IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-19
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02:59:01 <supermop> new american road bridges looking good
03:02:42 <Supercheese> yeah TBRS is great but you get the mix of the modern road surfaces on bridges when all roads are dirt/cobblestone
03:26:45 <supermop> i actually don't really like tbrs
03:26:57 <supermop> but there arent any other bridge sets
03:42:03 <Supercheese> I like the tied arches
03:42:26 <Supercheese> very good looking bridges
04:04:19 <Flygon> Are bridges for rivers that don't need the damn incline
04:04:24 <Flygon> They're everywhere in Australia
04:04:26 <Flygon> For railways, for roads
04:04:37 <Flygon> Just block ships from going through
04:09:34 <Supercheese> sounds like an application for an object
04:09:51 <Supercheese> like those new creeks/small rivers from the Australia thread
04:10:02 <Supercheese> they have the fake bridges already, even
04:38:42 <Flygon> Supercheese: Yeah, but I meant something RVs can actually drive on
04:38:45 <Flygon> No speed limit, either
04:38:49 <Flygon> All the ones, at least, locally
04:39:01 <Flygon> Or - The same speed limit as the road
04:39:12 <Flygon> And the ones on NSW's Freeways are 110km/h...
04:46:06 <Supercheese> Ok, bulldoze river, build road tile, build adjacent objects faking a bridge
04:46:12 <Supercheese> that's basically what you want, no?
04:46:34 <Supercheese> just gotta make the objects look fancy enough
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06:55:38 <myztic> what's a good way to manage a lot of airports on a big map?
06:55:58 <myztic> ( if a link explains I'd be glad too, can't find anything really useful it seems )
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06:56:20 <myztic> ( airports and therefore planes, routes, et cetera)
06:59:49 <Flygon> Supercheese: True, true...but even then
06:59:59 <Flygon> How do you handle reconstructing the river if the road is modified?
07:00:09 <Supercheese> yeah, that's an issue
07:00:28 <Supercheese> whenever you bulldoze a river tile you can't ever get it back without scenario editor
07:08:32 <myztic> I think I will just set 4,5 or 6 airports in the central of the map, coordinate all airplanes from there
07:08:39 <myztic> and later found a city near that sport
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10:28:36 <V453000> I see northern humies
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11:25:16 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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12:26:16 <dihedral> __ln__: i always wonder how strange your mind actually is... but sadly there is hardly a measurement for that
12:30:55 <__ln__> my mind is the definition of normal, and anything deviating from it is actually strange
12:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that isn't really how "normal" works...
12:35:16 <__ln__> it's like the piece of iron in paris that defined the mass of a kilogram
12:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a "standard", doesn't automatically make it "normal"
12:37:44 <__ln__> we could also assume that other people's minds are a plane, and my mind is the normal for that plane.
12:47:10 <Wolf01> my bad... are you all stuck on tvtropes again?
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13:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i closed that page ages ago. it's just a pile of non-explanatory (and probably cyclic) references
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14:49:58 <Hydros> hi everyone, posted another update on the logo situation, I welcome any input. best to send pms via forums
14:50:10 <Hydros> I'll be afk but will check back in the late evening
14:53:38 <planetmaker> Hydros, a discussion in PMs is not helpful IMHO
14:54:15 <Hydros> I meant if anyone is too shy about posting, that's ok too
14:55:45 <argoneus> what's wrong with the current logo?
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15:02:42 <V453000> a lot of things, many of them are mentioned in the thread
15:02:48 <V453000> innovation would be really good
15:05:02 <planetmaker> I wonder(ed) whether the logo could be adjusted such that the 'pen' from OpenTTD could be the cargo in the train. And the first T (tilted 90°) kind of the bottom on which the 'pen' lies...
15:05:46 <planetmaker> the 'pen' of course in smaller font
15:07:19 <V453000> though I have to say I agrew with writing all letters equally
15:08:40 <V453000> how many times per day do you see people write instead of OpenTTD stuff like ottd, TTD, TT, and whatnot. Writing all letters the same emphasises that it is one "product", and especially since "TTD does not stand for Transport Tycoon Deluxe", this makes sense
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15:10:37 <peter1138> my dev folders are all called "ottd", not "openttd" :p
15:21:19 <planetmaker> peter1138, mine are also always called ottd. However... it's OpenTTD :)
15:21:38 <planetmaker> I think Hydros missed my comment:
15:21:38 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> I wonder(ed) whether the logo could be adjusted such that the 'pen' from OpenTTD could be the cargo in the train. And the first T (tilted 90°) kind of the bottom on which the 'pen' lies...
15:21:38 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> the 'pen' of course in smaller font
15:23:10 <planetmaker> in that trail of thought it could resemble a fright train... O = boxed car. penT = flatbed wagon TD = engine
15:23:45 <planetmaker> frightening how much difference one letter makes ;)
15:25:44 <peter1138> i quite like the unlabelled negative orange (2 above f1)
15:26:07 <peter1138> but i also like the current logo :p
15:29:53 <V453000> c2 o2 f1 and the 2 above f1 yeah
15:30:06 <argoneus> are we discussing guitars
15:30:20 <V453000> you are just used to the current but if you try to look at it unbiasedly (hard, I know), it is rather bad
15:31:04 <argoneus> "TTD doesn't stand for transport tycoon deluxe"
15:31:59 <V453000> welcome to copyright world
15:32:35 <argoneus> I thought you needed official permission anyway
15:32:49 <argoneus> since you can get the same game chris sawyer made but free
15:33:48 <V453000> well if you reverse engineer something instead of copying the code, you should not need permission
15:36:49 <peter1138> eh, let's not go there
15:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> "TTD doesn't stand for transport tycoon deluxe" <-- TBH, that sentence probably wouldn't hold in a court...
15:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but trademark law is even more weird than copyright law
15:49:27 <peter1138> it stops gaming sites expanding the name
15:49:50 <Hydros> planetmaker, I did miss that comment!
15:49:54 <Hydros> thanks for pointing that
15:50:10 <Hydros> more iterations coming then, evening...
15:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> are we discussing guitars <-- if your guitar has an o-string, you've probably been ripped off :p
15:54:59 <Hydros> yes to reverse engineering
15:55:06 <Hydros> all over EU we are still reasonable
15:55:11 <Hydros> we don't allow patenting software
15:55:30 <argoneus> companies put in their EULAs that you aren't allowed to RE their software
15:55:35 <Hydros> which is some of the stupidest ideas post-industrial word has come up with
15:55:49 <Hydros> you can RE it without using it, then you never accepted the EULA? :)
15:56:17 <Hydros> from what I read EULAs aren't really that enforcable or as heavy as they seem
15:56:44 <Hydros> a lot of that stuff didn't hold up in court when push came to shove
15:57:32 <Hydros> I have to get going but i'll be back later, perhaps sooner than planned.
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16:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> companies put in their EULAs that you aren't allowed to RE their software <-- german law rather specifically says such clauses are void
16:46:17 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: meanwhile germany bans half of youtube
16:46:24 <argoneus> I don't understand law
16:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably meant that people don't understand it :p
16:46:59 <Alberth> that's normal, law has no logic
16:49:41 <V453000> germany censors youtube?!
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16:51:30 <argoneus> you can't watch any high profile music videos on youtube in germany
16:51:41 <argoneus> if it has vevo in it's name it's already blocked
16:52:31 <argoneus> I thought GEMA was some short name
16:52:37 <argoneus> Gesellschaft für musikalische Aufführungs- und mechanische Vervielfältigungsrechte
16:53:35 <Alberth> gema looks pretty short to me :p
16:55:20 <Mazur> Gemma Atherton? Indeed.
16:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i've even seen videos being blocked for having music in them, that don't even have music in them
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16:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> seems like they block on a per-channel basis for music channels
17:02:05 <V453000> no wonder people pirate music instead
17:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's a PR battle mostly, neither side really wants to give in.
17:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> GEMA insists that it never actually requested any videos to be blocked, and has fought multiple court cases that the message youtube gives does not read that way...
17:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and youtube doesn't want to pay as much as GEMA wants
17:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> youtube had a license on the ground that it was an experimental startup, which ran out in 2009. and GEMA was like "you're established, now we want Real Money(tm)"
17:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> at the time the talks ultimately failed, they were reportedly like a factor of 10 apart
17:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing really has moved since then, even though youtube signed contracts with all GEMA-like institutions in all the other european countries
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18:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frodo is not quite green enough
18:25:11 <Mazur> Has he gone blue, like a smurf?
18:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but he turned red after pushing the button.
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19:00:01 <andythenorth> so where does this edible oil cargo go?
19:00:11 * andythenorth has been adding cargos with sources, but no destination except a port
19:02:39 <frosch123> usually it goes into a pan
19:04:54 <andythenorth> accepts: edible oil, bacon
19:04:59 <andythenorth> produces: breakfast
19:06:15 <frosch123> potatos + oil = food
19:06:51 <frosch123> actually, yuo can replace potatoes in that equation with about anything
19:07:51 <frosch123> if i take the menu from the asian fastfood thingie nearby, every second word is "fried"
19:08:06 <frosch123> combined with rice, pasta, duck, chicken, ...
19:08:39 <frosch123> argoneus: they also sell pizza, kebab and burgers
19:08:58 <frosch123> kind of universal fastfood
19:09:10 <argoneus> szechuan chicken best food ok
19:09:27 <frosch123> they dropped the "only meat" category though
19:10:28 <frosch123> stuff like a small-pizza sized schnitzel
19:10:46 <frosch123> oh, wait, you could add meat sauce to it
19:10:54 <argoneus> holy fuck that sounds tasty
19:10:57 <argoneus> I'd eat that with bread
19:11:04 <argoneus> why did they take it out
19:14:52 <frosch123> a schnitzel by itself is not exactly tasty
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19:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so where does this edible oil cargo go? <-- fast food chain
19:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> just a black hole for food and oil
19:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that appears in the outskirts of town
19:52:23 <frosch123> city centers consist of 30% fast food, 50% clothes shops
19:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like in shopping centers that get built just outside the town
19:52:39 <andythenorth> been considering an ‘urban’ economy for a long time
19:52:49 <andythenorth> but does it work with TTD town pattern?
19:53:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: it may compliment the town builders
19:53:16 <andythenorth> if there are e.g. 16 different industries in a town
19:53:31 <andythenorth> I never know those two tbh
19:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: those are two very different things :p
19:53:35 <andythenorth> I have to look it up
19:54:13 <andythenorth> anyway 16 industries in one town, all need deliveries, possibly collections?
19:54:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, otherwise i would not have bothered correcting
19:54:19 <andythenorth> is that actually fun gameplay?
19:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how would i know?
19:54:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: not with station spread 64 :p
19:55:10 <andythenorth> also you sometimes get things with compliments, and things that are complementary
19:55:19 <frosch123> i guess town industries can only be black holes in that cases
19:55:21 <andythenorth> and when both are free extra, it’s very confusing
19:55:27 <frosch123> inner-town cargos do not really work
19:55:41 <andythenorth> unless all trucks or helipads
19:56:27 <frosch123> still: clothes, fast food, plastic junk
19:57:23 <andythenorth> vehicles go to edge of town
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19:58:09 <frosch123> you cannot buy useful stuf in city centers
19:59:45 <andythenorth> you can in UK :)
20:00:02 <andythenorth> is it different in Germany?
20:00:09 * andythenorth remembers only vaguely
20:00:19 <andythenorth> Freiburg had shops
20:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that heavily depends on the city, i suppose. or what you define "useful"
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20:08:31 * andythenorth considers a metal-bashing economy
20:08:43 <andythenorth> expand steel mill to multiple industries
20:09:09 <andythenorth> dunno how steel is really made though
20:10:22 <peter1138> it's born in the ground
20:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you get rocks out of the ground, throw them in a big fire, then you mold it into some shape, and then you cut and fold it into your product
20:11:27 <andythenorth> and open bottles with it?
20:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> or get more rocks out of the ground
20:12:15 <andythenorth> given 3 input cargos, I can’t figure out how to combine: iron ore, coke, scrap metal, limestone and an alloy agent
20:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i, however, cannot water-land a plane.
20:12:56 <andythenorth> many have failed
20:15:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you have never been to a steel mill, have you?
20:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: not really...
20:16:45 <andythenorth> been to a cement plant
20:16:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: iore + coal -> raw iron, raw iron + oxygen -> steel, steel + stuff -> special steel
20:17:06 <andythenorth> so alloy furnace?
20:17:44 <andythenorth> ah minecraft mod has it
20:17:46 <andythenorth> must be realistic
20:17:51 * andythenorth considers a minecraft economy
20:17:56 <frosch123> the raw product is delivered liquird, and then turned into plates or pipes
20:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "liquid metal". put it into your beloved torpedo cars ;)
20:20:18 <andythenorth> me and DanMack sometimes discuss novelty ‘realistic’ economies
20:20:29 <andythenorth> no real gameplay, just playing model trains
20:20:35 <andythenorth> steel chain, also logging chain
20:21:11 <andythenorth> I think the map scale works against them though
20:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that alloy furnace can melt objects into their original ingots...
20:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> might be useful for those random gold items that zombies drop
20:23:58 <andythenorth> on a small map, I think it would be interesting to play at least once
20:24:06 <andythenorth> probably works well with SV
20:24:20 <andythenorth> industries would look a bit repetitive
20:24:49 <frosch123> well, just apply more realism
20:24:59 <frosch123> there are like 3 steel mills in europe today, right?
20:29:22 <andythenorth> ok, so to justify adding manganese as an export cargo in an African economy….
20:29:36 <andythenorth> I’m going to add a whole new, unrelated, steel making economy
20:29:43 * andythenorth may be smoking crack
20:30:22 <argoneus> these software engineering buzzwords, they actually don't have much to do with OOP
20:30:30 <argoneus> it seems to be mostly good and tested processes for making software in a company
20:30:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: following the steel industry allows some interesting development
20:30:38 <argoneus> I guess it's not that bad
20:31:08 <frosch123> considering the classic german steel mills: one turned into a tourism company, another one turned into a cellphone network
20:31:09 <andythenorth> argoneus: most of making good OOP is managing outside the programming
20:31:35 <andythenorth> the rest of OO is quite uninteresting, assuming you have good hiring practices
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20:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i asked the kerbal crowd whether i should rather use a helicopter than a seaplane and they laughed at me...
20:50:28 <Conductor_Cat> Squad hasn't mastered moving parts yet.
20:50:31 <andythenorth> outputs: broken spacecraft
20:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's a mod for it
20:51:10 * andythenorth has a minerals headache
20:51:42 <andythenorth> maybe I should play a game of openttd
20:51:48 <andythenorth> instead of a game of wikipedia
20:53:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: trying BB with 20 goals :P
20:53:18 <andythenorth> I assume I hacked that and have forgotten
20:53:48 * andythenorth tries a very large map
20:55:31 <andythenorth> nah looks boring
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21:09:31 <andythenorth> tropic map generator :(
21:10:20 <andythenorth> how would I patch it to use the temperate generator?
21:10:39 <andythenorth> tropic: “mostly flat"
21:10:46 <andythenorth> it’s barely a terrain generator :P
21:11:31 <andythenorth> “stop complaining andythenorth and start fixing"
21:30:16 <andythenorth> can’t add more cargos really
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21:47:05 <andythenorth> way too much bloody desert in this generator
21:48:12 <andythenorth> yeah, TGP is just crap for Tropic
21:48:16 <andythenorth> the original is better
21:48:43 <andythenorth> even though it makes stupid rectangular landscapes
21:49:09 <andythenorth> at least it adds some rainforest and mountains
21:49:53 <andythenorth> original accidentally generates oases too
21:58:25 <andythenorth> so in landscape.cpp
21:58:56 <andythenorth> I want to patch TGP to use the tile height generator from temperate
21:59:04 <andythenorth> but still needs to generate desert / rainforest
22:00:13 * andythenorth fools with magic numbers
22:00:17 <andythenorth> NFI what they do
22:04:18 <Alberth> copy them from temperate?
22:06:23 <frosch123> hmm, i cannot get pydot to work :/
22:06:37 <frosch123> it fails to load a dot file, which works fine in dot
22:06:50 <frosch123> giving me a crypting error from pyparsing :/
22:07:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: paste?
22:07:36 <andythenorth> although I have no idea :)
22:08:17 <argoneus> "what do I name my project"
22:08:21 <argoneus> "let's go with p1qdevgdt"
22:09:20 <frosch123> it seems to try to skip whitespace
22:09:38 <frosch123> feels like a broken py2->3 conversion to me :p
22:09:49 <frosch123> like the input containing character numbers
22:09:58 <frosch123> and the parser expecting a string
22:10:34 <frosch123> well, i called a highlevel funtion, to which i pass the filename
22:11:20 <andythenorth> /* Desert terrain needs special height distribution.
22:11:20 <andythenorth> * Half of tiles should be at lowest (0..25%) heights */
22:13:00 <frosch123> pydot fails for bytes, pyparsing for string
22:13:45 <andythenorth> how boring of them :)
22:13:54 <frosch123> i wondered whether it is maintained :p
22:15:13 <andythenorth> pypi suggest it is
22:15:45 <andythenorth> no, I don’t want malware, thanks
22:16:38 <andythenorth> nah pydot is dead
22:17:29 <andythenorth> but pull request not accepted yet
22:19:13 <andythenorth> in other news, in tgp.cpp, I copied the LT_TEMPERATE landscape settings for the the LT_TROPIC case
22:19:15 <argoneus> what about the bug where Ian isn't here anymore :(
22:19:18 <andythenorth> much better results imho
22:19:26 <andythenorth> landscape is obviously subjective
22:19:37 <andythenorth> but endless flat desert makes boring gameplay
22:19:49 <andythenorth> and can be achieved trivially with a heightmap or SE
22:20:44 <andythenorth> the original landscape generator does *not* make endless flat deserts
22:21:16 <andythenorth> it was…fixed? :P
22:21:26 <andythenorth> there is a case that anyone who is seriously attached to current TGP tropic configuration could just go whistle, no?
22:22:34 <frosch123> i pondered to remove all the mapgenerator presets, and instead add some sliders and profiles
22:22:46 <frosch123> similar to chills, but not as cryptic
22:23:18 <frosch123> some of the current mapgen settings are mislabeled imho
22:23:25 <frosch123> while others have a weird scaling
22:23:54 <frosch123> and i agree that landscape should not affect the terrain generator
22:24:06 <frosch123> but the terrain generator should offer more options
22:24:09 <frosch123> independent of landscape
22:24:19 <frosch123> including a preview :p
22:24:50 <andythenorth> I do not disagree :D
22:25:02 <andythenorth> in the short term, I like my patch :P
22:25:41 <andythenorth> do the transforms map meaningfully to landscape?
22:25:51 <andythenorth> e.g. “plateaus: few | many”
22:26:02 <andythenorth> “low plains: few | many"
22:26:06 * andythenorth suspects only partly
22:27:49 <Wolf01> "maybe he is transparency blind, like color blindness"... internet again :(
22:28:17 <argoneus> check your transparency privilege, shitlord
22:28:23 <andythenorth> ha ha, SA Town Names has ‘stomp’
22:31:46 <andythenorth> also ha ha the game is good
22:31:53 <andythenorth> the bad bits really stick out these days
22:32:14 <andythenorth> so much got fixed / improved
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