IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-18
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07:44:09 <myztic_> 2 trains crashed into each other
07:44:15 <myztic_> how to get rid of the remains?
07:44:51 <andythenorth> clears over time
07:45:39 <myztic_> (signals are hard for newbies :D)
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09:42:37 <V453000> actually drawing whale bones could be fun :D
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10:23:38 * andythenorth wonders if 'minerals' is a dumb cargo
10:24:08 <dihedral> andythenorth: make a redbull factory which requires "wings" :-P
10:24:24 <andythenorth> there are so many under-used cargo ideas :)
10:24:27 <dihedral> then you have a chickenfarm ....
10:24:57 <andythenorth> V453000 Silly Industries grf? o_O
10:25:06 <andythenorth> I wouldn't play it, ever, but would be fun to make
10:27:03 <dihedral> fasst food would also be interesting
10:27:34 <dihedral> factories with different requirements produce fast food which has to be taken to towns
10:31:11 * andythenorth wonders if Gold and Diamonds in same economy is stupid
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10:32:47 <andythenorth> eh, out of cargos anyway :P
10:33:49 <V453000> andythenorth: minerals and gas ftw
10:34:57 <Clockworker> it's enough to tolerate you in the coop channel
10:35:21 <V453000> I can kick you from the coop channel so you do not have to wittness me twice? :D
10:35:54 <Clockworker> but then you'd miss my hub goodness
10:36:23 <V453000> I did not say I will :P
10:36:29 <andythenorth> V453000: going to add gas in one economy :P
10:36:55 <Clockworker> I am, I know you'd miss it, the rising star of openttdcoop
10:36:56 <andythenorth> 'minerals' in this case is all the rare stuff, like coltan, cobalt, zirconium etc
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11:26:54 <andythenorth> V453000: new shit works
11:45:54 <V453000> :) you mean the ball things?
11:46:20 <V453000> yeah, changes to shit will be done as well but I like the progress a lot
11:46:34 <V453000> happy, bright theme, and I will try to add some happy colours to the grass and stuff
12:13:38 <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:16:36 <argoneus> does anyone here have any experience with AI?
12:18:18 <V453000> yeah in my experience OpenTTD's AI builds nice railways
12:45:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
12:54:09 <Flygon> I wonder if an AI script can be made
12:54:15 <Flygon> To found towns, form the roads
12:54:23 <Flygon> And separate AIs controlling separate companies to build the railways
12:54:47 <Flygon> And effectively create a recreation of Australia's railway system from inception (early 1850s)
12:54:53 <andythenorth> pikka's Civic AI builds roads
12:54:56 <Flygon> Along with the towns founded
12:55:02 <Flygon> Can the AI script found towns?
12:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> found towns is generally rather a GameScript task
12:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> seing as it is not limited by money and stuff
12:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, most of the things needed for that should be there.
12:57:47 <V453000> XD good guy AI automatically funding industries and towns near player's actions, effectively blocking them XD
12:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> except for people switching companies at stations, that needs infrastructure sharing, and that has... issues
13:18:57 <andythenorth> I dunno, in this West African economy, exporting Iron Ore seems boring somehow
13:19:04 <andythenorth> and switching to bauxite doesn't help
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13:25:06 <andythenorth> could do cobalt, but it tends to come from copper mines, already got copper
13:27:17 <V453000> changing the name does not really change anything
13:27:25 <V453000> you could call it monkey shit
13:27:56 <andythenorth> it makes no difference to gameplay
13:27:58 <V453000> as I once said :P draw a scheme, make system
13:28:09 <V453000> earn infinite $$$ was the final step I believe
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14:12:09 <leolrrj> could you suggest me how to start? I did the beginning guide in game but I'm still bit confused...
14:13:10 <leolrrj> I never played transport tycoon before too
14:13:17 <argoneus> leolrrj: what are you confused about my friend?
14:13:33 <leolrrj> I wanna understand the game modes...
14:13:49 <argoneus> you mean the biomes?
14:14:27 <leolrrj> is there a competitive mode? against other companies?
14:14:39 <argoneus> the game by default is in "competitive mode"
14:14:41 <leolrrj> or it's like a sandbox game?
14:14:46 <argoneus> you can either join multiplayer servers or add AI companies to your game
14:14:52 <argoneus> or you can choose to play solo and make the best company
14:15:08 <argoneus> there are also MP servers with custom gamescripts
14:15:18 <argoneus> which is like "get the most population in 3 hours"
14:15:24 <argoneus> that's competitive as well
14:15:47 <argoneus> just explore the mp servers if you want to try these out
14:15:53 <argoneus> if you want to sandbox or play against AI that's fine too
14:16:14 <leolrrj> but I'm feel to weak yet lol
14:16:19 <leolrrj> I cannot make profits
14:16:37 <leolrrj> I'm starting by creating bus and bus stations on cities
14:16:37 <argoneus> money is rarely a problem in this game
14:16:45 <leolrrj> and I think it's not profitable
14:16:54 <argoneus> buses are a long-term investment
14:16:58 <argoneus> they grow cities rapidly
14:17:06 <argoneus> if you want to make money you use trains
14:17:09 <V453000> trains are the answer leolrrj
14:17:23 <V453000> just connect things which are as far away from each other as possible, and you get a lot of profit
14:17:37 <V453000> of course as long as possible is within some bounds of feasibility for you :)
14:17:46 <leolrrj> I will connect to a server and try that strategy then
14:17:47 <V453000> but the more distant you transport, the better
14:17:53 <leolrrj> should I start by coals
14:18:06 <argoneus> if your train is slow then you might end up making less
14:18:11 <V453000> because coal drops its value over time very little
14:18:17 <Wolf01> everything is profitable, you must only understand how to do it well, I often start with ships and have a profitable route in 1-2 years
14:18:20 <argoneus> leolrrj: early game you want to use either oil or coal
14:18:25 <argoneus> the problem with oil is it only drops
14:18:26 <V453000> argoneus: that train would have to be super slow or carry super volatile cargo
14:18:35 <argoneus> coal is the top probably
14:18:47 <argoneus> I wish oil was viable
14:18:52 <argoneus> the production of oil drops so fast
14:19:32 <argoneus> V453000: i suppose you're right
14:19:37 <argoneus> generally longer is better i guess
14:19:55 <argoneus> the distance is measured in air-distance, right
14:19:59 <argoneus> not how long the train has travelled
14:20:01 <argoneus> that'd make no sense
14:20:59 <leolrrj> should I place my HQ before I start to make trains?
14:21:39 <V453000> manhattan distance I believe
14:21:58 <V453000> between station signs of source and destination
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14:22:31 <argoneus> leolrrj: your HQ doesn't really do anything
14:22:38 <argoneus> afaik it only accepts mail/goods/passengers later on
14:22:48 <argoneus> if it gives a bonus it's very minor
14:23:43 <V453000> only interesting part about HQ is that it costs like 1% of the money you have or something
14:23:51 <V453000> so if you build it later on, you pay more for it :)
14:27:36 <andythenorth> I don't think that's the abbreviation
14:28:44 <argoneus> V453000: do you factorio full time these days?
14:28:48 <argoneus> or do you do multiple contracts or something
14:28:58 <argoneus> I recall you saying you were doing 3d graphics in some random non-prague city
14:29:13 <argoneus> did you move or do you work remotely?
14:29:33 <V453000> I travel two times a week to Prague, for 2 days per trip
14:29:44 <V453000> but I am moving to Prague in about 2 months from now
14:29:53 <argoneus> so you have an apartment here or something?
14:30:09 <argoneus> prague the city of dreams))
14:30:11 <V453000> yes my father has a flat here, so I can stay over night
14:30:44 * andythenorth did Prague, tourism style
14:30:48 <V453000> but we have a baby coming any day now with my wife, so we are looking forward to move to Prague for a more proper setup :)
14:30:54 <argoneus> wait you have a waifu?
14:30:58 <argoneus> I thought you were solo
14:31:07 <andythenorth> V453000 I thought you were sticking to animals :o
14:31:09 <V453000> andythenorth: tourism style = beer n bitches?
14:31:36 <andythenorth> V453000 is the most responsible person in this channel these days
14:31:37 <argoneus> thanks for that image
14:31:40 <V453000> yeah speaking of animals my pet monster snail died like 1 week before christmas
14:32:01 <V453000> roasted itself on the heating mat ...
14:32:11 <V453000> I had a giant african snail in terrarium
14:32:30 <argoneus> I've heard of people getting all sorts of pets
14:32:35 <argoneus> even rats or ferrets or snakes
14:32:41 <argoneus> never heard of anyone getting a snail
14:32:54 <V453000> actually if you think about it a snail is extremely good as a pet
14:33:02 <argoneus> you can't train it to fetch
14:33:20 <argoneus> also don't they spread that slimy goo stuff?
14:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't train a cat to fetch either.
14:33:24 <V453000> it is quiet, does not stink, you just feed it once a day and give it water, it is cheap
14:33:37 <V453000> you can pat it, put it on your hand, shower it, ...
14:33:53 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause cats also aren't pets
14:34:31 <V453000> cats are great, if one day I have a house I will buy a cat ... only issue is that wife is a parrot/other birds person, and cat does not seem very compatible
14:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> in sovcat russia?
14:34:54 <argoneus> V453000: do a compromise and get a bat
14:34:56 <argoneus> it's like a flying cat
14:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> bats are more like flying mice
14:35:24 <argoneus> don't ruin it for me:(
14:35:32 <argoneus> I can't think of anything else that looks like a cat but flies
14:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what they are called in a lot of languages
14:35:40 <V453000> no thanks, bats do not sound too nice
14:36:08 <andythenorth> Need Moar Cargos
14:36:21 <argoneus> V453000: what's wrong with parrots
14:36:37 <V453000> nothing, cats kind of try to eat them though
14:36:55 <V453000> I hate dogs beyond anything
14:36:58 <argoneus> doges are friends with whoever you make them be friends
14:37:16 <argoneus> whichever is the domestic one
14:37:17 <V453000> no doges are fucking retards who stink, require permanent attention and enslave you completely
14:37:31 <V453000> and you have to go OUTSIDE with them
14:37:55 <argoneus> dogs are nice if you have a garden I guess
14:38:00 <argoneus> in a flat it probably sucks
14:38:23 <V453000> no dogs are not nice period
14:38:41 <Wolf01> <argoneus> I can't think of anything else that looks like a cat but flies <- owl?
14:38:48 <argoneus> OH Wolf01 you a genius
14:38:53 <argoneus> they look cool as fuck
14:38:57 <V453000> owls are fucking amazing, yes we might get one some day
14:39:06 <V453000> but probably a big parrot first
14:39:16 <V453000> kids sound like a good pet too
14:39:23 <Wolf01> here you need a special licence to have birds of prey of any kind :(
14:39:52 <argoneus> V453000: when is your babby due?
14:40:08 <V453000> argoneus: last friday :D
14:40:16 <argoneus> you said it's coming any day
14:40:42 <argoneus> is it a boy or a girl
14:41:06 <argoneus> no exciting openttd adventures then
14:41:12 <V453000> how would you know :)
14:41:22 <argoneus> do you see any girls around here? :D
14:41:33 <V453000> andythenorth: what gender are your puny human pets?
14:42:14 <argoneus> in which V453000 realizes they don't care about his junctions
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15:12:19 <leolrrj> train is the answer!!!
15:12:28 <leolrrj> I'm very well using trains
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16:20:34 <argoneus> leolrrj: it's called transport tycoon deluxe
16:20:40 <argoneus> but it's more train train deluxe
16:21:01 <leolrrj> argoneus: why my server does not accepts airports?
16:21:18 <V453000> train train deluxe XD
16:21:22 * andythenorth makes Road Vehicle Deluxe
16:21:36 <argoneus> leolrrj: some servers disable airports
16:21:39 <argoneus> because they think it's cheating
16:21:55 * V453000 makes Bullshit Landscape Deluxe
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16:23:43 <andythenorth> V453000: keep it bright
16:24:01 <andythenorth> also, bank all your sleep ever
16:24:07 <andythenorth> owing to impending child
16:24:21 <V453000> sleep is fucked already
16:24:54 <argoneus> at least your bank isn't negative
16:25:20 <argoneus> me at midnight: I should go to bed soon
16:25:20 <andythenorth> but not to take things out of the oven
16:25:28 <V453000> but bought coffee and some caffeine+taurin+stevia chewing gum
16:25:33 <argoneus> me at 0:05: what's this article/video/game
16:25:40 <andythenorth> also BT headphones
16:26:13 <V453000> we got a old-school piece of cloth for carrying babiez
16:26:29 <V453000> am thinking the same thing, will I be able to work with it on :D
16:26:30 <argoneus> V453000: you mean the thing where you suffocate them on your tits?
16:26:55 <argoneus> it can be dangerous if you are careless
16:26:58 <argoneus> which you aren't so it's fine
16:27:17 <V453000> except there are many various ways how to tie it, and the babies seem to be rather alive mostly
16:27:20 <argoneus> I know this because I've never had a baby only read internet discussions
16:28:17 <argoneus> V453000 how old were you btw?
16:28:24 <argoneus> I thought you were like 22
16:28:46 <argoneus> that's an early age to have babies
16:29:09 <V453000> babies are swag #yolo
16:29:42 <argoneus> I tried to remember if I was 20 or 21
16:29:50 <argoneus> I always thought people were retarded when they don't know their age
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16:30:32 <argoneus> Alberth do you think software engineering is pointless and why yes?
16:31:05 <Alberth> hmm, you're asking me whether my job is pointless?
16:31:45 <V453000> the fuck is it anyway
16:31:52 <argoneus> Alberth: I mean the theoretical software engineering
16:31:55 <Alberth> you're not expecting an unbiased answer I hope :p
16:31:57 <argoneus> with all the diagrams and processes
16:32:14 <argoneus> I have to learn it for an exam and I can't say I've ever seen anyone mention any of those buzzwords or use them
16:32:25 <andythenorth> you have to learn it
16:32:26 <argoneus> and when I worked the most software engineery things we did were scrums and code reviews
16:32:32 <andythenorth> so you can defend yourself against consultants
16:32:32 <argoneus> which is common sense
16:32:42 <andythenorth> common sense is not commonly distributed
16:33:01 <argoneus> andythenorth: so software engineering has nothing to do with programming and more how to get customers?
16:33:15 <andythenorth> you also have to learn software engineering to defend yourself against people who have done the course and use it as a weapon
16:33:26 <andythenorth> "of course, the proper way to do xyz is …."
16:34:02 <Alberth> argoneus: I think you sbhould at least know what people mean when they mention buzzwords like scrum
16:34:47 <argoneus> Alberth: what do you do as a job?
16:34:49 <dihedral> argoneus: if you have to learn it, you should know why :-P
16:34:51 <argoneus> I didn't mean to insult you or anything
16:34:53 <V453000> ASSESS NEEDS XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
16:35:07 <V453000> anus hereby requires:...
16:35:09 <argoneus> I just find most of the buzzwordy stuff useless as a programmer
16:35:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: is a consultant
16:35:25 <Alberth> argoneus: that diagram is so general, you can fit it on scrum and loads of other methodologies
16:35:36 * andythenorth had better come back later
16:35:42 <andythenorth> this page won't get validated on its own
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16:35:51 <argoneus> Alberth: so you meet with customers, figure out what they want, figure out what you can do and how to do it, and put it in a form you can both understand and that isn't ambiguous?
16:35:53 <dihedral> that diagramm shows general porject management :-P
16:36:17 <argoneus> there's a bunch more things like "V model"
16:36:24 <argoneus> which literally just says "code stuff and test it" except it's a diagram
16:36:28 <V453000> I aint no fuken model
16:36:47 <dihedral> you probably aint pretty enough V
16:36:52 <Alberth> argoneus: in the end it's all "code this problem
16:37:13 <dihedral> you could start a forums contest
16:37:22 <argoneus> Alberth: I just don't like the idea of having a general approach to solving problems
16:37:28 <argoneus> every problem is unique, you can't just say "ok now step 5"
16:37:36 <Alberth> argoneus: right, and scrum isn't general?
16:37:49 <dihedral> argoneus: why can you not
16:37:54 <argoneus> scrum is nothing special, it's just "let's meet every day and figure out what we're gonna do"
16:37:55 <Alberth> argoneus: these models are high level view, of course they are general
16:38:08 <dihedral> scrum is more than that
16:38:18 <argoneus> all the software engineery stuff I have read about seems to imply you're doing object oriented programming
16:38:30 <argoneus> it defines the problem and solution in OO
16:38:39 <Alberth> and the high level and real practice don't touch much, but it's useful to know the big global picture
16:39:07 <argoneus> Alberth: what kind of software does your company make?
16:39:14 <Alberth> argoneus: you should to more realtime control in C :)
16:39:16 <argoneus> also I assume being a consultant is stressing
16:39:57 <argoneus> see, embedded systems is one place where OO just breaks down
16:40:03 <argoneus> it doesn't work like that
16:40:04 <Alberth> my "customers" are researchers of the university where I also work
16:40:13 <argoneus> can you still tailor software engineering buzzwords to it?
16:40:17 <argoneus> or functional programming
16:40:51 <dihedral> Alberth: what university?
16:41:09 <Alberth> of course you can, there sure are design methodologies that work for real time control, eg all the methodologies that existed before OO got invented
16:41:28 <Alberth> dihedral: Eindhoven University of Technology
16:41:59 <Alberth> where I build complilers and simulators for research purposes
16:42:18 <argoneus> isn't that computer science?
16:43:10 <Alberth> it's pretty close to it
16:44:01 <Alberth> but the difference is that my code works also for real industrial cases, with proper documentation and so on
16:44:19 <Alberth> while research is typically building much more experimental code
16:45:49 <Alberth> ie just a proof of concept
16:46:52 <Alberth> why do you think I have this job :p
16:47:08 <argoneus> to rake in money and buy whores
16:50:44 <Alberth> oh, brix needed a post
16:58:35 <dihedral> Alberth: specifically love the screenshot in the second post
17:12:49 <V453000> nice, constructive criticism <3
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17:21:55 <Alberth> it misses a few entries :p
17:25:56 <V453000> I might die of happiness
17:28:46 <Alberth> /me retracts the submission to avoid death of V
17:29:31 <Alberth> just read it later? :)
17:30:06 <V453000> I will reply later, factorio stuff now :P
17:30:34 <V453000> and perhaps someone else will say stuff to, I feel like by answering everything immediately people do not need to talk as much anymore XD
17:30:49 <V453000> omg I wrote too as to
17:30:57 * V453000 goes hang himself pronto
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18:07:10 <supermop> isn't it evening where alberth is?
18:08:15 <V453000> I understood it as "Alberth moans all the time" :P OR "Alberth pleases ladies where-ever he goes"
18:09:29 <Alberth> it's also not "moan" :p
18:10:13 <argoneus> I moan when my terminus doesn't have deadblocks
18:11:04 <Alberth> that's easy, just remove an exit track :)
18:11:44 <argoneus> what does moin even mean?
18:11:48 <argoneus> I thought it was german for "sup" or something
18:12:11 <V453000> it means blitzkrieg in uranus
18:12:39 <Alberth> so, I type English words too
18:14:15 <argoneus> isn't it just a local thing?
18:16:09 <Alberth> I don't understand what your point is
18:16:21 <argoneus> how did you get to know/use moin
18:16:23 <Alberth> I am not allowed to use "moin" ?
18:16:39 <argoneus> you are allowed to use "siemka" for all I care :P
18:16:47 <argoneus> I'm just wondering what led you to using it
18:16:56 <argoneus> I don't know any other person/channel to use moin
18:17:02 <Alberth> /me blames the #openttd channel
18:17:28 <V453000> it is the same as if I liked saying apeshit or putting iterations of fuck and shit where-ever I can because why the fucking shitnot
18:17:45 <V453000> which I obviously don't
18:20:55 <argoneus> you sound like a deliquent
18:21:33 <V453000> delinquent dɪˈlɪŋkw(ə)nt/ adjective adjective: delinquent 1. (typically of a young person) tending to commit crime, particularly minor crime.
18:27:12 <leolrrj> how can I increase inhabitants?
18:28:12 <V453000> fund buildings at the town
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18:28:39 <argoneus> leolrrj: make a bus line around the city
18:29:00 <argoneus> or was it 5 stations
18:30:08 <argoneus> basically every active station in the city increases growth
18:30:16 <argoneus> up to like 4 or 5, I think it was 4
18:54:22 <leolrrj> how to bring grains to farm?
18:55:56 <argoneus> you bring grain to factory
18:56:00 <V453000> note: produces grain means it shits it, not eats it
19:06:15 <tokai> There are different types of farms, no? Some farms need grain to feed their pigs and sheep. :)
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19:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27500 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2016-01-18 19:45:36 +0100 )
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> frisian: 16 changes by gjannema
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19:52:43 <tt_johannes> is there a struct in the source which contains everything that's written into a savegame?
19:54:30 <frosch123> it's all in the saveload folder
19:54:50 <frosch123> but it's not a single struct, because it handles different versions of savegames
19:56:53 <tt_johannes> frosch123: for example, how can I read all train station names from a savegame? can you please give me a hint?
19:57:16 <frosch123> either patch openttd, or write a gamescript
19:57:36 <frosch123> don't even try to write a independent savegame loader
19:58:14 <tt_johannes> so if I just wanted to write a simple script using a part of openttd as library, and that script should just print all station names, nothing more...
19:58:51 <tt_johannes> what C++ function would I need to call?
19:59:34 <frosch123> check the station list gui :p
20:03:32 *** Clockworker__ is now known as Clockworker
20:04:09 <argoneus> is the savegame format really that complex?
20:04:43 <frosch123> it is not self-descriptive
20:04:52 <Alberth> if you want to load all game versions, yes
20:04:56 <frosch123> so you need to adjust the reader for every epsilon change
20:05:40 <tt_johannes> ahh, I found SaveOrLoad...
20:05:43 <tt_johannes> that sounds good :)
20:06:07 <Alberth> tip of the ice berg :p
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20:06:15 <frosch123> tt_johannes: follow what the command line options "-g <savegame>" and "-v null" do
20:06:22 <frosch123> the first one loads a saegame after start
20:06:40 <frosch123> the other one invokes a frontend driver, which in your case may print the stuff and then exitr
20:08:44 <tt_johannes> frosch123: what do you mean by "in your case"? Do you mean I could write a script that is being executed due to -v null?
20:11:29 <frosch123> tt_johannes: add a file "src/video/johannes_v.cpp" using null_v.cpp as template, register it as "video driver" and then add your code to MainLoop() instead of the stuff from null_v.cpp
20:13:12 <tt_johannes> frosch123: would you consider this as a clean, good design, or is this a hackish way to abuse the video driver thing?
20:13:46 <frosch123> i would consider it the easiest way to insert custom code instead of the normal game loop
20:14:40 <leolrrj> for passenger trains what type of load cargo should I choose? full load any cargo?
20:15:08 <Alberth> usually doesn't matter, you get more passengers than you can manage
20:15:15 <frosch123> "load available" together with a timetables wait of 5 days
20:19:03 <leolrrj> frosch123: what means timetables wait of 5 days?
20:19:53 <frosch123> only set a time for "loading", not for "travel"
20:23:34 <tt_johannes> frosch123: the savegames are loaded simply as chunks, in SlLoadChunks() ?
20:25:40 <frosch123> { 'STNN', Save_STNN, Load_STNN, Ptrs_STNN, NULL, CH_ARRAY }, <- that line at the bottom of station_sl.cpp means that the "STNN" chunk is read by Load_STNN
20:27:58 <tt_johannes> frosch123: ok, clear
20:32:59 <argoneus> is there a reason savegames aren't simple structs?
20:35:56 <__ln__> because the representation of a struct in a file is platform-dependent.
20:39:01 <frosch123> the art of giving an absurd answer to an absurd question :)
20:39:03 <Alberth> you would need a different struct for each savegame version, which are 194 currently
20:40:14 <Alberth> probably there are few more than that
20:46:18 <tt_johannes> so all the information about stations is stored in globals?
20:46:31 <tt_johannes> in this case, the StationList variable?
20:46:53 <frosch123> it's stored in the Station pool
20:47:02 <frosch123> StationList sounds like a temporary thing
20:47:04 <argoneus> why is it an absurd question? o.o
20:47:08 <tt_johannes> the best thing I can see is that station_sl stores all the stuff in _station_desc
20:47:10 <argoneus> how much data is there in a savegame
20:47:18 <argoneus> the tilemap, companies, their stats..?
20:47:52 <frosch123> tt_johannes: it ends up in _station_pool, which you access by Station::Get(station_id)
20:48:38 <frosch123> and iteratate by FOR_ALL_STATIONS(st) {}
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20:49:02 <frosch123> argoneus: the correct question would have been: why is the savegame not stored in a self-describing format
20:50:30 <tt_johannes> frosch123: The loader only stores them in _station_desc... Where is the data from _station_desc transmitted to _station_pool?
20:51:31 <frosch123> tt_johannes: _station_desc is a static constant
20:51:42 <frosch123> SlObject(bst, waypoint ? _waypoint_desc : _station_desc); <- the data is stored in "bst"
20:52:38 <tt_johannes> frosch123: but bst looses scope... so where is the pointer remembered?
20:53:14 <frosch123> see the "index" parameter to the new operator
20:53:25 <frosch123> that index is the station-id
20:53:35 <argoneus> frosch123: well you can write and read structs trivially if you know their size
20:53:45 <argoneus> assuming they don't change much between patches
20:53:46 <frosch123> you can access it via the station pool, as written above
20:54:24 <frosch123> argoneus: you can jump into water easily, assuming you can swim
20:54:49 <frosch123> i still have trouble with giving absurd answers
20:55:14 <argoneus> frosch123: what exactly changes in a savegame between patches?
20:55:23 <argoneus> if you add a new feature or fix a bug a savefile shouldn't care about that
20:55:39 <tt_johannes> oh oh, I recall things like "new (x) y;", this was one of the complicated things of C++...
20:55:40 <argoneus> unless it's save-breaking somehow
20:56:11 <frosch123> tt_johannes: it's worse in this case :p
20:56:27 <frosch123> ignore the word "new" in that line
20:56:43 <frosch123> and just assume it gives you station "index"
20:57:24 <tt_johannes> frosch123: I must get it ... :P
20:57:43 <frosch123> tt_johannes: do you know "emplace" in c++11 containers?
20:57:43 <tt_johannes> where is that new thing described? how do I google that?
20:58:08 <frosch123> ok, openttd twists "new" in some dirty tricks to work like emplace
20:58:14 <frosch123> because ottd is older than c++11
20:58:41 <frosch123> "new (index) Station()" returns "_station_pool[index]", and initialises it
20:59:53 <tt_johannes> it says that "char* p = new('*') char[6];" creates an array of six chars, each initialized with a * ?
20:59:59 <frosch123> tt_johannes: src/core/pool_type.hpp: inline void *operator new(size_t size, size_t index)
21:00:36 <argoneus> I guess I can see why things are messy now :P
21:01:24 <frosch123> argoneus: really, when you have a frying pan made of plastic, the correct question is not "why is it not made of stone?"
21:02:31 <frosch123> you are complaining about how things were coded around 2000, and suggest to code them like one did in 1970
21:02:52 <tt_johannes> frosch123: ok, now I start getting that constructor thing .... :p
21:05:26 <tt_johannes> ok, so all the data is stored in pools...
21:05:54 <tt_johannes> now, what I actually wanted to do is making a graph of all the train lines....
21:06:38 <argoneus> frosch123: it doesn't have to be a struct, but it doesn't look complicated
21:06:44 <argoneus> just a unified format that's described somewhere...
21:07:01 <tt_johannes> I guess that can only be done with using the "implicit" stations? That's the best way to guess what routes my trains are taking?
21:08:34 <frosch123> FOR_ALL_STATIONS should give you the nodes
21:08:43 <frosch123> FOR_ALL_ORDERLISTS shuold give you the edges
21:08:57 <argoneus> I just don't see why you'd have to load a savegame in some mystical chunks when you need all of it anyway
21:10:02 <tt_johannes> great, many thanks!
21:10:54 <tt_johannes> from just grepping the source, I think openttd should still be compilable with non-c++11-compilers?
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21:11:16 <frosch123> currently it is compileable with both 98 and 11
21:11:21 <tt_johannes> and that won't change in the next months, right?
21:11:51 <frosch123> 1.5. does not compile with 11, or at least not without warngins
21:11:56 <frosch123> trunk compiles with both
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21:16:58 <V453000> good evening good sir
21:17:10 <V453000> may thee pixels obey your will
21:21:56 <argoneus> V453000: have you ever made 3d porn
21:22:22 <argoneus> I like your optimism
21:22:44 <V453000> I like how you are asking for a friend
21:23:01 <argoneus> andythenorth: link? for a friend
21:23:10 <andythenorth> nah, long since removed
21:23:15 <V453000> yeah my friends suddenly raised their attention as well
21:23:38 <argoneus> that feel when you will never make porn because you can't draw
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21:23:56 <argoneus> andythenorth you will know
21:24:05 <argoneus> do porn artists get pleasure out of their own works?
21:24:09 <V453000> I don't think you are unable to make pron just because you can't draw
21:24:15 <argoneus> or would that be similar to incest
21:24:23 <andythenorth> I feel the conversation here has taken a dive
21:24:25 <V453000> I think most of 3D shit comes from asia
21:24:31 <argoneus> it's because you mentioned flash porn
21:24:34 <V453000> so I wouldn't be surprised about anything
21:24:44 <argoneus> V453000: the quality of it is crap though
21:24:53 <argoneus> the devs and artists barely get paid anything and they have tight deadlines
21:25:00 <V453000> can't say I am a large scale consumer of that. XD
21:25:04 <argoneus> it doesn't sell much apparently
21:25:18 <argoneus> if you decide to do 3d porn, don't expect to profit off it
21:25:41 <V453000> still, I bet if it's good it makes shitload of money
21:25:44 <argoneus> you can draw comics though
21:25:46 <V453000> esp with some VR and devices and stuff
21:26:01 <argoneus> VR might boost the sales a lot
21:26:06 <V453000> if the "gameplay" is good, ... :)
21:26:14 <argoneus> a friend of mine would surely buy one if he had the money
21:26:57 <argoneus> V453000 will you get an oculus rift
21:27:04 <argoneus> with your factoriodosh
21:27:11 <argoneus> it only costs 800 euro
21:28:02 <V453000> I respect the technology, but I do not really like detaching myself from the reality completely. I like staring at a screen or whatever, but putting goggles with headphones on my head to be completely fucked and disconnected sounds to me like going way too far. And I would consider myself as far from a "normal person"
21:28:24 <andythenorth> also it currently makes lots of people sick
21:28:32 <andythenorth> some people are susceptible, some are not
21:28:40 <andythenorth> possibly depends how good your ears at balance
21:28:46 <andythenorth> or something similar
21:28:48 <argoneus> it's just motion sickness
21:28:50 <argoneus> it's not VR sickness
21:29:03 <V453000> which is another hm thing
21:29:09 <andythenorth> it’s motion sickness, but eh, you’re not moving? o_O
21:29:14 <andythenorth> so inverse motion sickness?
21:29:23 <V453000> but if I had no wife and money to spare, I would probably buy it just to try the pron XD
21:29:50 * argoneus throws the mature V453000 that doesn't want to detach himself from reality into the trash
21:30:25 <V453000> even though I do not think it is perfectly fine to live with virtual/over-sexualized ideas either
21:30:39 <argoneus> people have had fantasies since forever
21:31:14 <V453000> it's always about perception and how the individual handles it in their head
21:31:25 <argoneus> I'd rather have sheltered neckbeards who get off to virtual girls than people who commit heinous crimes on the street
21:31:42 <V453000> heh well, that is kind of obvious :P
21:31:57 <planetmaker> long live the matrix
21:32:00 <argoneus> but yeah I see where you are going
21:32:10 <argoneus> people have died of starvation playing world of warcraft
21:32:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: motion sickness is about discrepancies between what you see and movement that you feel. While a car is moving you are sitting still
21:32:14 <argoneus> let alone if they immerse themselves fully
21:32:22 <argoneus> it shouldn't be an issue with moderation though
21:32:37 <andythenorth> Alberth…but your ears are moving
21:32:39 <V453000> it is all very relative :)
21:32:41 <argoneus> I can't wait for someone to stop eating and die playing VR stuff and then they will have to shut down
21:32:46 <andythenorth> but do you know?
21:32:49 <andythenorth> if there’s no acceleration...
21:33:04 <V453000> argoneus: I am talking more about the psychological side of things rather than you would die because you do not do XYZ
21:33:07 <andythenorth> argoneus: “I can’t wait for” :P
21:33:15 <andythenorth> does not come across well in irc :P
21:33:20 <Alberth> in space there is also no reference point to see you're moving :p
21:33:21 <andythenorth> “I wish someone would die"
21:33:32 <argoneus> or however to call it
21:33:34 <Alberth> but yeah, you'd get sick too, I think
21:33:49 <argoneus> but it's a common thing
21:33:59 <argoneus> when someone shoots up a school they always blame videogames
21:34:16 <argoneus> as if it wasn't bad enough already :(
21:34:31 <argoneus> VR might take it to the next level
21:34:37 <argoneus> I actually never thought about this, thanks V453000 for the nightmare fuel
21:34:37 <V453000> well yeah that is another thing
21:34:56 <argoneus> I never thought about people immersing themselves so much they can't tell reality apart
21:35:01 <argoneus> it probably will happen won't it
21:35:08 <V453000> that is not really what I meant
21:35:13 <argoneus> what did you mean then fuck :D
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21:36:19 <V453000> In specific what I was talking about is that when you watch porn (a lot), some people often tend to expect women to be over-sexualized and do not appreciate "normal" women, it changes their expectations and requirements. What I meant was that VR could make this even more noticeable/dangerous
21:37:15 <V453000> of course it matters how the person perceives it and how they handle it in their head
21:37:30 <V453000> but I believe such effect is there on average / in general
21:37:46 <argoneus> watching porn has made me appreciate "normal" women more
21:37:55 <argoneus> porn actors are disgusting to me for some reason
21:38:09 <argoneus> it all feels fake and staged
21:38:11 <V453000> I honestly have no clue what influence it had on me, I did not make that study :P
21:38:20 <andythenorth> V453000: you have no control group :D
21:38:27 <V453000> but just considering what effects would VR have
21:38:34 <V453000> andythenorth: control group? :D
21:38:51 <argoneus> V453000: people who don't watch porn
21:38:57 <andythenorth> you’d need at least two V453000s
21:39:00 <andythenorth> and that’s one too many
21:39:41 <V453000> I didn't say I boycott it 100%
21:40:08 <argoneus> looking at who makes porn games
21:40:14 <argoneus> the VR experience will probably be anime girls
21:40:20 <argoneus> im not sure how I feel about this
21:40:32 <V453000> anime feels wtf weird to me in general so ye
21:41:05 <argoneus> I like my chinese cartoons but I wouldn't obsess over it
21:41:11 <argoneus> it's just a story someone wrote
21:42:34 <frosch123> V453000: maybe continue with hentai then
21:42:47 <frosch123> you know negative * negative = positive ?
21:43:14 <V453000> not sure it applies anywhere XD
21:44:14 <V453000> does hentai always mean tentacle shit?
21:44:25 <V453000> or the drawn crap in geneal?
21:44:56 <argoneus> it's generally japanese drawn porn
21:45:04 <argoneus> doesn't matter if it's moving or has tentacles or whatever
21:45:20 <V453000> well I don't get any of the drawn stuff in general
21:45:38 <argoneus> it's generally common fantasies
21:45:44 <argoneus> that you can't really explore otherwise
21:45:55 <argoneus> I mean, if they wanted something realistic they wouldn't need to draw it, right
21:46:09 <V453000> well yeah that is understandable, but the visual style is really repulsive to me
21:46:10 <argoneus> it's not rocket science
21:46:22 <argoneus> that's just japs for you
21:46:53 <argoneus> I kinda like the art
21:46:56 <argoneus> some animes even have a decent plot
21:47:01 <argoneus> (as opposed to "plot")
21:47:18 <argoneus> I watch western stuff too
21:47:33 <frosch123> V453000: if you say, you are a "haptic" person, it sounds cooler
21:47:36 <argoneus> if people don't like it can't blame them :P
21:47:38 <V453000> but looking at a for-children-like cartoon which should turn me on, is WTF
21:47:52 <V453000> won't ask what means haptic
21:47:53 <argoneus> I have bad news for you :D
21:48:00 <V453000> argoneus: visual style..
21:48:28 <frosch123> i am pretty sure someone wrote oni the forums that NUTS looks like it is for kids
21:48:51 <V453000> do they jack off to it as well?
21:49:05 <argoneus> V453000: there's some popular gorey/mature anime
21:49:12 <argoneus> where their eyes don't take half their face
21:49:20 <argoneus> it's just stylization
21:50:11 <argoneus> when someone says anime most people imagine the schoolgirl moeshit
21:50:18 <argoneus> where they do retarded shit that's supposed to be cute
21:50:29 <V453000> yeah cute except with dicks XDD
21:51:10 <argoneus> as weird as it may seem
21:51:12 <argoneus> some people are into that :(
21:51:34 <V453000> well don't judge :) that i do not understand it does not mean I am against anybody doing it
21:51:40 <V453000> people are weird, especially in this area.
21:51:50 <argoneus> everyone is weird :P
21:52:05 <argoneus> I'm sure if we went deep enough we'd find fucked up stuff inside you
21:53:29 <argoneus> many of my friends who hated everything eastern eventually found an anime they actually liked
21:54:25 <argoneus> it's an absurdly huge set of different genres
21:56:17 <argoneus> saying "anime sucks" is like saying "movies suck"
21:58:52 <frosch123> but, movies do suck?
22:00:11 <argoneus> frosch123: that's pretty rude ok
22:00:19 <argoneus> I bet you don't even store your movies in a struct
22:00:57 <frosch123> just as much as eddi stores his ottd savegames in a struct
22:01:27 <argoneus> I still don't get why you had to be so condescending :(
22:01:31 <argoneus> what did I do to you frosch friend
22:01:56 <argoneus> instead of a simple "no that's stupid" I got a bunch of weird analogies
22:03:18 <frosch123> you were approaching the singularity
22:03:58 * andythenorth is highly singular
22:04:03 <V453000> if you expect everybody to be "weird", defining what is "rude" is pretty tough
22:04:40 <argoneus> frosch123: then at least riddle me this
22:04:45 <argoneus> why do saves break inbetween patches?
22:04:54 <argoneus> is there no spec for savegame structure?
22:05:42 <V453000> pathes are shit, go watch tetris porn
22:06:57 <frosch123> savegame format version 1: amount of money, amount of trains, amount of ships. savegame saved as: 234984, 421, 0
22:07:29 <frosch123> savegame format version 2: new feature "roadvehicles" -> format: amount of rv, amount of money, amount of trains, amount of ships
22:07:40 <andythenorth> all the things I don’t buy on ebay
22:07:47 <frosch123> loading of old save -> 234984 road vehicles, 421 money, 0 trains, crash
22:07:58 <argoneus> frosch123: I get this, that makes sense
22:08:09 <argoneus> but if it breaks even inbetween bugfix patches
22:08:23 <argoneus> where no feature that has to be saved in savegame is added
22:08:53 <argoneus> at least that's what I understood before
22:09:07 <frosch123> you do realize that ottd 1.5.3 does not only load 1.5.2 savegames? but also 0.0.1 saves?
22:09:22 <argoneus> well, I can't say I've tried
22:09:53 <argoneus> I was basing it off you telling the guy that he shouldn't even try parsing the savegames himself
22:09:58 <argoneus> which sounded like the format was somehow very weird
22:10:02 <frosch123> and that you would have to create a new titlescreen from scratch, if every feature broke the savegame format
22:10:03 <argoneus> and changed all the time
22:10:34 <frosch123> argoneus: yes, there are 195 savegame versions in 10 years
22:10:47 <frosch123> isn't that pretty much "all the time"?
22:11:03 <planetmaker> and every major patch has its own unique version incompatible with any official format
22:11:19 <argoneus> a new savegame version every 18 days
22:11:22 <planetmaker> as it adds something to the savegame, as it stores something additional
22:11:54 <argoneus> I thought it was like every half a year or so
22:12:37 <argoneus> seems like it'd be quicker to just download the source for the version you want, and make it save relevant info about the map to another file when it loads a map
22:12:42 <frosch123> there were 50 version between 0.5.0 and 0.6.0
22:12:59 <frosch123> compared to 6 between 1.4.0 and 1.5.0
22:13:12 <frosch123> and 0 between 1.5.0 and 1.6.0 :p
22:13:18 <argoneus> wait, does something like cargodist warrant a new savegame format?
22:13:25 <argoneus> oh wait, every savegame has all the game settings stored on it
22:13:59 <argoneus> putting all this into perspective
22:14:04 <argoneus> "just put it in a struct" is probably ignorant :P
22:14:36 <andythenorth> adding a manganese cargo, got a way to dig it up and export it
22:14:46 <andythenorth> but no way to use process it into anything useful
22:15:05 <frosch123> is manganee produced by the paper mill?
22:16:06 <andythenorth> coincidentally not
22:19:12 <frosch123> i think it is used in cheap tooth fillings
22:19:16 <V453000> is actually called mangan in czech yeah XD
22:20:11 <V453000> jesus christ andythenorth don't we have enough rock-type cargoes which look the same fucking gray-ish way to draw already
22:20:43 <V453000> /me drops 100% FIRS support for NUTS cause this is derailing XD
22:21:13 <argoneus> "andythenorth and others"
22:21:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: remove fruits, add bananas and tomatoes instead
22:21:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: I do like bananas and tomatos
22:21:41 <andythenorth> they are some of my favourite fruits
22:21:53 *** kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK
22:21:55 <V453000> except tomatoes are vegetable
22:21:56 <argoneus> andythenorth: FIRS has nice art
22:21:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: and they are visually distinguishable
22:22:10 <argoneus> FIRS art suits openttd
22:22:24 <andythenorth> green apples also?
22:22:31 <V453000> argoneus wait for BRIX :>
22:22:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: can you make alcohol from bananas?
22:22:40 <argoneus> that sounds unhealthy
22:22:49 <andythenorth> V453000 are you going to do BRIX-style sprites for all of FIRS?
22:22:53 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58
22:22:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can make alcohol even from hazelnut
22:23:02 <argoneus> weren't you making something like that already?
22:23:10 <argoneus> I remember you linking some ground textures
22:23:22 <andythenorth> is it elephants get drunk on fermenting bananas?
22:23:25 <V453000> haha my threats are coming more realistic now? :P
22:23:28 <andythenorth> and smash houses?
22:23:39 <V453000> BRIX shall wreck shit
22:23:46 <frosch123> no, those are other fruits
22:24:03 <argoneus> V453000 you have some interesting naming schemes
22:24:04 <frosch123> but yes, elephants instead of regular livestock is also good
22:24:05 <V453000> in soviet transport, brix shit you
22:24:20 <argoneus> aren't you about running out of 4 letter names?
22:24:39 <V453000> NUTS YETI CATS RAWR DOOM GEAR RIDE BRIX
22:24:58 <Alberth> argoneus: ever calculated how many 4 letter names exist?
22:25:08 <frosch123> what is GEAR and RIDE?
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22:25:21 <argoneus> ZALX is not a valid name
22:25:31 <V453000> GEAR is a train set I will make one day, RIDE was a RV set I started making models for, but now I will use them in BRIX
22:25:35 <argoneus> it has to be an actual word ok
22:25:39 <Alberth> yeah, very nontrivial indeed :)
22:25:56 <argoneus> your calculation produces XXXX as valid
22:25:59 <argoneus> I don't want porn in my openttd
22:26:12 <V453000> train porn not good enough?
22:26:28 <V453000> btw BRIX Realism is XXXX
22:26:33 <argoneus> V453000: you should make a mod
22:26:43 <argoneus> Completely Universal New Trains
22:26:46 <V453000> OMG HE CALLED NEWGRFS A MOD
22:27:03 <V453000> NUTS sequel will be GEAR
22:27:06 <frosch123> only dorpsgek can make mods
22:27:08 <Alberth> hope you can sleep despite
22:39:07 <andythenorth> maybe Steel Mill should accept manganese not scrap metal
22:39:18 <andythenorth> or maybe there should be ’steel mill inputs yard'
22:39:24 <andythenorth> which makes ‘steel mill supplies’ o_O
22:40:03 <supermop> make iron first then make steel out of that?
22:40:35 <andythenorth> what’s the chain?
22:41:54 <argoneus> andythenorth: what about uranium
22:43:13 <andythenorth> problem is boringly low production amounts
22:43:26 <andythenorth> uranium, diamonds, gold, coltan, other rare earths
22:43:49 <andythenorth> not a lot of challenge
22:44:17 <argoneus> you can bring uranium to nuclear plants
22:44:20 <argoneus> and then bring waste to the ocean
22:45:32 <Alberth> at 1 wagon every year?
22:45:56 <argoneus> make the price spike
22:46:06 <argoneus> what's wrong with having ultra-rare resources :o
22:46:52 <andythenorth> nothing, but it’s boring to transport
22:47:13 <andythenorth> the game (as I play it) works best with 100t-1000t industry outputs
22:47:26 <andythenorth> that creates enough traffic chaos to keep routing challenging
22:49:19 <argoneus> the game should be fun
22:49:58 * andythenorth learns about steel alloys
22:56:38 <andythenorth> maybe FIRS needs a total rethink
22:56:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: 128 cargos?
22:57:21 <andythenorth> 9 input, 6 output per industry?
22:58:42 <argoneus> andythenorth: might as well play factorio
22:59:15 <andythenorth> does factorio have other metals added to steel for steel alloys?
22:59:32 <argoneus> in vanilla you just burn iron ore into iron
22:59:36 <argoneus> and then burn iron into steel
22:59:53 <argoneus> there are mods that make it complex af
23:00:03 <argoneus> but it adds tedium in my experience
23:12:45 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:13:10 <argoneus> why does everyone leave irc when they go bed
continue to next day ⏵
