IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-24
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00:48:19 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, the last one was really a pearl :D
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14:37:12 <Wolf01> but i think i got the idea
15:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> video of the talk might be more helpful
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15:36:50 <Mazur> Oh, you've finally had "the talk"?
15:38:51 <Mazur> Shouldn't your dad or mom have taken you apart for that years ago?
16:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you're talking about.
16:10:29 <Mazur> Never mind, then. (It was a joke).
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17:57:39 * andythenorth considers adding Yet Another Port to FIRS
17:57:49 <andythenorth> currently have: Bulk Terminal, Trading Post, Port
17:58:00 <Alberth> make a port economy :p
17:58:29 <andythenorth> this is a spiffing idea
17:59:12 <Alberth> it may need a space port? :)
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19:45:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27456 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt spanish.txt) (2015-11-24 19:45:15 +0100 )
19:45:25 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:26 <DorpsGek> korean - 7 changes by telk5093
19:45:27 <DorpsGek> spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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20:32:10 <frosch123> do you have a good idea for commandline options to lang_sync to upload specific languages?
20:32:24 <frosch123> currently there is "upload-base" and "upload-translations"
20:32:58 <frosch123> i wonder about adding new commands like "upload-dutch", "upload-nl_NL"
20:33:10 <frosch123> or to add other parameters
20:33:28 <frosch123> "--lang dutch --lang de_DE upload-translations"
20:33:36 <frosch123> both don't look good :)
20:34:04 <Alberth> hmm, there is not the option to list the languages?
20:35:05 <frosch123> it only distinguishes base and non-base
20:35:23 <Alberth> ah, indeed, must be confused with some other language tool
20:35:40 <frosch123> combining the language name with the "upload-" prefix would looks somewhat consistent
20:35:48 <frosch123> but is non-standard at best :)
20:35:56 <Alberth> yep, I like that idea
20:36:31 <Alberth> like cat --file a --file b ?
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20:44:57 <Alberth> 1 looks best to me, imho
20:45:39 <Alberth> they make "base" and "translations" an abbreviation/alternative
20:47:36 <frosch123> but it cannot be extended to also accept filenames
20:51:54 <Alberth> --upload "dutch german foo.txt" ?
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20:52:20 <Alberth> bit tricky if you have spaces in the filename :p
20:52:32 <frosch123> yup, it needs multiple --upload
20:52:48 <frosch123> --upload-file foo.txt --upload-lang dutch
20:53:19 <Alberth> not too bad, since it's a script anyway, normally
20:53:48 <Alberth> manually, you'd do 1 file at a time, I guess
20:54:34 <frosch123> well, this leads to either 3 or 4
20:54:40 <frosch123> but then i prefer 3
20:56:09 <Alberth> 3 needs upload/download to be added?
20:56:32 <Alberth> or does "--lang dutch" do both?
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21:00:01 <frosch123> --file doesn't really make sense for download
21:00:07 <frosch123> --lang could also work for download
21:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't "download --file=german.txt" make sense?
21:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or let me rephrase that: define a semantics, let the user make sense of the semantics?
21:03:06 <frosch123> if german.txt exists, it would read the langid from that file, and then download the language
21:03:11 <frosch123> if it does not exist, it does what?
21:03:32 <frosch123> people could think to combine it with --lang, but that makes everything even more inconsistent
21:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so, it doesn't internally keep track of filenames?
21:04:40 <frosch123> newgrfs use the ##grflangid, and don't care about the filename
21:04:51 <frosch123> gamescripts only use the filename, there is no id within the file
21:05:09 <Alberth> should have ##grflangid :p
21:05:25 <Alberth> I copied them from there
21:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ok. semantics: get the file (if available), throw error message if not.
21:06:17 <Alberth> good night, I trust you will make something sane :)
21:06:43 <frosch123> maybe i make coffee :p
21:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> fucking-coffee.sh?
21:13:33 <Rubidium> frosch123: I would definitely use the iso language code, otherwise someone will try "upload-english"
21:14:20 <Rubidium> and which English is it (also, how to handle parentheses and spaces?)
21:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> LANGNAME obviously needs "" if it contains special characters. and filenames as well, but no sane person should do that
21:17:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's what the shell handles for you
21:17:27 <frosch123> i don't need to care about that
21:17:53 <Rubidium> frosch123: true, but that isn't the language but rather a file name without extension
21:18:07 <frosch123> ok, but it is what i meant :p
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21:57:27 <planetmaker> frosch123, my 2ct on eints new parameters: 3) "lang_sync --lang dutch --lang de_DE upload-translations" (filter parameter, default="all languages") looks best to me
21:58:47 <frosch123> i guess that's what we concluded with :)
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22:18:28 <andythenorth> gold or not gold?
22:21:21 <drac_boy> hmm...where would the gold had been going to if it was to exist?
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22:22:22 <frosch123> is chemicals your new favorite cargo?
22:23:02 <andythenorth> it was always a big deal in FIRS :P
22:23:12 <andythenorth> ‘better living through chemistry’ etc
22:26:06 * andythenorth considers renaming chemicals to ‘stuff’
22:26:31 <andythenorth> ‘matter’, ‘abstract concepts’, ‘formal relations'
22:27:00 <andythenorth> philosophical economy :P
22:27:13 <andythenorth> “deliver 21 crates of reason”
22:27:22 <drac_boy> as long as you got a good name for beef ;)
22:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't gold mining something you'd rather find in 3rd world countries?
22:27:48 <drac_boy> eddi well africa may have a lot of the diamond mines but they still also exist in bc,canada .. australia .. etc
22:27:53 <drac_boy> unrelated but just an example
22:28:46 <drac_boy> and btw eddi sorry to ask but what was the acroymn you mentioned again re that other electrical-than-physical brake system on some of the berlin bahn?
22:29:26 * andythenorth might ignore gold
22:29:33 <andythenorth> there’s enough cargos, strictly
22:29:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember using any other acronyms
22:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ETCS is the new european standard
22:30:04 <drac_boy> ah .. etcs .. no wonder I mispelled it and wondered why I couldn't figure out anything
22:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's meant to make european railroads more interchangable. but it's probably 50 years away from achieving that :p
22:31:23 <andythenorth> always start early :P
22:31:41 <andythenorth> do I need a tyre plant?
22:31:45 <andythenorth> could deliver rubber to plastics plant
22:31:50 <drac_boy> if I had a few lines of my own I wouldn't had bother..but to our own on that tho
22:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, railways still use mechanical signalling systems that were installed over 100 years ago...
22:32:12 * andythenorth could use synthetic rubber only
22:33:14 <sim-al2> I think most countries are slowly removing the remaining mechanical signals now
22:33:31 <drac_boy> beside it seem pointless to have overlaps anyway
22:33:36 <sim-al2> In favor of color lights or just straight to cab signaling
22:35:14 <andythenorth> that is neat, and definitely a bit over-engineered
22:35:24 <sim-al2> So here's a question for you Eddi: Do the mainline railways in Europe use signal overlaps?
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22:37:28 <drac_boy> doing ok.long morning to early afternoon but being bit lazy for now before sorting out supper and a bit of paperworks altogether :->
22:38:41 <frosch123> sim-al2: according to german wikipedia, 1 in 100000 trains stop after passing the signals
22:39:06 <frosch123> 50% stop less than 10 meter after the signal, 10% stop more than 50 meter after the signal
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22:41:53 * drac_boy also had a bit fun not even finding any good photos of the rhb g 3/4 locomotive in normal operation either :->
22:42:09 <Rubidium> frosch123: what does 1:100.000 trains mean? Is a train the phyisical thing, or the planned thing (i.e. one physical train being planned as multiple trains), and is it per passing of signal or per day or per ???
22:42:33 <sim-al2> Interesting, I read on a forum (so maybe not correct) that the signaling setup used by Amtrak (Northeast Corridor) does not allow for an overlap
22:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <sim-al2> I think most countries are slowly removing the remaining mechanical signals now <-- the emphasis is on "slow"
22:43:18 <Rubidium> in the NLs there were 49 trains that passed a red signal
22:43:39 <andythenorth> there is an entire YT sub-genre about SPADs
22:43:55 <andythenorth> but then there is probably an entire YT sub-genre for every word in the dictionary
22:44:29 <sim-al2> And furthermore, the ACSES (safety system) forces a stop short of a signal, and if the post I read was correct, doesn't allow a train to approach the signal without using the override button (which requires dispatcher permission)
22:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: rule 34?
22:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: so that just means the safety distance is _before_ the signal, not _after_ it?
22:45:37 <frosch123> Rubidium: per "train is approaching red signal and needs to stop"
22:45:45 <drac_boy> and have any of you ever seen a koploper and tgv swiped together? :)
22:46:25 <sim-al2> Apparently (according to some thread posts), if a signal is at the end of a platform, a train couldn't even draw up to the platform without permission
22:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've never (physically) seen either a koploper or a tgv
22:47:34 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: well. i know almost nothing about "foreign" signalling systems
22:47:35 <drac_boy> eddi well I dunno why I seem to be able to recall it but it was a strange one where one train (I believe it was the tgv) crept past a red signal and of course the computer didn't act because it was below 20kph .. and swiped into the path of other train
22:48:14 <drac_boy> apparently the system they had didn't work at crawl speeds
22:48:31 <Rubidium> drac_boy: s/had/have/
22:49:04 <drac_boy> I believe it was amended/replaced already .. or thats what one of the outcome objective was
22:49:07 <Rubidium> though they're improving it by some tweaks
22:49:40 <Rubidium> but a) they haven't finished yet, b) they started with the high risk locations, c) I doubt they'll ever finish it
22:49:46 <sim-al2> Isn't that a problem with the old ATS though, in that it didn't have a stop enforcement component, only that acknowledgement was required?
22:51:49 <sim-al2> I just find the idea weird that signaling practices could vary so much
22:52:18 <sim-al2> Considering that otherwise many signaling practices are found worldwide
22:52:30 <drac_boy> ohh yeah that reminds me of a more grim accident .. I still rather seriously believe that the Talgo 730 should not have a genset thats mounted way above the chassis line without the trainset's maximum speed at *any* time being derated accordingly
22:52:57 <sim-al2> I like that the bicyclists immediatly back up
22:53:07 <drac_boy> (yep that spain curve overspeed where it was the diesel car that first started the derailing)
22:53:30 <sim-al2> Rubidium: Did the train split the switch there?
22:54:30 <Rubidium> the switch actuator broke which caused the trailing wagons to take another route, but the train remained connected
22:54:48 <sim-al2> In the Talgo derailment, the train was very much over the speed limit anyway, the generator car just happened to be the first to go, the locomotive probably would have gone if the train was much faster
22:56:30 <drac_boy> sim-a12 well the problem is..derailing with equal gravity would had been less messy than the heavy car jacking thing ... just ask the prior tgv accidents
22:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: the problem there was at the end of the new high-speed signalling system it didn't enforce lowering the speed to the "normal" level
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22:57:02 <Rubidium> well, time for ERTMS level 3
22:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so the train took a 80km/h curve with like 200km/h
22:57:45 * Rubidium wonders what happened with the French system one and a half week ago
22:58:00 * andythenorth wondered that too
22:58:05 <sim-al2> It's true that the signaling system was not adequete for the end of a high-speed segment therw
22:58:17 <drac_boy> ouch .. that koploper splitting it .. thankful for the platforms to "contain" it from doing a zig-zag onto the ground
22:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: what exploded there at 0:16?
22:59:13 <sim-al2> Looks like the catenary shorted out on the train?
22:59:28 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's the catenary shorting
22:59:28 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the catenary short circuited
22:59:38 <Rubidium> drac_boy: what platforms?
22:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think it was a test run above the speed limit, and the brake was too late
23:00:36 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: 10% above speed limit, and at least 1 minute late... and you reckon one of the seven in the cab would have noticed it earlier...
23:00:40 <sim-al2> The article claims 90km/h above the speed limit
23:01:12 <Rubidium> sim-al2: the test run was for 10% above the speed limit, but due to breaking too late it was way way over speed
23:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i don't think signalling helps for such exception tests
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23:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> they probably disabled some security systems
23:02:31 <sim-al2> Yes, it took a curve far too fast at the junction between the new segment and the exisiting track
23:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: most of the wagons did not leave the rails, no platforms involved
23:03:29 <sim-al2> The scheduled speed was 176km/h, but the train entered at 265km/h
23:04:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: both TVM-430 and ERTMS were disabled
23:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: i don't speak enough french to understand that
23:04:52 <glx> Rubidium: braking 10s too late
23:05:14 <glx> and way too many people in a test train
23:05:19 <sim-al2> And derailed at 243km/h , I think the curve was 945m radius
23:05:46 <sim-al2> I don't either, but I know what I'm looking for (and Google translate :) )
23:07:02 <Rubidium> glx: and the graph says 1 km... my mistake (I remembered wrong)
23:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so it was 1km too late
23:10:34 <sim-al2> Appearently some employees had their children onboard
23:11:12 <drac_boy> looks like the talgo diesel was mounted right over the truck (rather than slung low on the chassis rails?) with a 6600kg weight (which I assume is the total car weight but likely more than half of that nearly halfway up)
23:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i don't see how that is relevant
23:13:11 <drac_boy> if it was not so heavy on gravity (or mounted properly low to more match the existing trainset) it wouldn't had been as bad
23:13:55 <sim-al2> The locomotive has a decent center of gravity too, the speed was traveling so fast that anything could have caused a derailment
23:14:25 <drac_boy> sim-a12 except that if it was the front to come first it would had been a different lighter fail
23:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that is pure speculation
23:15:01 <sim-al2> There's still a concrete wall on the outside of an 80km/h curve
23:15:05 <drac_boy> although in some cases agriculation counts (as the tgv's history showed)
23:16:24 <drac_boy> glx..I'm still curious why childs could had been on that non-public train but mm going wait for the magazine to follow up on it yet :-s
23:17:11 <drac_boy> oh uggg....forgot been talking for a while..sorry need to afk to get supper ready before seven -_-
23:17:42 <sim-al2> The children shouldn't have been there, but I suppose the other employees didn't want to confront their parents about that
23:19:37 <glx> anyway 7 people in the cab for a test run is too much
23:20:13 <sim-al2> The World Speed record run had a number in the cab, it's a pretty big space
23:24:25 <FLHerne> WCRC are banned from operating steam locos in the UK again, for disabling overspeed protection while running...
23:24:53 <sim-al2> Ok, I just watched the CCTV footage from the Spain derailment, the generator car goes first but even in the fuuzy footage you can see the locomotive is nearly off the inner rail too
23:25:13 <FLHerne> They were banned for weeks earlier in the year for exactly the same reason, should've taken the hint
23:25:35 <sim-al2> And of course the whole train follows the generator car instead of being pulled off like the locomotive
23:26:01 <sim-al2> Wow those guys did that AGAIN? I thought they were lucky to be allowed back
23:27:35 <FLHerne> sim-al2: Yup. The full report for the first time around hasn't even been issued yet :-/
23:27:45 <FLHerne> But then, DCR got away with Stafford
23:28:03 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I read the actual report
23:28:29 <sim-al2> I remember the report for the Candian oil shipment derailment took a while (months), but that required a detailed assessment
23:29:42 <Rubidium> sim-al2: this report took 11 months
23:30:15 <sim-al2> Shouldn't that impact on the wheels be detected by an inspection train?
23:30:52 <glx> yeah inspections, tell that to killed people at bretigny
23:31:46 <sim-al2> You're speaking to the choir here
23:31:54 <glx> inspections are useless if nothing is done after them
23:33:18 <Rubidium> sim-al2: inspection trains don't detect impact on the wheels, what can be detected are the gaps in the gauge but due to the wheels moving the flange the measurements are wrong
23:33:28 <sim-al2> That's very true, sometimes I'm surprised how few accidents occur
23:33:50 <Rubidium> having said that, with linescan video you could notice the effects of driving against the flange
23:34:57 <Rubidium> furthermore, back then the infrastructure owner didn't do switch measurements by train yet and no other measurements (besides manual ones) have measurements for the flange gap
23:35:43 <sim-al2> That's an interesting form of fatigue failure, I almost would expect the switch rail to fail due to fatigue stress caused by the flange contacts
23:36:52 <glx> bretigny was clearly a lack of maintainance
23:36:57 <Rubidium> the switch rail can easily deform, the joint that broke can't. Not to mention that the joint was designed to break at a particular force
23:37:43 <glx> missing screws, unsecured bolts
23:39:07 <Rubidium> also a fun factoid... once looking at rail "in real life" was replaced by looking at pictures of rail in the office the inspection frequency was slowly lowered due to the fact that more was spotted earlier and trends could be seen by looking at previous images
23:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what was bretigny again?
23:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that thing where the train went over the platform?
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23:51:50 <glx> recent weird incident was the train unable to brake after a collision with a cow
continue to next day ⏵
