IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-12-06
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01:00:25 <Ryu> Hello any OpenTTD Admins on currently?
01:01:52 <Ryu> Any admins on? I require tech assistance...
01:02:25 <Wolf01> if you tell us your problem maybe we can help you
01:02:39 <Wolf01> also, i require more minerals
01:03:13 <__ln__> NGC3982: have you figured out how to find out what's eating all your money when something seems to be eating all your money and your city goes bankcrupt?
01:04:01 <Ryu> [Wolf] - Im having an issue connecting to a friends public server, its giving me issues connecting but yet other people can connect ot his server.
01:04:25 <Ryu> Ive IP Tracerouted it and the lasts 3 destinations of the connection "Hops"
01:04:58 <Ryu> He's given me full access bypass as a work around to try and fix it but even then I still cant join or even see his server online.
01:05:09 <Wolf01> do you have the same version? does he use some downloadable content/particular resource pack?
01:05:11 <Ryu> Yet I ping his IP over CMD and I get a full packet response
01:05:52 <Ryu> our versions are the same.
01:06:39 <Ryu> I've been troubleshooting this for 2 days straight, unsure what the issue could be.
01:07:52 <Wolf01> did he advertised the master server?
01:08:36 <Wolf01> which name does it have?
01:09:14 <Ryu> -=GSP=- |autoclean_unprotected|Realism|OpenGFX/VAST||GameSitePortal.com
01:09:32 <Ryu> it comes up on the en/servers on the openttd website.
01:09:41 <Ryu> and there are people in it right now
01:10:53 <Ryu> I tested our connect last night, and I made a server on my own little box I have, lil 50$ one.
01:11:00 <Ryu> and he could connect to me with no issues.
01:11:55 <Wolf01> does it throw any error or what?
01:12:39 <Ryu> I cant find his server period on my server listings
01:15:13 <Wolf01> mmm, how many servers do you see?
01:16:21 <Wolf01> did you try "-=" with the search box?
01:17:11 <Ryu> I even attempted to download the mods he uses, which isnt many, and straight from the mod browser ingame
01:17:20 <Ryu> all mods are updated on his end, and I have them all
01:17:27 <Ryu> yet I still cant see his server
01:17:42 <Ryu> even If I DONT search his server, and just look by game year or player amount
01:17:46 <Ryu> His server doesnt come up period.
01:18:49 <Wolf01> if you try to add the server manually does it work?
01:19:39 <Ryu> Ive tried that aswell, doesnt work.
01:21:40 <Ryu> I want to have OpenTTD look into this issue... cause its been 2 days ive done this.
01:21:47 <Wolf01> did you change ports or fiddled with the nat configuration?
01:23:12 <__ln__> sir, is your apostrophe key broken?
01:24:46 <Ryu> I could care less to be honest... I'm semi-pissed Im trying to get into this game and so far its just caused me issues.
01:26:12 <Wolf01> the only thing i could think about, is to try with a clean configuration, if it doesn't help there might be a problem in your network
01:26:25 <Ryu> I have my firewalls off right now
01:26:38 <Ryu> and his he has a bypass for my ip to fully let me through.
01:27:11 <Wolf01> maybe is that bypass which doesn't work well
01:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: the "bypass" may be the critical point here
01:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: the router might not be configured to forward packages properly between two internal interfaces
01:28:15 <Ryu> I dont understand why I cant connect then?
01:28:25 <Ryu> because if it was an issue on my end, he wouldnt be able to connect to me.
01:28:45 <Ryu> I hosted a test server last night on my end and he could connect to me fine.
01:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: the router forwards packages inside-to-inside differently than inside-to-outside
01:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: the issue would be at HIS router then
01:29:22 <Ryu> @Eddi | How could he fix this issue then?.. cause we've been trying for 2 days.
01:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (this is mostly speculation though)
01:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: something about routing between two internal interfaces
01:29:43 <Ryu> im the only one out of eight people that cant connect.
01:29:55 <Wolf01> try removing the bypass just for you
01:30:03 <__ln__> wtf is a bypass anyway?
01:30:35 <Ryu> insted of reading my packets the router attempts to move me right along to connect insted of reading the packets.
01:30:49 <Ryu> what I dont understand is I cant CONNECT OR SEE his server on openTTD.
01:31:04 <Ryu> but I can ping his server threw my CMD and get a full Packet (50/50) response.
01:31:29 <__ln__> so he has a _public_ server yet it needs a 'bypass' made specifically for your ip?
01:31:54 <Ryu> its 100% public, the "Bypass" was an attempt to see if it was a firewall issue.
01:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: other issues might involve ipv6 with improper tunneling
01:33:47 <__ln__> (or simply ipv6) (i don't know whether openttd supports ipv6, though)
01:34:37 <NGC3982> __ln__: Yes, absolutely. Economy has a status screen.
01:34:47 <Ryu> Ive tried manually doing *Add Server* and typing his IP, still no result.
01:34:48 <NGC3982> __ln__: But yes, that is hard to grasp, by design.
01:35:05 <Wolf01> did you add the port too?
01:35:07 <_dp_> are you both in one lan?
01:35:43 <_dp_> if yes what ip are you trying, internal or external?
01:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: i'm afraid we have too little information to help you any further
01:36:07 <Ryu> @Eddi Im trying to give all I can here.
01:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryu: be sure that all involved firewalls allow both UDP and TCP connections
01:39:29 <__ln__> Ryu: are the other people on the same network as the server?
01:39:45 <__ln__> NGC3982: i'll have to look for a status screen next time then.
01:41:26 <_dp_> server is public, I can join just fine
01:43:25 <_dp_> some routers have troubles accessing their own external ip, that may be the problem
01:43:35 <_dp_> not enough information to tell for sure though
01:43:51 <Ryu> So annoyed right now, 7 other people connect fine
01:44:02 <Ryu> not counting randoms that join the server
01:45:03 <_dp_> well, answer lies in how is your network connection different from others.
01:45:12 <Wolf01> the problem might really be the bypass, try to have the same configuration which works for other people
01:55:18 <__ln__> NGC3982: oh, i've seen that view, but even then i had trouble deducing what's causing a negative number in a particular field.
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02:05:30 <drac_boy> still slow day here but mm finished supper a short time ago tho
02:08:04 <drac_boy> btw wolf01 the real reason train fever had me interested was that theres finally something with real transports in it (ever since Jowood died a long time ago and that beside it was never mod-supportable too)
02:09:34 <Wolf01> too bad the economy doesn't even work
02:11:14 <NGC3982> __ln__: Well, that is actually one of the main challenges.
02:12:10 <drac_boy> wolf01 well I wouldn't mind that since I'll be having too much fun making sure traffic doesn't make any bangup effects :)
02:12:38 <Wolf01> no, it's the whole industry thing which doesn't work
02:13:00 <Wolf01> forget anything about ottd, there you need to build point-to-point routes even for passengers
02:13:09 <__ln__> NGC3982: i doubt it's intended to be a main challenge :/
02:13:27 <drac_boy> (oh and on the topic of Jowood .. tbh Traffic Giant was almost ok except for being a narrow list of repetitive vehicles plus the dumb passenger pickup system was messed up (eg you can't except two bus routes to share more than one stop without jamming the first bus that shows up)
02:14:05 <Wolf01> i made a nice train network just to find out that after 50 years it stopped working because everybody started to use their cars -.-
02:14:18 <drac_boy> thankfully I found that in the demo (read: not end up paying for a game that was no good)
02:15:32 <NGC3982> __ln__: Yes, it is. Making sure your economy doesn't rush off into death is like 40% of the game.
02:15:40 <NGC3982> The rest seems to be related to traffic. :-P
02:16:00 <drac_boy> what you two talking about ngc+ln?
02:20:30 <NGC3982> It's almost uncanny how much it replaces SimCity
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02:20:54 <NGC3982> With everything horrible about that game being absolutely flawless in Cities Skylines.
02:26:00 <__ln__> must be because Skylines was made in finland
02:27:44 <drac_boy> oh yeah wolf01 almost forgot but simutrans pretty much showed the proper way to route bus passengers .. too bad that even after quite a while they still haven't quite "fixed" the date aspect (almost behaves the same as the option:neverexpire+cht:allyear combo in ttdxp basically)
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02:29:45 <Wolf01> i played simutrans so many years ago that i could even say i didn't even play it, but i remember something about the routes :P
02:32:28 <drac_boy> well yeah it was easy to have multiply connections and the passengers still would only use the effective one instead of "just the first one they see" which other games always do
02:33:34 <drac_boy> only one thing (which I suspect is in the same category as the date thing) was how some of the industries didn't seem to exactly always accept the cargo they say they would .. oh well at least passengers always worked
02:34:53 <drac_boy> that and if you see coal mines ... coal trains are fun :P
02:38:39 <drac_boy> wolf01 either way would you like a game that does have transportation but your job really is more about routing&signalling "programming" rather than actually moving cargos?
02:40:31 <Wolf01> i actually prefer more action than management :P
02:40:50 <drac_boy> wolf01 heh fair enough .. want know what it is tho? :)
02:41:26 <Wolf01> some weird ottdcoop server?
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02:44:09 <drac_boy> http://www.jbss.de/hpg_eng.htm that actually .. and tbh to our own but I'm glad that he only simply added new features once in a while but never changing the major graphic or so .. nothing like a tinkering-fun (in my word) game that can run on almost anything except an old crappy beige 486 ;)
02:44:52 <drac_boy> even after poking around once in a while for quite some time (a few years I'll have to say for sure) I still haven't fully discovered the entire signalling system :P fun that way heh
02:45:37 <drac_boy> oh and wolf01 its not just about moving trains ..you can actually instruct a locomotive to shunt wagons in a particular way too
02:46:59 <Wolf01> i think i tried it before finding transport tycoon
02:47:53 <Wolf01> i didn't understand anything about it, maybe because it wasn't english :P
02:48:13 <drac_boy> mm yeah .. well I think its the only game (I don't know how to look online in other languages anyway heh) where you can actually split/join trains instead of just simply run fixed trains ... admittly simsig does suggest joins+splits but you can't even actually see any trains at all so its a bit moot
02:48:54 <drac_boy> and railroadtycoon doesn't count because you can just randomly pick wagons .. so unrealistic!
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02:51:52 <Wolf01> also i should go to bed, or i'll be very sleepy tomorrow
02:53:06 <drac_boy> that reminds me I should check where I've programmed things so far in the last save...somewhere
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03:04:33 <drac_boy> anyway going for now
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10:36:34 <andythenorth> I was going to say 2-cargo ships would be good
10:36:40 <andythenorth> but probably they wouldn't
10:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there are lots of ways to get them wrong
10:44:26 <Alberth> coupling number of cargos to number of sprites doesn't make a lot of sense
10:45:07 <andythenorth> I want pax + mail ships
10:45:24 <andythenorth> but what are the chances that the amount of pax + mail is ‘correct’ for my route? o_O
10:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> people rarely complain about planes
10:46:13 <Alberth> in my view, in the optimal solution, the newgrf should decide what cargoes and how many
10:46:24 <Alberth> very few people use planes
10:46:34 <Alberth> and those that do, serve cities
10:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, planes are just always full
10:47:21 <Alberth> so theoretically, you'd have the option of 32 different cargoes in your vehicle
10:47:28 <Alberth> no idea about feasibility though
10:47:57 <Alberth> or rather how much breaks if you decouple sprites and cargo type :p
10:49:14 <andythenorth> it was once proposed something like cargo compartments
10:49:27 <andythenorth> where the vehicle defines n compartments, with x capacity
10:49:39 <andythenorth> and the player can refit each compartment
10:49:51 <andythenorth> it would be a mess for trains though
10:50:07 <Taede> trains already have compartments
10:51:39 <andythenorth> wagon-based ships? o_O
10:55:25 <Taede> would work for barges being towed by a towboat...
10:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> we have that already, it's called wetrails
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11:58:22 <Wolf01> meh... "hey cortana, launch skype" "what do you want? 1. skype; 2. video skype"...
12:03:26 <Wolf01> the stupid redundancy of microsoft bothers me
12:04:55 <Wolf01> every time i set up my system in a way everything it works well, here is another update for you which destroys the peaceful mood and starts another war between applications and drivers, and cortana too decides to enter the conflict
12:06:20 <Wolf01> also i can't understand how the new apps work, i mean the "messages" and the "skype video"... why not just upgrade skype?
12:08:14 <Alberth> the infamous "one interface suits all"
12:16:20 <Flygon> We already HAD a "One interface that suits all"
12:16:28 <Flygon> It's called "Every flipping Windows between 95 and XP"
12:16:31 <Flygon> And it worked, god dammit
12:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: because tablets and phones
12:18:08 <Flygon> Those 'things'. If I should ever so have to consider them the dignity of denotating them a designation of which that implies they were ever productively additional to the usage of my standard everyday computing life.
12:18:24 <Wolf01> i'm not against the interface change, just the redundancy with new apps which doesn't even work
12:18:32 <Flygon> Tablet and Phone Interfaces stay on Phones
12:18:42 <Flygon> Desktop Interfaces stay on Desktops
12:18:45 <Flygon> Is it really that difficult?
12:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i'm fairly sure the answer to that is "yes"
12:19:37 <Alberth> there is no money in desktops, everybody already has a copy of windows
12:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think microsoft ever made money on (home) desktops. it's all in "just get everybody to use it, so big companies will pay us any amount of money we demand to have it on all their computers"
12:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why OEM windows is so cheap. it's the computer equivalent of a drug dealer's "the first dose is free"
12:40:54 <argoneus> any idea which world settings are good?
12:41:00 <argoneus> I want to have to actually leave my base
12:41:07 <argoneus> with the default settings there's no incentive to
12:41:35 <Wolf01> the incentive is "when you'll finish resources, you must find new ones"
12:42:18 <argoneus> yeah if you saw my starting base
12:42:26 <argoneus> it'd take like 20 hours to run out
12:42:44 <argoneus> we already had the lategame tech
12:42:48 <argoneus> and it was like halfway through
12:43:08 <Wolf01> yes, i just started to expand too, and i'm at ~35 hours
12:44:04 <Wolf01> now i'm exploring for big hives, as i need to build the definitive power armor
12:44:57 <Wolf01> and when i find a nice ore patch, i'll start to build a mine to be connected later with the main settlement
12:49:24 * andythenorth has a desktop OS on his laptop
12:49:36 <andythenorth> and stupid tablet / phone OS on tablet / phone
12:50:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: supplementary goals in BB? o_O
12:51:35 <Alberth> trying to merge SV/NCG into BB eh? :)
12:53:04 <andythenorth> NCG is mostly fun in MP, with high targets
12:53:18 <andythenorth> SV is good for forcing insane routes in one city
12:54:09 <Alberth> ot rather I cannot see how you do the other ones
12:54:09 <andythenorth> collect x% from an industry?
12:55:26 <Alberth> or you have to do weird tricks like renewing trains and such
12:55:52 <andythenorth> ‘own 50 boats’ :P
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12:56:17 <Alberth> I don't think the current goals are ready for such additions, it would need more work
12:57:11 <Alberth> quite trivial too, assuming the usual ridiculous amount of money :p
12:58:21 <andythenorth> there’s nothing wrong with current cargo goal
12:58:27 <andythenorth> just variety might be nice
13:02:14 <andythenorth> growing cities seems really boring
13:02:19 <andythenorth> they grow anyway :P
13:03:10 <andythenorth> ‘deliver x amount to an industry and transport away y amount’ seems ok
13:10:19 * andythenorth wonders about replicating the ‘connect A and B’ part of subsidies directly
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13:12:05 <Alberth> current cargo monitor fails for that
13:12:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you consider more indirect goals?
13:12:37 <Alberth> it currently stores received and sent cargo for each endpoint
13:13:05 <Alberth> if you want "connects", end number of endpoint combinations explodes
13:13:17 <frosch123> instead of "transport iron ore from mine A to mill B", make "increase steel prodution around town C by 1000 per year"
13:13:38 <frosch123> that leaves options to pick a steel mill, use multiple or fund new ones
13:14:18 <frosch123> the GS could then subdivide the map into areas and pick places where currently no suich cargo is produced
13:14:45 <frosch123> heading for distributed production of all secondary cargous throughout the map
13:15:24 <frosch123> also the "more" part, would solve the duplicate goals thingie :p
13:15:33 <andythenorth> that’s quite nice
13:15:44 <frosch123> if there is already 500 per year, you can just increase the goal to 1000 per year
13:18:13 <frosch123> depending on the stage of the game (early/late game), the script could also count the primary cargo sources in the map areas, and only give goals for areas with primary supplies nearby
13:18:43 <Alberth> sort of SV everywhere :)
13:19:11 <frosch123> yeah :p but also sort of subsidies and colonization
13:19:25 <frosch123> "produce stuff where nothing is produced yet"
13:20:50 <frosch123> could also work in multiplayer...
13:21:23 <frosch123> via storybook or something you could have a "market" for goals, which you can acquire
13:21:55 <frosch123> as in: you do not randomly get new goals, but you select your goals from a global list for all companies
13:22:04 <frosch123> and you better pick the good ones before they do
13:22:32 <frosch123> but i am not sure whether the story book has button yet
13:34:40 <frosch123> just call it communism
13:47:28 <frosch123> truebrain told me to fix eints authenticaiton and use "uid" instead of "cn" for user names
13:47:47 <frosch123> but in my test ldap isntallation phpldapadmin does not even offer me to enter a "uid"
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14:02:49 <frosch123> i guess i have to fallback to patch eints locally to use whatever phpldapadmin creates
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14:16:19 <Alberth> basically, write an eints ldap interface
14:18:57 <frosch123> i think the problem with ldap is that all the documentation is theoretical
14:19:07 <frosch123> and completely disjunct from reality
14:19:38 <frosch123> the web interface allows me to enter bullshit like licence plate numbers, but not groupmemberships
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14:28:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I had to install a few plugins to integrate LDAP with PAM; POSIX users and POSIX groups
14:28:53 <TrueBrain> possibly any of those introduced uid as primary shit :P
14:29:18 <TrueBrain> I remember it was very annoying to set it up .. as like you said: all documentation is theoretical :P
14:29:22 <frosch123> i think it's just phpldapadming that causes the mess
14:29:26 <TrueBrain> just one huge database :P
14:29:36 <frosch123> it lists "uid" as required for posixAccount
14:29:47 <frosch123> when i create an account i can actually enter one
14:30:07 <frosch123> but after i hit commit it did not create a posixAccount but some inetperson
14:30:10 <frosch123> which does not have uid
14:30:29 <frosch123> so, it does not at all do what it says, and it lets me enter things which it then discards
14:30:36 <TrueBrain> but you have to add posixAccount to it too, as object
14:30:49 <TrueBrain> at least, here it has both
14:30:55 <frosch123> it says inetorgperson (structral) and posixaccount
14:31:05 <TrueBrain> and uid is not a field here either
14:31:08 <TrueBrain> the entry is an uid
14:31:30 <TrueBrain> as in, you cannot change the uid at all
14:31:38 <TrueBrain> (basically, the dn has the uid)
14:31:42 <frosch123> well, it does not even display it :p
14:31:48 <TrueBrain> in the top blue bar
14:31:55 <TrueBrain> or when you press: select internal attributes
14:31:58 <frosch123> no, the dn always lists "cn"
14:32:02 <frosch123> the "uid" is nowhere to be seen
14:32:11 <TrueBrain> most likely some setting
14:32:21 <TrueBrain> as then you dn was created with a cn, not with an uid
14:32:32 <TrueBrain> but good chance I setup the LDAP for OpenTTD wrongly too
14:32:36 <TrueBrain> as documentation is .. poorly :D
14:32:41 <frosch123> well, it would all be fine if only the webinterface was bs
14:32:52 <frosch123> but the console tools did not convice me either
14:33:07 <frosch123> the console tools felt like git :p
14:33:24 <TrueBrain> I am seriously happy it "just works"
14:33:32 <frosch123> as in: you first need someone to tell you that commit cache, staging area and index are the same thing
14:33:49 <frosch123> because without the docs are just glibberish, as they randomly talk about one or the other
14:35:00 <TrueBrain> owh, OpenTTD also uses "shadowAccount" btw
14:35:19 <frosch123> does that one add memberOf ?
14:35:28 <frosch123> because that one i did not have either :p
14:35:40 <TrueBrain> no, memberOf was annoying to activate
14:36:00 <TrueBrain> in slapd.conf: memberof-group-oc openttdGrou
14:36:12 <TrueBrain> and there is a memberof overlay and moduleload
14:36:17 <TrueBrain> so its a seperate module ;)
14:36:23 <frosch123> see, apparently everyone uses ldap for user authentication
14:36:35 <frosch123> but apparantly there is not even a standard for defining group memberships
14:36:45 <frosch123> i really have no idea how ldap can even remotely work :p
14:36:49 <TrueBrain> it took me a long time to find something I could work with
14:37:27 <TrueBrain> there are several "memberof" plugins, I now see/read
14:38:55 <TrueBrain> yeah, I totally forgot memberOf isnt vanilla ..
14:39:01 <TrueBrain> dynlist of memberof module or something you need
14:39:06 <TrueBrain> which fills those lists for you
14:41:38 <frosch123> at least vanilla knows about licence plates
14:41:49 <TrueBrain> important information, not?
14:41:53 <TrueBrain> will be the next mandatory signup question
14:42:17 <blathijs> I just created a custom schema to get the attributes I needed, puzzling with the existing object classes was a bitch :-)
14:44:18 <frosch123> yeah, so the lesson is: "authentication via ldap" is about as precise as "import of xml data"
14:45:09 <frosch123> "our old software can export data as xml, can you import that?" - "sure, we can import xml"
14:46:07 <TrueBrain> just think of ldap as just another database engine
14:46:32 <TrueBrain> table definitions are not preset
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15:10:21 <Alberth> of course, authentication based on type of cookies that are brought is relevant
15:33:22 <andythenorth> aluminium in torpedo cars
15:33:28 * andythenorth has no respect for realisms
15:38:12 <argoneus> frosch123 Wolf01 is it just me, or do splitters "eat" things?
15:38:16 <argoneus> sometimes i feel like my iron just disappears
15:38:21 <argoneus> like it goes in but doesn't go out
15:40:20 <frosch123> when you modify stuff, something stuff goes into inventory
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16:04:13 <andythenorth> my Bee needs to be busier
16:04:32 <andythenorth> 10 goals is not enough :D
16:20:49 <Alberth> you do have 10 goals?
16:21:09 <andythenorth> I don’t fulfill all of them
16:21:11 <Alberth> new bb does some testing first, so it takes a while before it approves new ones
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16:56:16 <andythenorth> FIRS arctic chains are now really illogical
17:04:07 <frosch123> water -> salt, water+salt -> saltwater
17:04:40 <drac_boy> what do you exactly need saltwater for?
17:05:55 <V453000> well salt can probably get sugar graphics
17:06:23 <frosch123> V453000: no, whenever there is a discussion about cargo chains, i give the stupidest part of bobs mods :)
17:06:40 <V453000> xd dont know bobs mods sorry :)
17:07:04 <V453000> from what I saw, I found the hyper realistic insane amount of ingredients and intermediates for everything
17:08:20 <frosch123> well, i wanted more cargos :) and there was only the choice for default and ecs. factorio has no firs or yeti yet
17:09:03 <V453000> idk, I tried dytech but it didnt seem super interesting either
17:09:07 <V453000> just more shit, but ye
17:10:12 <frosch123> V453000: well, not only the game falls for the same traps as ottd (diagonal belts, diagonal underground belts, train timetables and partial loading), ... but also the mods :p
17:10:33 <frosch123> bobs mods is just like ecs
17:10:50 <frosch123> it's one of the first, and loaded with realism bullshit
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17:13:24 <Zuu> Sonuds like you talk factorio. I tried to make a train cary orders for specifc cargo in a wagon which decides if eg. smart inserters should be added.
17:14:17 <Zuu> Though, now I need a smart inserter to load only when there is a demand and there is a stone on the same network. And I haven't figured out how the combinators work yet.
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17:15:26 <Zuu> As I do not have the mod that allow you to read contents in wagons, I need to unload my order signal items to look at them in a smart chest and then move the train a few tiles forward and load it back again. :-)
17:15:58 <V453000> well you can assign wagon cargo slots to specific cargoes
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17:16:19 <V453000> just like the toolbar
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17:16:49 <Zuu> Oh great. That will solve my issue of it loading cargo to the wrong wagon when the train has moved a half car forward.
17:17:47 <frosch123> huh, i did not know that either
17:23:35 <V453000> well there you go :P idk if it is .12 thing
17:23:40 <Zuu> Really useful though for this utility train to have per-cargo type limits.
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17:30:57 <argoneus> V453000: can you make railroad through gates?
17:31:21 <argoneus> i dont have the resources yet
17:31:26 <argoneus> im just wondering to see if I should bother with walls
17:31:32 <argoneus> or if there's gonna be a gap
17:33:40 <argoneus> by the way, im trying to understand the production menu (P)
17:33:47 <argoneus> but I don't know how to read it
17:33:54 <argoneus> if a bar is full does it mean im not producing enough?
17:36:19 <V453000> I believe the bars there are just comparison to the highest produced product?
17:37:20 <argoneus> im not sure how to read from it if im producing enough
17:37:37 <argoneus> like if the production and consumption are the same, does it mean i need to produce more?
17:39:23 <V453000> I would not translate it that importantly
17:39:45 <V453000> if you have a factory which immediately consumes a product, it will always be 100%
17:40:05 <argoneus> i still swear splitters are bugged
17:40:10 <argoneus> they seem to randomly consume my iron
17:40:16 <argoneus> like 3 go in, 2 go out
17:41:00 <V453000> that sounds very wtf but I havent ever seen anything like that happen
17:51:19 <V453000> I am fairly sure it is your mind going weird :P
17:54:22 <argoneus> too bad trains cant 180
17:54:48 <Zuu> You need an engine in each end if you want it to go in both directions.
17:55:55 <Zuu> It will make the train a bit heaviyer as you have to pull around the backwards engine. But allows terminious stations.
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19:20:44 * andythenorth wonders if Baldy is ok
19:35:36 <argoneus> do you guys use any mods for factorio?
19:35:48 <argoneus> RSO and FARS seem popular but not sure if I want them
19:36:40 <argoneus> enemies are part of the fun
19:36:51 <argoneus> i cant imagine playing without very big and very many enemy bases
19:37:53 <Zuu> I'm not much in for killing creatures in games.
19:39:24 <Zuu> Or seeing dead ones laying around on the ground.
19:40:24 <argoneus> ill probably buy this game
19:40:28 <argoneus> played it nonstop the past 2 days
19:40:37 <argoneus> that's really rare with me
19:40:58 <argoneus> are there any +- server requirements?
19:41:01 <argoneus> when you have a lot of enemies
19:41:42 <argoneus> V453000: are you there?
19:44:04 * Zuu is good at sending away is train but forget to board it first.
19:45:05 <Zuu> It is good though that you can board trains with speed > 0. :-)
19:45:50 <argoneus> the last time I tried that the train boarded me
19:46:04 <Zuu> Jumping of a train with speed > 0 is not a good idea as it may hurt you.
19:47:19 <__ln__> did you mean jumping of a train or jumping off a train
19:47:56 <frosch123> Zuu: the most weird thing is that you can also bord the wagons :p
19:48:59 <Zuu> Yeah, that is uesful when you fail to catch the engine but still want to go with the train to where it heads. If you get on a wagon to way back you cannot click on the engine to change where it goes and of course you cannot drive it. :-)
19:49:43 <frosch123> yes, that's how i found out that you can jump into a wagon :p
19:52:22 <argoneus> frosch123 frosch123 what mods do you use?
19:54:52 <frosch123> i downloaded a bunch to try out, but before i actually came around to trying them, the api changed and they were all broken
19:54:59 <frosch123> since them i have been too lazy to redownload them
19:55:37 <frosch123> the most interesting one currently is the one that changes how minerals spawn
19:55:52 <V453000> argoneus: if you play a VERY long game, sure cpu is getting slower
19:56:30 <frosch123> "resource spwaner overhaul" seemed to fit my playstyle
19:56:43 <argoneus> V453000: I wanted to ask you
19:56:46 <argoneus> are the devs nice people?
19:56:59 <frosch123> i also downloaded farl, but well, it will be obsolte with the new rail building in 0.13
19:57:13 <argoneus> ok ill buy the game then
19:57:36 <frosch123> i tried that bob stuff, but most of it is just not how i play the game
19:57:44 <V453000> I cant imagine people who make a game "because they want to make a great game"
19:57:53 <argoneus> V453000: ever been to the android app store?
19:58:04 <argoneus> they want to make stuff to get some quick money
19:58:08 <V453000> it is very nice to see after you browse some other games which have clear aim to make $$$
19:58:17 <argoneus> i dont like giving money to cashgrabbers
19:58:25 <argoneus> but factorio is too complex to be a cashgrab
19:59:19 <V453000> it is awesome, basically people who just do what they love, and the money is just the thing which allows them to do that and nothing else
20:00:23 <argoneus> i regret not trying the game sooner
20:00:26 <argoneus> i always thought it looked shit
20:00:48 <argoneus> but they should hurry up and go steam
20:00:54 <V453000> well, it is only getting better ;) both functionally and visually
20:01:02 <argoneus> there shouldn't be a problem getting this greenlit
20:01:03 <V453000> steam is somewhere end of january
20:01:15 <V453000> why is steam so important? just to have it in your library?
20:01:22 <V453000> the game will be no different on steam
20:01:32 <argoneus> i know but i like having things in one place
20:01:37 <argoneus> instead of having to remember 50 logins
20:01:46 <V453000> use the same login data? :D
20:01:53 <argoneus> that's what I already do but I don't tell anyone
20:02:25 <V453000> I do understand what is the gain for us to be on steam ... more sales, easier distribution, ...
20:02:32 <V453000> but for players, I dont get it as much
20:02:43 <V453000> apparently I am underestimating the laziness of "have shit in 1 library":D
20:02:51 <V453000> I myself love steam, dont get me wrong :)
20:02:52 <argoneus> i also have most friends on steam
20:02:54 <argoneus> and can see what they play
20:03:04 <V453000> yeah that is another thing
20:03:04 <argoneus> I can make money back by selling the trading cards
20:04:04 <argoneus> do you reckon I can run a server with 512 mb ram?
20:04:22 <V453000> I dont really know much about that, but I would assume you can
20:04:48 <frosch123> most memory will be in graphics
20:04:52 <argoneus> by the way do you want to be steam m8s
20:04:56 <frosch123> ottd servers also need no memory, only cpu
20:05:03 <argoneus> frosch123: the headless version shouldnt use graphics
20:05:12 <argoneus> if it tries to load sprites ill be sad
20:05:17 <argoneus> since i dont have any graphics on my vps
20:05:38 <V453000> I am thinking the headless version does exactly that, no gfx
20:05:41 <argoneus> oh this reminds me, is there a way to wget the binaries?
20:06:00 <argoneus> or is it behind login
20:07:02 <argoneus> oh there's already a stripped package for linux
20:17:44 <Zuu> argoneus: If you get the game, you get a end-game goal - build a rocket silo and some rockets which require some decent amount of resources regardless of enemies.
20:18:16 <V453000> which is truly endless XD
20:18:38 <V453000> launching 40 000 rockets , ...
20:23:44 <Alberth> just launch the server :p
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20:27:03 <argoneus> is there a working RSO for 0.12.20?
20:27:22 <V453000> idk I dislike RSO, I just set everything on very low frequency and im fine
20:27:29 <argoneus> what's wrong with RSO
20:27:52 <V453000> it has the thing 'further away = more yield of resources'
20:28:14 <V453000> which means nothing else but "expand only in 1 direction because it is more efficient"
20:28:24 <V453000> yeah, at first it sounds nice
20:28:29 <V453000> once you think about it it is totally wtf
20:29:04 <V453000> if it was further away-worse yield, it would be more interesting. Motivating circular expansion and making the game harder as time goes
20:29:26 <V453000> also it seems to me like it makes everything spread out WAY the fuck over the top
20:30:01 <V453000> but to each their own, many people use RSO apparently
20:32:38 <argoneus> not sure if RSO works
20:32:44 <argoneus> nodes near the beginning have 300 yield per tile
20:32:45 <argoneus> is that about right?
20:33:51 <argoneus> not sure how to test if the mod wrks ;_;
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20:36:22 <frosch123> i haven't tried rso yet, but i hoped it would reduce the variety in the size
20:36:55 <frosch123> of the mining areas
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20:41:14 <argoneus> im not sure how rso is supposed to work
20:41:19 <argoneus> there's still like 20k resources per drill
20:49:03 <V453000> setting probably matter
20:49:13 <V453000> if not, there probably is some config.lua in the zip of the mod
20:49:19 <V453000> you can edit values there, likely
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21:39:38 <Aphid> I've been trying some things out, and is it me or does YETI have some sort of growth cap when you use slow trains?
21:46:42 <Aphid> I get a theoretical max. of 2250 people out of using the full chain based around one town and one of each industry with stations at 75% rating. Somehow the amount of cargo that's being 'leaked' is too much. Or am I supposed to use an imbalanced setup, like ~20:1 ratio of food to building materials?
21:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Aphid: i don't know how YETI works, but faster trains can give you higher ratings
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21:52:26 <Aphid> Yeah I get that. Though if you're playing in like 1850 there's no train fast enough to raise ratings
21:53:18 <Aphid> I'm trying to replace the manual settings for cargo requirements in my CB script with pre-set settings for each 'industry GRF' and climate. Because in the end you're computing those anyway based on what your map produces.
21:53:37 <Aphid> Makes it work 'outside the box' instead of people having to mess with cargo IDs and stuff
21:53:57 <andythenorth> there is no way YETI could react to train speed
21:54:04 <andythenorth> it’s not in the newgrf spec
21:54:31 <andythenorth> unless there’s some insane way by measuring vars at nearby stations, which I know V won’t have used
21:54:54 <Aphid> Like yeti is a sort of 'loop system' right? Cargo goes from 4X to 2A to 2AA to 2X to 4X
21:55:45 <andythenorth> I only looked at the sprites ;)
21:55:56 <Aphid> For the loop to be 'self reinforcing' which means that one YETI dude feeds more than 2.5 people, that one YETI dude needs to produce 0.5 units of food.
21:58:18 <Aphid> But at each step, you lose between 8% and 25% of the cargo. You also need to provide machinery, as it doubles output at one leg of the cycle, yet at the cost of only ~16/54th of your workers (provided the machinery chain also supplies itself correctly and uses all six machinery chain industries, otherwise it's a loss).
22:01:34 <Aphid> (3/4)^4*2*2/3*19/20 ~ 0.4007 though, so 0.4 food per yeti dude. That feeds 2 people, which sadly only produce 0.8 yeti dude.
22:02:12 <andythenorth> I have ‘supplies trucks’ in Iron Horse and Road Hog, carrying farm supplies, engineering supplies. Now I have ‘vehicles’ cargo, should they carry that also?
22:05:33 <Aphid> Shouldn't you use 'cargo class' to determine what a vehicle carries?
22:07:04 <andythenorth> or yes, but also no
22:07:33 <Alberth> george does in ecs, afaik
22:08:48 <andythenorth> it was a leading question I think
22:08:59 <andythenorth> teddy-bear coding, for a decision I’d already mostly made :P
22:09:44 <Aphid> Though it's a bit weird, GS cargo class documentation has no mention of the OVERSIZED, POWDERIZED, NON_POURABLE, and NEO_BULK classes
22:10:01 <Aphid> So gamescripts can't check for those, apparently.
22:10:25 <andythenorth> is it time for a class discussion again? o_O
22:10:49 <Aphid> But I'm wondering how do you do the cargos for vehicles then. Since there's like many diffrent industry sets...
22:11:06 <Aphid> Can you choose between cargo class and hardcoded cargo ID or something?
22:11:59 <andythenorth> dunno if NoGo has label support, probably though
22:12:00 <Aphid> Ah, like PASS for passengers
22:12:34 <Aphid> I think that's probably the issue sometimes though. Like YETI defines a weird label (YETI) for one of its cargos
22:12:53 <Aphid> a bunch of trainsets won't support it since the wagons are defined using cargo labels, not classes
22:13:07 <Aphid> (there's no wagons in for example Japanset that can carry yeti dudes)
22:13:32 <Alberth> bunch of trainsets are very old
22:15:29 <Aphid> Thing is when you can use some sort of abstraction layer like those cargo classes you don't need to update your train set when there's a new industry set, as long as you can support all classes.
22:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the way this works changed a while back, and before that it was a lot more cumbersome, so a lot of sets did not use it this way
22:16:30 <Aphid> But when the abstraction is not specific enough it can be a problem.
22:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, some sets just got it completely wrong
22:17:49 <slaca> where can i find a changelog of trunk? I would love to see what has been changed since last year. But I see only some translation in the trunk changelog
22:19:11 <Aphid> Remove the last question amrk
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22:24:56 <Aphid> Heh.. now for the hard part: FIRS analysis.
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22:40:17 <andythenorth> Aphid: you know about online FIRS docs?
22:45:00 <Aphid> Yeah but what Im' doing is a little more complicated
22:45:11 <Aphid> Say you have a really big map, taking limit N-> infinity
22:45:19 <Aphid> And you efficiently connect all the firs industries
22:45:26 <Aphid> Then what's the ratio between final products?
22:46:27 <Aphid> As far as I understand you have a bit of wiggle room because a lot of industries you can 'choose' where to send stuff
22:49:23 <Aphid> E.g. coal can become either 1:1 building mats, or 1:1/2:1/2 engi/farm supplies, or 1:1/2:1/2 goods/manufacturing supplies. The manufacturing supplies can become either goods, food, or alcohol. So coal can make goods, food, alcohol, building materials.
22:52:29 <Aphid> Hmm... though there's 5 ways to make food with MS, and only 1 way to make alcohol.
22:53:11 <Aphid> I'm just going to 'assume' equal flow to all 'users' except for ES calc.
22:54:08 <andythenorth> if you wanted to get really ‘accurate’ input for your calc
22:54:25 <andythenorth> you could patch FIRS, the docs compile could also put out the production ratios at each industry
22:54:37 <andythenorth> I think that’s overkill, but eh
22:54:46 <andythenorth> it’s all there in python, and is trivial to adjust
22:55:14 <andythenorth> meanwhile, ‘vehicles’ is a bit of an odd cargo :P
22:55:29 <andythenorth> my trucks have 45t capacity, and nominally, 1 vehicle = 1t
22:55:35 <andythenorth> so a single truck is loaded with 45 vehicles
22:56:04 <Supercheese> eh just Tetris a bunch of Minis together in a really large box truck
22:56:15 <slaca> where can be tree growing disabled? cant find it in advanced settings
22:56:16 <Supercheese> might not quite fir 45, but would be a few
22:56:17 <Aphid> Aren't vehicles an 'OVERSIZED' cargo though?
22:56:27 <Supercheese> oh I am just joking around
22:56:34 <Aphid> So you could reduce capacity for all of those, and then it carries less vehicles
22:56:35 <Supercheese> box trucks probably won't take vehicles
22:57:11 <andythenorth> means the vehicle sets have to special case vehicles
22:57:16 <andythenorth> which makes vehicles daft
22:58:17 <andythenorth> hmm, I can’t afford a pyrite smelter yet :P
23:00:58 <Aphid> hmm.. this is really cool though, I made a spreadsheet that does this thing for me...
23:01:17 <Aphid> apparently 1t coal becomes 15 litres of alcohol, amongst other things
23:01:45 <andythenorth> coal -> steel -> mnsp -> alcohol?
23:01:55 <Aphid> probably via that branch
23:02:55 <Supercheese> I take it that isn't accounting for bonuses from multiple input deliveries
23:05:00 <andythenorth> it’s slightly nuts that this could all be resolved by a calculation :P
23:05:15 <andythenorth> just using output from the compile
23:07:03 <Aphid> Well, it's not 'entirely' solvable easily. Actually I still have to factor in engineering supplies,
23:07:22 <Aphid> which can't be produced from all starting cargoes. so I have to adjust stuff like 'coal' downwards and 'livestock' upwards for that
23:07:52 <slaca> does anyone know how to disable tree growth?
23:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Aphid: what exactly is it that you want to solve for?
23:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Aphid: how to get maximum amount of cargo?
23:08:43 <Zuu> slaca: Lookup where it happens in code and comment it out and recompile?
23:09:05 <Aphid> Eh no... I'm trying to get some good default params for GS that makes towns want 'stuff' to grow.
23:09:05 <Zuu> Or look through all settings.
23:09:13 <Aphid> I want a good balance of 'stuff'. E.g. matching the industry set
23:09:24 <Aphid> Spreadsheet can get me what that 'balance' has to be.
23:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want roughly equal amounts of TE_FOOD and TE_WATER cargos?
23:10:03 <Aphid> Depends on the industry set.
23:10:13 <Aphid> Say you generate a map and add up all the cargo amounts produced.
23:10:27 <Aphid> For example, the map I genned now for FIRS has 7747 oil and only 1949 coal
23:10:38 <Aphid> So I should require more of the products from OIL than from COAL.
23:11:13 <Aphid> For example the default temperate maps have a ratio of 183 goods to 27 valuables to 89 coal.
23:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Aphid: but that is the INPUT of your calculation. i want to know what your intended OUTPUT
23:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. the condition where you think the system is "balanced"
23:24:55 * andythenorth fixes map colours
23:25:16 <andythenorth> april suddenly looks very close :(
23:26:11 <andythenorth> less repeating goals :P
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