later, and the first arg (number 0) of it will be a string corresponding to station_id
21:32:02 <tt_johannes> and then, GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf)) says: look up the station_id now in the string map of STR_STATION_NAME and write it to buf?
21:33:11 <Alberth> it means "print the string" the special code {STATION} (in text) means, interpret number as station number, it looks up the station name etc, and copies it to the buffer
21:33:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the "lastof(buf)" is to prevent buffer overflows
21:34:48 <Alberth> since there is no text before or after the special code, you just get the station name, and nothing else
21:35:37 <tt_johannes> ok I start getting it
21:35:44 <tt_johannes> the code now printed all my station names
21:36:09 <tt_johannes> interestingly, many of them are name "... Oil field", I did not recall having many stations named like that :D
21:36:36 <Alberth> which have shared stations
21:37:15 <Alberth> you need a station to load or drop cargo
21:37:29 <Alberth> so oil rig has a built-in station
22:05:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: 20 goals is silly :)
22:05:43 <andythenorth> overwhelming even
22:05:58 * andythenorth had to try it though
22:06:18 <Alberth> it does give you wide range of options to pursue :)
22:06:34 <Alberth> and nothing bad happens when you fail a few :p
22:06:51 <andythenorth> there is some level though, where it’s just like playing without goals :P
22:07:24 * andythenorth tries a new game with 12
22:07:33 <Alberth> at times I do ignore the goals and just build what I want
22:07:35 <tt_johannes> sorry for asking again... an "Order" (like in the Order class)... I thought it is an ordered list of stations, which some trains use as a timetable ?
22:07:49 <tt_johannes> but how can an Order then have a CargoID?
22:08:02 <Alberth> I think it's just one line in the order list
22:08:36 <andythenorth> I find that the goals prompt me to deliver the other needed cargos to secondary industries
22:08:43 <andythenorth> quite a nice side effect
22:08:44 <tt_johannes> Alberth: from reading about OrderList, that makes sense...
22:09:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, you do things you'd normally just skip :)
22:09:52 <tt_johannes> Alberth: so in openttd you can tell a train to only unload passengers at a specific station? is that true?
22:10:34 * andythenorth wonders if frosch123 has invented more landscape generation options
22:10:41 <Alberth> what other values does "only" have?
22:11:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: inventing is easy, implementing is more challenging :p
22:11:33 <andythenorth> in newgrf, I find inventing much harder than implementing now :P
22:11:34 <frosch123> tt_johannes: the cargotype is for refitting orders
22:11:36 <Alberth> tt_johannes: ie what does it not do?
22:12:21 <tt_johannes> refitting orders means: transform a coal waggon into a lumber waggon?
22:14:31 <tt_johannes> wow I did not know that you can set speed limits...
22:15:17 <frosch123> sometimes you find features by reading the code :)
22:15:24 <frosch123> esp. rare ctrl+click things
22:17:11 <frosch123> for example i never knew how to remove desert in scenario editor, until i looked at the code for how to add it
22:17:55 * andythenorth waits for more goals :)
22:19:21 <Alberth> BB should be smarter in detecting you have no stations nearby
22:20:16 <Alberth> hmm, might fail with oil rigs :p
22:20:25 <andythenorth> I need to stop quitting my games, and see how it plays out over 30-50 years
22:21:00 <Alberth> oh, you don't save, and then continue the next time?
22:21:31 <Alberth> you can just build some stuff without goal at first
22:21:47 <Alberth> iirc I made some oil connection at first
22:23:23 <andythenorth> I either get bored of my game
22:23:29 <andythenorth> or change FIRS in some way that breaks it
22:23:34 <andythenorth> or add 20 goals :P
22:30:08 <Alberth> not good in ignoring goals eh? :)
22:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> mustard bed? must be some weird british thing...
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