IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-12-08
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02:32:45 <argoneus> logistic robots need a nerf
02:32:49 <argoneus> they can almost replace conveyor belts
02:32:58 <argoneus> in large enough quantities
02:33:08 <argoneus> and they teleport stuff
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05:41:43 <Japa> okay, who of you was responsible for this?
05:47:50 <sim-al2> Now NSW has US sized trains :D
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11:49:11 <argoneus> i dreamt about smelters
11:49:13 <argoneus> and how to make a good design
11:50:10 <argoneus> now i know how to make a good smelter design
11:50:15 <argoneus> it involves underground belt weaving
11:50:22 <argoneus> actually is that a bug to be fixed or is it a feature?
11:51:53 <Wolf01> what do you mean? the ability to pick up from the underground belts entrances?
11:52:40 <argoneus> no, underground belt weaving
11:53:05 <argoneus> you can alternate yellow/red or red/blue underground entrances
11:53:10 <argoneus> because they don't join up to eachother
11:53:17 <argoneus> and this way you can get two different lanes on 1tile
11:53:36 <argoneus> so you have a long line with belt weaving
11:53:42 <argoneus> and smelters on both sides
11:53:50 <argoneus> and the input line is also the output line
11:53:54 <argoneus> and it has large throughput
11:56:06 <argoneus> something like this :D
11:56:49 <V453000> idk, probably a feature :)
11:56:55 <Wolf01> i think that optimisation is an overkill
11:57:10 <argoneus> you don't lose on anything
11:57:20 <argoneus> other than not being able to use a blue belt on output which is not needed anyway
11:57:29 <Wolf01> the basic smelters can't even handle that production speed
11:57:29 <V453000> except insane amount of iron invested in the underground belts you dont lose anything yes
11:57:48 <argoneus> you can put electric furnaces there
11:57:50 <argoneus> nothing is stopping you
11:58:18 <V453000> I use underground belt weaving only when I really need the space, which usually only happens when I want the factory to use beacons later
11:58:44 <Wolf01> with electric furnaces you need more space and then you can just put 2 belts and long inserters
11:59:24 <Wolf01> i really think that if you plan well the building site, you'll never run out of space
11:59:52 <argoneus> ive been trying to come up with a design that will let me start off with regular furnaces
11:59:56 <argoneus> and then easily upgrade them to electric
12:00:00 <V453000> yes but if you have assembler with 4 inputs and you want a beacon to reach it, the inserter+belt cannot take more than 2 tiles
12:00:04 <argoneus> but it usually involves rebuilding everything
12:00:17 <argoneus> i havent found a good early-game smelter design yet
12:00:32 <V453000> normal-> electric == just remove coal line, that gives you back the extra tile size?
12:01:21 <argoneus> yeah but space management
12:01:29 <argoneus> like, do you smelters usually output in the middle?
12:01:32 <argoneus> or on the sides of them
12:01:48 <argoneus> if the input and output is both in the middle it makes it much easier to expand
12:02:14 <V453000> it does not really matter at all to me
12:02:22 <argoneus> why smart inserters?
12:02:55 <V453000> looks like ancient grahpics
12:05:10 <V453000> simple, no messing around
12:06:27 <argoneus> are the robots really better than the belts?
12:06:30 <argoneus> they need to fly quite far
12:06:46 <V453000> for unloading ores I like it a LOT more than belts
12:06:59 <Wolf01> heh, mine is really small, just 25 electric furnaces for iron and 10 for copper, but just because i don't even need to use all that i produce
12:07:05 <V453000> you can make train stations closer so they travel less
12:07:27 <V453000> and with enough roboports they will work regardless
12:08:01 <V453000> as for early game smelting, anything works really :)
12:08:09 <V453000> later on I just set this up once I got trains and bots
12:08:22 <argoneus> do you just delete entire sections and build them somewhere else?
12:08:31 <argoneus> like your early game smelters
12:08:34 <V453000> why would I delete anything
12:08:57 <V453000> not necessarily, sometimes I bring ore for them to continue using them
12:09:04 <V453000> by train obviously, once their deposit runs out
12:09:33 <V453000> or I turn them to steel at the main base later, and bring iron plates by train
12:10:04 <V453000> there are many options and none of them is the right one really :) anything works
12:10:39 <V453000> for the sake of expandability, it is nice to have smelting as its own train base though
12:11:04 <V453000> this way whenever I discover I need more of -ore-, I just bring more of it to the smelting area by train
12:11:11 <V453000> if I need more smelters then I Just blueprint another row
12:11:50 <argoneus> 0.13 cant come quick enough
12:11:56 <argoneus> the current train building system gives me aids
12:12:20 <argoneus> V453000: do you get access to dev builds?
12:12:34 <V453000> I dont see much wrong with the current train building system?
12:12:50 <argoneus> curves are frustrating to build
12:12:54 <argoneus> diagonal lines are frustrating to build
12:13:02 <V453000> yes it is a bit tougher to find where tracks belong but I dont have a problem with it anymore and I cant say I have that much time spent on playing the game
12:13:19 <V453000> idk, dint feel like a critical issue to me
12:13:28 <V453000> access, probably yes, do I use them? no
12:13:29 <argoneus> well it felt like it to the devs apparently
12:14:14 <V453000> well sure the new rail building tools are awesome but saying that you wont build trains in .12 because .13 will be better is kind of exaggerating to me
12:14:26 <V453000> to that I am comparing how much of a problem I see it :P
12:14:29 <argoneus> i do have a lot of trains
12:14:34 <argoneus> it's just frustrating
12:14:37 <argoneus> I said I can't wait for 0.13
12:14:43 <argoneus> not that I protest or something
12:15:32 <V453000> btw blueprints for curves etc migth also help
12:16:12 <argoneus> blueprints are fairly late
12:16:15 <argoneus> oh yeah this reminds me
12:16:21 <argoneus> how soon do you guys like to get steel?
12:16:34 <argoneus> i usually get oil first
12:16:42 <argoneus> but there are some neat things you need steel for
12:16:48 <V453000> you cant get oil without steel?
12:17:03 <argoneus> wait what do I get first then
12:17:30 <Wolf01> as the refinery needs steel
12:17:30 <argoneus> im p sure i always hold it off for something else
12:17:33 <V453000> refinery needs steel, pumpjack needs steel, chemical plant needs steel, liquid tank needs steel
12:17:34 <V453000> I usually play with rather high biter settings so AP ammo is kind of essential
12:17:52 <argoneus> arent lasers better?
12:18:00 <Wolf01> plot twist, you don't even need ammo
12:18:19 <Wolf01> and no, i'm not referring to laser turrets
12:18:52 <Wolf01> i used more ammo to smash rocks than for biters nests
12:19:16 <Wolf01> but with the tank, i just run over anything
12:19:40 <argoneus> I wish vehicles had movement prediction in multiplayer
12:19:46 <argoneus> it's pretty much impossible to drive them
12:21:20 <V453000> lasers sure are better but if biters are attacking you early (which they are unless you play with very low biter settings which I find boring), then you need AP ammo
12:23:02 <argoneus> i usually play with very high biters
12:23:09 <argoneus> and the regular magazines seem to be enough
12:23:17 <Wolf01> i play with high biters and peaceful mode
12:23:22 <argoneus> though I need to resupply them allllll the time
12:23:38 <Wolf01> just because i need the alien stuff
12:24:31 <Wolf01> they will get angry sometimes but i manage to clear the nearest nests before the pollution reaches them
12:25:08 <Wolf01> i had to use the turrets only for the first 3-4 nests
12:25:08 <argoneus> what is a good progression anyway
12:25:24 <argoneus> coal -> copper+iron -> red/green potion -> steel -> oil -> whatever?
12:25:26 <Wolf01> then the OP tank happened
12:25:49 <argoneus> Wolf01: peaceful is for pussies :^)
12:26:02 <argoneus> you don't know terror until you get a wave of spitters in 3 different directions
12:26:10 <V453000> I like getting laser turrets + construction bots before blue lab pack to repair my stuff
12:26:22 <planetmaker> this sounds terribly like the wrong channel
12:26:30 <Wolf01> i have enough zergling rush on starcraft, let me play a slow paced game every now and then ;)
12:26:35 <argoneus> planetmaker: I know, but the game has trains and signals too
12:26:42 <argoneus> and I usually cut it if there's people discussing trains
12:31:37 <V453000> well it is about equally offtopic as realistic train discussions :)
12:31:59 <argoneus> how do you guys get iron/copper to things early game?
12:32:08 <argoneus> if you keep using splitters then after 3 of them you're out of iron
12:32:16 <argoneus> so there has to be some other magic right
12:32:31 <V453000> well then where is the iron going? :D
12:32:38 <V453000> the splitter does not make things disappear...
12:32:47 <argoneus> if you have 20 iron on the belt
12:32:50 <V453000> but yes, splitters are the only option
12:32:58 <argoneus> 1st splitter 10, 2nd 5, 3rd 2/3
12:33:04 <argoneus> so at the end you have like 2 iron plates
12:33:06 <V453000> yes, normal binary tree
12:33:39 <V453000> you can control that by making smart inserters so that your assemblers eat less cargo
12:33:53 <V453000> also you can make multiple splitters to get a ratio
12:33:54 <argoneus> don't I need to research circuits for that?
12:34:12 <argoneus> I can split it twice in the beginning
12:34:17 <V453000> well yes, if yo uwant such wtf control, you do need to research circuits for that
12:34:37 <V453000> regardless, the answer is that I get a belt which splits to anything
12:34:54 <V453000> the whole point is that no assembler ever takes from the non-split part
12:35:13 <V453000> that way when you have insufficient amount of resources, the factory still works, just slower
12:35:17 <argoneus> but there's my problem
12:35:19 <V453000> and ofc in some ratio
12:35:26 <argoneus> I make gearwheels, that's one split
12:35:30 <argoneus> then ammo, another split
12:35:49 <argoneus> then scipack 2's, that's another split
12:36:01 <argoneus> and then I want to make steel, but when I split it again there's barely any iron at the end
12:36:10 <argoneus> does that mean I need to produce more iron
12:36:21 <argoneus> so all the ones before are clogged?
12:36:38 <V453000> or add another belt of input
12:36:43 <V453000> or make the belt go faster
12:37:00 <argoneus> another belt of input?
12:37:14 <V453000> well nobody says you are limited to 1 belt right?
12:37:26 <V453000> if one is not enough you can just add another
12:37:37 <V453000> on which you get more iron, obviously
12:38:00 <argoneus> im probably just going to fix my ratios, it should help early on
12:38:05 <argoneus> just split the main line into two
12:38:11 <argoneus> and then alternate left/right
12:38:18 <argoneus> that should help a lot
12:38:19 <V453000> I just make assemblers output into chests with small inventory, that way they stop consuming stuff once there is enough
12:38:32 <argoneus> the small inventory is still quite large :(
12:38:42 <V453000> you can cap it at anything you like?
12:39:09 <argoneus> or do you mean smart stuff
12:39:19 <V453000> no, any chest without any smart stuff
12:39:23 <V453000> at the end of chest inventory is a red X
12:39:33 <V453000> just click it and move it to any point in the chest you like
12:39:52 <argoneus> what did I even think the cross did
12:39:57 <argoneus> so it limits the slots?
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13:32:01 <argoneus> V453000: how did you take this screenshot?
13:32:08 <argoneus> are you playing on 4k or is there a better way?
13:33:18 <argoneus> I thought you could zoom all the way in
13:33:22 <V453000> you are aware that you can zoom out in the game right? :P
13:33:24 <argoneus> but you zoomed the game out and took a pic
13:33:49 <argoneus> your smelters not working
13:34:05 <V453000> no, that is why there is full double line of iron plates next to them
13:34:08 <V453000> brought by trains now
13:34:24 <argoneus> what if you need iron ore?
13:34:41 <V453000> I make concrete at smeltery ;)
13:34:52 <V453000> bricks are smelted there as well anyway
13:36:23 <argoneus> so you transport stone to your smeltery?
13:36:36 <argoneus> i should make a dedicated smelting base
13:37:17 <V453000> currently I have 3 bases
13:37:34 <V453000> the main one where I started - where everything eventually gets produced
13:37:38 <argoneus> by the way, about oil
13:37:44 <V453000> and one for circuits and modules
13:37:44 <argoneus> it's not worth it to process oil separately, right
13:37:54 <argoneus> I just barrel it up and move it to my main base
13:37:57 <argoneus> where all the processing is
13:38:05 <argoneus> the pumpjacks run out quite fast
13:38:30 <V453000> you can put speed modules and beacons to pumpjacks to keep them somewhat relevant
13:38:49 <argoneus> I wish there was more way to get power
13:38:52 <argoneus> other than STEAM ENGINES
13:39:08 <argoneus> solar doesn't seem competitive, it just prevents biters from busting your ass for a bit
13:39:29 <argoneus> are there any bigger accumulators than the ones I hav enow?
13:39:46 <argoneus> well I use rso but vanilla
13:40:48 <V453000> I like the mod from xyle which adds new solar panels and accumulators
13:40:58 <V453000> so you can spend more resources on making better things
13:41:09 <V453000> cause solar farms are just wtf big
13:44:53 <argoneus> i guess solar panels are nice
13:44:57 <argoneus> since you can put them anywhere
13:45:00 <argoneus> you can have a dedicated solar base
13:49:10 <Wolf01> i'm switching to solar power for everything, at least during the day, at night i have some steam power plants and a large battery array
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13:51:12 <V453000> yeah I just didnt feel like having a power base so I solved it with the mod ;P
13:51:53 <Wolf01> ok, back to work to that concrete factory, now that i found a big stone patch i need 1000 of concrete for the rocket silo :P
13:53:26 <Wolf01> also... V453000, is there a practical way to move 4 full steel chests?
13:53:56 <V453000> what I do is that I replace them with active provider and bots empty it
13:54:23 <Wolf01> eh, also with max speed and load capacity they take ages
13:54:46 <V453000> then you dont have many bots :P
13:55:06 <Wolf01> and i need to set up some requester chests with the filter, but then i'll get into a loop
13:55:37 <V453000> well you let them empty to storage first, ideally
13:56:23 <V453000> regardless, if you cant use bots like that, just place 2 other chests, empty your inventory and manually move it
13:56:28 <V453000> not that big of a deal either
13:57:40 <Wolf01> ahah, then the drones will fill it again :D
14:00:09 <V453000> clear filter/remove input?
14:01:14 <argoneus> is there a mod to be able to rotate assemblies?
14:01:37 <Wolf01> use the blueprints and rotate them
14:01:37 <V453000> well if two clicks are too much work then idk
14:01:51 <argoneus> i cant rotate them when placing o.o
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14:01:58 <argoneus> they dont have any direction either
14:02:19 <argoneus> then I need to rotate the pipe
14:02:23 <V453000> then you rotate them after you selected the fluid recipe
14:02:44 <argoneus> i swear you cant rotate them before selecting recipe
14:03:02 <V453000> how would you see it even if you could?
14:03:12 <V453000> like, how can you tell they arent actually rotating
14:12:18 <argoneus> just to make sure im reading this right
14:12:58 <argoneus> an electric drill by default mines roughly 0.5 iron per second, a furnace can smelt 2 items per second
14:13:08 <argoneus> so I need 1 furnace per 4 drills? that sounds awfully low
14:13:29 <argoneus> i swear it's slower than that o.o
14:14:05 <V453000> idk I dont care about numbers and ratios
14:14:11 <V453000> stuff works or not, it alway show what I need more of
14:14:18 <argoneus> but does it sound about right
14:14:25 <argoneus> that it's 1 furnace per 4 drills?
14:14:45 <Wolf01> no, i don't really care about optimisation
14:14:56 <argoneus> meanwhile im trying to minmax everything
14:15:17 <V453000> remembering stupid numbers has nothing to do with building a good factory
14:15:29 <V453000> you can clearly see if something is a bottleneck or not even without remembering numbers
14:15:57 <argoneus> but you can only fit so many drills on one iron mine
14:16:05 <argoneus> knowing how many furnaces you need to run that helps with planning
14:16:42 <argoneus> you probably know the numbers intuitively
14:17:24 <V453000> no because I just have shitload of ore outposts going into a shitload of smelters at smeltery
14:17:28 <V453000> but dont see the actual ratio
14:19:30 <V453000> also some of my smelteries have speed beacons, some do not. also makes a big difference
14:27:36 <argoneus> the wiki is full of bullshit
14:32:18 <argoneus> V453000: basically it says
14:32:22 <argoneus> that a furnace can smelt 2 items/s
14:32:30 <argoneus> which is bullshit, it should say the mining speed or mining factor or whatever is 2
14:33:07 <argoneus> from this you figure out that it takes 3.5 seconds to smelt one iron, which means it takes 1.75 seconds to smelt it in a furnace (3.5/2)
14:33:32 <argoneus> if it takes 1.75 seconds to smelt 1 iron, that's ~0.57 iron plates per furnace per second
14:33:43 <argoneus> and a drill can produce roughly 0.525 iron per second
14:33:54 <argoneus> so basically you need them 1:1 + one or two backup furnaces
14:37:53 <Wolf01> mmmh the train length difference between horizontal and vertical direction really bothers me more than the difference of the diagonal ottd's one
14:42:58 <argoneus> im probably going to make some sort of spreadsheet
14:43:17 <argoneus> although im pretty sure someone has already made something like that
15:05:53 <argoneus> foreman seems broken
15:06:00 <argoneus> it says I need 2 furnaces for 4 drills
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15:16:04 <argoneus> apparently foreman is broken as well
15:16:11 <argoneus> it gives values that don't correspond to what the wiki says
15:16:19 <argoneus> im not sure who to trust anymore, do I need to stopwatch this stuff myself :/
15:16:58 <V453000> why dont you just read the values of speeds of things in the game?
15:17:08 <V453000> crafting speed, mining speed, time it takes for X, ?
15:17:22 <V453000> I give zero shit about the numbers tbh
15:17:37 <V453000> might want to go to the proper channel to ask about factorio math
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15:18:06 <argoneus> I asked in the factorio channel, we agreed on a calculation
15:18:11 <argoneus> but now foreman is giving me different numbers
15:19:31 <argoneus> yeah, ingame it says the same as what we calculated
15:19:35 <argoneus> basically foreman is useless
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17:53:12 <andythenorth> Every Town has a Goal GS?
18:00:53 <Alberth> euhm, that would bea city builder thingie, wouldn't it?
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18:02:53 <andythenorth> goals might be quite varied
18:03:08 <andythenorth> it’s similar to idea Frosch had about developing regions
18:03:22 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley Everywhere or so
18:03:34 <andythenorth> which is similar to my colonisation Conquer the West idea
18:03:41 * andythenorth back to playing BB :)
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18:21:41 <andythenorth> why build trains? o_O
18:21:46 * andythenorth has trucks everywhere :P
18:25:55 <andythenorth> is rubber edible?
18:25:59 * andythenorth has a bad refit :P
18:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you might survive eating it :p
18:31:04 <Alberth> it's probably not very tasty :)
18:39:19 <andythenorth> I think I’ll patch BB for 20 goals
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18:45:19 <Alberth> also sort on progress? running stuff isn't that interesting
18:45:28 <Alberth> not sure if there is a ticket about it
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19:44:16 <andythenorth> sort on progress might be usefull Alberth
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22:27:43 <argoneus> the train tries to go in the upper station
22:28:49 <Wolf01> also you might need the chain signal (a sort of pre-signal)
22:28:51 <argoneus> but the train was already too far forward
22:34:13 <Wolf01> if more trains need to use the same station, you might need waiting areas
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22:35:33 <frosch123> argoneus: when you hover over a signal or trainstop, it shows some arrows for the driving direction
22:37:38 <argoneus> but different trains load different things
22:37:42 <argoneus> so i need separate stations
22:38:05 <argoneus> how do smart inserters tell which train it is?
22:38:26 <Wolf01> i have the same unloading station for both copper and iron ores
22:38:35 <Wolf01> one side for copper, the other for iron
22:38:51 <argoneus> it's a loading station
22:38:58 <argoneus> and both the trains go to different places
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22:39:05 <Wolf01> then yes, you need two
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