IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-12-12
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11:37:21 <frosch123> all weirdos arrived
11:37:24 <frosch123> channel operational
11:37:32 <Wolf01> the post office is a pita
11:40:44 <V453000> ok so my vehicle offsets fucked up
11:40:52 <V453000> what else would I have expected
11:41:22 <Alberth> everything going according to plan thus :p
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11:46:35 <V453000> idk why did I make vehicle sprites 256x320
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11:55:57 <V453000> offsets to be shat upon later
12:42:36 <V453000> how do I use this in NML please? :d
13:06:37 <argoneus> good morning train friends
13:06:43 <argoneus> oh V453000 I wanted to ask you somethink
13:06:56 <argoneus> but it was at like 4am and I didn't want to ping you and now I forgot ffuuck
13:08:05 <argoneus> hey Wolf01 ever tried dytech or bob?
13:08:20 <Wolf01> i usually play vanilla
13:08:39 <Wolf01> except ottd and elder scrolls games
13:08:55 <argoneus> what do you do after 30 hours
13:08:58 <argoneus> when you have everything
13:09:04 <argoneus> and biters aren't a threat either
13:09:20 <frosch123> V453000: you need a cyclic animation where the number of frames is a power of two
13:09:26 <frosch123> so 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, ... frames
13:09:39 <Wolf01> i build a rocket silo and finish the game
13:09:48 <Wolf01> or i just continue to play and expand
13:11:48 <argoneus> V453000: did you move to prague for the job?
13:11:57 <argoneus> or do you still live in that small city you mentioned that i forgot
13:16:15 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so, why is motion_counter in nml only 4 bits?
13:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: wasn't me...
13:16:33 <frosch123> i can see some reasoning behind dropping the lower 8 bits
13:16:39 <frosch123> but not in seeing the rest
13:16:44 <frosch123> is it just bollocks?
13:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: lowest 4 bits is the movement over one tile
13:17:27 <frosch123> it will get out of sync in corners and when reversing
13:17:38 <frosch123> so, if that was the original idea, it is broken :p
13:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i always thought that, too :p
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13:19:32 <frosch123> so, put them in a witch
13:19:52 <frosch123> and use getbits(motion_count, 0, 4)
13:19:58 <frosch123> or get_bits, can't remember
13:20:48 <V453000> getbits(motion_counter,0,4){0: frame0, ...} ?
13:24:56 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i changed nml
13:30:17 <V453000> frosch123: can I have such animation repeat 4 times per tile?
13:39:55 <V453000> is only possible from a spritelayout
13:40:04 <V453000> I guess that means I cant define sprites like this?
13:47:55 <V453000> looks like it works XD
13:48:06 <V453000> except I need it 4 times faster
13:49:03 <V453000> do I just do getbits(motion_counter,0,6)
13:49:22 <V453000> and then ranges 0..16:frame0 ?
14:01:34 <frosch123> V453000: nml only gives you coordinates by default. if you want it finer you have to use some magic: var[0x46, 4, 0xF] instead of getbits(...)
14:02:36 <frosch123> but well, i am not sure whether it would actually work in ottd
14:02:44 <frosch123> maybe ottd only redraws the train when it actually moves
14:02:59 <frosch123> so, more than 16 frames per tile may not work
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14:06:59 <V453000> I can eventually reduce the count
14:07:09 <V453000> but with slower speed it would not be nice
14:07:30 <V453000> it is doing some silly shit regardless
14:07:34 <frosch123> well, vehicles won't move any smoother :p
14:09:05 <V453000> each of the functions seems to operate completely differently :d
14:11:47 <V453000> it kind of works, 32 would be enough
14:19:05 <argoneus> that's some steampunk shit right there
14:19:28 <frosch123> poor yeti needs a seat
14:21:46 <V453000> guess it wont happen argoneus
14:21:51 <V453000> 16 frames per tile are not enough
14:22:19 <frosch123> are they limited to 10km/h ?
14:24:23 <V453000> well increasing speed to like 250kmh actually makes the effect kind of get lost XD
14:25:40 <frosch123> the wheels start to turn backwards at certain speeds :)
14:26:03 <V453000> I wonder if adding some motion blur would actually help
14:27:07 <argoneus> how fast is this going to be?
14:27:14 <argoneus> these things will always look weird if going fast
14:27:33 <argoneus> imagine a mill spinning at 2000 rpm
14:27:34 <V453000> that is pretty retarded question if I dont even know if it is going to be argoneus :P
14:28:12 <V453000> I already stated that it probably wont happen
14:28:19 <V453000> which means I am reaching some technical limit
14:28:38 <V453000> which means speed will need to adapt to whatever is most suitable to the limit, if at all feasible
14:29:00 <argoneus> if you want the animation to look any cool it cant really go faster than 20-40 km/h
14:29:27 <argoneus> because it would have to spin too fast
14:29:31 <argoneus> and that'd look weird
14:31:18 <argoneus> well sorry if I upset you
14:32:32 <V453000> frosch123: how about using current_speed to change motion blur stages a bit? XD
14:33:19 <frosch123> yeah, make them glow red and spawn lighning sparks :p
14:33:58 <frosch123> you can now spawn multiple visual effects and position them individually
14:34:10 <frosch123> so you can also spawn the electric spark near the wheels
14:34:38 <V453000> that didnt yet occur to me
14:35:00 <V453000> I will just let it re-render with motion blur and see wat up
14:35:17 <V453000> could just change mb in postproduction but eh
14:35:54 <V453000> I got a gtx 980 Ti, Blender rendering = easy
14:39:29 <V453000> I wonder how many sprites will I need for a single engine :D the set might just end at 1
14:40:29 <Mazur> I bet it's going to end up with 453000 sprites.
14:40:59 <frosch123> well, widelands has about 1.5 GB of sprites (the whole game), nuts has about 3GB
14:42:00 <Wolf01> also don't forget people waving goodbye on the passenger cars' windows when the train start moving at stations
14:42:36 <frosch123> goodbye or farewell? :p
14:43:13 <V453000> they wave fuck off :P
14:43:23 <argoneus> how do you wave fuck off
14:43:35 <Wolf01> "fuck off i'm going to disappear on the next station"
14:44:22 <Mazur> argoneus: just like regular, only your smile is real and from relief to see them going.
14:45:46 <Wolf01> we should really keep a list of each person in the game, so we could track them and give them feelings and such, also destroying the entire game economy because we'll end up with only 100 people travelling while others are doing other things
14:46:19 <argoneus> let's call it egodist
14:46:22 <Mazur> 99.99% of people calling in sick for the day.
14:47:09 <Wolf01> train personnel strikes
14:48:29 <Wolf01> let's do a fully new game, a mix between ottd, factorio, and banished and call it real transport tycoon
14:48:53 <Wolf01> maybe based on the train fever engine
14:50:08 <argoneus> you just want to see the train's butt don't you
14:52:14 <Wolf01> also the view from the engine, like the rollercoaster tycoon 3 first person riding feature
14:53:09 <argoneus> you might as well become a train conductor
14:58:54 <argoneus> I wish I could be motivated to spend a lot of time on one thing :(
14:59:05 <argoneus> whenever I try to get into something I binge it for 60 hours and then never touch it again
14:59:08 <V453000> frosch123: can I detect current_speed = 0 and make it "cool down" over a few frames if I had the wheel heat up
15:00:18 <V453000> well the only place trains stop immediately is signals
15:00:24 <frosch123> you can only make it reflect speed immediately
15:00:39 <frosch123> though you can distinguish accelerating and slowing down
15:01:06 <frosch123> so you could draw differently at 50km/h speeding up vs 50km/h slowing down
15:01:09 <V453000> probably not much point having double amount of sprites just for slowing down
15:01:20 <V453000> back in an hour or so
15:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. i just fed you. you can't be hungry.
15:08:26 <frosch123> ever saw a kid not wanting a dessert after lunch?
15:08:28 <argoneus> he probably just wants your attention
15:08:45 <Wolf01> or just vomited around and asking for lunch again
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15:21:07 <drac_boy> mazur which hell? ;)
15:22:08 <drac_boy> heh well I actually had been to Hell, Grand Cayman .. kinda funny tho ... a place named hell :)
15:22:26 <drac_boy> as I recall it came from the odd rock formations there
15:23:45 <drac_boy> anyway how're you two?
15:26:05 <argoneus> im wondering if I should get an x360 controller for pc
15:26:11 <argoneus> my logitech controller is dying
15:27:28 <frosch123> you should play ottd with a mouse
15:28:14 <argoneus> well not for ottd, duh
15:28:21 <argoneus> I use a steering wheel for ottd
15:28:25 <argoneus> to turn my trains better
15:29:49 <frosch123> maybe spread the myth that you can turn the map in ottd when using a steering wheel
15:31:34 <drac_boy> well tbh a steering wheel could work for -some- certain locomotives in msts tho? :) (yeah, clockwise for throttle and counterclockwise for brake .. or something like that .. I think thats how they functioned)
15:31:52 <drac_boy> someone who actually knows of these locomotives should know better anyhow
15:36:40 <drac_boy> but as for ottd/ttdx I would think a mouse/tablet with optional keyboard is probably the best method
15:37:07 <drac_boy> (although to try drag tracks with a pen may be interesting)
15:37:46 <argoneus> I actually want the controller to play dark souls
15:37:54 <argoneus> guess I'll just get the x360 one
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15:44:37 * drac_boy gives sim-a12 one of my breakfast muffin
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15:58:26 <argoneus> oh by the way frosch123 Wolf01 friends
15:58:34 <argoneus> do you use anything for optimizing your production?
15:58:37 <argoneus> like any tools or spreadsheets
15:59:00 <Alberth> yes, issue trackers, compilers, makefiles
15:59:29 <frosch123> i made a spreadsheet to compute how much coal efficiency modules safe and productivy modules cost for which assembling plant
15:59:40 <frosch123> and i computed how to use oil best
15:59:49 <argoneus> any idea if there are any calculators for assembler ratios?
15:59:59 <argoneus> writing a script would take time too
16:02:58 <frosch123> argoneus: well, yes, i did exactly that spreadsheet wrt. how much raw cargos are used to produce a module assuming certain modules in the assembling machines
16:03:19 <frosch123> result was that speed modules are worthless, except in beacons around oil wells
16:03:33 <frosch123> beacons are useless except around oil wells
16:03:47 <argoneus> that's a whole new level of theorycrafting I couldn't be arsed to do
16:03:53 <frosch123> oil raffinery and chemistry plant should all use productivity modules
16:04:17 <argoneus> actually, what do you mean
16:04:26 <argoneus> it uses the same amount no matter the modules, no?
16:04:30 <argoneus> except maybe prod. module
16:04:31 <frosch123> the assembling machines should use a mixture of efficiency and productivity modules
16:04:45 <frosch123> with more efficiency on early cargos, and more productivity on later cargos
16:05:30 <frosch123> argoneus: assuming yuo produce all power using coal or oil, and not using the solar power cheat, you can compute how much iron, copper and coal some product needs
16:05:37 <frosch123> using efficiency modules reduces the usage of coal
16:05:51 <frosch123> using productiviy modules exchanges copper and iron for more coal
16:06:06 <argoneus> oh wow you went that far
16:06:24 <argoneus> is there a ratio coal:kW ?
16:06:29 <argoneus> assuming steam engines
16:06:30 <frosch123> producing a module needs like 500 raw copper
16:06:50 <frosch123> using productivity modueles on advanced circuits saves you like 5% of that copper, while only costing slightly more coal
16:07:31 <frosch123> using producivity modules on something like copper wires requires a lot more coal
16:07:49 <argoneus> i actually tried to avoid modules a lot, except efficiency
16:07:56 <argoneus> only used efficiency in most things and speed 3 in furnaces
16:07:57 <frosch123> argoneus: yes, there is a fixed ratio for coal->kw and solid fuel -> kw
16:08:15 <frosch123> light oil is the best to use for solid fuel
16:08:40 <frosch123> the advanced rafinerery processing is better than the basic ones, even when going for fuel instead of gas
16:08:48 <argoneus> so you crack heavy to light and make solid fuel from that?
16:08:53 <frosch123> argoneus: speed is really worthless
16:09:02 <frosch123> it's better to build more assembling plants
16:09:20 <argoneus> with furnaces the belts limit you
16:09:21 <frosch123> speed modules trade space for coal
16:09:29 <argoneus> and if you didn't plan well enough, you can't split and make another line
16:09:35 <frosch123> it's way better to build more funcaces than to waste coal
16:09:36 <argoneus> and then speed modules are nice
16:11:52 <frosch123> argoneus: heavy -> light -> solid fuel is better than heavy -> solid fuel, even considering the energy needed for the cacking
16:12:06 <argoneus> just... how many calculations did you do?
16:12:10 <argoneus> or do you have a script
16:12:17 <frosch123> no, just a spreadsheet
16:12:36 <argoneus> I couldn't figure out how to make my spreadsheet calculate these things
16:14:43 <frosch123> they are not commented, so, good luck figureing them out :p
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16:16:25 <argoneus> these spreadsheets....
16:18:59 <andythenorth> when BB picks a tertiary cargo
16:19:59 <andythenorth> I have 8 chains to build to provide the input cargos for a ‘vehicles’ cargo goal
16:23:21 <drac_boy> mm what os/cpu factorio need anyway?
16:23:58 <frosch123> it needs a pc with 3d graphics acceleration
16:24:28 <frosch123> the linux build works with the shared libraries that come with debian jessie
16:24:33 <frosch123> it did not work with wheezy
16:32:18 <drac_boy> hmm so anything agp? seeing this topic for the second time now .. I may have to actually think about trying factorio perhaps .. we'll see tho :)
16:33:52 <frosch123> drac_boy: there is a demo
16:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> does agp still exist?
17:15:17 <peter1138> i imagine there's still some people running kit with it, so yes, it exists.
17:17:37 <drac_boy> have to go for lunch sorry
17:22:27 <argoneus> you can always buy the game and refund it if it doesn't work
17:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the car is called kitt
17:26:33 <argoneus> nothing personnel, kitt
17:27:01 <Taede> personal, not personell
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22:36:27 <argoneus> can someone explain me something
22:36:35 <argoneus> there are mods which have specific licenses
22:36:48 <argoneus> such as "you can't redistribute it, you have to link people to my website" and stuff like that
22:37:04 <argoneus> and then such mods aren't on bananas
22:37:14 <argoneus> and it's a pain to get them in general because their website might die, etc
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22:37:23 <argoneus> can't you make it so that every mod that people make has to have X license?
22:37:50 <argoneus> I mean, probably not, it's their mod, but yeah
22:38:38 <andythenorth> how would that be enforced?
22:39:03 <argoneus> yeah I realized after the fact that not every mod has to be on banans
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