IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-22
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03:43:04 <drac_boy> long night but meh :-s heh
03:48:27 * drac_boy wonders if flygon wants a tumbleweed :P
03:52:49 <Flygon> Also was distracted by an American in the other network
03:54:03 <drac_boy> heh ok..not sure I want know what "other" is but then :)
03:55:06 <drac_boy> what you doing atm anyhow?
03:56:20 <Flygon> Trying to find a French speaker
03:56:25 <Flygon> I need two sentences translated
03:56:29 <drac_boy> I see, can't really help you sorry
03:56:43 <Flygon> Not that sort of Canadian? xP
03:56:57 <drac_boy> canadian can be english you silly aussie ;)
04:02:06 <drac_boy> btw flygon about gutting..well..it wasn't for same kind of reason but some of the 'smaller' big railroads in usa before used to decide to completely repower (sometimes same traction motors, sometimes even that got replaced too) their road switcher for a bit more hp to deal with the newer freight services
04:04:45 <drac_boy> oh and on a slight related note its a weird thing but a lot of the early diesels that were sold for shunting or branchline duty often really got assigned to mainline trains (whether these had setouts to do enroute or not)
04:05:13 <drac_boy> nothing like seeing a cummins-sounding V1000 doing 80kph with a mixed freight train :)
04:06:10 <Flygon> That happened here with the Y-Classes...
04:06:23 <Flygon> They were build for little used branchlines (65km/h, 480hpish)
04:06:35 <Flygon> Then as soon as the production run was completed, the branchlines shut down
04:06:41 <Flygon> So they were repurposed for shunting
04:06:53 <Flygon> Then VR tried to find a more economical use for them...
04:06:57 <Flygon> So they reassigned them for freight
04:07:05 <Flygon> Then VR needed more passenger services on the mainlines...
04:07:39 <Flygon> Predictably, the programme to have a 65km/h severely underpowered 25 year old loco hauling peak hour services on the mainlines was underappreciated by the public.
04:11:50 <drac_boy> heh well if "peak hour" mean more than four axle-ac coaches then umm yeah we do indeed have a problem here? :)
04:14:00 <Flygon> But... considering the same consists were being hauled by Ns and A-Class locos (2500hp 115km/h...)
04:14:26 <Flygon> Even the T/P-Classes hauling the same sets were far quicker (900-1100hp 100km/h)
04:17:17 <drac_boy> ex-steam headlights (that explains their big size) aside to light-backed numberboards (a real shunter doesn't need these as the operator towers would rarely be seeing such units)
04:17:23 <Flygon> Looks like a bloody T-Class to me
04:20:57 <drac_boy> well flygon many of these just ran around at like 5-30kph .. some of them did share similar gearings from the geep due to similar trucks tho
04:21:26 <drac_boy> but for mainline they were never designed for that (lot worser if its the cab facing forward as theres only one thin sheetmetal between a crash and the engineer's seat)
04:21:28 <Flygon> It just looks extremely oversized for a shunter, is all
04:21:39 <Flygon> Most were designed to be tiny af here
04:22:01 <Flygon> Hence why most tended to have just 40hp
04:22:03 <drac_boy> flygon well its as small as it could be especially as the last 2-3 feet in front is taken up by a shutterable radiator .. and the non-engine part probably need a bit of its own space too
04:22:38 <drac_boy> the vents-inclusive side door panels probably hints to how small the engine is
04:22:51 <Flygon> I think the smallest here were just air-cooled
04:22:57 <drac_boy> flygon..yeah there were blind-like vertical shutters in front of the radiator ... mainly to avoid running too cold
04:23:10 <Flygon> Riight right, it snows there
04:28:11 <drac_boy> since engine's off the shutters are completely closed naturally
04:28:26 <drac_boy> otherwise they would be parallel to the sides and you'll be watching the big fan spinning in front of you :)
04:29:02 <Flygon> I gotta do IRL stuff in a few mins x3
04:29:26 <drac_boy> I'm going sleep soon too so..talk next time ok?
04:29:35 <drac_boy> and btw I dunno if the aussie ones had same thing but here well...
04:30:20 <drac_boy> the emd FT (and some F3 till they finally automated that) had manual shutters on the sides so you had to have the fireman running back to close them when going into long tunnel .. open them when running hot in open ... close them when train came to a long stop (even in summer)
04:30:35 <drac_boy> but anyway talk about that next time :P have fun shipping ;)
04:31:44 * drac_boy throws some empty shopping bags at flygon?
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05:33:33 <sim-al2> T class is basically an Aussie EMD G8
05:34:33 <sim-al2> EMDs no matter the type tended to have very similar lines
05:36:08 <Flygon> sim-al2: Basically? It's practically the same vehicle.
05:36:28 <sim-al2> Different roofs over time though
05:36:29 <Flygon> Though the Aussie ones seem to've lasted longest in commission
05:36:37 <Flygon> And by that I mean, they're still being used 65 years later
05:36:50 <Flygon> I'm half expecting them to continue to be used until they're 100 years old for freight...
05:38:16 <sim-al2> Also the change from 567 to 645 over production life
05:42:32 <sim-al2> It is interesting that all the current Aussie diesel locomotives being built are for mainlines only
06:37:14 <Flygon> Think of it this way, sim
06:37:27 <Flygon> The need to shunt has been SIGNIFICANTLY lowered as time has gone on
06:37:32 <Flygon> And is only really used for freght
06:38:01 <Flygon> And it's simply easier and more convenient to use the same sort of locomotives for everything rather than having shunters sitting about
06:38:13 <Flygon> And even then, we have a lot of perfectly functional shunters sitting about
06:38:36 <Flygon> From a Victorian perspective, at least, you have all the 1950s and 60s shunters VR built
06:38:49 <sim-al2> They aren't young though, and unlike the US there's been no major rebuilds for many of them
06:38:51 <Flygon> And the T/P-Class locos are pretty decent shunters
06:39:09 <Flygon> Still, it does reflect the fact that it's simply easier for everyone to shunt using mainline locos
06:39:34 <Flygon> I really must say though
06:39:43 <Flygon> I am not entirely familiar with operations outside of Victoria
06:39:55 <sim-al2> True, pure switchers here are pretty much gone, in favor of units that can at least try to do road jobs too
06:39:57 <Flygon> We're kind of a galapagos of Australian rail operations
06:40:35 <sim-al2> Dat QR narrow gauge though
06:41:14 <Flygon> WA's a bit of a mixed bunch
06:41:28 <Flygon> The Pilbura (North-West of the state) uses SG lines
06:41:39 <Flygon> And carry some incredible axle loads along with that
06:41:47 <Flygon> The NG segment is just near where Perth is
06:42:02 <Flygon> The regional that DOES exist going out of Perth is mostly just SG, and tied in with the line to Sydney
06:42:09 <sim-al2> Pliabra is straight up NA heavy haul
06:42:18 <Flygon> Queensland is it's own galapagos network though
06:42:38 <Flygon> I am a bit surprised they did Diesel instead of 50kv electric
06:43:18 <sim-al2> I suppose the lower inital cost was more important, and probably wise given the drop in ore prices recently
06:43:52 <Flygon> The tropical cyclones and the fact that they built for utterly absurd axle loadings might've simply made way op Diesels more economical
06:44:17 <sim-al2> It's not like you can't ballast an electric locomotive, see the IORE
06:44:36 <sim-al2> Or the South African 50kv heavy haul
06:44:42 <Flygon> It's not for ballasting
06:45:05 <Flygon> It's simply that the wagons are that heavy and there's no harm in making a Diesel loco absurdly heavy too for sheer extra Tim Taylor power xP
06:45:19 <Flygon> Also with 50kv, I was actually thinking of the Najavo line
06:45:44 <sim-al2> Need that starting effort to move trains of that size, especially once the track gets a little dusty/wet
06:46:00 <sim-al2> They add ballast to the diesels too
06:46:12 <Flygon> I do note, Victoria had some interesting experiences with this
06:46:21 <Flygon> When we built the 1500vDC line to Traralgon
06:46:32 <Flygon> (Coal Briquette traffic)
06:46:43 <sim-al2> Example: the Santa Fe bought Dash 9 locomotives that weighted 395,000 lbs, while I believe some BNSF coal units were up around 415,000 lbs
06:46:56 <Flygon> We ordered the most powerful electric locomotives possible, that fit inside a 17t/axle limit
06:47:18 <Flygon> This caused a lot of arguments between VR designers and English Electric (whom helped in designing and manufacturing)
06:47:33 <Flygon> EE kept saying "The locomotives don't have enough weight! You'll never stop wheelspinning!"
06:47:44 <Flygon> VR insisted they wanted precisely what they demanded
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06:48:08 <Flygon> Unsurprisingly, the machines tended to wheelslip quite badly with heavier briquette loads... which VR fixed by simply adding a second L-class loco on
06:48:32 <Flygon> Because apperantly the solution to having too much power is to add more power (and traction) xP
06:48:48 <Flygon> They made excellent passenger locos, however
06:49:04 <Flygon> And would actually substitute suburban services if the EMUs sometimes carked it
06:49:12 <sim-al2> Adhesive weight, although I'm sure those trains kept up much better with double the power
06:49:21 <Flygon> So, in that sense, they were so overpowered they could fill in our equivilant of a subway EMU xP
06:49:57 <Flygon> But, yeah. They had very little adhesive weight for the intended traffic, but they worked extremely well otherwise
06:50:12 <Flygon> Just a shame the Geelong electrification never got off the ground (VR ran out of money)
06:50:30 <Flygon> They were the most powerful locomotives in the state until the G-Class came around the late 1970s
06:51:07 <Flygon> And even then, by today's standards
06:51:10 <Flygon> Despite being 60 years old
06:51:17 <Flygon> They're incredibly powerful
06:52:03 <Flygon> I'm not sure what it was with VR and making incredible machines that couldn't go anywhere...
06:52:14 <Flygon> I mean, you know about the H-Class, right?
06:52:42 <sim-al2> Those did have a specific role in mind though
06:54:25 <Flygon> But even then... if they were still able to be around proper for the 1950s and standardized
06:54:32 <Flygon> They would've been incredibly useful for traffic to Sydney
06:54:50 <sim-al2> Oh different H class :)
06:55:10 <Flygon> Yeah, I'm talking about the one that was the most powerful locomotive in Australia from 1937ish to 1995 xP
06:55:49 <sim-al2> Although amusingly enough the H-class diesels were limited in routing too
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06:56:52 <Flygon> Oooooooh, you mean the T-Class derivative?
06:57:05 <Flygon> The one with the increased axle loads for shunting reasons?
06:57:27 <sim-al2> Yeah, the steam one had a pretty good axle load too
06:59:18 <Flygon> Mate, it could barely run on any of VR's lines! :D
07:00:48 <sim-al2> I do like how the axle load limits haven't really increased that much
07:05:58 <Flygon> The reasons for this aren't good
07:06:03 <Flygon> The track infrastructure here is abysmal
07:06:23 <Flygon> Road Lobby Brown Paper Bags
07:07:01 <sim-al2> It's interesting that some of the more recent diesels had to skip AC traction for weight reasons, or suffer from having to limit fuel capacity
07:07:19 <Flygon> Limit fuel capacity?...
07:07:27 <Flygon> What sort of distances are you guys trying to do?
07:07:39 <Flygon> Even our interurban DMUs can go for 3,000km on a single tank
07:08:05 <sim-al2> No, that would be your private freight operators, see the TT class with three selectable fuel limits
07:08:48 <sim-al2> As opposed to our mainline diesels with 19000 liter tanks
07:09:14 <Flygon> Sorry, easy to forget that not everywhere had everything done by a single operator
07:09:32 <Flygon> (VR tended to want every Diesel loco to be able to handle long haul pax. no problemo)
07:10:18 <sim-al2> They do seem to have been able to, the P class is a cool idea if a bit limited
07:10:41 <Flygon> The A/P-Class was an experiment, but, particulary with the A
07:10:56 <Flygon> It was cheaper to just order additional N's instead and use the existing B's for freight and pax
07:11:12 <Flygon> There's a photo of a B-Class going through Sunbury in VR livery around 1993
07:11:22 <Flygon> Despite VR having being dissolved 14 years earlier
07:12:38 <Flygon> I have no idea where to find the photo
07:13:38 <sim-al2> Always a very nice one, surprised they didn't all get the orange though
07:13:40 <Flygon> And it's being used for urban runs...
07:13:52 <Flygon> Nah, the B-Class never got painted V/Line orange
07:14:00 <sim-al2> Not exactly the Spirit of Progress
07:14:21 <Flygon> It's incredible how low VR / V/Line had fallen by the 90s...
07:14:37 <Flygon> That's one loco, a luggage van, a first, and second class carriage (iirc)
07:15:16 <Flygon> For comparison, this same town now gets 6 carriage Comeng/Siemens sets frequently. A lot changed in 20 years.
07:15:31 <Flygon> Okay, so, some Bs did get repainted O_o
07:15:50 <Flygon> That would've been hell for the drivers
07:16:05 <Flygon> The reason the A's have the black hoods with matte paint to prevent glare
07:16:32 <sim-al2> I've always wondered about the designers who choose gloss paint and no glare shields...
07:17:29 <Flygon> Rail infrastructure here's just a mess
07:17:44 <Flygon> The only difference is the B being an N or an A instead
07:18:24 <Flygon> Yeah, that's either matte paint or matte sheet
07:18:44 <sim-al2> I think it's a sheet judging by the raised surface
07:18:50 <Flygon> Most modern locos here don't even have a hood
07:19:07 <Flygon> Hell, VR stopped wanting hoods by the 1970s
07:19:42 <Flygon> Fantastic at both Freight and Pax. xP
07:19:50 <sim-al2> Ours really have them for the toilet space and the crash protection
07:20:10 <Flygon> (also that exact photograph reminds me of Mad Max for some reason...)
07:20:25 <Flygon> Heh... that's part of the reason the A's got phased out of long distance here
07:20:32 <Flygon> The N's have onboard toilets
07:21:12 <sim-al2> The earliest US diesels sometimes had a steam generator in the short hood, not sure that I would put it there...
07:21:46 <Flygon> An A in Navy Blue livery, a B from when WCR still existed and owned the B, and an S in V/Line Orange for... some reason (???)
07:22:01 <Flygon> All in the same era the VLocity DMUs were being tested 200km/h+...
07:22:52 <sim-al2> See the inventory of a US class one railroad, there's still a few units in paint of railroads that stopped existing in the mid 90's...
07:24:12 <Flygon> Here, you DO get old locos intentionally painted in outdated liveries
07:24:27 <Flygon> Cue VR B-Classes ending up in VR livery in Brisbane
07:24:55 <sim-al2> Well a few have gone and done that now; apparently people have positive (!?) memories of Penn Central
07:27:47 <Flygon> I'm not sure if a few of the locos will be repainted in WCR in future
07:27:59 <Flygon> These locos have gone through so many owners...
07:28:32 <Flygon> Hell, and this isn't taking into account the geneology of some sets here
07:29:04 <Flygon> I'm half-expecting in 20-30 years for VLocities to be painted in Xplorer/Endeavor and Hunter liveries
07:29:21 <Flygon> Due to being either directly descendant or being brother/sister xP
07:29:28 <sim-al2> Huh, I assumed the old paint schemes were part some of them being essentiallly museum machines
07:29:35 <Flygon> Then again, this might happen in an official capacity anyway...
07:29:41 <Flygon> Well, it's part museum
07:29:44 <sim-al2> Especially the B's and S's still rolling around
07:29:54 <Flygon> A few QR locos run on NG lines in Victoria
07:30:03 <Flygon> They never held that livery
07:31:00 <Flygon> Nah, we don't have that
07:31:13 <Flygon> 762mm railways were built by VR for lines determined to be too expensive for 1600mm
07:31:36 <Flygon> 1067mm would've been too wide.
07:31:47 <sim-al2> I suppose Queensland built 1067mm because of the hills on the coasts, but the rest of the state seems rather flat...
07:32:03 <Flygon> And 600mm wasn't considered due to the lack of predicent for VR
07:32:10 <Flygon> 762mm is based directly on Indian Railways
07:32:19 <Flygon> Queensland's an interesting point
07:32:26 <Flygon> They build the lines where Brisbane were
07:32:31 <sim-al2> 600mm seems close to "minimum gauge"
07:32:33 <Flygon> Which's on the Northern end of the Great Dividig Range
07:32:52 <Flygon> Or - They built 1067mm initially because they built their capital city into a mountain
07:33:02 <Flygon> Despite the entire rest of the state being plains
07:33:14 <Flygon> Queensland needs standardization... but nobody will pay for it.
07:33:27 <Flygon> And it'd be an engineering... well
07:33:34 <Flygon> A combination of engineering feat and nightmar
07:34:00 <Flygon> VR would be easy to SGize by comparison
07:34:10 <Flygon> The biggest issue for Queensland is, is that their loading gauge is... er
07:34:27 <Flygon> Let's say that Queensland loading gauge and British loading gauge are buttbuddies
07:34:50 <Flygon> New South Welsh loading gauge is huge by comparison, and sets the standard for the country
07:34:53 <sim-al2> *cue image of interstate double stacks*
07:35:07 <Flygon> Victoria's a tiny bit smaller, but easily worked around
07:35:28 <Flygon> Issue with Interstate Double Decks is that you'd need to build them to the same gauge as Sydney's DD stock...
07:35:37 <Flygon> And that makes building DMUs a nightmare
07:35:43 <Flygon> But locomotives are well on their way out.
07:35:53 <Flygon> And nobody wants to build a 25kv overhead
07:36:26 <sim-al2> I mean the ones that run on the line to Perth, since apparently there's no bridges and they built enormous rolling stock for the runs\
07:37:10 <Flygon> Yeah, that handles some pretty tall cargo
07:37:14 <Flygon> You could certainly do it
07:38:14 <sim-al2> I read somewhere that those locomotives spend 50%+ time at full power due to the winds
07:38:33 <sim-al2> As opposed to less than 25% for most railways worldwide
07:38:38 <Flygon> Is there a market for that much pax capacity?
07:38:46 <Flygon> Esp. given how easy it is to just make the trains longer
07:39:06 <sim-al2> I was talking about freight, although tall passenger cars make for nice long distance
07:40:53 <Flygon> Sorry, was thinking about pax x.x
07:45:27 <sim-al2> Bilevels are somewhat common for commuter operations too, depends on passenger loading and the length of stops desired though
07:55:16 <Flygon> What's the acceleration and top speed like?
07:55:42 <Flygon> (it'd be impossible to make a DD VLocity. The entire platform is designed around absurd acceleration based on Diesel-Hydralic transmisison)
07:56:44 <sim-al2> Hmm, I have no idea. Top speed is probably 80 or 90 mph
07:57:11 <sim-al2> Not exactly a lot of floor space underneath, the company also happened to go bankrupt
07:57:25 <Flygon> It's an acceptable top speed (VLos hit 100mph), but the acceleration would need to be at least 0.8m/s/s
07:57:36 <Flygon> But... that's all irrelevant
07:57:50 <Flygon> Because the loading gauge utterly breaks anything inside Melbourne or Sydney
07:58:07 <sim-al2> Found a brochure that says twin 600hp engines (oh god the fuel burn)
07:59:01 <Flygon> That's nearly twice the horsepower than per VLo unit...
07:59:05 <Flygon> That's utterly bonkers
07:59:13 <Flygon> How the crap do you fit them?????
07:59:32 <sim-al2> They were 18 feet high, there should be some room
07:59:46 <sim-al2> This claims 0-55 mph in 49 seconds
08:00:06 <Flygon> They're 1.4 meters too tall
08:00:20 <Flygon> Sydney's EMUs barely scrape inside the loading gauge, and they're around 4.4m
08:00:43 <Flygon> Melbourne would limit you to 4.2mish
08:01:04 <Flygon> I'm very very surprised USA lacks more DDs
08:01:12 <Flygon> Though, I can think of one big reason stopping Sydney-style services
08:01:19 <sim-al2> I'm suspicious of this brochure though, because it claims EMU-type performance
08:01:23 <Flygon> Your platforms are, frankly. Too low.
08:01:37 <Flygon> Sydney only works because you get THREE decks, not two
08:02:02 <Flygon> The passengers board what's effectively the second floor of the EMU, and from there goes to either the first (bottom) or third (top)
08:02:19 <Flygon> This means passenger flow can go through quickly. Almost as easily as a standard Melbourne set.
08:02:37 <Flygon> But the USA/Europe, with the near-ground level platforms
08:02:41 <Flygon> Makes that solution impossible
08:02:57 <sim-al2> We have high level you know
08:03:01 <Flygon> Yes, to unboard from the Lakeshore train from the top floor
08:03:09 <Flygon> You need to go down two sets of stairs
08:03:20 <Flygon> New Jersey is an exemption to the rule I've seen in the USA
08:03:33 <Flygon> Though, as a personal note
08:03:43 <Flygon> I observe that their doors are about half as wide as they should be
08:04:04 <sim-al2> It's a commuter operation, not a subway
08:04:25 <Flygon> I know what you're saying, but there's a very big cultural drift here
08:04:38 <Flygon> EVERY single passenger platform for almost every railway company in Australia
08:04:46 <Flygon> Is raised fairly high off the ground
08:04:59 <Flygon> The only low platform service to come to mind are the Tramways
08:05:22 <Flygon> Even on remote branchlines we built this way
08:05:32 <Flygon> But USA and Europe didn't build this way to save money
08:06:16 <sim-al2> It also allows larger cars, which improved everything else
08:07:05 <Flygon> I would have thought that having passengers load from ground level would reduce the amount of space available, and cause problems trying to engineer more complex equipment
08:07:23 <Flygon> Or - You'd have far less room underfloor inside each carriage/unit to stuff equipment
08:07:27 <sim-al2> Cars aren't restricted by 19th century building standards, see Britain's problems
08:07:49 <Flygon> We built the way we did BECAUSE the existing standards in the UK were outdated
08:07:54 <Flygon> We built in the 1850s.
08:08:05 <Flygon> The UK's stuuuuffed xD
08:09:27 <sim-al2> The commuter operations here should be compared to something like V/Line's suburban ops, Sydney's electrics are very different from most thing running here
08:10:09 <Flygon> V/Line's suburban operations run to the exact same standards as Metro's here
08:10:23 <Flygon> Geelong even gets trains every 6-12 minutes at peak hour
08:11:25 <sim-al2> Ok, our government in it's infinite wisdom dumped all the post-war money into highways, leaving us permantly stuck with we can be scraped together
08:12:00 <Flygon> I'm not saying you guys wouldn't build to a higher standard if you could
08:12:03 <Flygon> Just that nobody's got money
08:12:09 <Flygon> The exact same thing happened here, trust me
08:12:34 <Flygon> We just got lucky because 1860s-1890s Victoria was practically the richest part of the entire British empire
08:12:51 <Flygon> Then we crashed the entire British empire economically because of a housing speculation bubble.
08:13:11 <Flygon> This might have convinced the British to let go of Australia without fighting
08:14:44 <Flygon> Not saying that the same solution would have worked for the USA, mind :P
08:15:07 <sim-al2> At this point low platforms are basically required out west anyway, as the cars are built for low level anyway
08:16:02 <Flygon> And a conversion programme would result in decades of isolates happening as lines are converted
08:16:09 <Flygon> And probably end up like the state of SG in Victoria
08:16:17 <sim-al2> Level boarding is much more important, and high platforms don't guarentee it anyway
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08:18:53 <Flygon> Gaps here are a pretty big problem for some stations
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08:25:39 <Flygon> Gauntlet tracks seems a bit odd...
08:25:45 <Flygon> Most freight stuff is same width as pax here
08:26:05 <sim-al2> Most passenger cars are narrow for full nation wide gauge compliance
08:26:31 <sim-al2> Some areas limit the movement of the widest freight cars
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08:27:50 <Flygon> You have a MAXIMUM width legally allowable for any passenger car??
08:28:14 <sim-al2> Um no, it's AAR Plate C loading gauge that is almost universal
08:28:41 <sim-al2> There are some Plate F cars running around that are wider
08:29:01 <Flygon> Here, whatever just runs... er
08:29:17 <sim-al2> That's what loading gauge means
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09:51:03 <Alberth> /me considers renaming the channel to #train-discussions :)
09:56:28 <Flygon> OpenTTD is pretty much the most 'powerful' train sim on the market that isn't expensive or taxing
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10:11:20 <peter1138> nor is it a train sim, but hey
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10:12:12 <Flygon> peter1138: It's secondary function can be powerful!
10:12:33 <Alberth> train sim would involve physics of friction of the wheels, and moving masses of the engine and wagons and its cargo, imho
10:13:54 <Alberth> not to mention time schedules to arrive at stations for getting all the pax home in time
10:14:41 <Flygon> Alberth: Fine. Train NETWORK sim. xP
10:15:06 <Flygon> It can't be imposssssssible to capture some elements listed tho xP
10:15:37 <Flygon> But nobody seems to like my "Perhaps we should consider the fact that Diesel-Hydralic DMUs don't have a 'standard' acceleration curve" idea xP
10:16:13 <Alberth> tycoon don't handle such small details :)
10:16:43 <Flygon> It isn't possible for a NewGRF to handle this?
10:16:45 <andythenorth> just dibble the TE a bit :P
10:18:04 <andythenorth> for a while, I wanted a way to set the ratio of the planetary gears in logging truck axles in HEQS
10:18:22 <andythenorth> now I have adjusted my concerns, to things that a worth caring about :P
10:18:24 <Alberth> I have no idea where the NewGRF limits are, imho they are too far anyway :p
10:18:31 <andythenorth> like ‘how do I get seafood into this economy’ :P
10:18:55 <Alberth> make a sea-based economy? :)
10:20:10 <andythenorth> deliver bait, get fish
10:20:40 <andythenorth> deliver growth hormone, get farmed salmon
10:21:48 <andythenorth> fishing vessel construction yard -> requires nets, steel, diesel
10:34:17 <andythenorth> looks good to me
10:47:48 <andythenorth> I need more input / output cargos per industry :P
10:48:11 <andythenorth> ha ha, I could muck about with tile acceptance, but that is ugly
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10:58:07 <funkypudi> any admin moderator helper here to help?
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11:07:56 <andythenorth> so I add both ‘tyres’ cargo and ‘vehicle parts’ cargo
11:08:09 <andythenorth> “but andythenorth tyres ARE vehicle parts, no?"
11:08:18 <andythenorth> the chains are fricking weird otherwise
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12:39:58 <TrueBrain> hi Alberth! Don't know if frosch already told you, but I install eints for OpenTTD. Looks really good, you guys did a very nice job on that. Even more so on documentation etc :D
12:40:09 <TrueBrain> The only issue is that import takes several minutes .. frosch indicated that should be seconds :P
12:40:20 <TrueBrain> It also runs very well on PyPy3 btw ;) (and a lot faster, ofc :D)
12:41:13 <Alberth> pypy3 is a jit compiler, I take it?
12:42:37 <Alberth> import is just startup, or is it update of strings after a commit?
12:42:46 <TrueBrain> the latter seems fine
12:43:03 <TrueBrain> just the import (at startup & commit) takes ~6 minutes
12:43:12 <Alberth> and as for documentation, sorry, I document everything :p
12:43:15 <TrueBrain> not a real issue, tbh, WT3 can be slower if all languages are touched :D
12:43:28 <TrueBrain> hehe; no clue why you are sorry :P
12:43:54 <TrueBrain> but we do have to pimp the script doing the updating, to only update the languages that are changed, basically ;)
12:44:34 <Alberth> ah right, smarter updating would be a nice first step :)
12:44:59 <TrueBrain> it still leaves the question for me, why on frosch his VM it was seconds, and for me it is minutes .. so something is a bit wonky
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12:45:29 <TrueBrain> but I had a Q for you: when you create a project that already exists, can I get an error code from the script entry point? Is that easily possible?
12:45:34 <TrueBrain> now it is just silently ignored :)
12:46:09 <TrueBrain> hmm ... or is there an entry to check if a project already exists .. hmm .. I didnt check that
12:47:03 <Alberth> but euhm, "create project"? there is only one project, no?
12:47:20 <TrueBrain> basically, I am putting all of openttd.org configuration in Ansible
12:47:26 <TrueBrain> including deployment of eints
12:47:37 <TrueBrain> so I am trying to find a clean way to know if eints is already installed yes/no :)
12:48:57 <Alberth> make an deb, install, ask apt-cache or so? :p
12:49:09 <TrueBrain> hehe; that would work too :D
12:49:18 <TrueBrain> owh well, I will work something out :)
12:51:19 <TrueBrain> anyway, still a bit of work to do before we can use it, but I am really happy it works as clean as it does :)
12:52:02 <Alberth> good to hear, and thanks for the update
12:52:36 <Alberth> if you want something done, let me know
12:53:01 <TrueBrain> the LDAP stuff needs a bit of fixing up, but I think that was frosch's work, not?
12:53:34 <TrueBrain> and I have some minor things ... like removing the "new project" button; but that are minor details :)
12:55:33 <TrueBrain> now I need someone to come up with a replacement for BaNaNaS :D
12:56:30 <Alberth> we'd need a design first
12:56:56 <Alberth> the actual coding is perhaps not that difficult, I think
12:58:32 <Wolf01> gah, windows updates needs reboot
12:58:50 <Alberth> hmm, not fast enough :(
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13:18:58 <Alberth> wb to the updated world
13:19:12 <Wolf01> eh, the update failed to install :|
13:19:58 <Alberth> :( for update, \o/ for lunch
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14:55:02 <mykoserocin> "The network protocol is 100% endian safe. We made that possible by creating our own endian, sort to speak. We do not send packets, but we send bytes over the network. For example, when we want to send a int64, we send first byte 1, then byte 2, and so on. So the byte order is ALWAYS 1 2 3 4."
14:55:10 <mykoserocin> isn't this the same as little-endian?
15:01:33 <Alberth> no idea what "byte 1" means here
15:02:05 <Alberth> the point is however that the same order is used both at big-endian and little-endian machines, so they can talk to each other
15:03:44 <__ln___> wtf, who wrote that statement in the wiki?
15:04:04 <Rubidium> in that case byte 1 is bits 0..7, i.e. GB(..., 0, 8), byte 2 is bits 8..15, i.e. GB(..., 8, 8) etc.
15:04:32 <__ln___> it is basically saying "the protocol is 100% endian safe because we ignore the existence of endianness"
15:05:52 <mykoserocin> * - all > 1 byte integral values are written in little endian,
15:05:52 <mykoserocin> * unless specified otherwise.
15:09:32 <Alberth> what are you aiming to do?
15:11:12 <mykoserocin> me? just studying the protocol.
15:11:29 <__ln___> i'm aiming to go out for a walk.
15:18:46 <Alberth> ok, maybe you wanted to connect things through the protocol, but there are better ways to do that
15:19:27 <mykoserocin> Alberth: what do you mean?
15:20:14 <Alberth> there is an admin port for monitoring games at the server
15:20:41 <Alberth> which works way better than trying to decode the game protocol itself
15:22:15 <TrueBrain> __ln__: because clearly the me of 2004 never heard of network byte order
15:22:24 <TrueBrain> it seems we reinvented a very existing wheel ;)
15:23:27 <TrueBrain> (well, I hope it is only described in the wiki as if it is something new; I hope the code uses exisitng OS wrappers for it :P)
15:30:51 <Rubidium> yes, the wrappers are very open source ;)
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15:36:50 * drac_boy wonders if flygon got the empty bags from me :)
15:44:55 <drac_boy> hmm hey sim-a12 I think we're missing some usa rail flags :P
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19:45:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27454 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-11-22 19:45:10 +0100 )
19:45:19 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:20 <DorpsGek> korean - 4 changes by telk5093
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20:12:32 <Rubidium> sim-al2: do trains really need to go that slow on the bridge?
20:16:05 <sim-al2> I think it's because those units are still in testing, and that bridge was used for delivery to the line
20:16:31 <Rubidium> there is a sign saying 10, which might mean 10 mph
20:16:49 <Rubidium> (although here a sign with 10 means 100 km/h)
20:17:14 <sim-al2> 10mph, probably due to the age of the bridge; it's really just a freight route
20:19:59 <sim-al2> Looking at something else, they plan on replacing it with a drawbridge
20:24:09 <sim-al2> Oh wait, this bridge is still there and seems to not be on the line. Another swing bridge was replaced
20:32:06 <andythenorth> so am I smoking crack if I split ‘vehicle parts’ and ‘tyres'
20:34:49 <Alberth> if it makes sense from the industry chain pov, I'd say just do it
20:35:05 <Alberth> if people complain, tell them to ignore tyres :)
20:35:25 <andythenorth> I want three inputs to the vehicle factory
20:35:48 <andythenorth> I tried manufacturing supplies, but that’s weird, because it’s mostly paper, boxes, glasses, tins etc
20:36:03 <andythenorth> I could use chemicals, quite plausibly
20:36:12 <andythenorth> but nearly everything accepts chemicals :P
20:45:18 <Alberth> you could make it 'doors' or 'engines' or so
20:45:35 <andythenorth> I have dug around, I think chemicals is fine as third cargo
20:45:39 <Alberth> but imho tyres is fine too
20:45:44 <andythenorth> players don’t like it, they can play a different thing
20:46:16 <andythenorth> it’s a weird industry, vehicles. The chain is longer than most FIRS chains
20:47:00 <andythenorth> this Arctic economy will be quite different to others. There are 2 or 3 very short chains (farm -> food -> town etc). And one very long chain.
20:47:19 * andythenorth needs a GS to test it with :D
20:48:51 <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
20:49:00 <andythenorth> rubber -> tyre plant (probably quite easy to draw)
20:49:06 <Alberth> I remember someone saying BB was done :p
20:49:36 <Alberth> no plastic wheels? :)
20:49:45 <andythenorth> tyre plant can be added
20:49:51 <andythenorth> BB is ‘done’, except the bugs :P
20:52:33 <sim-al2> [13:48] <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
20:52:35 <sim-al2> [13:48] <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
20:53:27 <andythenorth> ‘tyre plant’ or ‘tyre factory’ ?
20:53:48 <Alberth> large buildings for such small tyres :)
20:54:11 <sim-al2> It's a complicated product though
20:54:36 <andythenorth> the world’s biggest tyre maker is in Denmark
20:54:43 <andythenorth> it makes very small tyres...
20:55:00 <Rubidium> you mean the one making the largest amount, right?
20:55:13 <Rubidium> not the one making the biggest tyres, or that one as well?
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21:06:51 <andythenorth> ha, an economy with no manufacturing supplies :)
21:06:58 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
21:06:59 <andythenorth> but it’s primarily a manufacturing economy
21:07:04 * andythenorth is pleased by this
21:07:51 <drac_boy> whats the 'this'? heh :)
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21:14:24 <andythenorth> this economy has Fishing Harbour. Fishing Harbour needs manufacturing supplies (MNSP). No MNSP in this economy.
21:14:34 <andythenorth> 1) change Fishing Harbour only in this economy
21:14:38 <andythenorth> 2) change it for all economies
21:14:48 <andythenorth> 3) have a different destination for Fish cargo?
21:16:22 <Alberth> ie it would break many economies, wouldn't it?
21:16:26 <andythenorth> not really break
21:16:33 <andythenorth> just changes the behaviour of that industry
21:16:46 <andythenorth> currently both cargos are needed for max output
21:16:57 <andythenorth> I never bother delivering MNSP to fishing harbours anyway :P
21:17:00 <Alberth> but I'd guess you balanced MN use
21:17:02 <drac_boy> andy oh well I would only do #1 for that specific economy parameter if it was me
21:17:52 <andythenorth> I could swap Fishing Grounds -> Fish -> Fishing Harbour -> Food
21:17:54 <Alberth> send fish to the workers of the tyre factory? :)
21:17:57 <andythenorth> to Fish Farm -> Food
21:18:06 <andythenorth> fish is in every economy, it gets old :P
21:18:23 <drac_boy> not to someone who needs a supply of food without large land impact :)
21:18:35 <Alberth> yep, a change of the chain would be useful
21:18:47 <andythenorth> can’t have Norway without fish, right?
21:18:53 <andythenorth> I could just drop it :P
21:19:09 <drac_boy> andy...or most arctic maps in fact... beside its easier to find fish ground than a rare flat land for farm fields
21:19:19 <drac_boy> just my own comment anyhow
21:19:46 <Alberth> fish farms are often on water too :)
21:20:36 <andythenorth> that’s my thought
21:20:40 <andythenorth> and not hard to draw
21:26:37 * drac_boy still need to draw a bit more since just a bit before last weekend :-s
21:26:45 <andythenorth> ha ha, this economy has 23 industries, and 8 of them require chemicals
21:27:33 <andythenorth> distorted much? o_O
21:27:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ inverse silicon valley? o_O
21:28:02 <andythenorth> “Your goal is to build 10 industries consuming chemicals”
21:32:48 <drac_boy> guess that would depend what kind of industries these chemicals are going to. if its eg the paperwork that probably makes sense for it to optionally want a small amount
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21:33:12 <andythenorth> maybe it’s printer ink
21:35:00 * drac_boy still can't quite get the hang of drawing bigger buildings anyhow :-s (at least not all industries have to be drawn in big size so..no comment)
21:35:46 <andythenorth> draw small buildings, and use lots of them
21:41:48 <drac_boy> well for 256x256 map that probably works a bit better too anyway
21:42:16 <drac_boy> ah I see what you really meant now
21:43:25 <andythenorth> there are some big 2x2 tile sprites
21:43:29 <andythenorth> but mostly 1x1 now
21:51:29 <drac_boy> at least (for me anyhow) vertical cylinders seem easier to draw once and shade a few times versus trying to draw a tanker vehicle/wagon every angle .. oh well thats pixels for you after all
21:51:56 <andythenorth> drawing industry is way more fun than drawing vehicles
21:52:04 <andythenorth> only one angle, and the shapes are all very easy
21:52:16 * andythenorth could draw industries all day long
21:52:23 <drac_boy> only thing of course is you need vehicles to actually use the industry with (unless you want to go with something like the pipelines.grf :P
21:52:41 <andythenorth> this is the problem
21:52:45 <andythenorth> also ships, are the worst
21:52:51 <andythenorth> and there zero good ship sets
21:53:02 <drac_boy> if you're interested in only buildings alone you always could modify your tools to draw the buildings for simcity instead :)
21:53:17 <drac_boy> I still dabble in the Constructor Kit for simcity2000 once in a while just for fun
21:57:09 <drac_boy> can't recall if any other construction-genre games have user moddable buildings too .. never really did look that much myself (due to having simcity already anyway)
21:58:07 <drac_boy> re ships..humm well...I do like newships.grf (save for sometimes introduction dates being odd) but otherwise yeah I don't think theres really been that much of any improvements past that
21:58:40 <andythenorth> drawing ships is zero fun
21:58:42 <drac_boy> I usually only run a few small passenger ferries aside to the occassional light/medium sized oilrig tankers for most part
21:59:35 <drac_boy> anything else such as a far-reach coal mine I rather run one or two russia planes in daily service :)
22:01:19 <mykoserocin> what is the purpose of the 8-byte arbitrary data in the PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT message?
22:02:18 <mykoserocin> it also gets sent to all the connected clients even if it's not needed
22:02:20 <drac_boy> ip-like field perhaps? (just like an internet packet)
22:02:39 <mykoserocin> drac_boy: care to elaborate?
22:02:57 * drac_boy points to an actual coder somewhere else in the user list instead >>>
22:08:43 <mykoserocin> here's an example packet:
22:08:45 <mykoserocin> 0000 16 00 1c 03 02 02 00 00 00 74 65 73 74 00 fe ed .........test...
22:08:45 <mykoserocin> 0010 fa ce de ad be ef ......
22:09:13 <Rubidium> what does the documentation say?
22:09:28 <mykoserocin> it says "arbitrary data"
22:09:55 <mykoserocin> but the purpose of that data is unclear
22:11:16 <Rubidium> that blackbook is rubbish
22:11:38 <Rubidium> someone once thought it be a good idea to copy the source code comments to wiki
22:11:39 <mykoserocin> well, i assume it might be used for money transfer messages, but why does server replicates it in ordinary chat messages...
22:12:29 <Rubidium> in any case, there are many chat-type messages. In this case "chat-type" means using the chat window to put some message
22:13:01 <Rubidium> so you send the type and based on the type it processes/formats the data differently
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22:14:16 <mykoserocin> Rubidium: "chat-type" — NetworkAction you mean?
22:15:06 <Rubidium> yes, but since you are giving links to obsolete documents saying NetworkAction type does not give any clue to you what it is
22:15:51 <Taede> the wiki also lists 3 unint8's while the black book lists uint8, uint16 and uint32
22:15:52 <mykoserocin> are there any non-obsolete documents except source code?
22:16:49 <Rubidium> anyhow, when you send money a "chat" message with GIVE_MONEY type is sent with the name of the company and the amount. Depending on whether "you" were the one sending the money or receiving the money, a different message is shown
22:17:49 <Rubidium> but what basically happens in any case is passing the client name, the "arbitrary" text and "arbitrary" number onto the string formating stack, and then format a string depending on the networkaction (+ some local knowledge)
22:19:47 <Rubidium> although you need to know where to look
22:20:28 <drac_boy> you mean "24 hours give or take"? don't mind me :P
22:20:58 <mykoserocin> Rubidium: i think i've found it: SetDParam(2, data);
22:21:00 <mykoserocin> so this has to do with some home-made string scanner?
22:21:39 <Rubidium> drac_boy: not really, because "give or take" implies it could be less, but the maximum won't be less than 24 hours
22:21:44 <mykoserocin> i wonder why not use snprintf or something similar?
22:22:49 <Rubidium> because snprintf can't be extended
22:23:05 <Rubidium> e.g. we can't add custom formatting for currencies
22:23:34 <Rubidium> anyhow, it's more a gettext-ish thing
22:24:04 <mykoserocin> i see, but is this possible to use va_list (variardic function)?
22:24:43 <Rubidium> in theory one could make that, but in practice it won't be really helpful
22:26:00 <Rubidium> because now we can have ifs/cases that set the individual paramters, and with va_list you'd need to either make variables for everything *or* put all the logic into a single line
22:26:11 <mykoserocin> that'd increase readability a lot
22:32:10 * andythenorth shudders at variadic functions
22:32:18 <andythenorth> for a while, there was a variadic version of FIRS
22:34:46 <Rubidium> although gettext has support for plural, it doesn't seem to have sprouted support for genders yet whereas OpenTTD handles them for about a decade now
22:35:29 <andythenorth> unrelated to openttd, is there anything better than gettext out there?
22:35:36 <andythenorth> it’s considered limiting for translating python web apps :P
22:35:42 <andythenorth> but is the only known game in town
22:36:19 <Rubidium> it has a python web app for translating it ;)
22:36:26 <andythenorth> that one cheats :P
22:36:37 <andythenorth> it uses openttd style string handling :P
22:37:15 <mykoserocin> wow, that's looks ugly :D
22:37:30 <andythenorth> the python i18n frameworks don’t _appear_ to support a default lang, so instead of falling back to english or so, you serve blank strings to end users if the string is missing :P
22:37:47 <mykoserocin> as far as I understand, the parser will use different string, depending on it's stack size?
22:37:48 <andythenorth> which breaks functionality horribly, e.g. <a href=“blah”></a> :P
22:39:34 <Rubidium> mykoserocin: true, it is ugly... however, imagine a language where the amount of reasons influences the paused verb
22:40:21 <Rubidium> and the only reason there are duplicates is because there are many reasons why the game could be paused that are compounded and only showing one made some users upset
22:40:51 <Rubidium> in this case, the parser will be given a different string (the parser itself doesn't look to stack size)
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22:43:10 <Rubidium> anyhow... OpenTTD's string system is vastly better suited than printf and gettext for languages that do not conform to the "base languages'" order
22:43:11 <mykoserocin> Rubidium: wouldn't gettext help in that case (amount of reasons influence the verb)?
22:43:35 <mykoserocin> but i see, you were talking about genders
22:43:57 <mykoserocin> are there any examples in the source code i can look for?
22:44:13 <Rubidium> mykoserocin: yes, but you can't then write some regular expression-ish thing to have 1 to 4 "outputs" between brackets
22:44:43 <Rubidium> so either you have to sprintf them after eachother, which might break horribly in some languages that use a different word order
22:44:52 <Rubidium> or you need to do something else weirds
22:45:30 <mykoserocin> printf("Game paused (%s%s%s)
22:46:21 <mykoserocin> printf("Game paused (%s%s)\n", (thing1 ? "thing1, " : ""), (thing2 ? "thing2, " : ""));
22:46:27 <mykoserocin> yeah, that won't work :)
22:46:31 <mykoserocin> because of commas
22:49:36 <mykoserocin> Rubidium: one could add {STRING_ALL} specifier to the string scanner, so it'd pop all the values and print them comma delimited
22:50:06 <mykoserocin> but that'd clearly violate the string format rule
22:50:59 <Rubidium> so from 3518 a number of types of vehicles are defined, with the gender in front of it
22:51:47 <glx> french also uses genders (including a fake one for some phrase constructions)
22:51:51 <Rubidium> when the string is constructed, the {G ...} stuff of e.g. line 3517 looks at the "included" strings to get the gender and then choose which of the genders to use
22:55:15 <Rubidium> and since you can stack string "inclusion", you can also say that you want the second substring of the first included string... but that's rarely ever used
22:58:30 <mykoserocin> thanks for the explanation, I wasn't aware of such nuances with some of the languages :)
22:59:20 <Rubidium> oh, this is the simple stuff
22:59:46 <glx> yeah add the cases on top of that ;)
22:59:48 <Rubidium> things start to get interesting with right-to-left languages such a Hebrew
23:00:19 <Rubidium> since their text goes from right-to-left, but not for numbers
23:00:21 <drac_boy> I think it wasn't only hebrew that does that
23:00:53 <drac_boy> right, I knew there was a common second one but just couldn't recall who glx
23:01:23 <Rubidium> the next step is Arabic, which is even more fun... because multiple characters influence eachother, so writing 3 characters in "code" (or on your keyboard) can result in one character on the screen
23:01:54 <glx> and the fun is even better when you mix these language with untranslated stuff like vehicle names ;)
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23:02:05 <Flygon> Oh man, I submitted art to websites with Arabic Title
23:02:22 <Flygon> Esp. since I also had the title in English
23:02:36 <drac_boy> oh I kinda know what you mean..on slider phone keyboards I sometimes find it funny when typing a different third letter can cause the second letter to get different symbols
23:02:39 <Flygon> And at least one refused to even accept the title as anything but ASCII
23:03:07 <drac_boy> so flygon did you fill up any shopping bags yesterday or what :P
23:03:40 * Flygon gives drac_boy some paper bags to play with
23:04:40 <Rubidium> oh... and then there are things that we don't support, like proper "thousand" grouping for some locales
23:05:32 <drac_boy> flygon I take it none? :)
23:05:55 <Flygon> Everything got put into the cupboard? xP
23:07:07 <mykoserocin> Rubidium: how about using LC_MONETARY for this one?
23:09:13 <mykoserocin> i'm not sure though if there's any alternative function to PHP's money_format()
23:09:59 <Rubidium> a function that doesn't work on Windows doesn't sound good enough for OpenTTD
23:10:00 <mykoserocin> it seems that ICU can handle this
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23:10:47 <mykoserocin> does OpenTTD gets compiled with ICU on Windows?
23:10:59 * Rubidium wonders how SI prefixes mess up the indian system
23:11:03 <glx> yes, and building ICU on windows is not fun
23:11:20 <Rubidium> 10,00,000 -> 10,00 k or 1,000 k?
23:11:24 <mykoserocin> glx: it is, but OpenTTD already uses it
23:12:06 <mykoserocin> judging by ./configure --help
23:15:55 <Rubidium> IMO missing that numbering format isn't a big problem though, and I dislike locales anyway because they never suit my needs
23:16:46 <Rubidium> I want English, but times with a 24 hour clock, metric numbers, comma as decimal separator and dots as thousand separator. Which locale do I need?
23:18:43 <drac_boy> anyway flygon you going sleep soon?
23:20:00 <mykoserocin> Rubidium: you can even configure wheter it's A4 or Letter by default with LC_PAPER :)
23:20:17 <drac_boy> ah heh ok well flygon I'm going off for a bit re supper and more but if you're around later we can have a bit of random chat again ok? :)
23:20:54 <Rubidium> Flygon: lucky bastard... you already have had almost two fifths of Monday
23:20:56 <slaca> there is a big feature in openttd in every year (cargodist, rivers, ..) I would like to know what will be the biggest feature in 1.6.0?
23:21:59 <Flygon> Rubidium: I USUALLY work Mondays.
23:24:00 <Rubidium> slaca: I don't think there will be something big in 1.6.0 (or 1.6.0 isn't release in early Q2 of 2016)
23:25:15 <slaca> thanks, i thought it will be released in 1. of april
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