IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-29
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00:01:02 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff heh yeah I could imagine that. btw photos are hard to find but there were some instances in usa where eg theres two unrelated locomotives on a train .. eg an Emd E9 just to provide the headend power alone and an Alco Century providing the traction power alone
00:01:54 <drac_boy> yeah .. the E9 would have been too slow to even get the train up to much speed if much of its engine was driven to the HEP circuit hence the unusual duo :)
00:03:08 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff btw I guess it could come down to different operations in history but usa never really had any sort of electric genset wagons (as it was always assumed this was on the locomotive itself) ...
00:03:29 <drac_boy> although you would find some converted boxcar/etc gensets for tourist train purposes nowaday
00:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> some east german cars had generators mounted to the wheels, to provide heating even if the engine can't
00:04:56 <sim-al2> Amtrak built a few HEP cars early on, those had Detroit Diesel generators in them; they were often built from old RPO/express cars
00:05:13 <Hiddenfunstuff> Some of the older express cars had generators mounted to the axles aswell
00:05:28 <drac_boy> sim-a12 ah ok didn't think amtrak actually had these but cheers
00:05:33 <Hiddenfunstuff> They mostly powered lighting and low voltage stuff
00:05:38 <sim-al2> Most of the world's passenger cars had axle generators, charging the car batteries to provide lights and ventilation
00:06:09 <sim-al2> Sometimes they even powered air conditioning, but those put systems put a heavy load on the batteries
00:06:21 <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah electric lights were a low load that was easy to get from axle generator-battery setup
00:07:03 <sim-al2> Much safer than kerosene lamps too :)
00:07:22 <Hiddenfunstuff> The most hilarious thing in the gen-cars here.. They have seats outside it
00:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> air condition was not really a thing in germany until the 1990s
00:07:43 <Hiddenfunstuff> Theres nearly half of the car lenght's of seats inside.. the generator and batteries taking up the other half
00:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you can notice cars with air conditioning by the fact that the windows don't open
00:08:26 <sim-al2> In the US, certain long-distance trains had them early on, starting with ice block systems around the 1930's (requires ice houses along the line), then steam-expansion systems
00:09:12 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: of course they don't open, else people would open them and complain that refrigeration doesn't work
00:09:17 <sim-al2> There were ice houses because the long-distance food/produce trains needed them, as mechanical refrigerators were very primitive
00:10:20 <sim-al2> Yes, I've seen that many recent trains actually have reintroduced opening windows (but only a few), as there have been some incidients where the power failed and passengers overheated
00:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but if there were a way to open them, they wouldn't be death traps beyond 42°C outside temperature
00:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the necessity for non-opening windows comes from pressurization for high-speed tunnels
00:12:33 <Hiddenfunstuff> shouldnt there be some manual vents that you could open up?
00:12:50 <sim-al2> At some point in the 1950's cars with mechanical air conditioning powered by the batteries appeared, but I suppose the batteries must have been difficult because modern systems almost always use some kind of train-lined power
00:13:32 <sim-al2> It seems lots of regular, non-sealed cars lost their opening windows too, but they are reappearing
00:14:31 <Hiddenfunstuff> Atleast here the new cars have air conditioning (obviously) That takes its power directly from the train's 1500v service output.. But there is gravitational ventilation when the cars are unplugged
00:15:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> Which is quite noticeable when you sit in a car packed with passenger and the train runs to the other end of the carriages or disconnects for a moment from the cars.. the A/C stops and after about 5 mins itse quite hot and thick air inside
00:18:24 <drac_boy> sim-a12 part of the problem with kerosene was the fully-wood-bodied wagons :)
00:18:43 <sim-al2> The difference in the train-line power is interesting too, Europe using 1500 V AC/DC or 3000 V DC, the British 1000 V AC/DC
00:19:10 <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah.. 1500V i rememberd wrong earlier sayingh 2500V or something.. the driveline for the electric trains is 25,000V
00:19:17 <drac_boy> I recall that steel trains were eventually to be standard but the war caused a lot of old coaches to be pressed back into service tho (and this was where some of the rail deaths during ww I/II happened)
00:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: they practically never run engines to the other end anymore here
00:19:35 <sim-al2> US: 480V Three-phase AC, but GO Transit in Canada uses 575(?) V three-phase
00:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: almost all trains run with a cab at the end. or sometimes two engines.
00:20:05 <Hiddenfunstuff> here the engines are still engines and cars are cars
00:20:10 <drac_boy> sim-a12 might be 575V due to the heavier loads needed (especially re 10+ wagons long too)
00:20:45 <sim-al2> Drac: I think that;s the explanation, but Amtrak runs longer trains on 480
00:20:46 <Hiddenfunstuff> are N-A using 480/575V for the heating while europe uses 1500 or 3000?
00:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there were instances of two engines with one single car inbetween
00:20:57 <drac_boy> I just know that some of the rush hour GO trains seem to have 2 locomotives (either top&tail or doublehead at one end)
00:21:01 <Hiddenfunstuff> is that the heating line or what?
00:21:09 <sim-al2> Three-phase though, which has different power characteristics
00:21:26 <drac_boy> sim-a12 well...I think its because amtrak doesn't have to deal with the doors being opened every 20-50 minutes?
00:21:40 <sim-al2> It's power for everything, AC, heating, power outlets, battery charging, etc
00:22:13 <sim-al2> Some Amtrak trains are like that, but most long distances probably not less than an hour or so
00:22:38 <Hiddenfunstuff> Because our trains use 2 electrics.. theres standard 450v for standby-low power that is available everywhere as 3 phase
00:22:51 <Hiddenfunstuff> Then theres the 1500V that comes directly from gen-car or engine
00:23:09 <sim-al2> The only real problem with three-phase is that in practice only one unit can supply power, at least reliably
00:23:39 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh yeah thats one of the few reasons I somehow have always preferred dc networks but to our own :)
00:23:47 <sim-al2> Systems to "syncronize" the output of multiple engines seem to have a lot of trouble here
00:24:33 <sim-al2> The solution so far is to allow the units to provide more power. :) 800kw for Amtrak's modern diesels, and 1000kw for the new electrics
00:25:44 <drac_boy> oh that reminds me of another thing hiddenfunstuff the one funny thing about old high quality versus new "modern" quality is .. cause a small brownout in the overhead wire at a junction and get a little popcorn bowl and watch :)
00:26:04 <drac_boy> the old straight-power unit would just slow down a bit but keep going while the new one's computer would literally shut down the traction power
00:27:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> Or in best case the first computers in line would've been fried
00:27:29 <drac_boy> yeah that was their reasoning apparently ^
00:27:34 <sim-al2> Generally, the old units use more power and need extra maintenace attention, and more importantly the manufactuers (mostly) can fix the problems
00:27:52 <drac_boy> but still, you would think they would bother using wide-input components for that kind of case then you know?
00:29:21 <drac_boy> at least interestingly some of the smaller emu (or at least as I have found) could be eg built just for 3000VDC operation but they would still run 'ok' on a 1500V line tho (even although this wasn't designed for)
00:29:38 <Hiddenfunstuff> At one point the dv12s electricity was used in cabin heating and lighting along with primitive train-tracking system
00:29:43 <drac_boy> so some of the modern computers are not too bad after all
00:29:55 <Hiddenfunstuff> Speed control and other stuff like that were pneumatically controlled
00:30:29 <Hiddenfunstuff> Which made funny throttle lever since it had nearly 1 second lag in it
00:30:41 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff, heh some of the early usa locomotives had air-operated throttle which had their own interesting individual characters
00:30:42 <sim-al2> I think that's how they got 1500 VDC capibility for the ES64U4, they built a system that could use 3000 VDC well, and just kinda.... run it off 1500 VDC with current limiters
00:31:17 <sim-al2> (the power output on 1500 VDC is much lower than the other systems)
00:31:23 <drac_boy> an Emd SW1200 with air throttle .. well .. lets just say sometimes you could make the throttle almost get a bit too ahead of the actual engine itself :)
00:31:38 <Hiddenfunstuff> And if your throttle didnt work... you could've always opened up the engine hatches and manually move the governor inside
00:31:57 <drac_boy> oh sim-a12 I know a photo you may like one sec..
00:33:49 <Hiddenfunstuff> is that an electric or a diesel?
00:34:20 <sim-al2> Eurostar, basically a TGV for the British loading gauge
00:34:26 <Hiddenfunstuff> the engine looks dirty enough that there could be exhaust somewhere on the top.. But that cutout in the back looks like a spot for pantograph
00:34:42 <sim-al2> It has/(had) 3rd rail 750VDC capibility
00:35:00 <Hiddenfunstuff> So it could've basically ran in subway tunnels
00:35:01 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff, its electric 3rd rail (but I believe now its purely 100% overhead routings tho)
00:35:21 <drac_boy> thats why I asked for someone from uk as I can't recall whether it was due to rerouting or re new poles being added
00:35:38 <sim-al2> Until the British built High Speed 1 to St. Pancras, it ran off the third rail to London Waterloo station
00:36:02 <drac_boy> ah so it was rerouted? thanks, I'll have to try remember that anyhow :)
00:36:11 <drac_boy> still a bit weird to see the eurostar with no wires visible :)
00:36:26 <sim-al2> I don't know about subway tunnels, the Britsh subway (the Underground) is much, much smaller in loading gauge, especially deep-level tubes
00:36:26 <Hiddenfunstuff> I never kinda understood the practicality of the 3rd rails other than in places where overhead is dangerous or no space for it (tunnels)
00:37:02 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff for short-distance low voltage it was the easiest way to go with doing it (assuming you don't got road crossings, although japan seem to have worked out the kink with that tho)
00:37:47 <drac_boy> keep in mind 3rd rail usually was exactly the same voltage the traction motor used (so that explains some trainsets having light chassis weight as noone needed transformers)
00:37:57 <sim-al2> Also note the 4th rail system the Underground uses
00:38:29 <drac_boy> sim-a12 didn't london use that unusual system because they combined a positive and a negative voltages together to get a higher total capacity?
00:39:22 <sim-al2> No, the voltages are around 600 VDC total, but one rail is positive and the other negative, as it was feared that regular 3rd rail (postive 600) would corrode the cast iron tubes used
00:39:50 <sim-al2> Those trains can run on regular 3rd rail with some minor adjustments
00:40:48 <drac_boy> btw sim-a12 I may not know much about the LUL but I've actually read a bit about the glasgow (I hope I got city name right from memory) system .. a rather unusual one where it was a completely circular line that initially was winch line worked before they retrofitted electric power instead
00:40:54 <sim-al2> The issue with DC power is that until fairly recently, there was no way to adjust voltages like you can with an AC transformer
00:41:03 <drac_boy> these bright orange trains that runs on the glasgow circle is quite something too
00:41:11 <sim-al2> Thus, the highest sytem voltages being around 3300 VDC
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00:42:10 <sim-al2> Traction motor insulation being the biggest impediment, as insulation for 3300 VDC seems to have been the highest avaliable before AC systems became dominant
00:42:14 * drac_boy still can't recall right now if there was any kind of service shed on that line or they are still using a overhead crane hoist to add/remove trains from the circle
00:42:47 <sim-al2> The line between Waterloo and Bank needs to use cranes to get trains in and out
00:43:17 <sim-al2> All the other lines have portions, if not most of the line above ground
00:43:55 <drac_boy> I still wonder how the winch thing worked on that glasgow circle anyway :)
00:44:08 <sim-al2> There's actualy two systems in one, deep-level with the small trains and subsurface that are larger, close in size to the regular UK trains
00:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (this was, however, an emergency solution, not the actually intended train length :p)
00:45:25 <sim-al2> Must be the express :p
00:48:26 <drac_boy> btw hiddenfunstuff there was at least one or two points in uk where a train service uses both overhead and 3rd rail due to network differences
00:48:38 <drac_boy> I forgot now but I believe it was Class 3** or something like that
00:49:03 <drac_boy> tunnel height restriction was one of the purposes the 3rd rail still existed for too I think...someone correct me if thats wrong
00:50:18 <sim-al2> Several EMUs have dual capability now, 313 being he first
00:50:24 <FLHerne> Also basically everything modern is at least capable of it
00:50:44 <FLHerne> 377/2, 387 use it in regular service
00:51:29 <drac_boy> yeah I recall now there was the amusing story of a driver forgetting to lower the pantographs on a 313 at least once ... cue the pans scraping into the tunnel ceiling
00:51:29 <sim-al2> The Electrostar and the Desiro families especially have the fittings necessary to install all the equipment
00:51:42 <FLHerne> 350s have had their 3rd-rail shoes removed, all other 377s and 444s/450s/458s have pantograph wells and spaces for transformers that haven't been fitted
00:52:19 <Hiddenfunstuff> Didnt even london underground have steam/diesels in them before electricity?
00:52:28 <drac_boy> sim-a12 funny thing is I still remember the electrostar in ukrs grf .. its too bad that IS2.5 for some reason never got rolled into the official build :-/
00:52:38 <Hiddenfunstuff> just thinking the amount of smoke and steam in the tunnels even with some sort of ventilation
00:52:45 <sim-al2> They had steam, the tunnels had openings in the roof to provide some ventilation
00:52:57 <drac_boy> would had made a good reason for the emu if say company1 only had 3rd rail and company2 couldn't be bothered providing 3rd rail
00:53:33 <sim-al2> There were plans to build more as the situation was becoming dangerous, but the vents were stopped by NIMBYs, and in any case electric trains arrived eventuallt
00:53:47 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff the 'old' tubes were a bit deeper (aside to the extra ventilations) compared to the newer electric-from-start tubes that didn't exactly have a lot of ventilations (other than for climate purpose)
00:54:09 <Hiddenfunstuff> Well yeah.. I'v seen how the trains and the tunnel walls are quite snug fit
00:54:31 <sim-al2> The problem is dual electrifcation, especially with AC and DC, creates induced currents in both systems, so it is avoided as much as possible
00:55:25 <drac_boy> (don't mind the historic-dressed passengers! heh)
00:55:54 <drac_boy> that thing was also banked by an almost-equally-vintage electric tube locomotive on the tail (just to be able to keep to the timetable if needed)
00:56:18 <sim-al2> I think the steam locomotives were also supposed to use "smokeless" fuel ( coke I believe), that helped keep the pollution down
00:56:39 <Hiddenfunstuff> well that seems quite light smoke in the tunnel
00:56:43 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff btw you see that not-so-red wagon right behind the locomotive? that was specially converted to act as an additional water supply for this run fyi
00:57:11 <drac_boy> it used to be a goods/parcel van I think .. someone else would have to check
00:57:24 <Hiddenfunstuff> the tiny engine didnt have big reservoir for water?
00:57:44 <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. coke coal and there was also condensing gears (sometimes worked well, sometimes not .. guess it depends on who built it and the engineer's skill)
00:58:15 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff I believe they did it for safety reason (and re to run a long time away from the primary shed too)
00:58:32 <drac_boy> that little box ahead of the cab is pretty much all the water supply the locomotive itself had :)
01:01:11 <sim-al2> I assume they used tank locomotives because those can run backwards without being turned, but suffer from smaller capacities
01:02:15 <Hiddenfunstuff> Shunting with a heavy freight locomotive might be difficult..
01:02:52 <drac_boy> sim-a12 actually it depends...
01:02:58 <sim-al2> It's done around the world now, but a tender steam locomotive usually can not reverse very quickly as the tender derails easily
01:03:05 <drac_boy> some tank locomotives had full-length water tanks (or combining it with saddle tank)
01:03:30 <drac_boy> so they could carry quite a lot of water which only left the coal fuel as the limit factor (unless some of the coal was stored ahead of the cab too)
01:07:27 <sim-al2> Some tanks had water storage between the frame rails too, I guess that one is extended range :)
01:09:33 <FLHerne> sim-al2: Very few well-tanks in the UK, only the Beattie and Adams ones after the early 20th century?
01:10:31 <sim-al2> I wish I knew, it seems the UK had a love of side-tank designs while other countries seem to have wells or even saddles instead
01:13:20 <FLHerne> The tanks are on the same frame as the boiler, so it isn't :P
01:15:30 <FLHerne> Now, Garratts are less obvious
01:15:34 <drac_boy> sim-a12 I never understood uk's weird thing with 0-4-2 and 2-4-0 using the exact same chassis that could fit a 0-6-0 drive!
01:16:01 <FLHerne> The water tank isn't on the same frame as the boiler, but the boiler doesn't have any of its own wheels
01:16:02 <drac_boy> flherne .. shays as a 2-truck one were indeed a bit like tank locomotives .. not too sure how a 3-truck shay would be called tho
01:18:40 <drac_boy> and mallets were often the tank type too ;)
01:18:51 <drac_boy> (well at least outside usa and some heavy lines)
01:19:03 <FLHerne> If anything's supporting the weight of both the boiler and the water tank, I'd still not call it a tender loco
01:20:17 <drac_boy> flherne then why *is* there a tender box?
01:20:36 <drac_boy> heck what about the Erie Triplex which still had powered drivers under the tender chassis itself? :)
01:20:57 <sim-al2> And the locomotives with booster trucks for starting
01:21:25 <drac_boy> sim-a12 ah well boosters is a different matter from always-in-use fullsize pistons
01:21:27 <FLHerne> tender: "ship that usually provides supplies to other ships [syn: {supply ship}]"
01:21:38 <FLHerne> I'd guess trains stole the terminology from boats as usual
01:22:16 <FLHerne> So "other" is important, I'd say if the tank's resting on the same wheels as the boiler it isn't a separate entity
01:22:53 <drac_boy> flherne .. heh well the box is supplying water/coal to a firebox thats not sitting in the same chassis
01:23:04 <drac_boy> so technically it still does deserve 'tender'
01:23:37 <FLHerne> That was about the mallet/shay/garratt thing, not sure about the triplex
01:23:58 <drac_boy> they failed mainly due to lack of sufficent steam pressure
01:24:34 <drac_boy> (also I dunno how having two LP pistons feed one HP piston really worked in theory too)
01:25:20 <sim-al2> It think it's HP feeding LP
01:25:45 <sim-al2> Like a Mallet, the LP cylinders are larger to compensate for the reduced pressure
01:26:28 <drac_boy> sim-a12 the problem is that its usually a 1:1 ratio .. the triplex messed up that ratio
01:27:47 <sim-al2> Ok, so on the Triplex the center cylinders are HP, and the front and rear LP, and the HP cylinders are large enough for each to supply to two LP cylinders
01:28:17 <drac_boy> I think the rebuild were (not surprisingly) just 2-10-2's ... will have to find
01:29:56 <drac_boy> btw sorry about having to end a long interesting mix of subjects but I'm going off for a bit now .. maybe talk again about something next time ok? :)
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12:19:47 <norro> Hey guys! I just discovered autorenew as a feature (currenty at version 1.3.3). however, while it is working great for trains and road vehicles, it seems to fail for ships and planes. no matter how often I send them to maintenance, they keep getting older. any idea?
12:21:16 <norro> oh. so it's a bug in 1.3.3?
12:21:35 <Wolf01> i don't know, but if it is, this is the only way to get rid of it
12:23:01 <norro> I see. The openttd wiki doesn't say anything about ships and planes, the example is always trains. so I was wondering if this feature is available for ships and planes at all.
12:23:12 <norro> but then I will try upgrading. thx
12:23:24 <Taede> should be equal for all vehicle types afaik
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12:34:32 <norro> Wolf01: that worked, thx! had to do the autorenew config again but now everything is renewing as intended
12:36:40 <Wolf01> it's useless to stay with a really old version if it doesn't have a valid reason, new version always have bug fixed, more features, new bugs
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13:24:49 <norro> Wolf01: well, you have a point, but 1.3.3 is the version that is currently shipped with ubuntu LTS (14.04). so unless there is a good reason against it, I like to keep the system defaults to keep it simple
13:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no good reason to have ubuntu LTS... and also no good reason for ubuntu LTS to have that version
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14:24:39 <planetmaker> norro, you can simply download openttd, unpack it in a folder in your home dir and play - without any installation. thus you can keep your system at default w/o problem and run openttd in whatever version you want
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15:11:18 <drac_boy> so anyway about my question yesterday I think I finally found my answer .. it would had been eg called either a 0-6-0ST+T or 0-6-0T+T ...not too unusual classification if not a bit rare to be used
15:31:35 <drac_boy> oh and flherne I'm not sure if its marine in origin or not but I think both 'embark' and 'board' used to start with ships and later was also used for rails too
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15:47:34 * drac_boy hands sim-a12 some kevlar-lined gloves and point you to the chopped wood to toss into that firebox there :P
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16:18:39 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: can I complain to you that eints has the same color for links as non-links?
16:18:47 <TrueBrain> there is no visual indication I can click on certain texts :P
16:20:20 <andythenorth> links aren’t blue for you?
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16:21:24 <TrueBrain> if I go to a string
16:21:30 <TrueBrain> the project text is a link
16:21:35 <TrueBrain> the language code is a link (nl_NL)
16:21:40 <TrueBrain> but "Edit String" is not
16:21:49 <TrueBrain> so it took me a while to notice the other two were a link
16:21:57 <TrueBrain> as there is no visual indication they are
16:23:50 <drac_boy> is this website or some local html file?
16:24:49 * andythenorth checking, but ‘access denied’ :P
16:28:05 <andythenorth> oh yeah, bootstrap over-rides link colours in h1, probably
16:28:07 <andythenorth> unless I did that :P
16:28:15 <sim-al2> drac: I'm slightly prefering oil-firing now
16:28:27 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ghehe :D
16:28:53 <andythenorth> ‘headings that are also links’ bug me in all the apps I build
16:28:57 <andythenorth> never found a good solution
16:30:03 <TrueBrain> 2 solutions: 1) dont do it (ghehehe)
16:30:14 <TrueBrain> 2) make a nice icon
16:30:21 <TrueBrain> I found both work equally well
16:30:44 <TrueBrain> I guess my main issue with eints and links in headers is, that it is not consistent
16:30:52 <TrueBrain> if I go to a project, the header is not a link
16:31:03 <TrueBrain> if I go to a language, the same header, looking EXACTLY the same, is a link
16:31:07 <TrueBrain> I have no visual feedback that happened
16:31:25 <andythenorth> I am thinking header is not a link
16:31:28 <TrueBrain> (not trying to be rude; really loving eints :D Just this stood out to me ;))
16:31:31 <andythenorth> and make an explicit text link
16:31:36 <andythenorth> yeah it bothered me for a long time
16:31:59 <TrueBrain> the other one that stands out to me, that the order is: unknown, correct, outdated, invalid, missing
16:32:06 <TrueBrain> I would do: unknown, outdated, invalid, missing, correct
16:32:11 <TrueBrain> as the correct are the least important ;)
16:32:25 <TrueBrain> even: unknown, invalid, outdated, missing, correct
16:32:32 <TrueBrain> as invalid is worse than outdated :D
16:35:00 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh ok, always prefer coal (or sometimes wood on smaller things) myself but to our own
16:39:02 <sim-al2> Close, some of the gas turbines burned the same heavy oil that the steamers did, but that fuel became more expensive when the plastics industry became big in the 1960's
16:59:33 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh well it still shows the truth behind the unofficial saying "alcos that thinks they're steam locomotives" :)
16:59:48 <drac_boy> worser tho of course is the lack-of-maintenance alco units in india/etc .. these REALLY smoke badly
17:04:59 <drac_boy> btw about gas turbine .. that was one of the few primary reasons for the up turbine .. at the time the refineries had little idea what to do with "bunker c" (as it was called) oil ... so up got this fuel for very cheap
17:06:10 <drac_boy> but of course later the diesel hp got better (probably partially thanks to SP's stubborn play on buying the german units to prove it) on top of bunker c being found use for causing price to go up .. that kinda impacted the up turbine's value
17:11:57 <sim-al2> I've seen some suggestions that Russian diesel refining is not as pure as western standards, and that is supposedly why Russian locomotives are particularly strong smokers
17:14:18 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh well...a lot of the earlier multi-unit diesels had 2-stroke as well
17:14:32 <drac_boy> that partially explains some of the heavy russia smokes :)
17:15:07 <sim-al2> Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston two-stroke engines no less (not licensed of course)
17:16:23 <drac_boy> heh tbh FM locomotives were interesting (and some with their own unique features) that its kinda too bad not a lot of them survived :-s ... even canada did have some of the carbody opposited-piston's too
17:18:48 <drac_boy> (also worth mentioning that the FM TrainMaster was 2400hp which was quite ahead of anyone else, but orders were somewhat limited .. funny enough SP apparently had to buy some of them too)
17:18:57 <sim-al2> Although the Kolomna works has developed their own engines now, the 2-stroke 14D40 of the 60's (notorious for its smoke, and oil and fuel consumption), and the more modern engines used in the "Ludmilla" locomotives for East Germany and the TE70 freight locomotives that power many Russian/CIS trains
17:19:13 <drac_boy> as I recall it was "heavier train at faster speed" slogan which was a big thing back then
17:20:04 <sim-al2> The real interesting part is that the engine design was not that different from their submarine engines
17:20:55 <drac_boy> sim-a12 I believe even the Deltic was borrowing a marine design as to find further purposes for the engine license :)
17:21:51 <sim-al2> The Deltic engine was used in a small number of fast patrol craft for many years
17:22:52 <drac_boy> its still sometimes hard to think that they got 3000hp out of a locomotive (the Deltic itself) thats much lighter than a "conventional" 2000hp one
17:23:07 <drac_boy> but hey it worked well for them for some time :)
17:24:41 <sim-al2> Two high speed engines vs a large medium speed of lowish output (the Class 40 engine was rated at 2000hp, but the very similar engine in the Class 50 put out 2700hp)
17:26:02 <drac_boy> ah about russia that reminds me sim-a12 I don't know if you knew of it yet but what do you think of the GT-1 in russia? I mean I still am curious what kind of exhaust muffling system they use (given the very high temperatures) as I don't think its a straight pipe for health reasons
17:28:06 <sim-al2> the GT-1 is pretty cool, but I don't see it becoming a dominant type because it doesn't seem to have the technology to overcome the efficiency problems
17:28:46 <drac_boy> sim-a12 well the efficiency isn't as that bad in russia as it could had been elsewhere.. russia really has a lot of nonstop-for-a-long-time freight train so the turbine is a bit easier to fit in
17:29:26 <drac_boy> but hmm yeah I still wonder why there doesn't seem to be a visible small non-traction genset engine for if it had to stop for a long time somewhere (or I'm just looking at pre-productions photos)
17:29:59 <sim-al2> It should be great for heavy freight, if kept well loaded it should be very efficient, but not all freight can be run that way
17:30:52 <sim-al2> (damn IRC client, I hope that comes out right)
17:31:56 <sim-al2> What's rather interesting is that one section of the locomotive is essentianlly a large gas cylinder
17:32:13 <drac_boy> sim-a12 its not irc .. the wiki links can be odd when using non-english characters
17:32:34 <sim-al2> My IRC client bungles non-Latin characters quite badly
17:33:05 <drac_boy> btw sim-a12 I believe the big tank is due to needing to operate over long distance without requiring a very long chassis (as one would need for under-chassis slung fuel tank)
17:33:20 <Rubidium> also, it has nothing to do with wiki but rather with most browsers going with escape codes for non-ASCII stuff to prevent issues with different code pages and the likes
17:33:21 <drac_boy> I think its partially due to the higher fuel useage of the turbine units
17:33:55 <sim-al2> That's the reason, I think it's to allow a stronger construction for the tank while still having a place for more traction motors and a cab
17:33:58 <drac_boy> oh and btw sim-a12 its nothing to do with rails (but I came across it a few days ago) ... I don't know much of the story but can I show you an interesting usa truck? :)
17:34:34 <sim-al2> The pre-production model didn't have the pretty carbody over the fuel tank
17:35:38 <drac_boy> sim-a12 if you not sure I can show you a better photo that tells more of the story
17:35:41 <sim-al2> Well not having an engine hood (or a visible engine block except for that that circular thing) seems a little... off... ;)
17:36:36 <drac_boy> almost could not even need any hood .. except for the few firewall-mounted accessories
17:36:43 <sim-al2> Damn should have seen that exhaust pipe, I expected a flat engine or a electric motor
17:37:01 <drac_boy> ah yep... hot turbine gas :)
17:37:09 <drac_boy> thats why they always had big exhaust anyhow :)
17:37:34 <sim-al2> You know that saying, "What's old is new again"?
17:37:58 <drac_boy> I imagine this kind of truck was best with a warehouse-to-warehouse non-city direct route (you know, needing very little stopping at all)
17:38:08 <sim-al2> I see that Walmart is designing hybrid turbine-electric trucks for their warehouse runs
17:38:35 <drac_boy> but I imagine it was more of a test than an actual road idea because I can't see how such anti-city operation could easily be done
17:38:56 <drac_boy> heck even some of the big warehouses are located right inside urban areas so a lot of stop and go is still required
17:39:03 <sim-al2> I imagine in the 1950's it would be easier with emptier roads
17:39:43 <sim-al2> Assuming they don't have to go off the highways, because then it would have been much worse
17:39:48 <drac_boy> that perhaps is true yeah .. even then chicago still had a lot of stuff inside urban areas (would you believe that 6-floor skytowers could be only a few hundred meters away from cattle holding pens?
17:40:22 <sim-al2> Yeah, Chicago is rather odd in terms of land-use
17:40:58 <sim-al2> Not too many places have suburban grid-patterns with an airport in the middle of that grud
17:41:35 <drac_boy> oh and about 1950's ... would you believe the pain some truck drivers have with trying to stuff a 50ft trailer into a very old brick loading bay (sitting sideway to the street) that was originally only designed for single-axle 20ft trailers from a LONG time ago?
17:41:51 <drac_boy> their number may be small but they still exist in pretty much any urban areas
17:42:59 <sim-al2> Oh I imagine, backing a trailer into an alley barely wider than the trailer and then turning it into a loading bay... I don't know that I could do that (without hitting things)
17:46:47 <drac_boy> actually I know one exact spot in ottawa-hull that I always see various 3-axle straight body trucks using once some days .. its a pain re having to hump the front-right tire over north sidewalk then hope traffic uses some common sense and come to a stop while the poor truck backs down (street is 3 lanes wide) into a narrow but deep alley
17:49:17 <drac_boy> anyway sim-a12 I'll let you have fun with whatever else you were doing allright? I'm going off for a bit now especially re to eat
18:04:37 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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19:06:13 <andythenorth> only one layout, quite boring
19:06:25 <andythenorth> should I split it into more, smaller buildings
19:31:00 <Wolf01> and zombies, people like zombies
19:33:02 <andythenorth> anyone playing the rainfall rivers patch?
19:33:14 <andythenorth> it looks awesome, but I haven’t tried it
19:33:53 <Wolf01> but i'm a bit lazy this times
19:36:09 * andythenorth should compile it
19:46:38 <frosch123> all screenshot i saw so far were like: ship-only.diff
19:47:11 <frosch123> the slopes are too long/steep
19:48:01 <frosch123> the map only consists of water tiles and slope tiles
19:48:21 <frosch123> there is almost no non-water tile which is no slope or even steep slope
19:49:50 <andythenorth> ah, does it flood most flat land?
19:49:57 <andythenorth> be interesting to try that with industry placement
19:50:07 * andythenorth should compile it
19:50:13 <frosch123> maybe it is only how people pick their screenshots :p
19:50:29 <frosch123> but to me it looked like the rainfall converts all land into slopes
19:51:44 <andythenorth> gah, it’s some patch queue thing
19:52:30 <andythenorth> no idea how to apply that, not applying 76 patches by hand
19:53:01 <andythenorth> either put it in a public repo, or provide a single-file patch :P
20:23:59 * [Franklin] reaches the apex of transportation technology
20:24:18 <[Franklin]> no more maglevs, no more aircraft :(
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20:49:41 <andythenorth> silly car factories
20:49:49 <andythenorth> they’re just one huge building
20:49:58 <andythenorth> _that_ won’t look good in ottd
20:50:40 <Wolf01> make multiple huge buildings with laaaarge parking lots
20:51:01 <V453000> andythenorth: make them one big belt with robots around it? :P
20:55:11 <V453000> pretty sure that is not the ain either
21:04:25 <TrueBrain> whoho, eints is working for OpenTTD :D Just some very minor stuff to sort out .. finally WT3 can be replaced :D
21:05:09 <TrueBrain> WT3 is now ... 7 years old or so? :P
21:05:42 <TrueBrain> 2009-07 it went live .. so 6 years and a bit :P
21:06:25 <Rubidium> doesn't that imply that the website design is even older?
21:06:47 <TrueBrain> but I think it went also live around that time
21:07:22 <TrueBrain> oldest file on disk is 2009-07
21:07:27 <TrueBrain> not saying a lot, but it is a good guestimate
21:07:47 <Rubidium> that's what svn implies as well
21:09:28 <TrueBrain> 2009-07-09, the new website got checked in
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21:10:38 <TrueBrain> but really happy with eints; very flexible, runs very well, and can take a punch
21:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a directory called "wt 3.1" with date of 3-2012 but the files in there all seem to be from 8-2009
21:41:40 <TrueBrain> how did you get your hands on the WT3 source?
21:41:44 <TrueBrain> that is something to discuss :D
21:41:52 <TrueBrain> who leaked you that ...
21:42:17 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: 24-06-2009 17:45 UTC seems to be roughly the moment WT3 went live
21:43:01 <TrueBrain> yeah .. and I am also pretty sure the new website was live before it got checked into subversion :P
21:43:10 <TrueBrain> but yeah ... 6+ years old ..
21:43:11 <Rubidium> @17:43:08 a WT2 commit, @17:45:07 a WT3 commit
21:43:22 <TrueBrain> it was a huge improvement over WT2
21:43:30 <TrueBrain> I hope eints is also a good improvement over WT3
21:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm fairly sure i got it from you :p
21:55:55 <TrueBrain> dammit; I am the worst :D
21:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> we might have had a discussion on how to extend it to other games
21:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the 2012 date may have been when i moved my ~ to another disk
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22:02:41 <TrueBrain> I am surprised the current site doesn't like 6+ years old
22:08:58 <frosch123> well, the silliest part of the homepage is still "Latest User Screenshot of $(current stable)" :)
22:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and it shows the thumbnail of one of the oldest screenshots
22:09:57 <TrueBrain> its a static image, yes :)
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22:18:31 * drac_boy gives sim-a12 ten litres of kerosene :)
22:37:57 <drac_boy> either way anyone else here a bit interested in some kind of train subject?
22:46:10 <TrueBrain> what a weird place to come to to find peopple who are interested in trains
22:46:24 <Zuu> Talking of screenshot, apparently we didn't upload any 1.5 screenshot yet.
22:46:44 * drac_boy thinks truebrain forgot what channel he was in :)
22:46:55 <TrueBrain> Zuu: so get to work already :D >:D
22:47:41 <Zuu> hehe. IIRC I did 1.3 and 1.4 at the same time. I learn't that it is the last uploaded directory that shows at the top. Not sorted by name, version number or so.
22:48:24 <TrueBrain> touch is your friend there :)
22:48:42 <TrueBrain> I believe 0.6 and 0.7 are always in the wrong order
22:52:44 <Zuu> Screenshots will be another day. Requires figuring out what in 1.5 to highlight and producing the screenshots. Now I'm off to bed.
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continue to next day ⏵
