IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-28
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00:01:00 <Wolf01> updating this pc too, 'night
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00:58:31 <drac_boy> sorry but not sure what happened last time...the text lines just kinda froze :-s
00:58:38 <drac_boy> oh well hi there anyhow
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08:48:07 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Pikka> well
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08:54:00 <andythenorth> ‘phosphate’ or ‘phosphates’ ?
10:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's usually plural
10:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know english...
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11:56:16 <Flygon> EddizuHause: Furs is a plural. FIRS isn't. ;3
12:05:00 <Wolf01> i must retry the windows update... this night it failed at drivers stage :|
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12:08:36 <Wolf01> i must admit that windows is really more robust now, it survived a hard reset during the update without problems... do it with XP/Vista
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12:14:01 <drac_boy> hi wolf01 not-sleepy? ;)
12:20:39 <drac_boy> I'm ok either way..just trying to browse some ads (with a serious lack of filtering...meh) for a while now before I need to decide what to do re breakfast :)
12:26:51 * andythenorth must draw: copper refinery, copper mine, phosphate mine, pyrite mine, pyrite smelter, supply yard, tyre plant, vineyard, vehicle factory
12:27:01 <andythenorth> 8 industries, 5 months
12:27:06 <andythenorth> it takes a weekend to draw an industry
12:27:17 <andythenorth> I get about 1 weekend without interruptions a month, at best
12:27:27 <andythenorth> FIRS 2 isn’t going to be done on time :)
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12:36:31 <drac_boy> have fun drawing everything still andy ;)
12:49:12 <Wolf01> bah, every f*****g day the tram stops in the bridge to Venice because of broken vehicles, and at this point i can't understand why they didn't use a trolley bus instead... and also i can't understand why so many vehicles breaks there every day
12:52:02 <drac_boy> wolf01 venice..as in italy?
12:53:33 <drac_boy> oh is that the one called Ponte della Liberta?
12:55:32 <drac_boy> hm..I dunno what to say .. theres heavy rails parallel to it except I don't think a rail shuttle could work for the other side of bridge (inland in italy yeah) .. yeah I dunno what to really say seeing I don't even know much beyond names now :)
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13:17:41 <drac_boy> wolf01 so what you having for lunch anyhow?
13:29:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: is there anything that would motivate you to work on BB for a bit? o_O
13:30:58 <Alberth> I tried yesterday and failed :p
13:31:14 <Alberth> Today another attempt is planned
13:34:41 <Wolf01> [13:17:46] <drac_boy> wolf01 so what you having for lunch anyhow? <- stuff, i don't know how to call it, in substance gnocchi of spinach and bread with bacon and parmesan cheese
13:35:42 <drac_boy> sounds like a good pasta lunch anyhow :)
13:35:58 <drac_boy> funny enough I'm in middle of breakfast atm .. just waiting for next pancake from pan to be ready
13:35:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: it would much help my FIRS testing :)
13:36:09 <Wolf01> with the difference that there isn't a bit of pasta
13:36:10 <Alberth> I am aware of that :p
13:36:15 <andythenorth> I have worn out SV and NCG :)
13:40:08 <Alberth> maybe just add a bit of random as quick hack?
13:40:49 <drac_boy> wolf01 well .. gnocchi for some reason is often lumped as a pasta dish
13:41:53 <andythenorth> nah, my quick hacks aren’t savegame safe, probably :)
13:42:12 <andythenorth> I have to draw industries anyway
13:44:31 <Alberth> there is some selection code for picking the "best" destination, if you throw in some random there, you'll get more variation.
13:46:52 <andythenorth> FindChallenge() ?
13:47:20 <andythenorth> I also have my patch to prevent repeat goals here
13:47:35 <andythenorth> it works until I reload a savegame
13:47:47 <andythenorth> which is a bit of an ‘oops’ moment :)
13:50:54 <Alberth> yes, you would probably split the foreach in two steps. First just collect feasible solutions without checking for 'best'; then (simple) just pick one of the feasible solutions, or pick one of the top N.
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14:11:35 <drac_boy> going afk for a bit anyhow, have fun wolf01 n andy
14:12:16 <Wolf01> oh, thank you... i got stuck in numberphile again
15:00:59 <Wolf01> let's retry the update, bbl
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15:58:41 <Wolf01> bah the update broke the hyper-v virtual ethernet, leaving me without connection
15:59:08 <Wolf01> removed the virtual ethernet, so the virtual machines are now without connection
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21:12:55 * andythenorth has not made FIRS
21:12:59 * andythenorth has made Lego instead
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22:13:15 <drac_boy> just curious if theres any steam heads (heh?) here .. exactly how do you classify these few locomotives that are both bunkers and tender type in one?
22:18:17 <drac_boy> no thats bunker-only so it would had been a 0-6-0T
22:18:24 <drac_boy> one sec I think I know where to find a photo...
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22:29:53 <Wolf01> need to go, my people need me
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22:55:58 <Snail> drac_boy: bunker and tender? meaning they have coal and water reservoirs both on the engine itself and on the separate tender?
22:57:04 <drac_boy> yeah snail .. I dunno if its just my lack of sleep or not re if my wordings were poor :->
22:57:42 <Snail> :) I know one of this type, and it’s classified as a tender locomotive (as separate tender)
22:57:49 <drac_boy> I know some uk railroad had some of these little saddle+tender but again I dunno if its my lack of sleep but I can't find a crap for these either :->
22:58:03 <Snail> this one had a coal reservoir on the engine, and water in the tender
22:58:23 <Snail> not sure about such engines on UK railroads
22:58:40 <drac_boy> yeah that odd locomotive does seem to match :)
22:58:59 <drac_boy> the box could be better matched with the boiler tho .. that looks weird as-is heh
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23:01:17 <Snail> yeah, it was an experimental design
23:01:42 <Snail> one of the few ones built in Europe I think. Cab-forward engines were mostly successful in the US
23:02:23 <Supercheese> I remember going to the Sacramento railroad museum as a kid and their cab-forward engine featured prominently
23:03:56 <drac_boy> snail mm well yeah the main reason Southern Pacific made theirs cab-forward was due to ease of oil firing to put the smokestack behind the cab to avoid crew suffocation problems in the long on-grade tunnels
23:04:16 <drac_boy> although you could find photos of such trains still sometimes being doubleheaded so the second crew still had to suffer nevertheless :-s
23:04:40 <Snail> yep… the alternative solution was electricity :p
23:04:51 <Snail> but that never quite got any traction around here
23:05:15 <drac_boy> and humm I don't know why but the DRG.05 was also built with at least one or two cabforward flavour on top of the few more conventional ones
23:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> they did that mostly just to try it
23:07:03 <drac_boy> snail .. about electric .. well .. funny story but N&W actually had one short electrification section due to difficult grades but later on a new route reduced the grade making it workable with steam and this was what caused their last batch of mallets (to order new ones in 1950's was a bit unusual) to be built after the electric was disassembled
23:07:17 <drac_boy> I think they were the only one to do electric>steam replacement usa-wise
23:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there were 2 conventional and 1 cab-forward of that series
23:07:25 <drac_boy> everyone else went electric>diesel
23:08:28 <Hiddenfunstuff> electric > diesel-electric
23:08:40 * drac_boy whacks hiddenfunstuff with a diesel-hydraulic
23:09:05 <Hiddenfunstuff> Diesel-electric is way more efficient way than just diesel with mechanical transmission
23:09:56 <drac_boy> depends tbh .. hydraulic can and sometimes did have a direct lockup (usually used when at speed)
23:10:44 <Hiddenfunstuff> diesel torque curve is narrow, its power curve is narrow.. Its much more efficient to have large diesel engine hooked up to large generator that powers electrical drive motors.. which might have some simple gearbox for torque/speed settings infront of the motor
23:11:28 <drac_boy> if you're a shunter/switcher yeah but otherwise when changing infrequently the electric loss is more noticeable
23:11:40 <Hiddenfunstuff> diesel-hydraulic might work for lighter trains such as passengers might work with that.. diesel-electric in freight trains is more common
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23:12:25 <Rubidium> just get rid of diesel trains altogether
23:14:12 <Hiddenfunstuff> and replace them with?
23:14:12 <drac_boy> rubidium heh well the real problem is to wire "everything" (even New Haven still had spots that had to be steam/diesel worked up to till the PC "failure") including that little-used branchlines etc
23:14:37 <Hiddenfunstuff> Also in places where its cold and snowing.. electricity is not exactly most reliable solution always
23:14:37 <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: hydrogen fuel cells?
23:14:41 <Hiddenfunstuff> Atleast if its modern electrics
23:15:05 <drac_boy> not surprisingly a good % of the metre gauge network in switzerland (and thats not counting freight sidings or anything) are not wired which explains the few types of heavy haul diesels on hand
23:15:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> arent hydrogen fuel cells dangerous if they get slightly banged up and shot?
23:15:38 <Rubidium> if they are, then they're badly designed
23:15:54 <Hiddenfunstuff> Because you must consider the kind of goods the train carry.. there could be some RID cargo
23:16:01 <drac_boy> at least for stations that don't need every single feet to be wired theres always these tiny little diesel or electro-diesel shunter boxes sitting around :)
23:16:21 <Hiddenfunstuff> which might either act as oxidyzer or just highly volatile
23:16:30 <drac_boy> I admit some of these look quite tiny (basically a 2-person cab box on a flatcar with overhanging roof)
23:17:08 <Hiddenfunstuff> As someone who worked at railyard and diesel mechanic there.. I grew to hate the newer electric units
23:17:29 <Hiddenfunstuff> Meanwhile the good old diesel-electric from like 1960s ran fine after even 45 years
23:18:07 <drac_boy> (well larger as in a roomy cab)
23:18:16 <Hiddenfunstuff> and the only 10 year old electric (semi-bullet train-ish passenger) units were every winter out of service in the repair queue
23:18:19 <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: but if it escapes it dissipates quickly, whereas diesel would spill onto the ground and cause problems there
23:19:15 <Hiddenfunstuff> but could hydrogen replace the diesel as in torque?
23:19:45 <Hiddenfunstuff> or how do you would think the hydrogen would be converted into power/electricity?
23:20:35 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff btw about what you mentioned .. yeah I've noticed too many times (or at least per Todays Railway Europe) that a new fleet of locomotive often run into issues and the supposed-to-be-decomissioned older ones have to take over and basically 'just keep going and going' :)
23:21:08 <drac_boy> I recall one particular magazine now that mentioned "the older ones were made of more stern metal" re new one failing often during winter (and its only like -10 of all the things like ummm what the heck??)
23:22:19 <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: don't know, but diesel is finite so it will end (and hopefully sooner rather than later)
23:22:27 <drac_boy> heh hiddenfunstuff, funny .. I have always liked these Dv** locomotives .. partially because they remind me of my favourite "all-purpose" Alco RS that used to be around here
23:22:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> its like with any machinery these days.. the build quality, material quality is worse
23:23:15 <drac_boy> I dunno if the Dv** ever carried steam heat boilers in the short nose tho did they? (because that would have matched what the Alco RS did for older passenger trains back then)
23:23:26 <Hiddenfunstuff> drac_boy wouldnt be suprised if they took some inspiration there.. ordered couple prototypes from soviet union.. run them and improved them for next 30 years
23:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: hydrogen is also finite
23:23:49 <Hiddenfunstuff> for what that steam boilers were used for? starting the main engine?
23:23:58 <drac_boy> heh actually ... there were some Alco RSD (I dunno what the 'D' stuffix additional could had meant) ordered for russia lines before
23:24:13 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff, no .. steam heating during the winter (before electric heating existed) :)
23:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (whereby i mean the hydrogen in the sun's core)
23:24:34 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: though the hydrogen "power" cycle is much shorter than the one for diesel, so reuse of previously used hydrogen is significantly easier
23:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: bavaria had electric heating in 1911
23:25:18 <Hiddenfunstuff> Well these had the main engine (72L V16) coupled to large generator.. then a smaller 14l litre straight 6 starter engine which took care of compressing air for the pneumatic starter of the main engine
23:25:35 <Hiddenfunstuff> as well as took care of the standby power and heating of the main engine
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23:26:27 <Hiddenfunstuff> Starting sequence obviously went by getting the starter engine running somehow.. then let it collect air and preheat the heavy fuel oil for the main engine, as well as heat the main engine
23:26:43 <Hiddenfunstuff> Then about 15 mins later you started the main engine
23:26:59 <Hiddenfunstuff> after that you turned off the starter engine and main engine took care of everything else
23:28:11 <Hiddenfunstuff> the electric drivemotors were coupled through a 2 speed hydraulic transmission which had "freight" and "express" gears.. basically more torque, lower topspeed.. and other way
23:49:28 <drac_boy> sorry had to afk for a bit re making supper but anyhow hiddenfunstuff I can't find what I wanted (so easy to find in my magazine but so hard to find online, seem to be a reccuring pattern sometimes) but heres something similar tho...
23:50:01 <Hiddenfunstuff> But yes.. reliability is an issue with modern machinery
23:50:07 <Hiddenfunstuff> can be noticed with light vehicles aswell
23:50:43 <drac_boy> the Alco RS often had a small one under the short hood (and so did many emd GP7/GP9 ordered for passenger works too)
23:51:16 <drac_boy> but anyhow back to this: I was just kinda curious if the Dv series had steam heat as well or the trains over there hadn't needed that
23:51:39 <Hiddenfunstuff> well dv had electrical heating and the first prototype models where the main engine and starter engine shared the same cooling water
23:52:18 <drac_boy> ah ok just had to ask
23:52:19 <Hiddenfunstuff> So once you got the starter engine started by some way.. either force injection, or starter ether (hhnnnngh)
23:52:34 <Hiddenfunstuff> and eventually once the engine warmed up it started to warm up the larger one aswell
23:53:00 <drac_boy> btw hiddenfunstuff when amtrak took over most individual passenger services you'll be surprised at how much of the "older stuff" still had to be steam heated
23:53:16 <Hiddenfunstuff> its not that absurd concept
23:53:24 <drac_boy> it was only the commuter railroads (short-haul basically) that had electric early on tho
23:53:48 <Hiddenfunstuff> Before the newer passenger coaches.. each carriage had a small wood/coal boiler in a water loop
23:54:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> newer carriages require 2500v electricity for heating
23:55:03 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff there is one other thing tho .. would you imagine bilevel behind steam? that did happen on C&NW (aka the original first generation Budd bilevel coaches) for a few years before the emd diesel orders arrived
23:55:33 <Hiddenfunstuff> Hmm yeah.. did they run hot steam in the heating pipes or heated water?
23:55:47 <Hiddenfunstuff> or how did they get the hot steam/water upstairs?
23:56:02 <drac_boy> not sure, someone would have to find the specs for these coaches to check
23:56:27 <Hiddenfunstuff> They couldnt been electric heating since the steam engine doesnt rely on electricity nor does it produce it
23:56:33 <drac_boy> (unrelated note but if you want to imagine a steam locomotive hauling containers then yes that did really exist in japan fyi)
23:56:50 <Hiddenfunstuff> So either there must've been generator car for the heating or then they used some sort of boilers on each car
23:57:39 <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff I do know that some of the later bilevel coaches had part of the lower level reserved for genset supplies (basically a self-climated train that even a freight diesel locomotive could haul)
23:58:11 <Hiddenfunstuff> Generator car is required on the long distance overnight train that goes +1000km north powered by a dv12.. it cannot put out enough power for heating and utility power for the coaches
23:59:15 <Hiddenfunstuff> 12 car passenger with sleeping cars, usually 2 vehicle carriages in the back.. of with block heater capability for the cars loaded in it
continue to next day ⏵
