IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-12-09
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00:02:07 <marlinc> Is there a content pack that adds more MagLev Lev N trains? For example Lev 6?
00:02:16 <marlinc> What ever that might be :)
00:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> marlinc: try vactrains or monolev replacement
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00:09:46 <marlinc> Mm Eddi|zuHause that's cool. I just downloaded the 2 packs related to vactrains but I'm unsure where to look. I started a single player game to try it out but it doesn't appear under the train menu
00:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> did you activate them after downloading?
00:10:38 <marlinc> Ah! I didn't know that. I've done that now
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10:40:36 <andythenorth> when you *don’t* deliver supplies to FIRS industries because it messes up your network :P
10:40:59 <peter1138> When you don't play OpenTTD because faff.
10:43:14 <andythenorth> because all money tied up in company, would like it back one day
10:43:31 <Wolf01> because waiting for customer
11:17:18 <andythenorth> the PIPE grf needs an underwater option
11:17:38 <andythenorth> build using the canals-on-sea hack
11:20:47 <Wolf01> and doesn't it blocks ships which can't run on canals?
11:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make a transparent bridge?
11:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or use the chunnel hack?
11:44:46 <Wolf01> both require dry land for curves
11:51:39 <peter1138> whatever happened to the sealevel stuff?
11:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody followed through
11:52:18 <Wolf01> ask boekabart, i was following that one
11:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be more practical now with MHL
11:53:11 <Wolf01> the deepwater patch was really good
11:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you have like 2 weeks to update it before feature freeze :p
11:56:08 <andythenorth> seems like it’s a fun thing
11:59:11 <andythenorth> what if sea level > snow line? :P
12:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> salt water doesn't freeze as quickly
12:01:57 <Wolf01> why do you need to point at "R" things? it's a game :D
12:01:58 <andythenorth> what if it’s a big lake system?
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12:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then you should have made it from river tiles
12:04:50 <andythenorth> make SL variable
12:04:53 <andythenorth> climate change GS
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12:05:51 <andythenorth> the trailers are in HEQS already
12:05:55 <andythenorth> I just never drew the lead unit
12:06:31 <andythenorth> ach we’re just talking :)
12:06:56 <andythenorth> bug fixes, web translations, end of development :)
12:10:19 <andythenorth> I like more sea levels though
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12:10:28 <andythenorth> it’s obvious in advance that there is no gameplay purpose
12:10:41 <andythenorth> so it won’t be dissapointing (unlike….rivers) :P
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14:01:37 <argoneus> hey V453000, when you are making graphics for openttd or factorio or whatever, how do you know what angle the model should be for the sprite to work? do you experiment or is there a trick?
14:01:50 <argoneus> or rather what angle the camera should be
14:05:40 <V453000> openttd is 30 degrees or something, but the position is tough to count so through experimentation
14:07:12 <V453000> mainly because it is an orthographic camera so no degrees really apply there, it depends how it is implemented in the program
14:07:24 <V453000> I have made a special postproduction for testing camera
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14:07:44 <V453000> basically I have 16x16 grid for engines to be put on, iirc it is 32x32 tile grid
14:08:07 <V453000> and I put the edge and central engines on top of each other to see the error
14:08:25 <V453000> that way I can make the error on 4096x2048 sub-pixel which is really good
14:08:58 <V453000> means when I just bring it X times closer and reduce resolution to ie 256*something, the precision is even better than that
14:10:17 <V453000> the huge advantage of this is that it is also applicable for when I was testing it in blender, because only the output matters :)
14:11:15 <argoneus> i guess ill stick to shitting out code
14:14:25 <juzza1> that and ortographic projection will get you models that look right in openttd
14:15:19 <V453000> yes, with correct camera distance/resolution :P
14:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd does actually not use 30 degrees
14:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc arctan(1/8)
14:21:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function.
14:21:46 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.124354994547
14:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/8)*180/PI
14:21:54 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 7.1250163489
14:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that's not right
14:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/PI
14:22:04 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771
14:23:11 <V453000> how could my things be pixel-precise with 30 then? :D
14:25:03 <Alberth> pixels don't move with 3.4 degrees?
14:25:47 <V453000> they would probably move by like 200 pixels on the vertical
14:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you should fairly quickly get inconsistencies with the wrong value
14:26:41 <planetmaker> V453000, they won't be pixel-precise, if you use 30° instead of 26.6°. However you might simply have missed the differences
14:26:59 <V453000> that difference sounds very major
14:27:10 <juzza1> camera rotation and the apparent rotation of the model is not the same thing
14:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not read the entire article, but it does contain the value i mentioned
14:29:26 <juzza1> yes, but it's not the camera rotation
14:30:47 <planetmaker> yes.... 26.6° is the angle of the tile borders against the horizontal on screen. 45° is the camera angel wrt tile borders (thus looking edge-on)
14:31:01 <juzza1> because 30 degrees camera rotation results in the 26.6 degree angle between horizontal and horizontal edges of a cube, which results in the nice 2:1 stepping openttd has
14:31:30 <V453000> doesnt say degrees but you can count them from it
14:31:37 <planetmaker> and the inclination of the camera angle... maybe 30°, dunno. Too lazy to do the math :P
14:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there are certainly other values you can tweak to get the same (or similar) result
14:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> have (at least) one dimension of freedom when scaling from 3D to 2D
14:33:10 <V453000> I strongly believe that missing the difference on 4096*2048 is pretty hard, more so when the error on such resolution is sub-pixel, so I believe my 30deg is correct
14:33:22 <V453000> it works for me so care not
14:33:40 <V453000> and I dont see how can you reach two same results with different camera angle
14:35:30 <Alberth> as you said, the end result is what counts, so who cares :)
14:41:25 <V453000> just wonder how I counted it back then
14:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> with "the same" i don't mean the same image, but the same axis projections
14:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if you move the camera, there are other projection parameters to tweak to compensate
15:07:14 <V453000> well same axis projections should result in the same image eventually_
15:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe we're just talking about completely different things
15:09:26 <V453000> I just think that using camera-to-ground angle of 26,6 cannot reach correct results for openttd
15:12:34 <V453000> btw if the stepping of the sprite would be 1:1 then the camera degree would be 45, no? that would logically mean 1:2 is 30, or 60 in the opposite way
15:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't follow that reasoning
15:15:01 <V453000> makes perfect sense to me
15:15:49 <V453000> the bottom corner to be 26,6
15:15:56 <V453000> which is competely irrelevant for the 3D model
15:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that link doesn't work (without javascript)
15:19:08 <planetmaker> V453000, exactly that angle, yes
15:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there is no real reason to doubt the content of this wikipedia article
15:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (... any more than any other wikipedia article)
15:19:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, and that doesn't need javascript... it's a simple svg file. You maybe have no support for those?
15:19:46 <planetmaker> oh... 2nd last link :D
15:22:51 <planetmaker> and yes, you two talk of different angles :)
15:24:15 <V453000> apparently, but the angle Eddi is referring to is not relevant at all
15:24:26 <V453000> for setting up a 3D thing
15:33:44 *** berndj-blackout is now known as berndj
15:36:32 <V453000> xd I dont even have NML installed on this machine
15:48:01 <V453000> do I also need the pillow and PLY? I dont remember getting that
15:48:09 <V453000> apparently new NML needs new python, too
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15:49:32 <Alberth> it always needed PIL and PLY, but it may have been added into the windows distribution for you
15:50:15 <V453000> PIL sez that it hasnt found python 3.5 but it is there
15:51:56 <V453000> I have no clue what to do
15:58:03 <Alberth> pil(low) uses binary program code, which has to match cpu architecture and compiler used to compile python
15:58:46 <V453000> If you go for a python install and the packages themselves (e.g. mingw or msys) instead of the pre-compiled binary: Apparently you can prevent a lot of problems by installing the 32bit version of python, even if you have a 64bit windows installation. Installing PIL might be troublesome if you do install the 64bit version of python.
15:59:59 <Alberth> unfortunately, installing packages is one big stinking mess in windows
16:00:23 <Alberth> MS thinks in complete programs only, installer with installer
16:01:08 <V453000> I just dont know which vc to get
16:01:13 <V453000> because of this info on the NML page
16:02:01 <Alberth> what are you trying to compile?
16:14:15 <V453000> Visual C++ Redistributable Package apparently :)
16:16:19 <Alberth> newgrf doesn't compile with vc
16:20:19 <planetmaker> yeah, no point in installing a C compiler when you want to compile NML
16:21:32 <V453000> ._. back later with more questions
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16:26:18 <argoneus> are there any plans to port ottd to newer c++ standards?
16:26:26 <argoneus> or is there no reason to
16:26:39 <argoneus> it'd probably make it slower wouldn't it
16:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't even fully ported to "old" standards
16:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> new features can use new standards if they desire
16:33:50 <Alberth> it's 300,000+ lines of code, lots of changes, lots of things can go wrong
16:34:20 <Alberth> not to mention some parts are time critical, you cannot just change it
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19:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27467 /trunk/src/lang (simplified_chinese.txt turkish.txt) (2015-12-09 19:45:14 +0100 )
19:45:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:23 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
19:45:24 <DorpsGek> turkish - 34 changes by wakeup
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20:01:03 <andythenorth> forests as logging camps?
20:01:22 <Alberth> we already have them?
20:01:29 <andythenorth> thinking about them for FIRS
20:01:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: wrt BB, quite a few repeating goals now
20:02:01 <andythenorth> should I extend my patch and rework the serialise / deserialise?
20:02:30 <andythenorth> (track goals patch)
20:02:37 <Alberth> you can try to lengthen the test period perhaps?
20:03:33 <Alberth> I am not a big fan of tracking done goals, as that will not find the goals I did myself
20:04:01 <Alberth> if possible, I'd prefer to do without
20:04:06 <andythenorth> I see your point, yes
20:07:34 <andythenorth> ah, maybe I don’t have tip
20:08:21 <__ln__> ah, i forgot to mention that the previous url was not meant for Alberth or frosch123.
20:08:36 <__ln__> so don't click it, you two.
20:09:21 <Alberth> const TEST_TIMEOUT = 10000; // About 4.5 months of 30 days of 74 ticks. <-- line 83 company.nut
20:09:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: afaict, I had a version from 5th Dec, after route randomisation, but before you pushed extra monitoring
20:10:08 <andythenorth> I can’t quite match up version numbers, but going by timestamps
20:10:13 * andythenorth will play test more
20:11:45 <Alberth> 105:55c0a3cf3f30 is tip, although 104:f214439d5d3f is fine too (it just prints spoilers in the debug screen :p )
20:12:20 <Alberth> well, that would explain double goals :)
20:15:18 <Alberth> and the nice thing is that the save file format didn't change :)
20:17:46 <andythenorth> no matter how many years I’ve played, I still have the fallacy that bus service grows towns :P
20:18:12 <Alberth> disable towns making their own roads?
20:18:29 <Alberth> or don't drive buses through towns :p
20:19:13 <andythenorth> I just can’t shake the idea that 3 bus stops = town growth
20:19:20 <andythenorth> also that houses will get built near my bus stop
20:19:29 <andythenorth> "because that’s like real life”
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20:22:00 * andythenorth wonders what Pyrite Ore should look like in CHIPS
20:23:36 <andythenorth> depends how close you take the picture
20:28:50 <Alberth> gold is much nicer :)
20:28:59 <andythenorth> it’s completely variable, depending on the rock strata around it
20:29:04 <andythenorth> and they type of pyrite
20:29:22 <andythenorth> anything from grey, red, purple, yellow, tan
20:30:08 * andythenorth makes it very dark red, with some brown
20:33:52 <andythenorth> purple will probably cause complaints :P
20:36:47 <Alberth> they should just not transport pyrite :p
20:37:26 <Alberth> hmm, newgrf cargo table could list recommended colour
20:38:22 <andythenorth> there was standardisation scheme discussed on forums
20:38:25 <andythenorth> some egos were hurt :)
20:39:57 <andythenorth> and made my own industry set, train set, RV set, station set and ship set
20:40:15 <andythenorth> and planes don’t show visible cargo, so AV9 always agrees with my choices
20:40:20 <Alberth> finally consistency :p
20:40:33 <andythenorth> I will then fork OpenTTD, and only allow my grfs :P
20:40:50 <Alberth> hmm, V should do cargo-aircraft :)
20:41:02 <andythenorth> and flying squid
20:41:13 <andythenorth> nyan cat, on rainbows :P
20:41:49 <andythenorth> is a good town name, in my current game
20:42:09 <frosch123> i guess yetis would also sit on the planes
20:42:36 <Alberth> it could carry 3 at least :)
20:43:29 <andythenorth> I think, actually, that yeti + zellepin would mean OpenTTD was complete
20:43:54 <andythenorth> meanwhile this FIRS Arctic Basic economy is quite fun
20:43:59 <andythenorth> I recommend it, unusually
20:44:21 <andythenorth> some of the economies were ‘Full FIRS, only not so big’ :P
20:44:25 <frosch123> i guess when yetis work at the bubble generator, every now and then a yeti escapes
20:44:26 <andythenorth> now they are more unique
20:44:37 <andythenorth> bubble zellepins
20:45:25 <frosch123> the other day i wondered whether a scrabble economy works better than a colour economy
20:45:41 <frosch123> deliver cargos C, A and T
20:46:36 <Alberth> I pondered making a TLA town name set, that would match perfectly
20:48:05 <Alberth> three letter abreviation
20:48:30 <frosch123> i see why people would abbreviate that :)
20:49:01 <Alberth> it is sort of standard to shorten everything to 3 letters
20:49:28 <Alberth> if you check abbreviations, it's usually 3 letters, ie TLA
20:51:06 <Alberth> I find it difficult to talk about town names in MP, so why not have a town name grf that makes that simpler
20:51:25 <frosch123> well Two Letter Abbreviation would be stupid :p
20:51:43 <Alberth> and not enough, by the look of it
20:52:07 <frosch123> anyway, you know about tab completion?
20:52:11 <Alberth> so 3 letters seems like the right solution there
20:52:35 <Alberth> ha, I never use the in-game chat :p
20:53:08 <andythenorth> do we need appropriate vehicles too?
20:53:36 <Alberth> or the long letter hauler
20:54:20 <frosch123> and the syllable cargo ship?
20:55:02 <andythenorth> I like that I almost never have to use the refit button any more
20:55:08 <andythenorth> except for PIPE grf, which doesn’t allow station refit
20:56:48 <Alberth> and that would be a prime candidate for auto-refit anything :p
20:56:57 <Alberth> perhaps excluding people
20:57:23 <frosch123> well, cargo labels being 4 letter spoils it somewhat :p
20:58:26 <Alberth> but there are 3 input cargoes
21:05:32 <andythenorth> airports are very lax in where they’ll build :P
21:05:41 <andythenorth> right across coast tiles, for example
21:08:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's called aircraft carrier
21:09:38 <andythenorth> interesting idea :P
21:11:54 <frosch123> hmm, i guess one could make an eads economy
21:12:18 <frosch123> just with aircraft parts, produced in different places, and assembled in other ones
21:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and the military aircraft never get delivered, and get exponentially more expensive?
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21:18:32 <Zuu> Oh, that's indeed a bug-ish.
21:19:13 <frosch123> oh, it's a new feature?
21:20:00 <frosch123> i just assumed it had always been like that :)
21:20:08 <Zuu> As in not showing libs until you selected an AI that need the lib?
21:20:20 <frosch123> no, only showing ai, no gs
21:21:45 <Zuu> Hmm not sure. What I had in mind is that AI/GS libs maybe should not be filtered away in the AI/GS download list as AI/GS developers might want to download a lib.
21:22:49 <frosch123> i think if you specifically look for a lib, you would go via the general content list
21:23:04 <frosch123> the filtered lists look more user focussed to me
21:23:34 <Zuu> In 1.5.3, the AI/GS button take me to a list of both AIs and GSes.
21:27:49 * andythenorth had better add car transporters to Iron Horse :P
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21:35:40 <frosch123> do the cars on the transporters match the era of the engine in front?
21:36:36 <frosch123> otoh, if you use flatbed wagons, you can also just put heqs on them :p
21:38:28 <andythenorth> they match the build date of the wagon :P
21:38:32 <andythenorth> owing to reasons
21:40:23 <frosch123> you should figure out a way for transporting ships on rail wagons
21:40:29 <frosch123> more reusable graphics :)
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21:40:53 <andythenorth> chop them into pieces :P
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22:31:24 <Zuu> One solution to the content download issue is to instead of having just one ContentType, have a list of ContentType to show.
22:32:15 <Zuu> Though, I think OpenTTD got a small list type of its own.
22:33:10 <frosch123> how about std::bitset<CONTENT_TYPE_END> ?
22:33:20 <frosch123> doesn't it need a set rather than a list?
22:33:40 <Zuu> A set is indeed what it need.
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22:50:45 <andythenorth> mercurial is buggy since I ran port update
22:51:52 <andythenorth> hg st shows modified files (all psds or pngs)
22:51:57 <andythenorth> but hg diff shows no diff
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22:59:39 <Zuu> Hmm std::bitset<CONTENT_TYPE_END>(5) will have bit 0 and bit 2 set.
23:00:04 <Zuu> The CONTENT_TYPE_* is just decimal values. Eg. not one bit for each.
23:00:38 <frosch123> yeah, you cannot pass them via consructor
23:00:43 <frosch123> you have to add them one by one
23:01:30 <frosch123> std::bitset<CONTENT_TYPE_END> contenttypes; contenttypes.set(CONTENT_TYPE_AI); contenttypes.set(CONTENT_TYPE_GAME);
23:01:50 <frosch123> but you would have to do the same in case of a list
23:02:07 <Zuu> Yep that is what I do for AI/GS window. I hoped I could leave the others as is and rely on the constructor in bitset, but apparently it doesn't do the right thing here.
23:02:37 <Zuu> void ShowNetworkContentListWindow(ContentVector *cv, std::bitset<CONTENT_TYPE_END> types)
23:03:16 <Zuu> I could overload it though, and C++ should give that higher prio than the bitset constructor I hope.
23:03:17 <Rubidium> wouldn't a vararg that sets the types in the bitset be a nicer solution?
23:04:51 <Zuu> That would be quite nice at the users of the function.
23:05:29 <frosch123> vararg would either need passing a "count" or a "terminator number"
23:07:31 <Zuu> CONTENT_TYPE_END could be used as terminator. It is a valid value now, but it denotes 'no content selection => all content'
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23:10:19 <Zuu> Hmm, stack overflow suggests that vararg is not recommended in C++. A search for 'vararg' in OpenTTD only give hits in 3rd party squirrel code.
23:11:32 <Zuu> Hmm, however there are many hits for ', ...' so we are using it quite a bit.
23:12:43 <frosch123> i think it is only common for printf stuff
23:13:44 <frosch123> i don't think count or terminator would look good, so i prefer the overload way
23:14:16 <frosch123> i guess we only need two functions, one for 1 contenttype, one for 2 contenttypes
23:14:29 <frosch123> no need to pass the set, or an array or something
23:14:44 <frosch123> actually, going by default value, it only needs one
23:15:07 <frosch123> void ShowNetworkContentListWindow(ContentVector *cv, ContentType type1 = INVALID, ContentType type2 = INVALID)
23:16:23 <Zuu> s/INVALID/CONTENT_TYPE_END/ ?
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