IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-01-16
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00:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2*890*sqrt(2)
00:00:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2517.30014102
00:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 890*sqrt(2)
00:00:27 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1258.65007051
00:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 870*sqrt(2)
00:00:37 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1230.36579926
00:01:34 <argoneus> bleh, visual studio can't into makefiles
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01:13:16 <drac_boy> been quite a while heh....anyone up to anything interesting grf-wise? :)
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02:03:50 <drac_boy> mm going upstairs for now...perhaps tomorrow
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10:48:10 <Wolf01> bah... the Venice-Mestre tram now derails on curved tracks... I'm still of the opinion that a trolleybus was really better for the roads we have here :|
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13:17:27 <andythenorth> cat plays monopoly?
13:19:08 <Wolf01> no, but it play risk for sure
13:21:05 <Wolf01> ah, andy, yesterday I purchased again the 42009 and 42030 :>
13:28:34 <Alberth> /me orders extra containers to catch all brix
13:35:08 <andythenorth> Wolf01: 42009 really? o_O
13:35:12 <andythenorth> for parts or to build?
13:35:23 <argoneus> have you guys ever used a shared_ptr?
13:35:52 <andythenorth> I didn’t build the crane from 42009
13:36:03 <andythenorth> my kids wanted the B model
13:37:15 <Wolf01> I want to build the b model first, then I'll use them to build a backhoe loader
13:37:29 <andythenorth> the B model is quite good, there is nothing else in technic like it
13:37:42 <andythenorth> but mine shredded a gear inside the boom
13:37:46 <andythenorth> and I cba to fix it
13:38:42 <Wolf01> I think the volvo loader is a bit too big, so I'll order both the front and rear pieces from bricklink
13:41:28 <argoneus> Alberth: I can't find a usecase
13:42:15 <andythenorth> mostly because it’s really simple, and perfomative
13:42:25 <Alberth> shared pointers are a bit meh, and should be avoided if possible
13:42:47 <Wolf01> yeah, too bad I missed that one :(
13:43:01 <Alberth> basically if yo need them, you have an ownership problem with your objects
13:43:22 <V453000> fuck we are back at lego again
13:43:26 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it’s an easy build from parts :)
13:43:43 <andythenorth> V453000: between that and toy trains, my pixel days are over, eh?
13:43:47 <Alberth> V: do we ever not talk about lego? :)
13:44:11 <Wolf01> andy, it is, but I miss the excavator and the loader pieces :P
13:45:01 <Wolf01> yes, that's what I'm doing
13:45:03 <andythenorth> I dunno, the Lego foamers on forums get excited about 27 million power functions, gearboxes, or whatever
13:45:12 <andythenorth> but I like the simple models with direct control over functions best
13:46:00 <Wolf01> I like them too, but they are impractical when on the stand where you need to do some show for kids
13:46:08 <Wolf01> so power functions come handy
13:47:00 <argoneus> Alberth: the only thing I could think of was thread stuff, if multiple threads need access to an object which should then die
13:47:07 <argoneus> but im not sure if they are thread safe
13:47:10 <Wolf01> and sbrick comes more handy, 2 volvo loaders, a truck and a caterpillar all moving together loading and carrying candies to kids
13:47:35 <Alberth> argoneus: they are not, unless you take care of it
13:47:58 <Alberth> threads are hardly ever the solution, in my experience
13:49:08 <Alberth> in my case, I had a bunch of objects that were created, and then given away and used (read-only) to other parts of the code, where it was not clear when the last owner was done with it.
13:50:01 <argoneus> Alberth: shouldn't you pass a non owning ptr in that case though?
13:50:11 <argoneus> and keep it uniquely in the host
13:50:23 <Alberth> perhaps, but how do you decide nobody uses it then?
13:50:54 <Alberth> my objects were all "use once"
13:51:06 <Alberth> but at various points in the code
13:51:21 <Alberth> eg like messages that you distribute
13:54:28 <argoneus> what usecase is there for pointers in general?
13:54:38 <argoneus> I read somewhere that either when the object is heavy or if you need to defer initialization
13:54:48 <argoneus> otherwise make it on the stack and pass references
13:55:03 <Alberth> references cannot be null
13:55:21 <Alberth> ie pointers can express "there is no information"
13:55:36 <argoneus> hm, that makes sense I guess
13:55:47 <argoneus> if a function requires std::list<int>&
13:55:59 <argoneus> I can't say I've tried this
13:56:07 <Alberth> but in modern C++, the need for pointers is highly reduced, you can write most code without ever using a pointer explicitly
13:56:31 <Alberth> no, a reference needs a proper object
13:56:56 <Alberth> you can cast stuff to convince the compiler, but it won't do much good
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14:12:05 <andythenorth> eh? disconnected :P
14:13:56 <andythenorth> eh, I just don’t much like this new FIRS economy
14:14:07 <andythenorth> you have to build your own industries
14:14:19 <andythenorth> maybe I shouldn’t play that with Busy Bee :P
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14:31:55 <frosch123> argoneus: think of a shared_ptr as something multiple things need access to, and it is unknown when they are finished
14:32:42 <frosch123> for example a signal/slot thingie in qt or whatever
14:32:57 <frosch123> something can trigger it, others register to it
14:33:20 <frosch123> when receivers are destroyed they need to unregister, similar when the sender is destroyed
14:33:50 <frosch123> so, all of them need to know when each of them is destroyed, and this "still exists" information is shared between them
14:34:56 <frosch123> another example: your browser downloads a zip file with a pdf in it. you want to open it with a pdf viewer, thus the browser extracts the zip to a temporary location
14:35:29 <frosch123> when to delete that temporary location? answer: when all instances of pdf viewers accessing that files exit, and when the reference from the broweser download list is removed
14:35:50 <frosch123> funnily shared_ptrs do not exist for windows file systems
14:36:02 <frosch123> at least in times i was still using windows
14:39:11 <frosch123> argoneus: so mostly, you need shared_ptrs when programming generically, and you do not know in advance what stuff will be used for, and in what order it will be used
14:50:46 <argoneus> modern c++ actually doesn't look that terrible
14:50:50 <argoneus> it's extremely verbose though
14:50:58 <argoneus> and I don't get why you need ownership, why just refcount isn't enough
14:52:40 <Alberth> those are different concepts
14:53:06 <argoneus> okay let me rephrase
14:53:08 <Alberth> ownership is about deciding who can access the data, and more importantly, who can change it
14:53:21 <argoneus> a non-owning pointer can change data too, no?
14:53:43 <argoneus> the only thing it can't do is delete the data
14:53:55 <argoneus> but you don't generally delete pointers inside random functions
14:54:03 <argoneus> that's usually up to the destructor
14:54:58 <argoneus> so why does it matter which pointer is the "master" pointer and isn't it just simple refcount?
14:54:58 <Alberth> although if you pass data for processing, it's quite normal to discard it after being done with it
14:56:02 <Alberth> so you can give away the object to anyone, and everybody can write in it as they like?
14:56:12 <Alberth> how do you keep consistency?
14:56:36 <argoneus> well, you can give away non-owning pointers and they can write in it anyway
14:56:44 <Alberth> I may have used some value to base a other computations on, but then someone else changes those values
14:56:51 <Alberth> making my computation invalid
14:57:32 <Alberth> yes, ownership is not about the technical ability to write, it's about a set of agreements how to behave
14:57:46 <Alberth> just like the irc channel
14:57:59 <Alberth> we can all type here at the same time, yet we don't
14:58:12 <Alberth> we have an informal set of agreements on how to use the channel
14:58:34 <argoneus> so ownership mostly tells me "okay this function is the one supposed to modify this value" and other pointers can just receive or work with the value but shouldn't be intrusive?
14:58:36 <Alberth> that's ownership, imho
14:59:08 <Alberth> you want to have clear at all times who can read what and who can write what
14:59:28 <Alberth> the easiest solution is to have one owner that handles writing
14:59:36 <Alberth> ie the owner of the object
14:59:45 <Alberth> that is thus a very common pattern
15:00:22 <Alberth> you can invent other patterns, and that's fine, they are just different form of ownerships, different sets of agreement
15:01:18 <Alberth> refcount is just that nobody deletes the object while you still have it. However, technically, the refcount has no meaning without the ownership agreement that everybody uses the refcount rules
15:02:07 <Wolf01> mmmh 254MB free on the disk
15:02:30 <Alberth> E_TOO_MUCH_LEGO_STACKED_ON_DISK
15:02:44 <Wolf01> no, too much D&D stacked on disk
15:03:04 <Alberth> it's not lego, can't be interesting :p
15:03:25 <argoneus> hm, I guess I get the point kinda
15:03:59 <Wolf01> I think I'll go play with lego while it's moving the stuff in the ext drive
15:04:33 <argoneus> try not to step on it
15:04:49 <Alberth> 245mb is a lot of text, it would take a few hours to fill that :p
15:05:34 <Alberth> oh, bloaty wrapper crap... pdf2text? :)
15:05:56 <argoneus> looking at some code though, christ
15:06:01 <argoneus> I remember people laughing at java for being too verbose
15:06:08 <argoneus> and then there's c++11 code
15:06:22 <Wolf01> I need the tables and the images, also not everything is recognized by OCR
15:06:34 <argoneus> Alberth: there's container declarations almost longer than 80 cols
15:06:52 <argoneus> or, well, there can be
15:07:03 <Alberth> unlike Java, you can use typedef in c++ :)
15:07:27 <argoneus> I can typedef a map to something more readable
15:07:45 <Alberth> I do that all the time
15:08:06 <frosch123> argoneus: you need to avoid reference cycles
15:08:19 <argoneus> typedef is a compiler, not a preprocessor token
15:08:22 <Alberth> and if you have a smart compiler, it even folds your typedef back in the error messages
15:08:24 <frosch123> not everything can be a ref-counting pointer, else A refers to B, B to C and C to A
15:09:06 <Alberth> frosch123: just like shapes with at least 2 eyes in Go, they live forever :)
15:09:08 <argoneus> well, I guess it's time to give C++ a try again
15:09:17 <argoneus> any of you guys used CLion by chance?
15:09:24 <argoneus> or are you mostly linux peeps
15:09:48 <Alberth> mostly unix, except apple-unix
15:32:47 <V453000> why do cantliever and tubular pillar sprites have 2 versions per direction? XD
15:32:56 <V453000> the sprites in original base set do not even have any difference
15:35:57 <Alberth> the original author is not here, and even if he was, he would probably not remember why :)
15:36:30 <V453000> well yeah but couldn't we make openttd use them differently if they are the same in all so-far-made base sets?
15:39:26 <frosch123> V453000: did you try bridge lengths 4,5,6,7 ?
15:39:34 <frosch123> they have different parts in the middle
15:53:08 <V453000> for some wtf reason it always is pillar n 1
15:53:28 <V453000> reason is hard to find because both of the sprites are 100% the same
15:53:38 <V453000> tried with original base set, but I bet ogfx does the same
15:54:53 <frosch123> V453000: the original baseset has double pillars
15:55:07 <frosch123> maybe it is important wrt. whether to draw pillars at the bridge start/end
15:55:23 <V453000> but the sprite is the same
15:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the 404 is very... escher
15:55:33 <frosch123> i..e sprite 2527 draws a pillar at the south border, but 2528 does not
15:55:39 <V453000> double pillars are not for tubular or cantliever
15:55:56 <frosch123> still, the sprites are associated to tiles
15:56:03 <frosch123> what tile do those sprites belong to
15:56:23 <frosch123> the northern tile may not draw a pillar at the north border (bridge end)
15:56:38 <frosch123> and the soutern tile may not draw a pillar at the south border (other brdige end)
15:56:57 <V453000> both of the sprites are still identical ._.
15:57:15 <frosch123> thus, if start/end of the bridge are not identical to the other tiles, there must be a different sprite at least at one end of thje bridge
15:57:24 <frosch123> V453000: but maybe different offsets?
15:57:38 <Mazur> Yeah, you gotta watch out for those brdige ends, they can cause havoc.
15:57:42 <frosch123> mabye 2528 is offseted so that it is drawn over the 2527 form the other tile
15:57:49 <V453000> sure but does that change anything?
15:58:08 <frosch123> V453000: ah, i get it
15:58:16 <V453000> ah you mean offset somewhere in game code, not in nml
15:58:18 <frosch123> the thing is: OTTD got smarter around 1.1 or something
15:58:30 <frosch123> it now cuts the sprites in the middle and draws the pilars in different lengths
15:58:42 <frosch123> you may need to use an older ottd version to see the difference
16:00:32 <frosch123> while newer ottd cuts the pillar sprite in the middle to create two fake sprites
16:00:32 <V453000> suspended bridges work differently
16:00:35 <V453000> they do not have this wtf
16:00:38 <V453000> only cantliever and tubular
16:01:26 <frosch123> i would expect sprite 2527 to have a pillar in the south, while sprite 2528 should be empty
16:02:49 <V453000> it is just weird shit. :)
16:03:44 <V453000> esp if the difference is not visible in any graphics atm (hence would not break anything)
16:03:49 <V453000> esp if the difference is not visible in any graphics atm (hence would not break anything)
16:05:39 <frosch123> that change is definitely NewBridges stuff :p
16:05:49 <frosch123> nothing for a baseset
16:06:01 <V453000> but it is just swapping 2 identical sprites...
16:06:05 <frosch123> also you change does not work
16:06:24 <V453000> I do not mean on side of newgrf or base set, on openttd side
16:06:24 <frosch123> as said: the most northern tile and most southern tile must draw different sprites
16:06:36 <frosch123> else you have a stall pillar at one end of the brdige
16:06:40 <V453000> k but cant the game take those from the same image?
16:07:10 <frosch123> what you try to achieve does not work with 2 sprites, you would need 4
16:07:11 <V453000> and use the second image for something useful?
16:07:20 <V453000> ok :D lets leave it at that
16:07:20 <andythenorth> hmm, all my industries need to be cartoon-ish, like the copper refinery? o-O
16:07:29 <frosch123> the second image is already used for something useful
16:07:40 <frosch123> namely to not have a stall pillar at the bridge end
16:08:10 <V453000> yes that I understand now
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16:30:30 <supermop> andythenorth: agave in firs?
16:31:29 <supermop> plant fibers, sugar, alcohol, fruit, or some selection thereof?
16:31:42 <supermop> alright i quit my job
16:34:29 <supermop> trying to draw a little agave/maguey sprite that could replace a cactus and show up on a plantation
16:35:09 <supermop> i just got back from a week and a half in mexico, and had lots of mexcal and pulque
16:35:21 <argoneus> some teacher from my uni just told me he's impressed with my iOS skills
16:35:26 <argoneus> ...I've never done anything with iOS
16:35:47 <supermop> argoneus: did he see you using an iphone?
16:35:57 <argoneus> supermop: I've never owned or even touched a single apple product
16:36:04 <Alberth> so either he has very low standards, or he wants something from you :p
16:36:11 <argoneus> he posted some sort of programming quiz on our school's fb group
16:36:14 <argoneus> and I filled it because I was bored
16:36:21 <argoneus> and I guess he assumes I know iOS from my responses
16:36:36 <Alberth> you mean there are other systems???
16:36:40 <supermop> well you probably could figure out how to use an ipad, and maybee that's all he wants
16:36:51 <argoneus> it's a teacher at my uni who teaches iOS
16:37:09 <supermop> needs seed funnding and/or cheap devs
16:37:20 <argoneus> probably the latter lmao
16:37:52 <argoneus> what is seed funding actually
16:38:21 <Alberth> you talking about him at random places
16:39:03 <supermop> andythenorth: agave could replace sugar cane in arid areas, but unfortunately any map with a desert will also have tropics, so maybe pointless
16:39:27 * andythenorth needs a manor house type building or similar
16:39:48 <supermop> but mezcal is good and agave plants would look cute in arid inland mountains
16:39:58 <andythenorth> where can I steal a sprite from
16:40:06 <supermop> i guess in tropic all mountains are rainforests
16:40:30 <supermop> andythenorth: french? colonial? english? spanish?
16:40:49 <andythenorth> has to work for any
16:40:59 <andythenorth> generic mediterranean style
16:41:27 <supermop> i guess generic Mediterranean would fit the most number of wine producing areas
16:41:41 <andythenorth> maybe I can adapt the grain mill
16:41:57 <supermop> lots of guys in napa valley build med. style houses
16:42:39 <supermop> should look more stately than coffee one
16:42:52 <drac_boy> if I had to pick an existing phone-ready mobile os..hm well..I would have had to say android
16:42:54 <supermop> they've got to put in on the bottle lable!
16:42:55 <drac_boy> to our own on that tho
16:43:03 <andythenorth> supermop: agreed
16:43:23 <supermop> do you have a wine with a house on the label at hand?
16:43:46 <supermop> all of mine here have modernist or hipstery designs on them
16:44:24 <supermop> i kind of tired of french wine though, and only have s. american and australian
16:45:45 <Alberth> it casts lots of $$$, it must be good?
16:46:13 <supermop> more italian ones are less symmetrical
16:46:40 <supermop> ideally, base set would have a mansion, and you would just reference that
16:46:55 <supermop> and then region specific house sets could replace it
16:47:14 <supermop> so you could get a manor in the style of whatever house set you use
16:49:09 <supermop> just use the grain mill for now
17:00:00 <andythenorth> maybe I should worry less about the buildings
17:00:04 <andythenorth> and more about the vines
17:00:07 <andythenorth> currently it uses trees :P
17:00:47 <supermop> can make wine out of apples
17:01:02 <supermop> most people would call it cider though
17:02:39 <andythenorth> so now I have a feature for FIRS 2.0: ‘removed Heart of Darkness’ economy
17:02:41 <drac_boy> apple + glass = food :)
17:02:45 <andythenorth> and no replacement :(
17:07:13 <andythenorth> anyone prepared to play test FIRS for me?
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17:22:36 <andythenorth> it’s got a ‘post-colonial’ idea that 50% of the industries aren’t available at map gen
17:22:47 <andythenorth> I think that’s dumb for gameplay, and I’m about to scrap it :P
17:23:50 <Alberth> that's a new experience for industry sets :)
17:24:11 <andythenorth> or 50% of industries missing :P
17:30:26 <supermop> andythenorth: is this in nightly?
17:30:41 <andythenorth> yea, but I am changing it :P
17:31:16 <andythenorth> we only have RHS “ chars in game :P
17:31:23 <andythenorth> partial smart quote?
17:31:47 <supermop> four agaves per tile or 16?
17:32:53 <andythenorth> really there’s no char for LH quote mark? :o
17:32:58 <supermop> also do farms control the animation of crops? or does it alwas take the same amount of time for a tile to mature?
17:33:21 <supermop> i guess non-grain fields can't be real fields so doesn't matter
17:36:06 * andythenorth wonders if the char is present in original baseset font
17:37:55 <andythenorth> eh, the in-game license viewer uses plain " chars
17:38:15 <andythenorth> maybe there's a way :(
17:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what font do you use?
17:42:17 * andythenorth cuts out the post-colonial history lesson from FIRS
17:42:19 <andythenorth> definitely better
17:52:51 <drac_boy> going eat now so bye :)
18:06:26 <andythenorth> anyone feel like doing a West African town names grf?
18:09:20 <Alberth> pop up a warning "no west-african town names detected" whenever you start firs :p
18:12:14 <andythenorth> how hard is a town names grf?
18:12:19 * andythenorth doesn't want another project :P
18:22:06 <Alberth> find a list of names, wrap some blurb text around it, throw it at nml, done
18:25:45 <Alberth> for advanced uses, you can have a sequence of parts, eg common suffixes
18:26:04 <Alberth> or common prefixes, or both
18:26:54 <Alberth> ie action F without the stupid limits :p
18:33:00 <andythenorth> so I have 330 names :P
18:33:09 * andythenorth should read some dutchtowns code
19:01:32 * andythenorth wonders why FIRS didn't build :|
19:22:06 <andythenorth> "that's not valid python"
19:24:56 <supermop> damn it i am halfway across this 1024 map and i've only got the bronx part of my pelham line done
19:28:08 <supermop> that's with making everything short and stubby too
19:35:07 <supermop> going to get lunch first
19:37:53 * andythenorth not sure about iron ore
19:38:08 <andythenorth> it's already in 2 other economies, and I've got a possible Australian economy in mind, where it will be needed
19:38:20 * andythenorth considers uranium
19:38:27 <andythenorth> there was some reason I didn't want to do that before :P
19:38:32 <andythenorth> can't remember it
19:38:35 <supermop> idk iron seems to be a bit of a big deal
19:39:07 <supermop> perennial favorite with people for the last 10-20 thousnd years
19:40:30 <supermop> i always thought that the issue with nuclear fuel in game was less anything political, and more, so little of it gets moved around so seldomly
19:41:01 <supermop> no fun to refuel a power plant with a 1-car train once every 2 years
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19:42:19 <supermop> without electricity in game you can't even rationalize that as a benefit ("at least I don't need to clog up my rails with long coal trains to still get power!")
19:43:24 <supermop> i mean i love weird overzealous timetabling, so i would schedule a train once every other year, but i don't know how station or industries in game would understand that
19:44:06 <supermop> CD would drop link between processing plant and power station
19:44:15 <planetmaker> haha, that would make for awesome wagon speed limits: 80 or 120 km/h usually. Except for uranium, then it's 5km/h :P
19:44:24 <planetmaker> so much for the dreaded r-word
19:44:26 <andythenorth> oh yeah, it's the stupid low volumes
19:44:37 <andythenorth> but it could be done in flasks or whatever
19:44:45 <andythenorth> instead of tonnes
19:44:57 <supermop> you can't run it at night either - it's always rushhour in ottd land
19:45:06 <planetmaker> that doesn't make it really better, andythenorth
19:45:28 <supermop> andythenorth: its still like 5 flasks per decade
19:45:48 <andythenorth> I was delivering it to ports :)
19:46:05 <andythenorth> and I don't think input amounts to black holes matter in this game much anyway
19:46:11 <supermop> unless the power company is paying you to run decoys regularly as well
19:46:14 <andythenorth> 2000 tonnes of cement to your hardware store?
19:46:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I doubt the uranium quay is in heavy use at any port
19:46:31 <Alberth> isn't industry like diamond mines having that low production? (or gold or so?)
19:46:42 <andythenorth> diamonds have <100 bags / month
19:46:47 <andythenorth> I find them a bit boring tbh
19:46:53 <andythenorth> but uranium could be same
19:47:00 <supermop> maybe a local dam builder buys all his cement at the hardware store
19:47:02 <andythenorth> but it doesn't encourage long trains etc
19:47:29 <andythenorth> 1 flask of uranium per vehicle?
19:50:48 <supermop> although there is no crime, terrorism, or war in openttd world, so you don't need to heavily guard it
19:52:18 <V453000> join yeti in uranium :D
19:56:00 <supermop> what to get for lunch
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20:21:45 <andythenorth> a bit wtf looking
20:25:03 <andythenorth> floating on barges for lagoon dredging
20:25:46 <andythenorth> (illegal dredging apparently)
20:29:44 *** glx is now known as Guest707
20:32:25 <Alberth> heart of darkness all over again :(
20:33:51 <sim-al2> But default OTTD does have those armored vans for valuables....
20:45:10 * andythenorth wonders about ilmenite mine
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21:46:31 * andythenorth needs one more kind of import / export industry
21:46:43 <andythenorth> got Bulk Terminal, Port, Trading Post currently
21:48:09 <andythenorth> could do a petro-chemical terminal, but it's basically same as oil refinery
21:48:17 <andythenorth> oil in, petrol, chemicals out
21:48:25 <andythenorth> or petrol, chemicals in, nothing out
21:52:15 <andythenorth> could do 'deepwater terminal', but eh
21:52:40 <andythenorth> when translated, the difference between those and 'bulk terminal' or 'port' might be meaningless
21:54:24 <andythenorth> I could do a totally generic 'merchant'
21:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> do an economy that is only import-export, no producing industry.
21:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and all the industries cluster at one point of the map
21:57:36 <frosch123> Add an exploration camp
21:57:54 <frosch123> accepts food, tools and glass
21:58:02 <frosch123> supplies gold and diamonds
21:58:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: I quite like that :D
21:58:17 <andythenorth> the diamond mines are boring
21:58:29 <andythenorth> prospectors camp
21:58:36 <andythenorth> maybe conflates with 'prospecting'
21:59:00 <andythenorth> 'import / export merchant' ? :P
21:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> simulate the office of the bank guy who gets the diamonds from the miners and pays them
21:59:28 <andythenorth> was going to do that
21:59:34 <andythenorth> but it's just a boring black hole?
22:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's the source of the diamonds, not the destination.
22:03:44 <andythenorth> still, where do they go? :)
22:04:17 <andythenorth> diamons -> merchant -> wives?
22:04:25 <andythenorth> are wives a cargo?
22:04:56 <frosch123> don't add a merchant that supplies wives :/
22:05:39 <frosch123> add a "wedding fair"
22:06:19 <andythenorth> this economy gets interesting
22:06:22 <andythenorth> what to call it?
22:06:26 <frosch123> though judging your excessive chemical usage
22:06:35 <frosch123> how about delivering diamonds to the glass works :p
22:06:39 <frosch123> for cutting the glass
22:07:19 <andythenorth> industrial diamonds?
22:08:06 <frosch123> you mean, deliver coal to diamond plants instead of power plants? :p
22:08:22 <frosch123> removes another blackhole :p
22:08:29 <andythenorth> such many ideas :)
22:08:56 <supermop> my fiance just bought a wedding dress for $65
22:09:18 <andythenorth> wedding dress cargo
22:09:19 <supermop> i don't think i can find a suit for that price outside of vietnam
22:09:41 <frosch123> supermop: sounds like barbie size
22:10:20 <frosch123> here you rent wedding dresses for 1/3 of the purchase price
22:10:46 <supermop> $65 sounds still cheaper
22:10:52 <frosch123> you just need to be rational enough to not want to keep it
22:10:57 <andythenorth> supermop: try vietnam?
22:11:05 <frosch123> $65 sounds wrong :p
22:11:21 <supermop> i never understood those $2000+ dresses
22:11:44 <supermop> i can sort of understand a suit that much if it is bespoke hand made, but even then
22:11:59 <supermop> (and i don't mind expensive clothes)
22:12:02 <frosch123> you don't mass produce dresses
22:12:25 <frosch123> you need to offer a lot of choice, but do not sell many of each at all
22:12:31 <frosch123> that makes the production very inefficient
22:12:45 <supermop> andythenorth: no time to go back before wedding. closest ill get is taiwan and hk in june
22:12:55 <andythenorth> my wedding suit came from HK
22:13:00 <andythenorth> wasn't $65 though
22:13:25 <supermop> frosch123: i understand that part, but i never really like those dresses from a fashion or style standpoint either
22:16:30 <supermop> my grandma got married in a suit that she just wore to the office most days
22:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> studies have shown that cost of the wedding is reciprocal to length of the wedding
22:16:55 <supermop> but that was in 1949, and they had no ceremony
22:16:58 <frosch123> interesting study :)
22:17:27 <andythenorth> mine was 4 days :P
22:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant length of the marriage
22:17:51 <andythenorth> as yet unproven, in my case
22:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> reversely, number of people attending is proportional to length
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22:22:41 <andythenorth> 'merchants', 'merchants pier', 'merchants landing' ?
22:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what are those supposed to do?
22:23:13 <andythenorth> accept / produce high value cargos
22:23:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: contraband bay
22:23:19 <andythenorth> diamonds, gold, goods etc
22:23:51 <frosch123> yeah, smugglers for high-value, low-volume cargos
22:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: three chinese with a contraband? :p
22:24:21 <frosch123> maybe contraband is AE, no idea, andy may know better
22:24:36 <frosch123> i thought 'smugglers' was too german
22:24:50 <andythenorth> smuggles smuggle contraband
22:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause> contraband is the product being smuggled, not the smugglers
22:25:32 <frosch123> anyway, it may allow you do create some distinguishable graphics
22:25:38 <frosch123> instead of yet another generic port :p
22:26:12 <andythenorth> merchants and smugglers separate?
22:26:18 <andythenorth> one gives more goods back than the other :P
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22:29:28 <andythenorth> generic ports are boring
22:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue where you're going with this...
22:29:53 <andythenorth> economy that exports a lot of primary cargo
22:30:00 <andythenorth> and imports most tertiary cargo
22:30:08 <andythenorth> and some secondary
22:30:22 <andythenorth> to make it work, needs export / import industries
22:30:50 <andythenorth> ports instead of refineries, processorts etc
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