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00:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "la notte" was a tv show here that was not very kid-friendly :p

00:01:05  <Supercheese> lupus noctis

00:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: not "nocturnis"?

00:02:42  <Supercheese> I think "della notte" would imply a genitive "of the night" rather than an adjective "nocturnal"

00:02:49  <Supercheese> but ymmv

00:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i never know what ymmv is

00:03:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you tell me, i'll forget by the next time someone writes it

00:04:17  <Supercheese> eh perhaps not a good use of that, more like, "suit yourself". But it is "Your mileage may vary", referencing "EPA estimates X miles per gallon" but they disclaim that this is an estimate only and your particular mileage could be different

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00:05:15  <Supercheese> in this case I perhaps should have instead said, "that's how I see it"

00:06:19  <Supercheese> and most folks in Europe use liters and kilometers anyway rather than miles and gallons

00:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: sure, your reasoning is perfectly valid, but the premise that __ln__ knows what he's talking about may be unstable :p

00:06:53  <Supercheese> perhaps ;)

00:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather trust an italian guy talking italian than a finnish guy talking italian :p

00:11:05  <mczapkie> OK, task finished (new water source for ECS is working)

00:11:21  <mczapkie> Good Night everybody

00:11:30  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i've successfully ordered ice cream in italian.

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00:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: well, people in europe used to use miles, but the problem was that everybody used a different mile

00:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> while the british imperial mile is around 1.6km, the german mile was 7.5km

00:12:31  <Supercheese> yeah, Roman miles, Scots miles...

00:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and the "german mile" was already a compromise between all the different miles used in the various german states

00:12:31  <Supercheese> can't forget Nautical miles

00:12:31  <Supercheese> sheesh

00:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the common bit about all the german miles was "2 hours at walking speed"

00:12:31  <Supercheese> well, I'm glad for automated unit conversions we have these days

00:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> or at least most of them

00:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but "walking speed" isn't particularly standardized

00:12:31  <Supercheese> my handheld calculator at least has always been able to convert the units I needed automatically

00:12:39  <Supercheese> __ln__: not gelato? :O

00:13:04  <__ln__> Supercheese: well, gelato, but that's italian and this channel is english only

00:13:09  <Supercheese> unless there isn't a distinction between the two in Italy

00:13:16  <Supercheese> there sure is here at least

00:13:46  <Supercheese> if you go to the store and ask where the "ice cream" is and the "gelato" is, you're pointed to two very different places

00:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the distinction is not very strong in german. people just say "ice" and context defines which one is meant

00:14:04  <Supercheese> and often two very different stores

00:14:37  <__ln__> Wolf01: c'è una differencia entre gelato e ice cream?   (pardon my half-spanish)

00:14:53  <Wolf01> no

00:14:58  <Wolf01> it's the same thing

00:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i just misunderstand what Supercheese is actually referring to

00:16:40  <Supercheese> well, here in the States, gelato is not at all equivalent to ice cream, but perhaps elsewhere this is not the case

00:16:57  <Supercheese> they are similar but very distinct

00:18:32  <Wolf01> maybe gelato in the States is what we call "granita", which is just grounded ice with flavoured syrup

00:18:36  <__ln__> "italian ice cream" (at least translated into some language, not necessarily in english) is a distinct concept elsewhere, too

00:19:25  <Supercheese> yeah, I consider "Italian ice cream" and "gelato" synonymous

00:19:58  <Supercheese> the latter being far more common;y used (and concise)

00:20:02  <Supercheese> ly*

00:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are different types of ice cream in germany. like "Speiseeis", which you'd usually serve as small balls in a cone or a glass. or "Softeis" which is squished out of a machine into a cone, or "Eis am Stiel", which is prefabricated on a stick, or "Wassereis" which is frozen water with usually some fruit taste. or simple "Eis" which is plain frozen water

00:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "italian ice cream" places would usually serve the first kind

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00:29:35  <__ln__> spaniards call it helado, but i think it's quite much the same type of thing as gelato that they sell in the heladerias.

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00:35:56  <drac_boy> hi

00:36:25  * drac_boy throws a metric steam valve wrench into sim-a12's direction :)

00:36:26  <drac_boy> heh

00:36:38  <Supercheese> a primary difference seems to be percent fat content, with gelato minimum 3.5% compared to ice cream's 10%

00:36:55  <Supercheese> (butterfat, that is)

00:46:01  <Flygon> Gelato is an independant product in Aussierand

00:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never looked at the fat content of these products

00:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> PS: "low fat" usually means "more sugar", which is probably even worse...

00:55:20  <Supercheese> yep...

00:58:01  <Wolf01> oh finally i can use the logistic robots in factorio

01:01:37  <drac_boy> hi wolf01 :)

01:01:45  <Wolf01> o/

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01:03:43  <drac_boy> ah, meh :-s

01:03:47  <drac_boy> oh well heh

01:04:18  <Flygon> Eddi: And family wonders why I don't buy low fat

01:04:21  <Flygon> Every time I got low fat

01:04:23  <Flygon> I got fatter

01:05:33  <drac_boy> flygon it really depends on food regulations tbh

01:05:40  <Flygon> Ehh

01:05:47  <Flygon> I would dare say America doesn't HAVE food regulations

01:05:48  <Flygon> :B:B

01:05:49  <drac_boy> here you can't hide fat/sodium under alternative logos at all

01:06:00  <Flygon> (whipped cheese wasn't legally classifiable as a food in Australia @_@)

01:06:16  <Supercheese> cheez whiz

01:06:21  <Supercheese> blaauugh

01:06:31  <Flygon> I aint sayin' they aint listed in the tables here. I'm just saying marketing overrides the ability to read a table. xP

01:06:41  <Flygon> Supercheese: I promise not to can you

01:06:45  <Flygon> Just promise not to ball me

01:06:55  <Supercheese> blaaaaauuuugh

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01:07:47  <Supercheese> maybe I'll use an apricorn instead

01:07:51  <Supercheese> oldschool

01:08:17  <Flygon> Sorry, someone's bad joke in a diff server actually crashed my IRC client

01:08:57  <Supercheese> so... if you pun hard enough, you can break the Internet?

01:09:27  <Flygon> Ys

01:09:28  <Flygon> Yes*

01:09:35  <Flygon> It didn't help that it was a subway joke

01:10:50  <drac_boy> subway? not LUL i hope :)

01:11:15  <Flygon> Oh, right

01:11:35  <Flygon> I'm in #openttd, I forgot some countries call their metropolis train networks Subways

01:11:51  <Flygon> Here, we just call it the Train Network :U

01:12:01  <Supercheese> well, just undergrounds mostly

01:12:37  <Supercheese> and the sub sandwich chain of restaurants :B

01:13:00  <drac_boy> flygon I only mentioned that because I know a site that quoted strange/funny messages heard on the tanny in the LUL system :)

01:13:04  <Flygon> (I still argue that a properly built Tram network is more convenient than a subway, combined with a long distance heavy rail. But, what do I know about transport planning xP)

01:13:31  <Flygon> Yeah, Subway just known for their footlongs here

01:13:41  <Supercheese> "What are your qualifications for transport design engineer?" "Well, I've played like, a billion games of OpenTTD..."

01:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> some towns are even worse, they put a miniscule part of their tram underground, and put the subway sign on it

01:13:54  <drac_boy> especially about an ex-plane captain now driving a tube and actually telling his passengers "we're at xxx altitude, temperature is xxx, timezone has not changed. have a good day!"

01:14:05  <drac_boy> I wonder about that sort of things sometimes heh

01:14:10  <Flygon> Eddi: Derp.

01:14:27  <Flygon> drac_boy: Well, the SCMaglev trains are technically aircraft...

01:14:38  <Flygon> They even have actual altitudes from the 'ground'

01:14:47  <Flygon> Frankly, it's a plane without wings!!!

01:15:00  <drac_boy> flygon as for transport planning .. you probably don't want to hire me if your city has a mess of underground sections :p

01:15:12  <Flygon> Melbourne? Eh

01:15:24  <drac_boy> otherwise just stay out of the way (and don't complain about art-isty wires in certain sections too) :)

01:15:25  <Flygon> The only real 'subway' part of it is the City Loop in the CBD

01:15:36  <Flygon> ?? What's wrong with wires?

01:15:42  <Flygon> I'm terrified of third rail

01:15:50  <Flygon> There's ZERO third rail networks in Australia!

01:16:01  <Flygon> And the wires we do have, at least, in Melbourne, particulary with the Trams

01:16:04  <Flygon> Are pretty well hidden

01:16:24  <drac_boy> btw why 'art-isty' I meant more like it does not look lik e aindustrial cement pole holding a simple steel i-beam

01:16:37  <drac_boy> thats the wrong way to go doing it but a lot of "cheap" cities apparently do it in these sort of ways

01:16:55  <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/E_6001_(Melbourne_tram)_in_Nicholson_St_on_route_96,_2013.JPG And this is actually on the 'worse' end of the spectrum for most of the network

01:17:06  <Flygon> http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/06/06/kn_tramsjpeg_wideweb__470x301,0.jpg Though, there is some exeptionally messy bits :B

01:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's more commonly steel poles here, i think

01:17:30  <Supercheese> Flygon: looks like San Francisco's muni trams/trolleybuses

01:17:59  <Supercheese> the overhead wire network, at least

01:18:09  <Flygon> Supercheese: SanFran is Northern Hemisphere Tram capital. Melbourne is Southern Hemisphere Tram capital

01:18:17  <Flygon> Not too surprised by some potentially shared styles/technologies xP

01:18:24  <Supercheese> Ha, I see

01:18:31  <drac_boy> umm...yeah too many wires period .. :)

01:18:59  <drac_boy> btw flygon..you aussie and we used to talk a bit about some of the older trains especially the red slamdoors right?

01:19:12  <Flygon> Too many wires? Hardly

01:19:28  <Flygon> Red slamdoors? That's a new one

01:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the weirdest part of that image is the tram driving on the wrong side

01:20:17  <drac_boy> I forgot the name..something about victorian emu with only one window (as the position for 2nd one wasn't there) for the cab ... and the side profile almost looked same as a normal coach if it wasn't for the pantographs

01:20:30  <Flygon> (excuse the instagram filter) http://41.media.tumblr.com/84ddabaa307c874142b7576f146a07db/tumblr_nvdsssi0hl1uwtj3no1_1280.jpg There's hardly any wires here!

01:20:54  <Flygon> drac_boy: You mean Red Rattler?

01:20:58  <drac_boy> "any wires"? well THAT is how I would do it to be honest :) .. just one long line per route/track :)

01:21:03  <Flygon> There was the Swing Door and Sliding Door varieties

01:21:30  <Flygon> The Swing Doors tended to get their doors lobbed off by bridges and tunnels

01:21:34  <drac_boy> flygon .. ah... yep thats it http://www.victorianrailways.net/photogallery/gall03/03-03.jpg

01:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i genuinely despise people who deliberately take colours out of pictures

01:21:41  <Flygon> As in... people left them unlocked, then the EMU would hit 80-100

01:21:50  <drac_boy> and btw I don't recall .. whats with that weird "hump" around the cab?

01:21:52  <Flygon> And then the doors hit some tight clearance areas

01:22:02  <Flygon> The hump?

01:22:12  <Flygon> The EMUs were built in the 1870s-1880s

01:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy who had colour pictures from like the 1950's. and he took the fricking colours out!

01:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and it even looked terrible!

01:22:31  <Flygon> It was the cestorly (I know I spelt that wrong) styling of the time

01:22:35  <Flygon> They got EMUized in the 1920s

01:23:15  <Flygon> Or - The hump serves no purpose whatsoever apart from looking cool

01:23:18  <drac_boy> flygon well in that photo I found .. it seem like theres supposed to be something beside the destination board taking up space in that full-width hump over the cab section itself

01:23:33  <Flygon> Oh, yes. I forgot about the desto board

01:23:38  <Flygon> But apart from that, no real purpose

01:24:15  <Flygon> Eddi: Now you know how I feel about American/European driving directions xP

01:24:24  <drac_boy> heh looks a little strange .. and the airhorn apparently appear to be mounted behind the hump .. can't wonder what it would sound like if the driver left these sideway-sliding windows opened!

01:24:35  <Flygon> Or - I find it impossible to play OTTD in Right-side driving x.x

01:25:07  <Flygon> drac_boy: I'm not sure if the windows were openable or not

01:25:15  <Flygon> Considering they were from the 1870s-1880s

01:25:32  <drac_boy> flygon well the two sections are not overlaid .. it looks like theres enough offset for one to slide over the other one

01:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> at least in germany, humps like this were common in the time of separately braked and unbraked wagons, so the train leader can oversee brake operators on the whole train

01:26:09  <drac_boy> eddi .. well this one is a bit odd because the cab window is to the right side but the hump's window is to the left side

01:26:30  <drac_boy> (unless they're using engineer/fireman placement difference)

01:27:04  <Flygon> Eddi: Considering the age of the carriages, that might actually be the reason

01:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the train leader is someone separate from the train driver

01:27:26  <Flygon> They were originally locomotive hauled (duh), and the carriage portion would have a guard at the rear end monitoring the carriages

01:27:57  <drac_boy> flygon but anyway ... the main reason I bought this up now is because heh well I'm just curious .. were there much of any third rail running in australia?

01:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the upper window would need some elevated ground under it, it would probably not be advisable to have that overlap with the drivers cab

01:29:17  <Flygon> drac_boy: Virtually non-existant

01:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so a window on the cab side would have no purpose

01:29:26  <Flygon> 600v would've been too low for the heavy rail lines anyway

01:29:37  <Flygon> So we jumped right to 1500vDC in the 1910s and used overhead

01:31:06  <drac_boy> flygon heh I had to ask anyway

01:31:45  <Flygon> And I'd bet the only reason the Trams used 600v was due to that being the only thing available for the same period

01:32:04  <Flygon> As in

01:32:06  <Flygon> Same period being...

01:32:09  <Flygon> 1890s for the Trams

01:32:14  <Flygon> My language skills are subpar

01:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> 600V is pretty common for trams

01:33:39  <drac_boy> at least overhead isn't hard to do especially when you got the option for Sommerfeldt if you don't want make it yourself http://www.sommerfeldt.de/index.html

01:33:53  <Flygon> "Pretty common". Dude, it's THE Tram voltage :D

01:33:56  <drac_boy> (just my own random not)

01:33:59  <drac_boy> note*

01:34:48  <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for

01:35:05  <Flygon> iirc, Melbourne's Trams probably use AC motors

01:35:09  <Flygon> As in, the modern ones

01:35:13  <Flygon> Do NOT quote me on this though

01:36:12  <drac_boy> btw interesting little tidbit...the pre-overhead third rail electrification used for the Grand Central Terminal (or was it a different station name?) was also at like 500-700V too as this was direct feed to the resistor taps for the motors

01:36:53  * Flygon nod

01:37:08  <Flygon> I do think the 'electrics only' rule is a tad silly

01:37:16  <drac_boy> so yeah some of the small locomotives that came out in the middle between 3rd rail still being active and overhead elsewhere being built out actually had a dual lowdc+11Kac supply

01:37:47  <Flygon> Hell, even the City Loop in Melbourne is practically designed to handle Diesels. Despite being designed mainly just for EMUs

01:37:56  <drac_boy> flygon well you have to think of what it was like back then .. combustion powered was a very small niche so it was mainly steam or the then-expanding electrics

01:38:18  <Flygon> drac: Doesn't mean the legislation imposing this isn't outdated now

01:38:26  <Flygon> With proper ventalation, Diesel really isn't a problem

01:38:35  <Flygon> Granted, this is also a partial problem with the City Loop

01:39:21  <drac_boy> even the cleveland station (even if the track layouts don't seem to suggest it) was usually with steam being electric-hauled out of the station ... the electrification only finally died rapidly when large number of trains became emd hauled (hint: diesels)

01:39:23  <Flygon> (the ventalation systems required are a tad expensive to run, so, they prefer advance warning. This doesn't mean that the random DMUs/Loco pax. trains routed through there immediately kill everyone, just that they prefer not to do that xP)

01:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for <-- i don't think modern trams have DC engines in them. usually it's transformed to 3-phase onboard

01:39:59  <Flygon> (and, yes, we have accidentally routed Diesel trains through our underground system. Metrol appear to smoke crack as part of their diet or something)

01:40:14  <Flygon> (thank goodness a freighter hasn't been routed, yet)

01:41:41  <drac_boy> flygon mind you for a short time (this was mentioned in the station story I read before anyway) a lot of the diesels were rerouted to other works so steam had to fill in the gaps [and the electrics were more often absent as well] and not surprisingly the railroad became embarrased when the smoke regulators caught onto this

01:42:10  <Flygon> Awkward

01:42:53  <Flygon> (Steam locos were used to shunt randomly here throughout into the 70s, but... obviously, almost our entire metropolis network is above ground

01:42:59  <drac_boy> I imagine .. just for you to know the station had a large uphill curved viaduct to deal with on the south side .. so thats why the electric bankers existed till diesels ousted them

01:43:21  <Flygon> (I'm not sure if any Steam locos have actually run live through the City Loop. Don't think the ventalation system is designed for it)

01:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i once read a story on how a steam engine was used during construction of the Munich S-Bahn line under the city

01:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because no other engine was available, apparently

01:45:56  <drac_boy> flygon the funny thing is that a lot of the photos for electric-hauled trains out of CUT would more than often show a steady cloud of semi-white smoke coming out from all 6-8 drive axles .. I could be wrong but I suspect they were hitting the throttle hard with sander wide open

01:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (this was prior to the munich olympic games, so in the 1970s, when steam was already on its way out, so this was like a museum engine that happened to be nearby)

01:46:18  <drac_boy> just haven't noticed photos like that at any of the other electrified stations in northwest usa (or at least per PRR/NH)

01:46:57  <Flygon> drac_boy: I was assuming they had a boiler used for the braking and heating systems

01:47:14  <Flygon> Eddi: That'd randomly happen with VR here

01:47:33  <Flygon> And the reason you see the (then) 100 year old EMUs running about in the 1980s photographed

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01:48:13  <drac_boy> flygon well..the boiler was a bit rare and even then it usually was of a donkey style boiler with the smoke stack fitted to the roof

01:48:20  <Flygon> Steam locos would randomly haul pax. too. Helped that most were either as or more powerful than their replacement Diesels @_@

01:48:28  <drac_boy> only the GG1 were knowingly ordered with steam heating by design

01:48:52  <drac_boy> (although they went through two generations..the early steam-like boiler and the later electric-heated-water "diesel era" boiler)

01:49:24  <Flygon> (the R-class locos, when recommissioned by a private railway (West Coast Railways) in the 1990s and 00s would actually outperform the Diesels they ran. Despite being 40-50 years old at the time. They usually ran in MU operation with a Diesel, though)

01:49:59  <Flygon> Hell, V/Line nowadays are practically running museum piece Diesels. A66 is still running, despite being about over 65 years old now.

01:50:03  <drac_boy> btw heres one of these few locomotives that were common around the CUT areas till diesels killed them http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1299/cut218.jpg

01:50:26  <drac_boy> and the long platforms was a rather normal thing back then re fitting more traction axles without having to make the body longer to match

01:50:35  <Flygon> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5L3g-fOfYds/maxresdefault.jpg It runs on sheer absurdity

01:50:42  <drac_boy> (plus a small degree of road crossing protection as well although I dunno about that)

01:50:59  <Flygon> (sadly, the three other A's V/Line still 'have' are permanantly shut down. Mainly to provide spare parts for A66)

01:51:31  <Flygon> drac, that's one of the weirdest looking electric locos I've seen

01:52:21  <drac_boy> flygon well what else do you expect from usa during the 1910-1940's period? :)

01:52:32  <Flygon> Streamliners everywhere? xP

01:52:48  <Flygon> Then again, VR of the same period made some pretty clunky electric locos too

01:52:56  <drac_boy> btw New Haven also was one of the only very few rare places in usa that you could actually find a double-cab carbody unit (NH's was electric but florida's was diesel-electric)

01:53:23  <drac_boy> otherwise (as you probably knew) all carbody diesels elsewhere in usa were of the single cab variety (aside to the booster units themself)

01:53:27  <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/E1101steeplecab.jpg http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/e/e1102slv.jpg

01:53:30  <drac_boy> one sec...

01:53:33  <Flygon> They're both mechanically the same, note

01:53:57  <drac_boy> http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0105/nh364.jpg heres the NH electric one

01:54:24  <Flygon> (they ran off the same electrical equipment as the Red Rattlers, just.... in locomotive form)

01:54:34  <Flygon> (even the bogies are the same EMU ones)

01:54:43  <Flygon> drac_boy: 404

01:55:28  <Flygon> "The exposure of the driver to this electrical equipment led to them being nicknamed "electric chairs" among drivers.". VR drivers must've been enthusiastic for their locos :U

01:55:30  <drac_boy> hmm one sec

01:56:09  <drac_boy> heres the slight newer version instead https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5069/5675549229_a0df90e6a5_b.jpg

01:56:23  <drac_boy> don't mind THAT paintjob .. it was one that didn't live for a long time anyhow

01:56:35  <Flygon> Interesting design

01:56:55  <Flygon> Somehow thought the NH on the hood was Kanji for a second there

01:56:56  <drac_boy> I'm not sure how much the dual cab configuration got used tbh .. someone would have to check an usa book that talked about them I guess

01:57:14  <Flygon> VR used Dual-cab where possible on the urban network

01:57:37  <Flygon> They didn't want to mess around with turning locomotives around

01:57:57  <Flygon> A lot of old video of VR's operations tends to show tank locos running in reverse hauling a set

01:58:02  <Flygon> They're sprightly little buggers too

01:58:49  <drac_boy> well C&NW simply used push-pull mode instead ... although early on sometimes the mushup could be a bit funny (nothing like a light freight locomotive hauling an E8 which is then hauling three bilevel coaches ... and theres nowwhere to turn this around either)

01:59:14  <drac_boy> flygon .. lol you mentioning tank reminds me of a crazy canadian story I read before (probably still have the magazine too) ....

02:00:15  <drac_boy> the CN commuter (when VIA didn't think of existing yet ofc) train .. well .. lets say that some of them had to turn around in montreal ... normal orders calls for the train to stop on track A then the locomotive run around via B while the coaches are being loaded ...

02:01:14  <drac_boy> but soon enough someone seem to had figured out to simply slow down the train a bit then run the locomotive directly onto B while the coaches themself drift into platform still staying on A .. then the locomotive back out to couple on (and even with the railroad police watching too, apparently noone cared!)

02:01:30  <drac_boy> this probably saved a lot of time (and only having to throw one turnout alone)

02:01:35  <Flygon> xP

02:01:43  <Flygon> Just remembered a recent story from here...

02:01:45  <Flygon> Basically

02:02:00  <Flygon> A66 hauling a set accidentally got routed into Souther Cross Platform 1...

02:02:07  <Flygon> Which's the main INTERSTATE platform

02:02:17  <Flygon> And has zero runaround facilities for locomotives...

02:02:30  <Flygon> ...and it got routed into the platform at the same time the XPT was due to go into it

02:02:44  <Flygon> And there was no other spare DG/SG platforms for the XPT to go into

02:03:23  <Flygon> Combine this with V/Line having no shunters nearby (because they aren't just about to reverse into the businest bit of track in Australia)

02:03:41  <drac_boy> so where did the xpt really stop at? :)

02:03:51  <Flygon> And the fact that the only other thing nearby wouldn't have been able to couple to it if it wanted to to pull it out (the XPT)

02:03:58  <Flygon> Well... the XPT had to wait an hour

02:04:51  <drac_boy> either way this is one of the things that used to push/haul the commuter trains on CN lines a long time ago https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5492/14438163030_0b64b80f52_b.jpg and yep I know it almost could seem like someone rammed a short 2-axle tender into the cab ... as it seem "big" for a tank bunker :)

02:05:03  <Flygon> V/Line had to quickly run a Y-Class locomotive out (quickly being a relative term... they max out at 65km/h. And they had to get spare paths to drive through. And this is in the dead middle of peak hour)

02:05:05  <Flygon> In the ent

02:05:06  <Flygon> end*

02:05:33  <Flygon> V/Line were furious. Metrol were furious. Centrol were furious. Metro were furious. Trains for New South Wales were furious.

02:05:34  <drac_boy> heh well "quick" has different definitions to different people you ask :P

02:05:47  <Flygon> All because one single train accidentally got routed to the wrong regional platform

02:05:54  <Flygon> (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Y129_VLine.jpg These're the Y-Class btw)

02:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so the other train was too long to fit both trains on the platform?

02:06:09  <Flygon> Eddi: Wrong gauge

02:06:23  <Flygon> Victoria uses 1600mm, New South Wales uses 1435mm

02:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that matter?

02:06:48  <Flygon> And Southern Cross has two Dual-Gauge platforms. The other dual-gauge platform was occupied.

02:06:57  <drac_boy> eddi...dual-gauge does not always cover an entire station for cost reasons as I recall

02:08:32  <Flygon> Not just cost reasons

02:08:35  <drac_boy> even then in europe (I know this is unrelated) there used to be some stations that for example if there was 3 separate platform tracks .. first one would only have 1500vdc, third one only had 11000vac, and the middle one had special signals re being switchable-voltage one (probably treated as a nonstop routing too)

02:08:38  <Flygon> It makes designing points a pita

02:08:42  <Flygon> And imposes speed limits for the DG half

02:08:56  <Flygon> Er, for the BG half

02:09:08  <Flygon> But, yeah

02:09:23  <Flygon> Crap like this is why Victorians want the entire state to be SGized already

02:09:53  <drac_boy> flygon heh about points .. I know theres one station that had two tracks but in an interesting design only one was dualgauge so it could sometimes make for funny looking operation where eg train leaves platform 2 .. cross over to track 1 for only one hundred meters .. then cross back to track 2 to get to the immediate mainline just so it can stay on its own gauge

02:10:05  <Flygon> An entire portion of the busiest regional railway station in the country shouldn't be disabled because someone accidentally pressed the wrong button

02:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i know that Brenner station had (or still has) non-switchable voltage up to the middle of the platform. so the engine has to turn off power on the way into the station, run powerless to the end, and be pulled out by shunters

02:10:39  <Flygon> (I note btw, that the only reason V/Line would've sent a Y instead of an N is due to all their Ns being busy with peak hour duties)

02:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Brenner being the border station between austria and italy

02:11:04  <Flygon> (the Ys are only spare surplus in peak due to being so pathetically weak in the modern context)

02:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the highest point of the mountainous route

02:12:12  <drac_boy> eddi .. heh well there was a switzerland (I believe it was the standard gauge side) train depot that a certain small fleet of emu's used .. well now the problem is it was wrong voltage .. but in a twist of fate most of the approaching track is downhill sloped .. so the emu in question simply would coast into the depot .. then after done one of the depot shunter (looks bit like the Kof II but not exactly one) would push it back uphill out of the way

02:12:50  <drac_boy> flygon .. were the Y the ones that always never could get much of any trains up to any kind of speeds? or thats what I kinda recall from our chats before

02:14:26  <Flygon> The Ys were designed for low use branchlines

02:14:39  <Flygon> Cheap to run, and the branchlines rarely had speed limits over 65km/h

02:14:54  <Flygon> As soon as they built up a big fleet of Ys the branchlines began shutting down

02:15:21  <Flygon> So VR were suddenly left with a lot of 640hp locos that couldn't break over 65km/h

02:15:36  <drac_boy> aha .. yeah I think I can see the resemblence .. there were some usa trains that were happy working slow but as soon as you tried kick them (re speed) they got horrible about it

02:15:39  <Flygon> They tried to repurpose them for mainline duties but... that ended badly. Passengers despised them

02:15:47  <Flygon> (they were built in the 60s-70s)

02:16:19  <Flygon> So, they all got cascaded down to freight as additional horsepower. Which they actually did a decent job as

02:16:40  <drac_boy> flygon oh btw it may sound weird but for a while on a particular older commuter railroad they sometimes only had one EMD E unit for a train and this was just about enough to run headend power but left little for traction purpose so they usually would just run one of their freight locomotive for traction .. now the thing is these were geared for only like 60-70kph maximum...

02:16:48  <Flygon> And at least one got regeared for 90km/h as a commissioners loco (that is... one that's driven by the railway commissioner to dawdle about the network. No need to haul anything)

02:17:15  <drac_boy> but it at least helped that even if they were slow .. the station lengths were very close together and these slow thing could really get up to full speed quite fast .. so the normal schedule wasn't too hard to follow

02:17:23  * Flygon nod

02:17:58  <Flygon> (the Ys that are still in existances are just used for shunting. They're too slow and weak to be useful for freight)

02:18:03  <drac_boy> probably helped that there was no food service .. could you imagine trying to not spill your drinks every time the train threatened to take off like a kangaroo :)

02:18:07  <Flygon> (and yet the Ts still keep going)

02:18:14  <Flygon> Cup holders xP

02:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard of food service on commuter trains

02:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a thing that happens in america?

02:19:36  <Flygon> (http://www.australiansteam.com/vic/y112.jpg The oldest serving locomotive in Victoria is Y112... different class, just the same letter. VR liked to reuse class letters xP)

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02:21:49  <drac_boy> eddi well some lines would have basic coldbar service .. this usually died out during the ever-ongoing price cuts in 1960-1970's tho

02:22:08  <drac_boy> although the "amfleet" named amtrak trains did have a bit of unusual exception

02:22:16  <Flygon> (https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5347/9357611218_30fea920bd_b.jpg This'd be the weakest VR locomotive I could possibly find (that isn't from the 1850s xP)

02:22:28  <Flygon> 150hp, 20km/h max. Diesel-Hydralic Shunter

02:22:56  <drac_boy> actually I kinda like that sort of thing .. especially for to move one wagon around cheaply with just a single man needed :)

02:23:06  <drac_boy> and btw sorry about this but I kinda need to go for now..maybe talk more another time :-s

02:23:11  <Flygon> Currently used as a Steamrail Victoria shunter

02:23:12  <Flygon> Have fun!

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02:24:09  <Flygon> https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamrail/6856245098/in/album-72157629268389204/ Kind of odd seeing Steamrail Victoria's pair of these hauling stuff around

02:24:21  <Flygon> Even FREAKIER to realize the steam locomotive it's hauling is about the same age as it

02:24:40  <Flygon> There's a reason the R-class are such good steam locos. They're the last of their kind x.x

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02:25:52  <Flygon> Oh, I was wrong

02:25:57  <Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/VR_RT20.JPG THESE are the weakest machines VR ran...

02:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in our local branch of the DB Museum, they have a battery powered shunter

02:28:12  <Flygon> Battery powered shunter?

02:28:13  <Flygon> Yowee O_o

02:28:33  <Flygon> Do they just swap the batteries over at a specific point and charge the batteries constantly on cycle?

02:28:41  <Flygon> Or do they plug the loco itself in?

02:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they probably plug it in

02:29:24  <Flygon> Gotcha

02:29:36  <Flygon> I do reckon battery is actually extremely suitable for EMU use...

02:29:38  <Flygon> The question is

02:29:51  <Flygon> Would the companies be willing to convert stations into battery exchange points?

02:30:05  <Flygon> Say, you're going from Melbourne to Echuca... good 250-300km long trip

02:30:31  <Flygon> For two of the stops, the EMU parks, and gets it's batteries swapped over automatically by hardware under the railway station platform

02:30:35  <Flygon> So it never runs out of charge

02:30:43  <Flygon> Akin to a steam locomotive being given more water...

02:30:52  <Flygon> And such a process wouldn't be very slow, either. It'd be quick

02:30:57  <Flygon> Why has nobody designed this?

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02:31:21  <Flygon> It'd be cheaper than electrifying, while offering most of the benefits...

02:34:43  <Eddi|zuHause> germany had some battery powered railcars operating branch lines

02:35:16  <sim-al2> Japan has a battery EMU with overhead wire charging

02:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i wondered a while back why that isn't more common

02:35:58  <sim-al2> Cost I suppose, a diesel car is pretty flexible

02:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of electric/diesel hybrids, do electric/battery hybrids

02:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> most lines nowadays are under wire at least on one end

02:37:02  <sim-al2> I assume the train can run on overhead normally, but the station segment on the line is only the length of the platform

02:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, just schedule an hour of waiting time after each trip to recharge

02:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or so.

02:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't quite know why battery service was discontinued (besides of age of vehicles)

02:40:07  <sim-al2> I bet flexiblilty would be a factor, you could fuel up a DMU and send it somewhere else as a (slowish) express train

02:41:08  <sim-al2> This is the Japanese unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV-E301_series

02:42:46  <sim-al2> 25 km battery run

02:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the german railcars had longer range, i think

02:44:23  <sim-al2> I don't know what the actual range is, one article implied at least 50km

02:44:47  <sim-al2> Also this one has air conditioning and the other nice things

02:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> this is a very old one: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittfeld-Akkumulatortriebwagen

02:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and this a more modern one https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_ETA_150

02:46:53  <sim-al2> The nose is almost like a Crocidile locomotive, but then it's compartments behind it

02:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it says range 300km on that last one

02:47:16  <sim-al2> At slow speed maybe

02:47:56  <sim-al2> Pretty long life though

02:48:19  <Flygon> According to some friends in another channel

02:48:26  <Flygon> Main thing preventing hotswapping batteries is mechanical wear

02:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> of the electrical contacts, probably

02:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> batteries have the problem of being really heavy

02:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> for very little energy stored

02:49:56  <sim-al2> Hanging an engine is not that light either :)

02:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you still need an engine :p

02:50:17  <sim-al2> Fuel though, is damn good on energy density

02:50:30  <sim-al2> A little electric motor doesn't have to be heavy anymore

02:51:54  <Flygon> Friends also point out that Aussie environment means strong aircons...

02:52:00  <Flygon> You'd need backup Diesel for hot days

02:52:11  <sim-al2> I guess the question is whether battery maintanence or engine mainanence costs more. The way I see it, diesel engines will only get more and more expensive...

02:52:42  <sim-al2> I suppose it can be done, the Aussie DMUs already have aux engines anyway

02:52:52  <sim-al2> For some reason...

02:53:49  <Flygon> aux engines?

02:53:54  <Flygon> I don't know about New South Wales, but

02:54:11  <Flygon> The VLocity series in Victoria has two Diesel engines per carriages

02:54:22  <Flygon> Only one at a time can actually power the hydralic transmission

02:54:35  <sim-al2> NSW Hunters: An auxiliary 150 kW Cummins 6ISBe-G1 diesel engine drives a Newage Stamford UCI274H alternator to supply power for the air conditioning and lighting.

02:54:58  <Flygon> iirc, there's also an electric motor per carriage too. But I forgot if that's a silly rumor, or proof that the VLos are powered by raw overkill

02:55:01  <Flygon> Ahhhh

02:55:12  <Flygon> NSW Hunters are in the same family as the VLocities! They're siblings :3

02:55:27  <Flygon> The parent being the Xplorer/Endeavor series

02:55:39  <sim-al2> I don't see what an electric motor would do unless they have battery jog

02:55:53  <Flygon> Yes, I'm serious about there being railway geneology

02:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> extra power for train heating/electricity is not that uncommon i believe

02:56:00  <sim-al2> Yeah, all they have the same QSK19 and aux engine

02:56:08  <Flygon> sim: They're reportedly battery powered

02:56:14  <sim-al2> In 'Merica, we steal it from the locomotive

02:56:15  <Flygon> But... again, uncomfirmed

02:56:35  <Flygon> I don't have the detailed technical specs on me, and my locomotive book both only does Aussie locomotives

02:56:43  <Flygon> And it only covers the 1850s to 1990s

02:56:46  <sim-al2> Some US locomotives were built with the ability to power a motor from the batteries for shop moves

02:57:28  <sim-al2> Also quite a few units with hydraulic transmissions (the turbine powered things) had an electric motor so they could run into Grand Central Terminal on 3rd rail

02:58:09  <Flygon> Oh, I've been grossly misinformed and confused

02:58:15  <Flygon> The VLos do still have just one motor per carriage

02:58:21  <Flygon> Just big 750hp ones

02:58:28  <sim-al2> Yeah, I was going to ask where they shoved another :)

02:58:31  <Flygon> Where the hell did I get told they had two motors per carriage...

02:58:42  <sim-al2> Lots of DMUs do, just not hugenormous ones

02:58:44  <Flygon> Still, they're grossly overkill

02:58:56  <Flygon> They're actually capable of out-accelerating a fair bit of the electric fleet here

02:59:27  <sim-al2> Nah, if you want to get up to 160km/h with a carriage that meets safety and comfort standards, that's a good thing to have

02:59:51  <sim-al2> I wonder how much fuel they use though, compared to the locomotive trains

03:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the hugenotts have engines now?

03:00:39  <Flygon> sim: They suck more fuel than anyone in the industry wants to admit

03:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> man, these 18th century french protestant refugees are ressourceful :p

03:00:45  <Flygon> They were designed as regional HSTs

03:00:56  <Flygon> But they're currently being used as 160km/h interurbans instead

03:01:10  <sim-al2> Well they wanted a diesel train with electric performance...

03:01:19  <Flygon> Reportedly, in testing, the VLo units hit 210-225km/h for stress testing... so

03:01:26  <sim-al2> Dammmmmnnnnnn

03:01:36  <Flygon> I would personally consider them HSTs. The transmission is expicitly designed for 200km/h

03:01:43  <Flygon> But the railway related beaurocracy here is bloody nuts

03:02:10  <Flygon> 160 was chosen as to not require in-cab signalling. Any faster was deemed unsafe because they were worried drivers wouldn't see the signals

03:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> trains have to be able to run comfortably at 110% of max speed

03:02:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so if they're designed for 200, they must be able to test run at 220

03:02:44  <Flygon> And by 160 I mean, they're still allowed 10% overspeed. A late VLo running 177km/h is not uncommon. But the computer will emergency brake if it's going ay faster.

03:02:51  <sim-al2> That's a mechanical thing though, the limits choose allow a safery margin

03:02:51  <Flygon> And, Eddi has a point

03:03:12  <Flygon> Given how old the XPT is... and that the XPT is being retired and replaced

03:03:21  <sim-al2> Amtrak specs all the equipment at 135 mph for extra margin

03:03:54  <sim-al2> Wow 177? That's a big margin

03:03:55  <Flygon> My ideal XPT replacement would just be a souped up VLocity built for 220km/h... you'd need to fix up a few lines, allow for in-cab signalling, and get such a concept past the beaurocracy

03:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 135*1.6

03:04:17  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 216

03:04:31  <Flygon> But even if the DMU wouldn't be allowed to hit it's real top speed, it's a reasonable futureproofing to design for. And given it'd be parts (and presumably couplable) to the VLocity, Hunter, and Xplorer series anyway...

03:04:37  <Flygon> But, I'm armcharing the hell out of this

03:05:43  <Flygon> In the end, I'd just use the VLocity as a derivative for sheer convenience

03:06:07  <sim-al2> Trust me, if you don't want them I would take them

03:06:51  <Flygon> Bonus points that the VLo has another sibling class running about in Western Australia explicitly designed for 200km/h (the current WA Prospector DMU units). The only real differences between both sets is the internal seating arrangements, catering, and the computers having different auto-emergency brake speeds

03:07:21  <sim-al2> Sounds like you guys have the basis for the One True DMU

03:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you know that in civilized countries, trains run at scheduled 300km/h...

03:08:36  <sim-al2> They also didn't spend the money to have a complete highway network instead

03:08:45  <Flygon> Eddi: Believe me, most of the population here DOES want an interstate HST

03:08:48  <Flygon> An electric one

03:09:04  <Flygon> But... we've instead become ridiculously good at building Diesel HSTs in a country that doesn't even have HST infrastructure

03:09:24  <Flygon> Well, I mean... we have the infrastructure. The beaurocrats just pretend we don't. xP

03:10:06  <Wolf01> 'night

03:10:07  <sim-al2> That would great here, the one HST project under way right now is in Florida

03:10:10  <sim-al2> night

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03:10:51  <Flygon> Night Wo- dammit

03:11:03  <Flygon> sim: What about the California HST?

03:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: unrelated, but what happened to the plan to destry half the barrier reef to expand coal mining?

03:11:30  <sim-al2> Ok perhaps, but there's still room for a sneak attack to kill it

03:11:49  <Flygon> (the real problem is... the two most politically popular HST lines are also the two hardest to build. Because you'd be dealing with building through the middle of a mountain range for both of them)

03:11:57  <Flygon> Eddi: I wish I knew

03:12:03  <Flygon> sim: True =/

03:12:04  <sim-al2> Assuming that California doesn't start cutting everything to stay afloat

03:12:45  <Flygon> The EASIEST HST line to build is Melbourne-Adelaide. The Melbourne-Ballarat portion has already been RFRified (meaning, HSR but we limit the speed to 160km/h because lol)

03:12:49  <sim-al2> There's some speed upgrade programs, but those are improvements to existing services

03:12:51  <Flygon> But nobody likes Adelaide

03:13:08  <Flygon> And there's railway gauge problems to boot...

03:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: so, the country is 95% flat desert, and they want to build the HSTs exactly at the 5% mountains?

03:13:14  <sim-al2> Lol, South Australia, the state no one knows about

03:13:28  <Flygon> Eddi: Our two biggest metropolises are integrated into the mountains

03:13:29  <Flygon> In fact

03:13:34  <sim-al2> 90% of the population is sane and lives on the coast

03:13:41  <Flygon> Sydney's actually hit a serious urban growth barrier problem because of their mountains

03:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: isn't like singapore the size of half of sydney, while having more population than all of australia combined?

03:14:34  <Flygon> But... yeah. Melbourne-Adelaide is easy. Most of the existing alignment is straight as hell. Just whack in an extra pair of tracks adjacent... the only real problems after that

03:14:45  <sim-al2> This is the Florida HST locomotive: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3860/15167931610_3493ddf87c_b.jpg

03:16:35  <Flygon> Are the Bacchus Marsh horseshoe curve (but the town'd probably be bypassed anyay), Adelaide Hills (which's... a mountain range. An incredibly frustrating one), gauge differences (which can be eliminated sorta by converting the Ballarat line to SG anyway (thus giving Ballan a HST stop instead), giving Ballarat a dedicated SG metro service, and extending the BG urban line to Bacchus Marsh), and the fact that despite it being t

03:16:36  <Flygon> he single easiest HST line to build, there'd be no real political goodwill for it because most of the seats it goes through are safe seats.

03:16:45  <sim-al2> I think, I just found something that shows a different design, but that model is from Siemens and the other one isn't

03:17:17  <Flygon> And from a federal perspective, only benefits primarially Victorian townships (which can be seen as disproportionately benefiting Victoria)... because any alignment you take barely has any towns in South Australia bar Adelaide

03:17:27  <Flygon> Because the entire population of South Australia lives in Adelaide...

03:17:40  <sim-al2> Heh

03:17:45  <Flygon> sim: Locomotive hauled?

03:17:53  <sim-al2> Yes, HST style

03:18:21  <sim-al2> One at each end

03:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "safe seats" is the single biggest issue with majority voting systems...

03:18:54  <sim-al2> Something something US politics

03:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be biased, but i really like the german hybrid voting system

03:19:36  <sim-al2> wow 79 confirmed orders now from various agencies

03:19:42  <sim-al2> http://www.mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000810&lang=en&id=8223&action=shownews

03:20:16  <Flygon> sim: I admit I'm not a huge fan of locomotive HSTs

03:20:33  <Flygon> But knowing how utterly, and please excuse my language here, fucked federal US railway regulation is

03:20:36  <Flygon> There's no avoiding it

03:20:48  <sim-al2> They will also serve commuter and long haul trains

03:20:59  * Flygon nod

03:21:20  <sim-al2> It was a low risk design for Siemens and now it will pay off well, especially if Amtrak jumps in

03:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> for those that don't know, the german system works that everybody has two votes: the first one elects a local candidate by simple majority rule, which comprise half the parlament, and the other half of the seats are filled up so it matches the proportional second vote

03:22:25  <Flygon> Eddi: Here, it's the usual "Upper" and "Lower" house system with Preferential voting

03:22:36  <sim-al2> The FRA regulations are outdate yes but most European units will not survive anything more than a side-swipe with 130 tonne freight cars

03:22:58  <Flygon> But despite our voting system, we've had an unusually 'stable' political seats thingy

03:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so the parliament in the end looks like a proportional one, but it keeps some local representation typial for majority voting

03:23:15  <Flygon> sim: I aint denying that. That's why you get Australians to design crashworthy D/EMUs xP

03:23:27  <Flygon> The VLocities here are absurdly crash resistant

03:23:43  <Flygon> You can't say any other train is literally bulletproof (the front ends are made of kevlar!)

03:24:38  <Flygon> This is in part due to being designed to hit level crossings at 160km/h

03:25:09  <Flygon> Unfortunately, the most serious accident involving a VLocity involved one hitting a truck carrying cube stone slabs of rock

03:25:20  <Flygon> Which's not only the most unlikely thing a VLo could hit at speed

03:25:25  <Flygon> But the worst possible thing it could hit

03:25:49  <Flygon> Passengers weren't too hurt, but everyone in the cab was moosh. The same result would've occoured with a locomotive train tbh.

03:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the benefit of a bulletproof train over a bullet train?

03:26:33  <Flygon> Eddi: It's boganproof

03:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, meanwhile, german DMUs get completely smashed by hitting a car

03:28:59  <Flygon> Mm x:

03:29:16  <Flygon> http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/04/28/svTRAIN_wideweb__470x299,0.jpg

03:29:26  <Flygon> It hit the truck around 115-130km/h, it was emergency braking

03:29:33  <Flygon> But...

03:29:54  <Flygon> Apart from the cab becoming utterly pancaked and the DMU derailed, the entire passenger compartment was untouched

03:30:09  <Flygon> Hell, it was still running when that photo was taken...

03:34:11  <sim-al2> Yeah, I think we need to borrow some Aussies, but we have a strong case of "not invented here", see the PTC specs, etc

03:34:13  <Flygon> I imagine if our rail regulations were less stringent, they would've decoupled the 'functioning' railcar, and simply run it to the workshops for repairs

03:34:22  * Flygon nod

03:34:42  <Flygon> Australians mostly build themselves due to paranioa...

03:34:47  <Flygon> Whenever we get overseas equipment

03:34:52  <Flygon> It tends to fail pretty hard

03:35:06  <sim-al2> Seriously, as far as I can tell the ETMS/ETCS did everything the FRA wanted, and already had the bugs worked out

03:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried turning it upside down after arrival? :p

03:35:21  <Flygon> Eurotrams crap themselves in Melbourne due to either the heat or the network being built 'worse' than a European city

03:35:29  <Flygon> (eg. tight curve lengths, overall much rougher track)

03:35:40  <Flygon> (we recently had a C2-class Tram have it's wheel come flying off at speed!!!!)

03:35:59  <Flygon> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-20/yarra-trams-pulls-c-class-fleet-for-inspection-after-derailment/6870778 Oh, it was a standard C clas

03:36:07  <Flygon> Eddi: None have rolled yet, thankfully

03:37:00  <Flygon> Hell... before privatization

03:37:05  <Flygon> We exported our Trams to Asia

03:37:12  <Flygon> And Asians are picky as fuck buggers

03:37:27  <Flygon> And it looks like the new E-classes might get exported to Euripe

03:37:29  <Flygon> Europe*

03:38:07  <Flygon> (ultimately, the Eurotrams faced the same problems the Pendos did in Finland. Our network and climate is just way too different for them to work correctly)

03:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well, germans managed to build air conditioning into their trains that fail when temperatures get above 40°C

03:39:29  <Flygon> We're having the same problem with heavy rail equipment too...

03:39:48  <Flygon> Siemens are practically banned permanantly from Victoria after the saga with the Siemens Nexas EMUs

03:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> which happens about 3 times per year

03:40:01  <Flygon> And the X'trapolises are already rusting away despite being less than 10 years old

03:40:13  <sim-al2> Aren't they stainless steel?

03:40:16  <Flygon> (Siemens (duh) and Alstom respectively)

03:40:24  <Flygon> sim: Yes.

03:40:31  <Flygon> The X'trapolises are so bad

03:40:40  <Flygon> They're literally using stainless steel that can rust.

03:40:53  <Flygon> My friend's theory is that they're using a pretty bad alloy

03:40:58  <sim-al2> Getting a stainless steel body that can rust is ... impressive

03:41:19  * Flygon laughs

03:41:27  <sim-al2> Consider the US railcars from the 1940's and 50's still rolling around

03:41:27  <Flygon> Sadly, it's not the first time it happened

03:41:32  <Flygon> The Hitachi trains hit the same problem

03:41:43  <Flygon> But the problems didn't manifest as quickly/severely

03:41:55  <Flygon> (nonetheless, the buildiers of the Hitachi got booted in favor of Comeng)

03:42:23  <Flygon> (note, Hitachi didn't build the trains, they only supplied the motors and transmission iirc. Those parts were topnotch and never failed)

03:42:38  <Flygon> (so... Victoria has no beef with Hitachi themself. xP)

03:42:56  <sim-al2> Stainless steel can corrode in salty and wet conditions, but still there are cars 60+ years old running fine

03:43:07  <Flygon> Melbourne's very wet.

03:43:18  <Flygon> We're the Seattle of Australia

03:44:05  <sim-al2> Certainly, Amtrak has always bought stainless steel because the regular cars were rusting out after 20-30 years

03:44:21  <Flygon> (I do note, the A-class locomotives are rusting too... but the problems clearly not too bad if V/Line are running around 65 year old A66 without problem)

03:44:42  <sim-al2> Hmm, I've always liked the A's and B's

03:44:42  <Flygon> (albiet, sparingly. They want to use it only in case of N-class shortages)

03:45:00  <Flygon> The Bs and S's still run about

03:45:02  <sim-al2> If only they could have shoved a HEP motor in there

03:45:19  <Flygon> Ooh, yeah

03:45:25  <Flygon> I forgot they lack HEP...

03:45:39  <Flygon> It's too late to retrofit it now

03:45:48  <Flygon> The poor things need to be in a museum

03:45:50  <sim-al2> Yeah, that's really amazing, the US equivalents lived on into the 90's in commuter service but are pretty much gone except from the small railroads

03:46:07  *** supermop has joined #openttd

03:46:13  <Flygon> 'ey supermop

03:46:15  <Flygon> sim: *nod*

03:46:26  <sim-al2> Don't a lot of V/Line cars still have generators on them?

03:46:34  <Flygon> Yeah. It's kind of incredible to realize that the A-class is the last of it's kind (pax. bulldog nose)

03:46:47  <Flygon> V/Line cars? As in the carriages themselves?

03:47:03  <Flygon> Or a separate HEP equivilant carriage?

03:47:05  <sim-al2> Yeah, the H-sets I think had some

03:47:15  <supermop> bulldog?

03:47:17  <Flygon> If it's the latter, I think that's just for the Albury line, and A-class hauled sets

03:47:39  <Flygon> supermop: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5L3g-fOfYds/maxresdefault.jpg

03:47:56  <sim-al2> hnnggghhhh

03:48:28  <supermop> i'd love to buy a z1/2 headed to be scrapped and run it as a commuter special cafe car on the 96 rush hour

03:48:40  <supermop> bar in the evening

03:48:48  <supermop> store at north fitz depot

03:48:52  <Flygon> Issue with the Z1/2's is

03:48:54  <sim-al2> Oh sorry I was looking at the N types

03:49:02  <Flygon> Is that it's impossible to get spare parts for them

03:49:08  <Flygon> And they're literally rusting away

03:49:19  <Flygon> It'd be easier to just guy a personal E-Class Tram. I'm not kidding.

03:49:39  <sim-al2> No new types?

03:49:50  <Flygon> Unless you'd want to run the Z1/2's on a personal railway that isn't subject to Yarra Trams regulation

03:49:50  <supermop> there are a handful of private owned non working zs

03:49:57  <Flygon> sim: New types?

03:50:00  <Flygon> supermop: Aye

03:50:31  <sim-al2> I mean new carriages on order

03:50:38  <supermop> theres still 100-200 z1/2s out there mandated to be gradually scrapped/canabalized

03:50:59  <supermop> so there should be at least a short term supply of parts

03:51:27  <sim-al2> I mean the H-sets started life as EMU units

03:51:30  <Flygon> Oh

03:51:39  <supermop> z3 would be easier to keep running but don't think they are scrapping those anytime soon

03:51:42  <Flygon> No, I don't think V/Line is going to get any new carriages anymore

03:51:44  <Flygon> Only new DMUs

03:51:58  <Flygon> Actually, the Z3's are being rushed out as soon as possible

03:52:07  <Flygon> They're only being continued because, unlike the Z1/2's

03:52:15  <Flygon> They're parts compatible with the A and B's

03:52:37  <Flygon> Or - Yarra Trams doesn't want ANY High-Floor Trams

03:52:53  <sim-al2> Uhh any pages with info on the Z carriages?

03:53:11  <Flygon> sim: If it weren't for their exterior making it hard to fit a facade, I'd say the Comeng series would be a reasonable H-class replacement

03:53:16  <Flygon> But the Comeng are way more useful as EMUs

03:53:23  <Flygon> And if anything, will last another 20 years

03:53:55  <sim-al2> I suppose those could work, might have to do a lot of work to convert from 1500VDC power to (I assume) AC train supply

03:53:59  <Flygon> sim: I don't have my sources on me. These were posts on Railpage. x.x

03:54:09  <Flygon> Ehh...

03:54:18  <Flygon> The bodies of the Comeng are still perfectly cromulent

03:54:21  <Flygon> And a lot of other parts

03:54:41  <Flygon> Worst to worst, you put new motors in, other parts for AC, and bob's your uncle

03:56:20  <supermop> Zs, As, and Bs would already be illegal here

03:56:51  <Flygon> supermop: Where's 'here' again?

03:56:56  <supermop> but in semi-private use one could likely get a waiver

03:57:02  <supermop> the US generally

03:57:05  <Flygon> Gotcha

03:57:06  <supermop> under ADA

03:57:18  <Flygon> I like the B's, myself...

03:57:24  <Flygon> They're incredible beasts

03:57:37  <Flygon> I mean, if you HAD  to make them low floor

03:57:45  <Flygon> I'd say insert a low floor middle carriage

03:57:48  <sim-al2> High level platforms are a thing...

03:57:57  <supermop> chicago recently scrapped a bunch of L cars from the 80s with probably 30-40 more years left in them as they had bifold doors with center pivots

03:57:57  <Flygon> (I have worked with the disable, and know the frustration x: )

03:58:21  <Flygon> sim: The B1's were designed to have floor stairs that elevated at railway platforms

03:58:25  <supermop> the high level tram platforms are still lower than the high floor trams floors

03:58:29  <Flygon> But the feature was scrapped for the B2's

03:58:38  <Flygon> supermop: SCRAPPED??

03:58:39  <Flygon> ._.

03:58:43  <Flygon> What the hell

03:58:48  <supermop> well more dumped in the ocean

03:58:52  <supermop> than scrapped

03:58:56  <Flygon> Why didn't they sell them to other companies?

03:59:19  <Flygon> Melbourne could've made use of them, presuming affordable modification (particulary for 1500v and pantographization)

03:59:20  <sim-al2> You guys would love JR East, they plan on dumping their stuff every 15-20 years now

03:59:30  <supermop> ive had this discussion often, and basically, they would be illegal anywhere in the US or canada

03:59:42  <Flygon> And since they're American EMUs, they'd be crashworthy in Australia

03:59:54  <sim-al2> Ehh, L cars are small subway cars not great for long distances

04:00:17  <supermop> hard to find somewhere with standard gauge 600V 3rd rail thaat wants a 30 year old non hadicap accessible train

04:00:53  <supermop> basically only developing countries, but then its a bit patronizing to offload old equipment like that

04:00:57  <Flygon> sim: I was suggesting for urban use

04:01:00  <Flygon> Like...

04:01:04  <Flygon> The Sandringham line

04:01:18  <Flygon> supermop: They'd prefer having equipment over having none at all

04:01:22  <supermop> especially when it would come with an infrastructure bill so large

04:01:27  <sim-al2> Not a lot of cities have the space or money, New York does it's own thing and everyone has different system needs

04:01:36  * Flygon googles exactly what a centre pivot door is

04:01:57  <supermop> bifold doors

04:01:58  <Flygon> Oh jesus

04:02:03  <Flygon> Oh, bifold door?

04:02:04  <supermop> like on a b class

04:02:06  <supermop> but

04:02:16  <supermop> with a structural pillar in the center

04:02:22  * Flygon rubs forehead

04:02:24  <Flygon> Wow

04:02:26  <supermop> which can't be cut out

04:02:31  <Flygon> Okay, yeah. That wouldn't fly here either.

04:02:34  <Flygon> Still, in Africa...

04:02:40  <Flygon> They could still loco haul them

04:02:44  <Flygon> Or South America

04:02:48  <sim-al2> If it makes you feel better, the other 80's trains are still going to be in service for a long time

04:02:50  <Flygon> Or Asia

04:03:16  <sim-al2> Too much work for any of those when they could get mainline trains for a bout the same

04:03:20  <sim-al2> *cost

04:03:31  <Flygon> Hmm...

04:03:33  <Flygon> Alright

04:03:43  <sim-al2> See Chile and their EMUs basically being Spanish

04:03:47  <supermop> thats the thing though, most parts of asia with existing urban rail networks couldn't justify taking on a weird orphaned fleet

04:04:15  <supermop> places that could like phnom penh have no extant rail infrastructure

04:04:44  <Flygon> Hmm...

04:04:47  <Flygon> Still, in the end

04:04:49  <supermop> and if you are going to build a network from scratch, the trains themselves are insignificant

04:04:53  <Flygon> Dumping them into the ocean seems silly

04:04:59  <sim-al2> Japan's small railways tend to take the old stuff, but their own systems match the big system's design standards

04:05:09  <Flygon> Wouldn't you get more profit by scavenging the working parts, then using the rest as scrap metal?

04:05:09  <sim-al2> Artifical reef

04:05:16  <Flygon> Oh

04:05:22  <Flygon> I forgot artificial reefs are a thing

04:05:23  <sim-al2> They took the parts off and dumped the shells

04:05:30  <Flygon> Right, okay

04:05:32  <Flygon> THAT

04:05:36  <supermop> so why no sign a deal with a manufacturer for delivery and 30 years or maintenance with attractive financing

04:05:37  <Flygon> THAT makes sense.

04:06:23  <sim-al2> ^Supermop has is right, buying other people's castoffs doesn't sound as good as brand new

04:06:38  <supermop> taking on old trains that you have to repair yourself vs canada underwriting a loan for bombardier to provide new trains and service

04:06:50  <Flygon> Right, I forgot new trains tend to come with a warranty x.x

04:07:06  <Flygon> RE: Canada and Bombardier...

04:07:18  <Flygon> I am mildly surprised Canada hasn't gotten VLos manufactured there...

04:07:27  <supermop> even for a poor country or city, you find either the manufacturer or its host country making you an offer you cant refuse

04:07:48  <Flygon> Wouldn't Canada have a fair few Diesel interurban lines that could use a 160km/h train with the acceleration of a subway car? xP

04:07:48  <sim-al2> Canada's previous government didn't like that sort of thing

04:07:50  <supermop> kawasaki has a plant in new york

04:08:11  <Flygon> (I'd also find it amusing if they kept the VLocity name in Canada :B)

04:08:12  <sim-al2> Kinda of, the airport express trains have new Nippon Sharyo DMUs

04:08:26  <Flygon> Airport trains being DMUs? O_o

04:08:28  <Flygon> Only in Japan

04:08:31  <supermop> ^ home team cant win them all

04:08:37  <sim-al2> Hmmm, I'm talking Canada

04:08:44  <sim-al2> Toronto Pearson Express

04:08:58  <sim-al2> Also diesel airport train or no airport train

04:09:02  <supermop> N.S. does a ton of business in north america

04:09:20  <Flygon> Ooh, right

04:09:25  <supermop> in the US though, new york killed all of our train builders

04:09:28  <Flygon> Sorry, brainderped

04:09:29  <sim-al2> Yeah, they've gone full out here, Japan doesn't have the same growth it used to

04:09:46  <Flygon> I am very surprised Japan hasn't expanded more agressively into Australia

04:09:56  <Flygon> Then again, we have a poor history with Australia

04:10:07  <supermop> st louis car company, pullman, budd, all went under shortly after desperately grasping at a subway bid

04:10:14  <Flygon> Japan wanted to use Sydney's Double Decker EMU designs... I think they were cooperating with Comeng

04:10:28  <supermop> winning a contract that they could barely afford to meet

04:11:08  <Flygon> And then the Japanese company began having arguments with the Comeng engineers because Comeng kept saying "You can't do that! It'll make the train run worse/passenger flow worse", but Japanese half insisted that their way was better....

04:11:13  <sim-al2> St. Louis and Pullman had problems way before then, they were basically being kept alive by transit contracts since Amtrak had the old passenger cars the freight railroads offloaded onto them and no one else bought American type stock at that point

04:11:24  <Flygon> (Japanese DDs tend to have far worse passenger flow than Sydney's DDs...)

04:12:31  <sim-al2> Japan seems to have DD for mostly express service or as a complement to the longer distance suburban trains, they really need short station stops for commuter

04:12:43  <supermop> Flygon: i actually think the bombardier bilevels ubiqutous in north america unload easier than sydney

04:12:48  <Flygon> sim: *nod*

04:12:57  <Flygon> supermop: I admit I'm not entirely familiar with their design

04:13:08  <supermop> sydney trains are a bizarre choice for an urban rail system

04:13:31  <Flygon> It was built because it was cheaper than upgrading the lines

04:13:43  <supermop> similiar layout but bigger areas at platform height

04:13:43  <Flygon> Or: We designed the worlds first DDEMUs out of laziness

04:13:47  <Flygon> That's the Austraaalian waaay~

04:13:53  <sim-al2> Here's a long distance cross-Tokyo suburban type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E233-3000_tokaido_main_line.JPG

04:14:09  <Flygon> Heheh, that random DD hump

04:14:11  <supermop> smaller doors but easier to get to the vestibule internally

04:14:40  <supermop> i've ridden one of those sets

04:14:47  <supermop> green car was in the DD part

04:14:58  <supermop> was on a chuo line limited

04:16:00  <Flygon> Nice

04:16:30  <sim-al2> One of these? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/215_Zushi_to_Shinagawa_at_Shin-Kawasaki_20020713.jpg

04:17:11  <sim-al2> I can't think of what bilevels have run on the Chuo line

04:17:30  <Flygon> Note on the lead car

04:17:37  <Flygon> How the lower deck is unaccessible

04:17:41  <sim-al2> Although the rapid trains will get bilevels added to them in a few years, for 12 car sets

04:17:44  <Flygon> Guess where all the equipment is

04:17:51  <sim-al2> The lead car has the resistors there

04:17:57  <Flygon> Yeah

04:18:08  <sim-al2> Like a NS DDM

04:18:15  <supermop> first one you linked

04:18:23  <supermop> or similar

04:18:28  <supermop> circa 2004

04:18:48  <supermop> havent seen on that service since then

04:18:49  <sim-al2> Hmmm, Chuo rapid right, and not out in the boonies?

04:19:32  <supermop> it ran way out there, but i only hopped on from Tokyo to shinjuku

04:19:51  <sim-al2> On the 215, the end cars have the resistors and the field-weaking electronics there, and motors on that car and the car next to it

04:20:12  <supermop> had a green rail pass and feet were tired so grabbed that as it was the least absurd way to reserve a seat for such a short trip

04:20:27  <sim-al2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JREast-E231-1000-K21.jpg

04:21:46  <Flygon> Anywya

04:21:48  <Flygon> Anyway*

04:21:55  <Flygon> IRL stuff time. Thank you!

04:22:04  <sim-al2> bye :(

04:22:42  <supermop> japanese catenary always looks so sturdy in these photos

04:23:04  <supermop> i know its mostly the angle and lens length used but still

04:23:05  <sim-al2> It probably is, they run 1500 VDC in most city areas

04:23:46  <sim-al2> Also earthquakes, and maybe the slightly smaller (but normal proporrtion) trains

04:23:48  <supermop> looks much more engineered than most of the almost trolley wire stuff you see elsewhere

04:24:29  <sim-al2> Well it does have 3 to 4 pantographs being pulled across it, sometimes more on the older subway trains

04:25:50  <sim-al2> And the occasional locomotive on the JR lines

04:26:15  <sim-al2> Lots of compound catenary too

04:26:31  <supermop> whats odd is that so many lines have essentially custom/bespoke stock there

04:27:06  <supermop> like JR or tokyo metro will place an order designed and built for a single service

04:27:29  <sim-al2> JR East seems to have gotten the best cut of the JNR system, and they have money~~~~ to spend for perfect efficiency

04:27:53  <supermop> so you have these weird outliers like ginza and marunouchi lines that are 3rd rail

04:28:13  <sim-al2> It helps that they actually own a rolling stock factory and actually use lots of standard parts and designs

04:28:30  <supermop> you'd thenk they'd order the same trains for the two of those at least, but there are actually slight differences

04:28:44  <supermop> yeah

04:28:54  <sim-al2> Ginza predated almost everything though

04:29:15  <supermop> and a lot of the workhorse emus from a given time look pretty similar

04:29:31  <sim-al2> I think they would have to raise streets to get enough room for mainline stock

04:29:46  <supermop> but most special or rapid services get at least a custom aesthetic design

04:30:00  <supermop> they can do it there

04:30:38  <sim-al2> If you look at the express units, they tend to share traction systems and other stuff with the contemporary commuter stock

04:30:55  <supermop> they were taking down the expressway between ginza and shiodome piece by piece last time i was there

04:31:12  <sim-al2> That sounds like a mess

04:31:44  <sim-al2> For example, the new E353 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E353_series) has E233 traction equipment

04:31:46  <supermop> yeah - but in most of the world, you'd never get the special body shell or cab ends for such a small batch

04:33:01  <sim-al2> They really want to keep people interested

04:33:30  <supermop> i'm happy to see the commitment to industrial design at the institutional level

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04:34:28  <supermop> oing to go watch seinfeld reruns

04:34:43  <sim-al2> JR West is kinda interesting because they actually have to compete hard core with the other railways around Osaka

04:35:44  <sim-al2> At one point they were trying to cut lines

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06:10:53  <Flygon> Derp

06:11:31  <Flygon> sim-al2: In the end, Victoria needs three things...

06:11:39  <Flygon> 1. Mass Standard Gaugization

06:12:55  <Flygon> 2. 25kvization of the overhead, alongside extending electrification to the main interurban line terminuses (which'll place the fate of the existing VLos in an interesting position. Unless they are repurposed to 100% replace the XPTs and boost NSW's regional pax)

06:13:19  <Flygon> 3. Mass purchase of 200-220km/h EMUs to go with the above for V/Line

06:16:13  <sim-al2> $$$

06:16:28  <Flygon> That's the thing...

06:16:35  <Flygon> At least, with standardization at bare minimum

06:16:44  <Flygon> Standardization won't push back more than a few billion...

06:16:52  <Flygon> Waaay cheaper than this Metro tunnel they're pushing

06:17:07  <Flygon> And all existing rollingstock is designed for SG anyway

06:17:13  <Flygon> Even the Steam Locomotives are

06:17:34  <Flygon> Except for the remaining pre-1940s designs in active use (which boils down to the K-class)

06:18:10  <sim-al2> I'm sure the steam locomotives are not the state government's priority in line design anyway

06:18:17  <Flygon> (which's a shame, because, I'd dare say the K-Class represents the bare workhorse attitude of VR's steam locos)

06:18:19  <Flygon> Aye

06:18:42  <Flygon> And it's not too hard to preserve a few tourist lines

06:18:44  <Flygon> And, in theory

06:19:09  <Flygon> A few of these steam locos can be reengineered for SG... it's just not as easy as shifting the wheels by 165mm

06:21:35  <sim-al2> How much of the lines will be doable though? You would need to regauge all the rolling stock and the locomotives too

06:27:00  <sim-al2> I imagine changing over all the freight stock won't be cheap

06:34:45  <sim-al2> http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/morning_call/2015/11/maglev-backers-have-their-passenger-railroad.html

06:40:16  <Flygon> sim: Actually, the entire POINT would be to make freight cheaper

06:40:30  <Flygon> Interstate Railroads have a surplus of rollingstock...

06:40:36  <Flygon> It'd be very easy for them to bring it to VIC

06:40:51  <Flygon> The most difficult step would be converting the Metro lines

06:42:01  <Flygon> Oooh

06:42:04  <Flygon> Washington-Baltimore

06:42:07  <Flygon> Exciting news

06:43:06  <sim-al2> It's nice and all, but it almost certianly will hurt the prospects for fixing up the NEC tunnels in the Baltimore area

06:43:21  <sim-al2> *assuming it actually happens

06:44:38  <sim-al2> Although the fact that the Japanese government would help fund it is rather interesting

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07:27:12  <Flygon> Oh no...

07:27:21  <Flygon> sin-al2: I think A66's finally carked it :(

07:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> sounding like the end finally for A66?

07:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Friday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh is operating as a coach due to a train fault

07:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Thursday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh will be operating as a 3 carriage VLocity train today

07:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Wednesday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh will be operating at a reduced capacity

07:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Tuesday: 17:59 SCS - Bacchus Marsh service is operating at reduced capacity as 3 carriages instead of 6 carriages.

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07:41:22  <sim-al2> Flygon: Is there an Aus rail channel?

07:41:30  <Flygon> Well

07:41:54  <Flygon> It's more an offshoot of an unrelated channel, and it's largely in a different IRC network, and it's International

07:42:02  <Flygon> But it is chockers with Aussie train buffs

07:42:08  <Flygon> Dunno how much you like furries tho

07:43:12  <sim-al2> It's certainly not the only EMD to blow up at some point

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07:46:37  <Flygon> Welll....

07:46:41  <Flygon> It IS almost 70 years old

07:46:44  <Flygon> Running off spare parts

07:47:03  <Flygon> And in fact, it's kind of cobbled together from parts of a trillion locomotives by now

07:47:11  <sim-al2> They did put a new engine in the 1980's though

07:47:24  <Flygon> The only remaining thing that's truly almost 70 years old is the FRAME and shell

07:47:36  <Flygon> But, yeah. It's ancient by Diesel standards.

07:47:43  <Flygon> Even with it's mid-life refurb

07:47:47  <sim-al2> Hence it became an "A", 12 cylinder turbo 645 instead of 16 cylinder roots-blower 567

07:48:32  <sim-al2> Ehhh, tons of EMDs from the 60's and 70's around the world are still in service

07:48:44  <sim-al2> They are incredibly tough engines

07:49:02  <Flygon> Mm

07:49:38  <Flygon> A fair few B and S's (for the uninformed, they're un-renewed A-classes... or, A-classes without their mid-life refurb/upgrade) are still running around

07:49:43  <sim-al2> Also helps that the N class are basically the same locomotive

07:49:43  <Flygon> As well as the ever utterly unkillable T

07:49:56  <Flygon> Yeah. N-class parts can be scavenged too, for some parts

07:50:08  <Flygon> Either way...

07:50:12  <sim-al2> Yeah, B's are double cab, S's single with a shunting cab on the other end

07:50:16  <Flygon> The remaining A's V/Line has really need to be museumed

07:50:25  <sim-al2> Isn't there one left?

07:50:30  <Flygon> As in, the ones that're taken apart also donated to a proper heratage group

07:50:35  <Flygon> V/Line has four on the register

07:50:39  <Flygon> But only one operating

07:50:56  <Flygon> iirc, one's 'able' to be reativated, and two are literally taken apart

07:51:02  <Flygon> But this is very shaky memory

07:51:16  <Flygon> I just know that they have four, but three are incapable of running without great effort

07:52:07  <sim-al2> I suppose they can't be bothered to buy some other locomotives to use?

07:56:17  <sim-al2> Well I'm off to bed, good night

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08:15:38  <Flygon> Shit, I got distracted

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09:24:47  <andythenorth> lo Alberth

09:24:59  <Alberth> moin

09:36:03  <andythenorth> ho

09:36:10  <andythenorth> this Arctic Basic economy is mostly oil-based

09:36:15  <andythenorth> but no oil rigs until 1967 :P

09:36:20  <andythenorth> somewhat limiting? o_O

09:38:02  <Alberth> ha :)

09:38:10  <Alberth> just move recommended start date? :)

09:38:13  <andythenorth> maybe :P

09:38:28  <andythenorth> or adjust the oil rig date, or put the oil wells back

09:38:36  <andythenorth> ‘but Andy, there are no oil wells in Norway’ :P

09:39:01  <Alberth> sure there are, just look at the screen :p

09:39:56  <Alberth> you'd need forests if you want to do norway :)

09:40:56  <Alberth> hmm, eceonomy around one or a few primary industries

09:41:13  <Alberth> ie all wood things, or all oil things

09:41:13  <andythenorth> that’s what I’ve done

09:41:25  <andythenorth> by accident, there are very few primaries

09:41:34  <andythenorth> it’s a high-value manufacturing economy :P

09:41:46  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic

09:41:57  <andythenorth> the flowchart is very distorted because of that :)

09:43:07  <Alberth> he, some arrows are in the wrong direction :p

09:43:38  <Alberth> you could start with iron ore and forests until 1967 ?

09:44:45  <Alberth> livestock appears out of the blue?

10:03:50  <peter1138> morning

10:04:15  <Alberth> o/

10:10:43  <andythenorth> ha ha

10:10:45  <andythenorth> no farms :P

10:10:46  <andythenorth> oops

10:11:15  <andythenorth> that breaks my savegame :)

10:19:14  <planetmaker> moin

10:22:01  <Alberth> ieks  "svn add ...."    :p

10:22:14  <Alberth> doing too much git :p

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10:25:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27450 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-20 10:25:27 +0100 )

10:25:36  <DorpsGek> -Feature[FS#6391](r27446): Lower the sell-chain button in the train depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya)

10:27:35  <planetmaker> working all day with git now, too, Alberth ?

10:28:07  <planetmaker> hm, nice feature

10:30:24  <Alberth> pretty much

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10:50:46  <Alberth> planetmaker: can we decide something for 6241? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6241 (FS#6241 - Move sprite ten units at a time in sprite aligner if ctrl is pressed)   8 seems the simplest?

10:52:15  <peter1138> 8 is nearer 10

10:53:01  <planetmaker> as said back then: both 8 and 16 seem fine to me and I can't say I have a preference for either.

10:53:30  <Alberth> well, theoretically, 8 can cost you 3 extra clicks, and 16 can cost you 7 clicks :p

10:53:31  <planetmaker> So... 8? Then it's 8 moves across a tile

10:53:57  <planetmaker> well, then it's 8 :)

10:56:22  <Alberth> sounds good to me :)

11:04:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27451 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf_debug_gui.cpp) (2015-11-20 11:04:28 +0100 )

11:04:35  <DorpsGek> -Feature[FS#6241]: Move sprite 8 positions in sprite aligner with ctrl+click. (based on work by juzza1)

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11:07:07  <Wolf01> o/

11:08:23  <Alberth> moin

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12:08:38  <Wolf01> o/

12:08:49  <andythenorth> o/

12:10:59  <__ln___>     ~~~~~~~~^~~~

12:12:38  <Wolf01> quick andy, get out of the water

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12:59:16  <__ln___>     _IÏ___T__T___

12:59:16  <__ln___> ~~~~\___________/~~~~

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13:01:10  <Wolf01> __ln___, feeling artist today?

13:01:52  <__ln___> maybe it's because i'm idle while the computer is compiling

13:02:13  <Wolf01> https://xkcd.com/303/

13:02:23  <__ln___> preciesly

13:02:32  <__ln___> -cisely even

13:03:42  <peter1138> Clearly I need a slower computer.

13:04:32  <Wolf01> instead i'm here, trying to figure out how to refactor some classes of my game

13:06:05  <Wolf01> i need to eat a bowl full of SRP (single responability principle) before laying down the code sometimes

13:06:23  <Wolf01> *responsibility

13:06:39  <Wolf01> also i need to sleep more

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16:35:57  <Alberth> o/

16:37:27  <Eearslya> meow

16:38:44  <peter1138> Hmm, I need some new strings for my violin...

16:38:50  <andythenorth> gut a cat

16:39:01  * andythenorth is not serious, remembering the channel is logged

16:41:12  <peter1138> Clearly.

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17:06:17  * andythenorth has feature requests

17:06:23  <andythenorth> is there somewhere I could add them?

17:07:32  <Alberth> bug tracker?

17:07:51  <Alberth> channel log?

17:08:11  <Alberth> suggestions forum?

17:08:31  <Alberth> your list of things to do

17:09:02  <andythenorth> :P

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17:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> suggest a suggestion box

17:33:33  <andythenorth> neat idea

17:33:39  <andythenorth> we could have an approval process

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17:56:47  <M-E> huh. usually the answer is 'DIY' in OS-related communities :P

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19:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27452 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2015-11-20 19:45:10 +0100 )

19:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:

19:45:19  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf

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20:16:25  <andythenorth> o/

20:20:21  <Eearslya> meow

20:20:27  <Eearslya> What were your feature ideas anyway?

20:22:36  <andythenorth> can’t remember

20:23:00  <andythenorth> @seen Zuu

20:23:00  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 33 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Zuu> __ln__: Sure. And the price is not that bad if you would use VS a lot at work. But it said also that it provided some additional features present in todays VS for older versions.

20:31:02  * andythenorth wonders about a ‘hide all’ windows hotkey, for use during construction

20:31:23  <andythenorth> photoshop, you can hit tab key, and all the palettes are hidden, which is essential when drawing on a small screen

20:31:55  <andythenorth> on 2x zoom, windows obscure the landscape too much to build easily, especially the station window, which also can’t be window-shaded

20:33:21  <Eearslya> Hmm, I know that was a feature on the android mobile port, where hitting 'go to' on an order window would hide all windows until a station was selected

20:33:35  <Eearslya> Not sure how/if that translates to the real thing

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20:56:48  * andythenorth needs a GS :P

20:56:58  <andythenorth> need to play a FIRS test game :)

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22:00:52  <mikegrb> hmmm this station picked a bad place to call

22:01:27  <mikegrb> he's working rtty split on 7047 and all of a sudden wiped out by QST QST QST DE W1AW W1AW

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22:28:46  <mikegrb> worked my first split dx station!

22:29:05  <mikegrb> Sint Maarten DXCC 518 on 7047.997 rtty

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22:30:02  <mikegrb> woah that was all in the wrong channel, sorry guys :p

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23:05:00  <Eearslya> I was..very confused for a moment

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23:05:29  <Eearslya> Beginning to wonder if OTTD had even more to it that I didn't know

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