IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-19
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00:48:25 <drac_boy> hmmm wheres that silly train nut friend now :->
00:56:21 <drac_boy> who said anything about you flygon
00:56:50 <Flygon> But it's been over a year since I last saw ya
00:59:32 <drac_boy> so what both of you doing atm anyhow?
01:09:45 <Flygon> Mate, the channel's grown xP
01:09:50 <Flygon> And I'm about to go shopping
01:12:07 * Mazur is finishing up upgrading his fedora to 22.
01:12:30 <Mazur> And writing a perl/Gtk game.
01:12:50 * drac_boy throws some empty bags at flygon?
01:13:40 <drac_boy> mazur, what kind of game genre?
01:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> <Eearslya> Yeah, google has this thing where their pages are obfuscated in javascript..I have no idea why. <-- i don't know why, but even though (or because?) i have javascript disabled, having a google search page open uses ridiculous amounts of CPU time (like 20%)
01:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> for something that should be a static page...
01:16:35 <Mazur> two of those, and a card game.
01:16:55 <Mazur> Computer versions of existing games.
01:17:50 <drac_boy> ah..does sound interesting...is it freeware/shareware on release?
01:17:58 <Mazur> But an idea is brewing for a resource management/country development/people ruling the of game
01:18:46 <Mazur> Depends on the authors of the original games for the board games, otherwise freeware.
01:19:17 <drac_boy> I might like to try it then after all :)
01:20:12 <Mazur> Well, so far I've just been struggling to get an outline on the board square where the mouse is.
01:20:32 <Mazur> Learning Gtk on the fly.
01:25:25 <drac_boy> well thanks for doing it in gtk tho? :)
01:26:11 <Mazur> Should be easier, the idea was, use glade to design interface, use perl for the program.
01:26:28 <Mazur> Easy to change and test little stuff.
01:27:57 <Mazur> Only displaying an image on top of another image proved to be more involved than I had hoped.
01:28:44 <drac_boy> (I kinda hate games/apps that expect you to install almost an entire alternative DE just to run the bloody thing anyway)
01:31:43 <Mazur> And then they mess up the dependencies, so if not the exact version of a library is installed, it won't install, and on system upgrade they throw you in an infinite loop of dependencies.
01:38:09 <drac_boy> and don't forget systemd compounding basic things too
01:40:59 <Mazur> Ah yes, I really _loved_ that coming out, and being used instead of regular init.d scripts I knew almost by heart.
01:42:27 <Mazur> And now they replaced ntpd and yum, as well.
01:42:54 <drac_boy> at least its good thing I prefer slack/bsd .. so I don't even have to touch some of the silly 'new' things atm .. to our own anyhow
01:43:32 <Mazur> Only they are just improved versions, so why the fuck change the name and commands, anyway?
01:44:39 <Mazur> Oh, and how I adore the 15 different roads to getting sound to play.
01:45:41 <Mazur> esd, artsd, pulse, plain OSS, plain ALSA, jack and who knows how many more....
01:46:14 <Mazur> And every game I like demands a different one.
01:47:14 <Mazur> So I have pulse running through ALSA with OSS compat running through JACK,
01:47:47 <Mazur> Or something like that.
01:48:04 <drac_boy> for me its just oss with the external audio hw coming through jack instead
01:48:21 <drac_boy> dunno why they keep wanting to change things than you know...stick to the old things that worked .. but meh :-s
01:51:26 <Mazur> Well, the one wants the best possible latency, the other the best possible sound quality, and they have a falling out over which of those is more important, so they make their separate version, and a third wants configurability, but differently done.
01:51:51 <Mazur> And since the falling out, they refuse to even speak.
01:56:07 <drac_boy> anyway I'm going for now but maybe another time ok mazur?
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05:31:38 <Eearslya> Eddi|zuHause: I wonder how google even detects missing javascript when supposedly the entire page is javascript..
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15:08:43 <FR^2> is there a way to add a halt to each of a group of e.g. busses?
15:09:41 <peter1138> Are you sharing orders?
15:10:56 <FR^2> Erm. Not sure what you mean. They all have the identical sequence of stops.
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15:18:46 <andythenorth> when does newgrf wiki sync its auth db to tt-forums?
15:19:03 <andythenorth> I have created a new forum user because I have been unable to log in to newgrf wiki for months
15:19:06 <andythenorth> but the new user fails too
15:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> FR^2: "identical" and "shared" are different things
15:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> FR^2: you create shared orders with ctrl+click
15:21:22 <FR^2> Ah, yes, I'm reading the wiki right now, thanks, that is the keyword I was looking for
15:24:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you should highlight o ru dge about that
15:47:02 * andythenorth inventing industries
15:47:29 <TrueBrain> owh! FUDGE! What did I do ...
16:00:41 <andythenorth> or I could post newgrf wiki edits here and one of you could put them in :P
16:03:06 <TrueBrain> it is one easy way to receive a ban, indeed :D
16:04:25 <andythenorth> or I could just stop maintaining the newgrf wiki, also :)
16:04:41 <TrueBrain> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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17:46:19 <Eearslya> Alberth: I replied to your comment a couple days back, FYI XD
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17:46:46 <Alberth> I saw, but I have to try it, which I haven't done yet
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18:58:51 <andythenorth> o/t anyone here know about Wii U controllers?
18:59:06 <andythenorth> I need 4 on christmas day, and they need to not suck
18:59:07 <TrueBrain> used to control a WiiU :P
18:59:10 <andythenorth> and I don’t have 4
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19:17:26 <argoneus> andythenorth: can't you use craigslist or whatever
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20:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause> is there even more than one type of WiiU controller?
20:08:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately there appear to be 4 from nintendo
20:08:21 <andythenorth> and then there are third party options
20:08:36 <andythenorth> and Wii controllers _may_ also be compatible, but that’s unclear, and maybe only for some games
20:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming you have one. just get more of that exact same type
20:08:55 <andythenorth> the one in the box is the one with the screen and costs $140
20:09:03 <andythenorth> and you might only be able to use one or two per Wii U
20:09:19 <andythenorth> the Gamecube controllers might work with a USB adapter, but maybe only in Super Smash Bros
20:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe you should read the manual?
20:09:29 <andythenorth> I don’t have the Wii U yet :P
20:09:36 <andythenorth> and the internet is not yet helpful
20:09:49 <andythenorth> it seems that you have to pick the game you want to play first, then buy controllers for it
20:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid i'm not helpful either
20:10:06 <andythenorth> I wasn’t hopeful in this channel tbh :)
20:10:19 <andythenorth> but I am avoiding Facebook, because of many reasons
20:11:48 <andythenorth> should a car dealer industry accept petrol?
20:11:58 <andythenorth> or should I just make it a ‘garage'?
20:12:03 <andythenorth> how does it work in other countries?
20:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> car dealers and fuel stations are completely separate here
20:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and "garage" means something completely different
20:13:35 <mczapkie> Garage is an obsolete version of car dealer, workshop and gas station 3 in 1
20:13:50 <Taede> though occasionally there might be a service station right outside a dealership, but that is coincidence, they usually aren't connected otherwise
20:15:11 <andythenorth> in the uk, garage is now either workshop or petrol station, they used to be often combined, but now mostly aren't
20:15:22 <andythenorth> and some also sold cars, but now mostly don’t
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20:17:59 <frosch123> here petrol stations are usually combined with a car wash
20:18:15 <mczapkie> they sold or even assembled cars, repair them and sold gasoline, now it evolved
20:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in german, "Garage" is just the (enclosed) place where you put your car overnight
20:18:22 <frosch123> well, and a grocery/stuff store
20:18:40 <mczapkie> but in heyday of automobilism, there was no gas stations
20:18:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that in the UK too P
20:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it evolved completely differently in germany. in the early days, gas was sold at apothecaries, and later it was separated. it never merged with car dealers/repair shops (probably for storage licensing reasons)
20:20:43 <mczapkie> you can make Garages (in pre-war meaning) accepting both, and gasoline station and car dealer which appear later
20:20:47 <frosch123> i have seen some old repair shops with petrol station
20:20:52 <frosch123> never a car dealer though
20:21:12 <mczapkie> I done such thing with ECS extension set
20:21:24 <andythenorth> mczapkie: you gave me the idea ;)
20:21:35 <andythenorth> it happened to fit exactly to something I wanted to do in FIRS
20:21:38 <andythenorth> spooky timing :)
20:22:31 <mczapkie> but in ECS there are stockpile limits and such evolvng havebut I'm not sure if such idea bring anything to FIRS except eye candyness
20:23:00 <mczapkie> in ECS there are stockpile limits and such evolving make sense
20:23:21 <andythenorth> in this case I just need one extra industry
20:23:24 <andythenorth> petrol station I have already
20:23:45 <andythenorth> I wondered if I should merge petrol station + car dealer, but I think not
20:24:18 <mczapkie> vehicles are ENSP or just another new cargo?
20:25:48 <andythenorth> vehicles - new cargo
20:26:09 <andythenorth> but I intend to add an industry for vehicles -> ENSP
20:26:13 <andythenorth> it will be a long chain, but eh
20:26:48 <andythenorth> I am adding ‘machinery dealer’ or ‘supply yard’, not sure which yet
20:26:57 <andythenorth> I have sprites for supply yard, that might influence the decision :P
20:27:41 <mczapkie> at least PKP car shuttle wagons will be functional for FIRS
20:28:23 <mczapkie> PKP author don't want to use vehicle sprites as ENSP because ENSP are in crates
20:28:36 <andythenorth> I have a pretty nice Scandinavan-ish economy for Basic Arctic
20:28:43 <andythenorth> it has a problem with food though :P
20:29:03 <andythenorth> all food is livestock or fish :P
20:29:17 <andythenorth> I don’t want to add dairy, because that’s too similar to Basic Temperate
20:29:30 <mczapkie> maybe grain from harbour?
20:29:33 <andythenorth> grain is boring, FIRS uses it in most economies :)
20:29:48 <andythenorth> there are no vegetables in FIRS at all
20:30:18 <andythenorth> ‘farm produce’ <- lazy cargo o_O
20:30:42 <mczapkie> potatoes are vegetables
20:30:56 <mczapkie> and can be use to make potatoes juice
20:31:14 <mczapkie> thery popular in Scandinavia
20:32:03 <mczapkie> (sorry for typos, I need to clean my keyboard)
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20:34:28 <andythenorth> I could add potatoes
20:34:35 <andythenorth> or root vegetables? more flexible?
20:34:38 <andythenorth> or just vegetables?
20:36:52 <mczapkie> vegetables are ok, but what to do with them? go to food processor or shop?
20:37:23 <andythenorth> they have to go to food processor
20:37:26 <mczapkie> BTW these Firs shops are bloody creatures, they steal fruits from brewery
20:37:36 <andythenorth> otherwise farm might as well just make ‘food'
20:37:56 <andythenorth> fruit going to shop is dumb
20:38:07 <andythenorth> I thought it was a reasonable suggestion so I added it :P
20:38:54 <andythenorth> I should make it go via the food processor
20:41:20 <andythenorth> will end up with food processor in every economy :P
20:42:14 <mczapkie> not sure how simply/complicated must to be Your economy
20:42:31 <mczapkie> potatoes give fork to food processor and brewery
20:42:53 <mczapkie> vegetables is too general term
20:43:56 <andythenorth> it’s a basic economy :)
20:44:05 <andythenorth> I’ve just pushed, I’m waiting for bundles to build the docs ;)
20:46:22 <mczapkie> will these vehicles have mass 2.5t like ECS one, or different?
20:46:55 <mczapkie> because my road set is adjusted to carry as much items as load mass allow
20:47:36 <andythenorth> I haven’t thought about that yet :)
20:47:50 <andythenorth> I would guess about 1t / unit
20:48:53 <mczapkie> I must to use cargo_unit_weight instead of hard-coded coefficient to adapt my load capacity
20:49:25 <andythenorth> ^ not complete yet, some industries need swapped / added
20:49:42 <andythenorth> and I want to make Fish be an export cargo, but not sure how
20:51:05 <mczapkie> how to magify this flow chart?
20:51:19 <mczapkie> ok, got it, show frame
20:51:33 <andythenorth> it has problems in some browsers
20:52:12 <andythenorth> it’s basically the ‘Volvo’ economy :P
20:52:19 <mczapkie> not sure if general store is needed in arctic climate
20:52:32 <andythenorth> need some town destination for food
20:52:46 <andythenorth> got alternative suggestion? o_O
20:54:04 <mczapkie> towns accept food themselves
20:55:09 <andythenorth> yair :) But not if player uses a different climate, or house set or so on :)
20:55:37 * andythenorth wonders about Fish -> Port
20:56:19 <andythenorth> Fish -> Fishing Harbour -> Frozen Fish -> Port :P
20:57:00 <mczapkie> I tought that this set will work only for Arctic climate
20:57:23 <mczapkie> if not, of course food black hole is mandatory
20:57:37 <andythenorth> I keep it flexible per climate :)
20:58:41 <mczapkie> and what about ski resort instead of this boring hotel thing?
20:59:09 <mczapkie> for example some TARS objects etc, located at slope
20:59:54 <andythenorth> which is canada, but is a ski resort...
21:00:41 <mczapkie> generally, I meant to make hotels outside town
21:01:03 <andythenorth> in remote areas?
21:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> on hilltops? ECS tourist center style?
21:01:36 <andythenorth> this economy is one of the only ones without alcohol cargo
21:01:49 <andythenorth> nordic hotels without alcohol? :o
21:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> alcohol has crazy taxes on it up there...
21:02:32 <mczapkie> as I said, potatos and potato juice
21:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think. i've never actually been north of Gedser (Denmark))
21:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (and that was in the early 90's, when i didn't care about alcohol. or prices)
21:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> mczapkie: wasn't it the polish that made vodka from potatos?
21:05:52 <andythenorth> I left out alcohol deliberately :)
21:06:01 <andythenorth> the thing with basic economies is
21:06:23 <andythenorth> they have to have: mail, pax, goods, mnsp, ensp, fmsp
21:06:52 <andythenorth> they start to look a bit the same
21:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why do they need all the supplies?
21:07:18 <andythenorth> they’re pretty unavoidable in FIRS
21:07:32 <andythenorth> mnsp could be eliminated, but it would be difficult
21:07:39 <andythenorth> also chemicals seems to be needed in all of them
21:07:51 <andythenorth> and fish, because ‘people like sea based industry'
21:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 6 fixed. you can use 10 out of like 30 others to mix things up
21:08:18 <andythenorth> hence desire to drop alcohol, which is in all other economies
21:08:26 <mczapkie> in case of basi industry, maybe general 'supplies' are enough
21:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you could try merging farm/engineering supplies
21:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and have that the difference between "basic" and "extended" economies
21:09:37 * andythenorth ponders wood -> sauna :P
21:10:11 <mczapkie> I found strange bug related to road vehicles custom sound
21:10:27 <mczapkie> not sure if it is my fault or openttd bug
21:10:32 <andythenorth> you managed to compile with road vehicles custom sound? :o
21:10:48 <andythenorth> I tried adding them to HEQS, but compile failed
21:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds need very special format
21:11:44 <mczapkie> yes, I have this format, it works ok
21:11:57 <mczapkie> if only one road vehicle grf is loaded
21:12:38 <mczapkie> for example sound_effect: sound("src/sfx/Jelczdoors_ermfilm.wav"); play this sound if started
21:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> mczapkie: it probably doesn't hurt to report it. make sure you attach a test grf to reproduce it
21:13:06 <mczapkie> but if two grfs are loaded, sound are swapped
21:13:40 <mczapkie> ok, I will make simply grf and check it
21:17:05 <mczapkie> horses are honking, trucks are ringing and trams are whining
21:17:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i read a poem for children that went like that :p
21:19:22 <frosch123> the summoning dark cannot handle those
21:23:06 <andythenorth> maybe scandinavians just eat meat and fish
21:23:12 <andythenorth> no other food groups? o_O
21:25:52 <oskari89> andythenorth: Potatoes and rye / oat grain? :P
21:27:05 <oskari89> Maybe also, sugar beet -> sugar -> bakery?
21:27:18 <andythenorth> potatoes -> frozen chip factory -> food? :P
21:29:41 <mczapkie> fish -> rotten fish -> food (rakfish)
21:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> do they only make these to troll tourists, or is there actually a way to make them an enjoyable meal?
21:36:12 <andythenorth> I saw a video recently of people being sick eating rakfish
21:36:43 <andythenorth> eh, so this economy could just import food
21:36:48 <andythenorth> which is simplest
21:44:00 <andythenorth> but it also exports food
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21:48:53 <andythenorth> my TV has an earworming TV ad for ‘Norwegian Seafood - fresh from the cold, clear waters of Norway’ on heavy repeat :P
21:50:02 <planetmaker> those sea food farms are funky. At night they switch under-water lights on and off so that the fish eat more during night
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21:58:52 <andythenorth> ‘frozen seafood’ cargo? o_O
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22:39:27 <andythenorth> 8 crates ENSP produced per 8 vehicles delivered
22:42:31 <mczapkie> these variables in industry window are indexed by hex or dec?
22:43:42 <mczapkie> newgrf debug information
22:44:34 <andythenorth> ha that’s the ‘bug’ icon I drew
22:44:51 <andythenorth> these vars are the numbers in nfo spec
22:46:07 <mczapkie> but these are decimal numbers?
22:48:27 <mczapkie> I need to modify production depending on nearby tiles, but have no acces to negative indexes for industry
22:48:45 <mczapkie> therefore I must make different layouts and check layout number
22:50:09 <andythenorth> you can’t get negative offsets?
22:50:16 <andythenorth> which cb is this?
22:50:29 <andythenorth> iirc, most of them are signed
22:50:40 <mczapkie> for industry only 0..15 offset can be used
22:50:58 <mczapkie> for industry tile positive or negative
22:51:28 <andythenorth> are you checking for nearby houses or something?
22:51:28 <mczapkie> I need to check vicinity around industry but can only south est
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22:51:43 <mczapkie> no, river tiles for water treatment station
22:51:57 <mczapkie> more tiles, highest production
22:52:11 <andythenorth> your using var 62?
22:52:16 * andythenorth wonders why it’s unsigned
22:53:06 <andythenorth> how often does it change? You could check from the tile in a tile loop, or animation, and write to permanent storage in the industry
22:53:38 <mczapkie> nearby_tile_water_class
22:54:38 <mczapkie> basically one can assume that it can be checked once during construction
22:57:39 <andythenorth> what if river is destroyed during game?
22:59:30 <mczapkie> production will stay the same
22:59:58 <andythenorth> yeah checking on construction makes sense then ;)
23:00:06 <andythenorth> mczapkie: are you in this channel most days?
23:00:21 <mczapkie> I'm using location check for tiles, prepared different layouts for different river tiles count and made industry production check based on var[44]
23:01:00 <mczapkie> usually I have no time to stay on IRC, but today my wife went to another town :)
23:01:27 <andythenorth> my wife doesn’t care if I’m on irc or not, as long as dinner is made and the kitchen is tidy
23:02:33 <andythenorth> making FIRS is more fun when other people are working on newgrfs too :P
23:03:38 <mczapkie> BTW, how to enable compiling on jenkins?
23:04:39 <mczapkie> somebody put one my project on jenkins but didn't figure how to perform it
23:05:04 <andythenorth> you need the .devzone files
23:05:07 <andythenorth> I’ll find the FIRS one
23:05:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: can you fix my dinner too?
23:05:50 <mczapkie> thanks, I will check these for this project wich is already on jenkins
23:06:47 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: yeah, in a bit
23:06:52 <andythenorth> will you do my washing?
23:07:08 <mczapkie> I tried to fix dinner once, but kitchen was not tidy aftermath
23:07:12 <TrueBrain> least I can do I guess
23:10:30 <andythenorth> this economy is very short on primary industry, I think keep iron ore
23:11:22 <mczapkie> in my opinion, iron ore trade for bauxite is interesting option
23:11:54 <andythenorth> it’s realistic :P
23:12:58 <mczapkie> but from gameplay view, not sure about double use of chemials for aluminium plant and again metal workshop
23:13:42 <mczapkie> maybe factory instead of metal workshop: metal+wood (Ikea etc)
23:13:53 <andythenorth> interesting idea
23:15:18 <mczapkie> this would give 2 independend sources for goods
23:15:39 <mczapkie> now chemicals are double mandatory
23:16:09 <mczapkie> 3 destination for chenicals is enough
23:16:18 <andythenorth> yeah, chemicals became a fundamental cargo in FIRS, they seem to go everywhere :P
23:17:09 * mczapkie is going AFK to finish ECSext
continue to next day ⏵
