IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-15
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00:00:13 <frosch123> argoneus: time to preorder it? :p
00:01:14 <frosch123> i pondered starting a bullshit thread on the forums
00:01:35 <frosch123> with the question: how much would you pay to preorder ottd 2.0
00:02:14 <frosch123> but usually the forum people don't consider that funny
00:03:57 <Wolf01> but only with season pass included, i don't want to pay again every time andy releases a dlc
00:04:19 <frosch123> oi, firs season pass
00:04:26 <frosch123> too bad andy already left
00:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andy always already left...
00:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, frosch123 always already left :p
00:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's me :p
00:05:46 <frosch123> i thought i join just after being summoned
00:06:50 * drac_boy pokes eddi with a coal shovel
00:07:35 <argoneus> Xaroth|Work: mc is playable
00:07:38 <argoneus> without crashes every 5 mins
00:09:50 <drac_boy> I almost expect that glass box above the yellow face to flash a bit like KITT's red light :)
00:10:45 <frosch123> why do brittish engines always have such a steep front?
00:11:36 <frosch123> also, what weird engine is that
00:11:49 <frosch123> it does not have the cabin in the front, but it does not seem to be a steam engine either
00:12:09 <drac_boy> frosch...there were actually a few uk diesels with the cab being placed flat at one end
00:12:15 <drac_boy> not just only the class 09's
00:12:23 <frosch123> in my mind only steam engines have the cabin in the back, because of the tender
00:13:50 <drac_boy> frosch well I recall these particular then-common diesels would sometimes run nose-to-nose (aka cab forward) in pair .. other times its cab-to-cab
00:13:59 <drac_boy> trying to find the proper name now so hang on :)
00:15:28 <Wolf01> frosch123, what about the fairlie ones?
00:15:44 <drac_boy> aha it was called 'Type 1' (with its small size compared to everything else no wonder it got numbered one)
00:16:15 <drac_boy> seem to be listed for 1000hp in 1957+ (that explains them often doubleheading)
00:16:51 <drac_boy> wolf01 fairlie? you mean that weird stuffed up thing that looks like someone crashed two locomotives into each others' rear? :)
00:17:14 <frosch123> yeah, it's two engines
00:17:29 <frosch123> like you can put two graphics cards into one computer, but still run only one display
00:17:32 <drac_boy> I never really understood the reasoning behind its design but then again it does seem interesting running down the line nevertheless
00:17:35 <frosch123> but at double frame rate or so
00:17:57 <drac_boy> I'll rather order a standard compound 0-6-6-0 or so if I had needed more traction..but to our own :)
00:18:30 <drac_boy> wolf01 that seem to error out?
00:19:54 <drac_boy> wolf01 ah well that was due to both being oil fired and re having a lot of tunnel on grade so simple solution to smoke problem was to flip the thing around and run long oil pipes as to put the cab ahead of the smokestack
00:20:18 <drac_boy> but then sometimes they ran doublehead so the second cab still had to carry a breather kit to work safely through the tunnels :-s
00:22:00 <drac_boy> wolf01 not quite related but the EMD SD40T came to be only because the original units overheated easily in the long 10mph drag through tunnels .. so the major alteration was to make the engine suck air from just below the chassis (instead of right at the roof as usual) and that more or less cured the overheat shutdown issues
00:22:12 <drac_boy> T could be short for 'Tunnel motors' as it sometimes was called on paper
00:22:59 <drac_boy> not surprisingly the SD40T were only found in the colorado area (and only when UP did buy out SP did these locomotives then sometimes end up on different routes too)
00:23:04 <frosch123> Wolf01: yay, an explosive-safe engine
00:24:04 <Wolf01> it reminds me of the steamboy anime movie
00:25:15 <drac_boy> wolf01 btw if you want something a bit less than normal .. look up the 4-2-0 and 2-2-0's that existed during the 1800's era (basically same chassis&boiler as the then-common American 4-4-0's after all)
00:25:35 <drac_boy> kinda weird to see what looks like a 4-4-0 locomotive actually instead riding on 2-2-0 axles :-s
00:26:01 <drac_boy> and which of I need to afk for a bit...shouldn't be too long tho (unless buffer fluxes up)
00:40:55 <drac_boy> heh that 4-2-0 looks weird..almost like a donkey engine slapped into some weird boiler
00:43:15 <frosch123> Wolf01: don't drive it without a wagon, i guess?
00:43:38 <frosch123> but hey, all axles are powered :)
00:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a segway crossed with a lawnmower? :p
00:47:04 <Wolf01> we used a lot of these here, usually you stick a cart to it and go around
00:47:37 <Wolf01> or you just use it to turn over your garden
00:58:02 <drac_boy> wolf01 I do know something you may like tho...what kind of locomotive has two separate boilers driving a common center rail? :P
00:59:43 <drac_boy> only example of its own kind if I recall
01:00:46 <Wolf01> i knew monorail opened the road for more weirdness
01:01:31 <drac_boy> wolf01 well..there were weird attempts at gyro-powered vehicles both on road and rail
01:02:19 <drac_boy> would you believe a 2+outrigger car that only had a small engine (like 10-40hp or something) turning a large gryo wheel which hence also drove the main tires too
01:02:39 <drac_boy> for obvious reasons I think it never made to mass production :)
01:06:47 <drac_boy> normally you expect a highspeed express to be of the tender type but this was a tank instead .. at least the short distance they worked was still more than good enough for them tho
01:07:44 <Wolf01> that is just a steam engine with a chassis, not so much different from a mallard one
01:08:24 <drac_boy> weirdly enough china did have something a bit similar but I have no clue where it is tho :)
01:11:02 <drac_boy> probably has to be two separate hatches for sure as I don't think the actual one can be slanted like the photo seem to suggest
01:11:43 <drac_boy> funny enough I think one of the jnr electric locomotive also had a similar wedgie shape (and it soon wasn't too popular as it couldn't run bidirectional)
01:15:37 <drac_boy> ah almost forgot that one too...yeah that one was a bit interesting..at least it more or less worked ok for long distance trains
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01:17:41 <drac_boy> the headlights do have a resemblence to the 50's cars anyway
01:18:01 <Wolf01> yeah, it looks like one from fallout games
01:18:55 <drac_boy> I do like the Bullet Series 0 trains tho mind you :) (and did you know that the nose was hammered out by hand all the way?)
01:20:17 <drac_boy> wolf01 as I recall it was due to because it was a small number of trainsets it wasn't cost-worthy doing the tool and die .. so they rather took a flat sheetmetal and keep hammering it in steps till it comes to almost a perfect shape then probably sand it a bit and paint it .. done
01:21:05 <drac_boy> oh and another thing not everyone probably knew too..the nose actually did open up to an emergency swing-out coupler (and the swing was rope-rigged I think..or was it cable? I forgot either way)
01:23:48 <drac_boy> I don't think the coupler was ever really used much at all due to the high reliability and everything...as I've never seen any photos of it (only the original movie clip of it being tested with a special group of people watching)
01:28:08 <drac_boy> wolf01 anyway you want another one? :)
01:30:09 <Wolf01> i know it, it was too large to take curves
01:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and can you dig something up that wasn't already dragged through this channel a dozen times in the last 10 years?
01:33:21 <Wolf01> maybe the hyperloop ;)
01:33:35 <drac_boy> wolf01 at least russia was not always crazy tho
01:35:03 <drac_boy> their "children railway" (as english translation puts it apparently) still have some interesting small steam locomotives
01:35:23 <drac_boy> almost a bit polish-like in the big headlights compared to the boiler size :)
01:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> those railways were usual diesel-driven around here...
01:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess they reused factory engines
01:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes they had downscaled chassis from "real" engines
01:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how the russians called this, but around here, the original term was "pioneer railways", where "pioneer" was a youth organization, sort of comparable to boy scouts, but more all-encompassing
01:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> they changed it to "children railway" after socialism broke down...
01:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> to make it sound less indoctrinating
01:40:46 <drac_boy> yeah. for at least one of the russia one I did read about...only the dispatching and some driver tasks were left to the adults but the youths otherwise could take part of anything else including stationmasters
01:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, basically it's a teaching operation
01:42:09 <drac_boy> oh and I forgot where but there was one particular location in russia where three separate gauges crossed in the same place .. broad gauge (standard network), standard gauge (tram line), and narrow gauge (children railway)
01:42:54 <drac_boy> normally you only see 2 gauges together
01:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look very special to me
01:45:58 <drac_boy> old steam locomotive tender + some jury-rigged axle with chain drive + finding a truck engine to throw onto middle of chassis .. then a lot of sheetmetal welding to make up the odd body
01:46:14 <drac_boy> homemade diesel locomotive .. probably would had never been approved these years, but back then who cared
01:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> which is basically a truck engine slapped on a chassis
01:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and because the engine had only one gear and couldn't go backwards, they had to slap an equivalent on the other end
01:48:22 <drac_boy> eddi..ah..the pigs .. I always liked them .. two engines at first seem ineffective but it actually made things easier being able to drive in both directions at whim :)
01:49:11 <drac_boy> they did have some narrow gauge versions but at least one railroad soon stopped running them as they were afraid about its stability
01:49:29 <drac_boy> (its still preserved tho which is the only reason I knew about that)
01:50:10 <drac_boy> there used to be a single-axle trailer built for them but of course the problem was you had to drag the trailer around to other side etc so I guess soon everyone didn't even like them
01:50:21 <FLHerne> The County Donegal railway had an entire fleet of those weird bus-railcar things in gradually-improving variants
01:50:48 <drac_boy> the outboards used to store bikes+cargos was an interesting post-production retrofit and it actually looks better that way for some reason to me :)
01:52:59 <Wolf01> there's also the "centennial" featured in that video
01:54:43 <drac_boy> that was I think maybe technically a 0-4+4 .. no idea how you really classify these tbh
01:56:25 <FLHerne> Not articulated, but the boiler's sideways :P
01:56:38 <drac_boy> ehh that taff vale one does look a little too weird indeed
01:57:20 <Wolf01> i think i'll go to bed too, maybe i'll read the logs ;)
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01:59:11 <FLHerne> Of course, we actually have a working fully-integrated one, thanks to the Great Western Society :-)
02:01:44 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: That's odd, are the traction motors at the opposite end to the engine?
02:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
02:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have not really an idea
02:03:47 <FLHerne> Well, the far end bogie has a driveshaft and coupling rods
02:04:05 <FLHerne> Near end looks like a plain bogie
02:05:08 <FLHerne> Might help with weight distribution?
02:08:19 <FLHerne> "The three axle bogie carried the weight of the engine and generator whilst the smaller two axle bogie carried the weight of the two traction motors"
02:08:35 <FLHerne> Looks like I was right, and that is a really odd arrangement
02:08:56 <FLHerne> So the engine sits directly on the unpowered bogie, and then drives the other end
02:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess that somewhat makes sense for diesel-electric
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02:28:06 <FLHerne> Having the weight over the driving axles would seem useful though
02:28:20 <FLHerne> You have an awful lot of big hills over there
02:28:45 <drac_boy> well i imagine it depends on actual weight spread
02:29:38 <drac_boy> like there was this emu for a mountainous route in germany .. and it only had 1 axle per truck powered (instead of usual 2) due to limiting mechanical factors .. but even with that it still was a solid one .. even hauling several loaded 2-axle coaches without assistance
02:31:10 <drac_boy> mm and a bit related but Santa Fe usually prefer B-B diesels for their not-so-flat routes but they somehow still liked their small group of alco's which were A1A-A1A's .. even got to haul the Chief trains too
02:32:04 <sim-al2> East half of the Santa Fe is pretty flat
02:32:17 <sim-al2> Western part, not as much
02:34:03 <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh well I don't know a lot about SF on the ground but I do know some about their locomotives nevertheless .. what can I say :)
02:34:53 <drac_boy> of course there is always these "SFSP" locomotives that were painted a bit too fast before ICC rejected the merger propsal :)
02:35:03 <sim-al2> I'm not really an expert there either, but they had one of the best routes across the country
02:35:11 <drac_boy> at least the short bout of red+yellow color instead was an interesting photo take
02:35:47 <sim-al2> They avoided the mountain districts that the Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Milwaukee, etc had
02:36:45 <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. about 'avoid' .. well I have two magazines that talked a lot about them but Western Pacific was interesting as it broke the monopoly that Southern Pacific would otherwise have had for example
02:37:22 <drac_boy> that railroad was also the one that had that interesting wye that was half placed on trestles too I believe
02:39:26 <drac_boy> also WP had some interesting land where it would be green in early spring (due to the additional rain) but was always a semi-parched yellow all year long otherwise
02:39:39 <drac_boy> thats what you get for the particular climate they were located in in middle of the mountains tho
02:41:50 <drac_boy> ah sim-a12 I almost forgot one more thing about SP .. Don Pass .. was sometimes a bit weird .. you could have the train roll past lush green grass into a tunnel .. then when it comes out of the other end of tunnel theres nothing but snow everywhere!
02:42:05 <drac_boy> bit of extreme climate buffer if you ask me :)
02:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, what's a "wye"?
02:42:39 <sim-al2> Yeah, a big enough mountain will do that
02:43:06 <sim-al2> THere, it's actually a 3 way junction between the main route and a connection to another railroad
02:43:11 <drac_boy> eddi .. ah not sure if its an american term or not .. but its that one where you have a triangular shaped track (sometimes as a 3-way junction .. other time to turn around things without using a turntable)
02:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so, why don't they call it a triangle?
02:44:34 <drac_boy> you tell me, also 'wye' can refer to a switch that has both legs curved away from each other (rather than one straight and one curved routes) ... confusing term I guess
02:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that comes from the letter Y
02:45:39 <drac_boy> sim-a12 if we were in britian we would want a driver not an engineer :P (exactly same thing tho when you talk about it anyway)
02:46:16 <drac_boy> or how about a lorry instead of a truck .. but heh anyway I wouldn't go too far into this thing about different english's .. I have to afk soon anyhow :-s
02:46:43 <sim-al2> Just joking about the terminology :D
02:47:11 <sim-al2> Why wye, that's a great question
02:47:45 <drac_boy> sim-a12 if you're still around somewhere tomorrow we should talk more (here or pm I dunno) ok? :)
02:47:49 <drac_boy> I need to go for now sorry :-/
02:48:37 * drac_boy hands sim-a12 a canadian-sized firebox shovel before running off :P
02:49:20 <sim-al2> Hmm, Candian-sized... gonna need a bigger house
02:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you people have strange expressions... "canadian-sized"
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09:11:56 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 8 hours, 28 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <frosch123> but hey, all axles are powered :)
09:14:31 * andythenorth lost in graphviz options :)
09:17:42 <greeter> hmm this is weird. i thought i set this game to a normal amount of industries, but the map is just polluted with them
09:23:48 <Alberth> yeah, "normal" is closer to "overwhelming" :)
09:24:52 <greeter> ok, so i went back and set it to low, seems a little more sane
09:24:53 <Alberth> but it depends a lot on eg the number of industries
09:25:42 <Alberth> if you have many different industries, you need a higher density to ensure they all get created
09:26:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: what option is the problem?
09:26:18 <andythenorth> I am learning what they all are :)
09:26:25 <andythenorth> test, make, view :)
09:26:50 <Alberth> similar considerations are for map size, small map needs more dense industries
09:28:00 <greeter> this one is pretty large
09:29:47 <Alberth> you typically want less dense industries at a larger map indeed
09:30:16 <Alberth> hmm, graphviz site is down, no simple way to get a gallery of examples
09:30:54 <greeter> i think i struck a good balance. low number of towns/industires on a 2048 by 2048 map
09:32:28 <Alberth> why do you use such a big map? I always find 512x512 is sufficient
09:33:50 * Flygon gives Eddi|zuHause an EVIL Watermelon as a gift of appreciation
09:33:52 <greeter> it's roughly the size of the height map i created. though i have to admit, i may have made that too big
09:36:32 <Alberth> I thought the magic number was 666?
09:36:52 <Flygon> Any sequence if 6's large enough justifies the worship
09:37:22 * andythenorth waits for bundles to build FIRS
09:38:38 <Alberth> you pick weird lords to worship :)
09:39:00 <andythenorth> we can compare-contrast when bundles updates :P
09:42:34 <Flygon> Alberth: And yet it's given me, just now, a stupid insane new station layout
09:42:46 <Flygon> Not enough room for RoRo, but need the benefits
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09:44:48 <andythenorth> slow bundles is slow :(
09:45:24 <Alberth> it looks way more readable than the versions you had yesterday
09:45:57 <Alberth> bundles is also building the grf :p
09:47:37 <Alberth> wicked, I get tooltips on the cargo connections :)
09:47:51 <andythenorth> ach, my browser had cached it
09:48:05 <andythenorth> I switched layout from top->bottom to left->right
09:48:22 <andythenorth> looks more natural to my brain, and makes better use of space, given the aspect ratio of the industry nodes
09:48:47 <Alberth> it does make better use of the space indeed
09:49:30 <Alberth> perhaps also create right -> left version for our eastern friends?
09:50:04 <andythenorth> ideally all primary industries would have same node rank
09:50:08 <andythenorth> so they are all vertically aligned
09:50:56 <andythenorth> vertically / horizontally / s
09:51:03 <Alberth> full firs size can be increased?
09:51:47 <andythenorth> it’s using the space weirdly isn’t it
09:51:58 <andythenorth> graphviz can control canvas size, but I haven’t made that work yet
09:52:36 <Alberth> you already have colours for the primary industries, why do you want them aligned?
09:52:55 <Alberth> graphviz just scales the picture to make it fit
09:53:39 <Alberth> the more you fine tune, you more it will break when you change things
09:54:11 <Alberth> imho the whole point of graphviz is that you don't do manual alyout
09:54:13 <andythenorth> or when adding new economies
09:55:20 <Alberth> if you do manual layout, quality will indeed increase, significantly even, in general
09:56:36 <andythenorth> I’m interested in this graphviz stuff because we have a work problem, showing the available paths through multiple connected pages
09:56:55 <andythenorth> which are customer-editable and not predictable in advance, and highly variable
09:57:16 <Alberth> how big is that, in terms of nodes
09:57:22 <andythenorth> controlling that manually won’t be a thing :)
09:57:42 <andythenorth> usually 5-20, but pathologically, up to about 300
09:58:25 <Alberth> 2d visualization techniques scale to about 30-40 nodes, unless you have huuuuuge paper sizes
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09:59:06 <Alberth> you may want to merge some things into a single node if bigger
09:59:23 <andythenorth> I think it would have to rely on vertical layout and browser scroll
10:00:27 <andythenorth> it shows routing through surveys that contain skip logic (next page shown depends on answer to a routing question in current page)
10:00:48 <andythenorth> usually it’s simple. But it’s the non-simple cases that customers need visualised, to verify and debug them :P
10:00:53 <Alberth> oh right, that's quite simple usually
10:01:27 <Alberth> if it doesn't make sense on the browser screen it's too complicated :p
10:02:19 <andythenorth> graphviz looks like the most appropriate tool, it’s a simple directed graph
10:02:34 <Alberth> dot would be good for that, it assumes a tree of nodes
10:03:09 <Alberth> other common forms are circular layout of nodes
10:03:25 <Alberth> although I haven't really seen those yet
10:03:33 <andythenorth> so graphviz is a wrapper, and there are multiple layout agorithms it can use, like dot and neato?
10:03:39 <Alberth> it's probably depending on the kind of applications
10:03:43 * andythenorth is trying to understand the structure
10:04:18 <Alberth> graphviz is a umbrella of tools with a common language, the graphviz language
10:04:35 <Alberth> there are several layout tools like dot and neato that all speak that language
10:04:53 <Alberth> so you can generate a graph, and then use different algorithms for layout
10:05:35 <Alberth> dot is the most famous tool, so many people think dot is the only thing, and use "dot language" to refer to the language
10:06:31 <Alberth> you can also have a look at yEd, it's a commercial tool written in Java
10:07:28 <Alberth> it tends to produce better pictures for complicated graphs
10:07:51 <Alberth> and it has extensions for 'folding' sub-graphs into a node
10:09:08 <andythenorth> it’s rather shinier than graphviz
10:09:23 <Alberth> yep, commercial vs academic :p
10:09:32 <Alberth> also, graphviz is much older
10:13:58 * andythenorth wonders how to test neato instead of dot
10:17:22 <Alberth> great link about gestallt btw :)
10:17:43 <andythenorth> for the cargoflow, but more so I understand the difference
10:17:48 <andythenorth> the graphviz site is down, so eh
10:19:39 <Rubidium> Alberth: I'm not sure whether you are right with respect to graphviz being the language under which dot was developed
10:20:49 <andythenorth> needs overlap prevention :)
10:20:50 <Alberth> ah could be they started with dot, but currently everything is under graphviz
10:24:59 <Rubidium> dot user guide: 1991 (or earlier), neato's user guide: 1992
10:25:13 <andythenorth> ah so I call neato, not dot
10:27:03 <Alberth> unfortunately, graphviz.org is down
10:27:26 <Alberth> it doesn't improve significantly for me
10:31:18 <Alberth> dot assumes trees even
10:31:31 <andythenorth> if there was only one edge between each primary and secondary, neato would be prettier
10:31:39 <andythenorth> but that’s not the case
10:32:41 <Alberth> for different graph shapes, you have dedicated tools to do layout
10:33:31 <Alberth> and depending on how well the actual graph matches the assumptions you get better or worse results :)
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10:59:15 * andythenorth considers fetching the cargoicons from the spritesheet
11:00:12 <Alberth> and add images for the industries, and you get nice pictures like ECS has :)
11:08:14 * andythenorth wants to constrain edge out-in points to same origin/destination
11:16:08 <andythenorth> seems to be samehead and sametail, but not sure how to use those
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11:34:37 <andythenorth> I wondered about that
11:34:57 <andythenorth> it probably takes more detailed calculation than is currently provided
11:35:02 <andythenorth> and it has to hard limit to 5
11:37:14 <Alberth> you would have to decide which arraows come from roughly the same side
11:39:10 * lastmikoi wonders when andythenorth sleeps
12:15:00 <TrueBrain> lastmikoi: the same time as cats sleep
12:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> cats literally sleep all the time :p
12:16:20 <TrueBrain> except when they don't ;)
12:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (except when they demand food)
12:17:20 <Wolf01> eddi, just one question... do you sleep?
12:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> currently? no :p
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12:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, there was a ~9 hour period between writing in this channel. plenty of time to fit some sleep in...
12:19:18 <Wolf01> from the logs i noticed you left for 15 seconds
12:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so, people only sleep when they are not logged in?
12:22:05 <Wolf01> usually, but i know most of us have bouncers
12:23:10 <Wolf01> mmmh i need to find a way to fix the minecraft installation on my slate... every time i run it, it starts in demo mode :|
12:23:36 * andythenorth sleeps between 22.30 and 05.18 usually
12:24:08 <Wolf01> you always miss the most important conversations
12:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they always happen like 23:00-2:00 ;)
12:25:21 <Alberth> really important conversations pick a better time :p
12:37:31 <peter1138> My tablet keeps rebooting :(
12:43:54 <Wolf01> did you try to turn off then on again? oh wait... it is doing that by itself :|
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12:58:11 <andythenorth> station rating affects pax moved to station from houses?
12:58:15 <andythenorth> or is that just industries?
12:58:48 <andythenorth> can we fuck with rating, modulated by number of reachable destinations in current pax graph for that station node?
12:59:01 <andythenorth> more destinations -> higher rating
12:59:12 <andythenorth> it’s an ugly hack, just occurred to me is all
12:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is usually that counting all potential destination is non-trivial
12:59:32 <andythenorth> the station knows that, no?
12:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> also, low rating has bad side effects
12:59:48 <andythenorth> the graph is known for each station, iirc from reading code
13:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the problem is finding the destinations which are not yet in the graph
13:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you don't want to punish the start of the game too much
13:01:50 <andythenorth> 1 destination = + 10%
13:02:15 <andythenorth> dunno, just ideas
13:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's all terrible in its own way.
13:03:03 <andythenorth> same could apply to freight :P
13:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> again, only if you find an efficient way to go over the whole map repeatedly and count which destination is connected and which one is not
13:08:11 <andythenorth> that assumes you’re running a sum of % connected or such
13:08:52 <andythenorth> I am proposing only a ‘more connections’ bonus
13:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to demand 5 destinations, when there are only 2 destinations on the map
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13:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it doesn't make a lot of sense to demand 5 connections, when there are 3000 on the map
13:09:45 <andythenorth> ach just count the number of towns
13:22:07 <frosch123> i have really developed a hatred about gnome-keyring this week
13:22:46 <Eearslya> frosch123: Random FYI, you might wanna remove sell-button-depressing from the Todo list; that's where I got it from
13:23:22 <frosch123> oh, didn't know it was from that list
13:23:31 <frosch123> i thought, why had noone ever thought about that :)
13:23:46 <Eearslya> I'm not that creative, unfortunately!
13:24:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
13:25:06 <Eearslya> Which is why now..I have no idea what to do next.
13:26:31 <andythenorth> code RoadTypes :)
13:27:11 <Eearslya> I don't even know what those are and they both sound scary
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13:29:21 <Eearslya> I get the feeling like that has been suggested before, and there's a reason nobody's come up to the task yet.. XD
13:29:49 <andythenorth> roadtypes is too hard, newdocks nobody finds it interesting :)
13:31:19 <Eearslya> I get the feeling RoadTypes is..self-explanatory, but what's NewDocks?
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13:32:30 <Zuu> Cheers for your commited patch :-)
13:33:05 <andythenorth> newdocks allows more flexibility in the location of docks
13:33:06 <Zuu> For what next to do, find yourself an itch to solve.
13:33:10 <andythenorth> not just on coast tiles
13:33:23 <andythenorth> there are many complications and features that could be thought of
13:34:01 <andythenorth> but basically, if they could be built on a 1x2 or 2x1 pair of (water, land) then most cases would be met
13:34:03 <Zuu> And remember, the impossible only takes longer to do. :-)
13:34:19 <Eearslya> See, that's the thing, Zuu..I'm not sure I've really played long enough to develop itches like that.
13:34:31 <andythenorth> the main case is docks for rivers and canals, where raising land to make sloped tiles for the dock is ugly
13:35:00 <andythenorth> flat docks could also be built at sea, using the canals-on-sea hack and a bulldozed tile :P
13:35:32 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: There are many ways to weigh rating by number of reachable destinations. The problem is defining what you want to achieve with it. I've spent way too much time with that question in the past ...
13:35:55 <andythenorth> it was prompted by a forum thread tbh
13:36:11 <andythenorth> I thought maybe encouraging > 1 connection might be fun for some reason
13:37:00 <andythenorth> and it would _maybe_ be an answer to the ‘more routes = less cargo per vehicle’ supposed problem
13:37:16 <Zuu> Eearslya: You could browse OpenTTD Problems forum or feature requests in the bug tracker if you like to find others itches.
13:38:40 <fonsinchen> The problem with the forum threads is that as soon as you propose something you instantly attract the people who "sort of" like your specific variant and start amending it with all kinds of complicated specials until it gets impossible to implement.
13:38:59 <fonsinchen> In particular, don't talk to Eddi|zuHause ;)
13:39:43 <fonsinchen> The only way to solve it is come up with a single clear vision of what it should be and not let anybody influence you.
13:40:26 <andythenorth> it’s plausible that station rating would be moderated by number of destinations served, but I don’t know if it has gameplay benefit
13:41:14 <andythenorth> it’s also a step closer to enforcing a specific play style, which might be bad
13:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think some of the cargod[ei]st patches had that, and it was deemed bad for gameplay
13:42:04 * Zuu liked that feature although it may had some flaw
13:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with station ratings, it has all sorts of side effects. disappearing cargo, closing industries, ...
13:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> especially combined with ECS, which has really hard restrictions of ratings
13:43:06 <andythenorth> add a special flag on cargos, ‘prefers many destinations’ :P
13:43:24 * fonsinchen hears the word "special"
13:43:31 <andythenorth> when there are complexity problems, add another var
13:43:36 <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
13:44:03 <fonsinchen> Well, one thing is for sure: Whatever mechanism, you need to be able to turn it off.
13:44:41 <andythenorth> it also does nothing for ‘lots of pax waiting at stations’ which is one of the 2 remaining niggles I have with cdist :)
13:44:49 <andythenorth> it makes it worse, if anything
13:46:07 <fonsinchen> Yes, the problem as it is now only appears once you have lots of destinations
13:46:37 <fonsinchen> If you increase station rating with number of destinations the increase in number of passengers is even more dramatic than it is now.
13:48:54 <andythenorth> which gives passengers destinations based on shapes
13:48:56 <fonsinchen> As a solution to the "too many pax" problem you could rather try to punish travelling time some more.
13:49:27 <andythenorth> I think the solution is bigger vehicles :D
13:49:35 <andythenorth> which I can help with :P
13:49:47 <Eearslya> Zuu: My problem with forum suggestions is basically exactly what the 'Todo list' page says; a lot of user-suggestions are involved and complicated code-wise
13:49:57 <Eearslya> That button thing was simple enough, at least!
13:50:19 * andythenorth wonders if bigger vehicles actually helps
13:50:35 <andythenorth> for congested transfer stations, it may at points lead to even higher ‘waiting’ counts
13:50:56 <andythenorth> due to large vehicles unloading
13:51:39 <frosch123> in ottd context i classify all gui things as easy, compared to the insanely interlinked game mechanics :)
13:53:05 <Eearslya> Adding a scroll bar to local authority? Seems simple enough, yes
13:54:37 <frosch123> scrollbar would be harder :p i thought just make the window scale correctly
13:55:21 <frosch123> otoh, the space the ratings take compared to the town actions under it... :p
13:55:28 <frosch123> maybe a scrollbar is not that bad
13:55:50 <frosch123> though it may raise the question for sorting
13:56:18 <Eearslya> What's it organized by now? ID?
13:56:49 <frosch123> which is not that bad, because likely all places use the sorting
13:57:04 <frosch123> but if you own company is at the bottom, it may be annoying to scroll all the time
13:57:53 <frosch123> maybe sorting is too much, maybe only put the local company to the top
13:57:59 <frosch123> your turn to get creative :p
13:58:09 <Eearslya> So, the two options I see are to shrink the font to match the actions area, or scrollbar.
13:58:24 <frosch123> there is only one front size
13:58:36 <frosch123> you can either make the panel autosize to always be big enough
13:58:46 <Eearslya> Really? I can swear the text below looks smaller. Huh.
13:59:13 <frosch123> technically there are 4 font sizes in ottd, but there is one main font
13:59:44 <Eearslya> Really glad I don't play in 800x600 myself, gotta say
14:00:14 <Eearslya> Even at 1080 I end up with a somewhat cluttered UI
14:01:43 <Alberth> 800x600 was pre-openttd era :)
14:02:46 <frosch123> if you make the font big enough, you can turn it into 80x25 again :)
14:06:21 <andythenorth> adjust the station UI so it fits on my screen with 2x UI Zoom? o_O
14:06:24 <andythenorth> or make it shadable
14:09:16 <andythenorth> they are set manually at the moment, it should be done automatically, per economy on basis of supplied cargos :P
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14:12:55 <Alberth> or a check that some guard exists
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14:46:54 <Eearslya> What are the .sq files?
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14:54:46 <drac_boy> some of a long night for me heh :->
14:56:02 <andythenorth> meh, do we need to support IE 8 for FIRS docs?
14:59:13 <Wolf01> they want to do them cool, and cool means browser compatibility
14:59:49 <drac_boy> aren't docs supposed to just be text so browsers doesn't really apply?
15:00:32 <Wolf01> firs is too complex to be just text
15:02:19 <andythenorth> where are the docs that say docs are supposed to be text?
15:02:23 <andythenorth> have you got a link?
15:02:26 <andythenorth> is there a spec?
15:12:49 <andythenorth> ‘diamonds’ or ‘precious metals’?
15:12:55 <andythenorth> this is somewhat Africa, ish
15:13:03 <andythenorth> so it could also be gold, platinum, rare earths
15:13:44 <Wolf01> so you can put in a "magnets industry" too
15:14:03 <Wolf01> and a full "electronic" chain
15:14:30 <Wolf01> which ends up to delivering smartphones to population
15:14:59 <drac_boy> wolf01 the only silly question is..how many phones are made of gold? :)
15:15:05 <drac_boy> otherwise yeah I like the idea too perhaps
15:15:21 <Eearslya> Gold is extremely common in electronic circuitry
15:15:31 <Wolf01> almost all have some gold plated parts to get rid of oxidation
15:15:33 <drac_boy> earslya..but 1 bar of gold per phone? I dunno
15:16:12 <drac_boy> admittly I know htc used to make a diamond studded phone case once (I dunno if it was all real tho but the price was high)
15:16:32 <Eearslya> frosch: you weren't kidding, scrollbars are a bit of a headache
15:17:10 <drac_boy> either way I guess for something like ttdxp .. 'precious metals' might be better to avoid confusion with the mine>bank diamond cargo in vanilla industries
15:17:59 <Eearslya> There's a diamond mine in vanilla?
15:19:43 <Eearslya> Ah; never played anything but temperate, that'd explain it
15:19:56 <drac_boy> why only temperate? just curious :)
15:20:11 <Eearslya> Becuase it's default? XD
15:20:18 <drac_boy> nope theres four defaults
15:20:35 <Eearslya> Not really an actual reason that I use it, it's just what I'm used to I guess
15:20:40 <Alberth> default is all 4 climates :)
15:20:45 <drac_boy> yeah ok, was only asking anyway
15:21:02 <Alberth> different climates make quite different game play, you should try them all :)
15:21:36 <Eearslya> I really need to spend more than a few hours on a save file, too
15:21:47 <Alberth> Eearslya: :o you fixed the vehicle sell hover thingie, great! I just sufficiently annoyed to start doing it :p
15:22:12 <Eearslya> XD Yeah, and now I'm trying to add a scrollbar to local authority ratings
15:22:38 <frosch> way more explotive than gold or diamonds
15:22:51 <drac_boy> eearslya what sort of trains do you usually run or it always varies?
15:22:57 <Alberth> much more controversal too
15:23:22 <andythenorth> ivory is not mined :P
15:23:43 <andythenorth> I just don’t have the heart to make evil economies :D
15:23:55 <andythenorth> there are so many possibilities though
15:23:56 <frosch> frosch: add ivory, ebony and piano cargos :p
15:24:21 <Eearslya> drac_boy: Like I said, I've never spent a lot of time on a single save, so the trains I make are usually just simple end-to-end lines
15:24:52 <Eearslya> I've wanted to try the mainline strategy one of these days
15:25:29 <frosch> why did i say that to myself?
15:25:54 <andythenorth> losing your mind
15:25:54 <frosch> the missing numbers confuse me maybe
15:26:02 <andythenorth> I can’t parse frosch
15:26:08 <andythenorth> it looks all wrong
15:26:38 *** frosch is now known as frosch123
15:28:40 <drac_boy> eearslya well mine are often runs-on-occassion mixed trains with the solid coal/etc in the mix once in a while .. and you don't want know about my stations (its something ottd still wouldn't support as well last I checked)
15:31:42 <drac_boy> alberth what do you really think of the 4th climate anyway?
15:32:20 <Alberth> I think it is one of the better industry climates
15:32:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: fixed the edge tooltips, and the background graph tooltip :)
15:32:34 * andythenorth is feeling smug :P
15:32:47 <andythenorth> _this_ kind of stuff is why it’s all in python, not raw nml
15:32:49 <Alberth> too bad most people are stuck in temperate though :(
15:33:02 <andythenorth> Total Toyland Replacement
15:33:08 <andythenorth> is a thing I would do if I lived long enough
15:33:42 <andythenorth> I would keep it fantasy
15:33:54 <Alberth> it needs much more love
15:34:11 <andythenorth> V453000 didn’t go far enough with Yeti
15:34:17 <Wolf01> don't dare to replace toyland, it's my favourite climate
15:34:27 <andythenorth> I would make a world based on esoteric bits of pop culture
15:34:32 <andythenorth> he started well with the Yetis
15:34:38 <drac_boy> alberth heh well I don't use temperate much at all unless I'm interested in historic heavy freights (aka dbsetxl)
15:35:01 <Zuu> Eearslya: AIs and GSs are written in a language called Squirrel.
15:35:18 <Alberth> squirrel 2, to be precise :)
15:35:24 <andythenorth> so will I replace Diamonds in FIRS with Precious Metals, or is that just dumb?
15:35:38 <Zuu> GS = Game Script have an API to highlight any button in the user interface. So when you add/remove buttons, there is a script included in OpenTTD source that you run to re-generate the .sq files.
15:35:58 <drac_boy> andy...what will the banks receive then if its not diamonds?
15:35:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: the latter :)
15:35:59 <Zuu> Those files need re-generation also if you change the API for scripts as well.
15:36:18 <andythenorth> there are no banks, so that’s moot
15:36:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: can I add gold, in the same economy? :P
15:36:39 <Alberth> drac_boy: like banks receive raw diamonds :p
15:36:45 <drac_boy> andy..then what are the gold vans supposed to carry?
15:37:03 <drac_boy> (if you really want to I guess you could reclassify them for GOOD even although that may look weird)
15:37:04 <andythenorth> I feel like we might be talking at cross purposes somehow
15:37:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: sure, ogfx+industries allows diamond+gold+valueables
15:37:20 <andythenorth> ‘valuables mine'
15:37:56 <andythenorth> ach, I’ll just put a bauxite mine in I guess
15:38:01 <andythenorth> I want one more extractive cargo
15:38:15 <drac_boy> bauxite could make steel anyway so that works
15:38:39 <andythenorth> there is no steel
15:39:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: why no ivory hunting yard?
15:40:15 <andythenorth> same reason as no arms dealer
15:40:21 <andythenorth> nor people smuggler
15:40:26 <andythenorth> nor refugee camp
15:40:48 <andythenorth> although there is a lot of use of child labour in diamond mining, so eh
15:40:54 <andythenorth> ethics are selective apparently
15:40:57 <frosch123> i think diamonds is enough for an valueable ore
15:41:07 <frosch123> rahter add some useful material
15:41:12 <andythenorth> you had the ‘waste’ idea?
15:41:22 <frosch123> waste was an import cargo
15:41:43 <frosch123> something which is imported, but has no real destination
15:41:59 <frosch123> instead you can dump it at mines or sea based industries
15:42:38 <frosch123> it's supposed to make you feel bad :)
15:45:05 <frosch123> can we find some ore that would have a different mine appearance
15:45:18 <andythenorth> like nitrates? o_O
15:46:23 <frosch123> hmm, what's the difference between kurtz and basic tropic
15:46:29 <frosch123> i feel they are converging
15:46:46 <andythenorth> that is a problem yes
15:46:58 <andythenorth> primarily, kurtz is much larger, more like FIRS
15:47:08 <andythenorth> and about half the chains have to be player-constructed
15:47:24 <andythenorth> the aim is to switch from export to export + basic manufacturing
15:47:38 <andythenorth> it imposes a play style, but Other Economies Are Available :)
15:47:54 <Eearslya> Welp, turns out the fix for this issue is..a hundred times simpler than what I was going for.
15:47:57 <andythenorth> it needs Busy Bee or SV to drive it
15:48:13 <frosch123> hmm, lead is just black, is it? to much like coal
15:48:37 <Eearslya> Lead could be a dark purple
15:48:39 <andythenorth> phosphate is a possible choice, it can replace clay in cement, and it would fit a planned Canadian economy too
15:48:52 <andythenorth> phosphate mine could be a few diggers :P
15:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> how's that different from any other mine?
15:51:32 <Eearslya> frosch123: Turns out the authority ratings already had code to force itself to be large enough to fit..But because it was being rendered at the bottom of the screen, its resize was getting clamped. Turning that off is way easier than adding a scrollbar XD
15:53:29 <Eddi|zuHause> just recolour the sand pit and take the water out?
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16:00:37 <andythenorth> phosphate just likes like nitrates though
16:07:51 <frosch123> stuff with other colours is nice
16:08:15 <andythenorth> maybe I should just play the economy :P
16:08:36 <frosch123> but yes, it sounds like more fertilizer
16:08:47 <frosch123> some electronic cargo may be nicer
16:08:59 <frosch123> rare earth is not that bad
16:10:49 <andythenorth> ‘rare earth mine’?
16:12:13 <andythenorth> mostly china, it seems
16:13:52 <andythenorth> platinum? 100t per year?
16:29:19 <Eearslya> Add ALL the industries!
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16:33:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: uranium is too ivory?
16:36:36 <Eearslya> Alberth: I think you mean 3200
16:41:00 <andythenorth> uranium is possible
16:41:22 <andythenorth> as is salt, soda ash, a bunch of minerals :)
16:41:26 <andythenorth> I could just put gold in :P
16:41:35 <andythenorth> gold is annoying, because it’s low volume :)
16:43:37 <andythenorth> what transports uranium? o_O
16:43:44 <Alberth> nah, not in openttd :)
16:44:12 <Eearslya> Just make every tile be an industry, problem solved
16:45:21 <Alberth> number of industries is not a problem, as long as you have not more than 64 types of them
16:45:59 <Alberth> but euhm, some room for rail tracks would be nice :)
16:52:34 <andythenorth> I could do cocoa
16:52:42 <andythenorth> it’s a bit similar to coffee though
16:52:55 <andythenorth> for OpenTTD purposes
16:55:34 <Eearslya> Cocoa could be coffee for toyland
16:57:36 <Alberth> toyland needs more magical cargoes, like magic, sprinkles, and stuff
16:58:49 <Eearslya> Magic could feed into a wand factory :D
17:04:42 <andythenorth> christmas lights
17:05:42 <Wolf01> mmmh, could somebody help me? (XNA graphics) i'm trying to draw sprites in different layers with a single pass of the sprite batch, but it only draws the last layer used
17:06:57 <Eearslya> you could try and tweak the pixel opacity on the omega layer of the--I have no idea what you're doing
17:10:12 <Mazur> Joy buzzers, also useful as feminine products.
17:24:06 <Alberth> so many nice cargoes to tranport :)
17:27:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: natual uranium is not that dangerous
17:27:28 <frosch123> but not particulary radioactive before enrichment
17:27:36 <frosch123> so, i guess like copper?
17:27:58 <andythenorth> I think I’m going to put gold in
17:28:05 <andythenorth> it’s the major west african export by value :P
17:28:10 <andythenorth> and I don’t have to draw anything
17:29:11 <andythenorth> it comes to about the same, in terms of quantities and game effect :)
17:32:00 <Wolf01> mmmh, suddenly it works without changes (i just reverted the changes i made because i found they didn't work as expected)
17:34:33 <Wolf01> i just changed the background from Color.Black to Color.White and to black again just to check if it was a problem of the renderer...
17:35:35 <Alberth> you triggered a recompilation of some critical file?
17:36:41 <Wolf01> i don't think so, i was working on the same 2 classes
17:37:41 <Wolf01> other changes were shown, i doubt it is so stupid to compile only half of a class
17:39:17 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 5 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
17:39:56 <Wolf01> but i found that drawing a rectangle as a background instead of just clearing the render target doesn't work
17:41:53 <Wolf01> but it crashed just when preparing a 1x1 black texture, after i removed the code it worked :|
17:42:18 <__ln__> maybe you should call Bjarni and ask for hints
17:43:20 <Wolf01> it seem that nobody knows the right procedure to summon him, and i don't want to lose a leg and an arm to try
17:44:36 <__ln__> it's not like his home address and phone number isn't online
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18:24:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: Hopes and Impediments GS? (yeah FIRS specific, eh)
18:25:03 <andythenorth> in a number of cities, build industries producing Food and Building Materials
18:25:07 <andythenorth> transport x per year
18:25:30 <andythenorth> + it messes with you occasionally, by destroying industries, or routes, or confiscating your money
18:38:21 <frosch123> i think award-driven gs are better than punishment-driven gs :p
18:39:53 <Alberth> indeed, I'd play with it, until the first time it messes with me
18:40:07 <andythenorth> do you two have disasters disabled?
18:40:30 <frosch123> service industry well, and another may pop up
18:40:32 <Alberth> mostly due to the big ufo thing
18:40:47 <andythenorth> subsidence is the one that annoys me :P
18:40:54 <frosch123> starting industries only at sea
18:41:06 <andythenorth> I do want to do that
18:41:18 <andythenorth> but for a North American economy
18:41:27 <andythenorth> maybe it works for African / Post-Colonial too
18:42:16 <andythenorth> I would have it build towns also, maybe that’s an optional parameter though
18:42:29 <Eearslya> I always play with disasters and breakdowns off
18:42:30 <andythenorth> more generic, configurable GS
18:43:05 * andythenorth wonders who should control industry placement, FIRS or GS :P
18:43:09 <Alberth> breakdowns off is too easy :)
18:43:17 <andythenorth> FIRS has limited control, GS has limited knowledge of industry :P
18:44:05 <Taede> can firs supply details about industries to gs?
18:44:13 <andythenorth> no communication
18:44:21 <sim-al2> I've always wondered what CS was thinking with breakdowns in the orginal...
18:44:30 <andythenorth> nvm, the map can be whatever the map is
18:44:43 <frosch123> sim-al2: same as with slopes?
18:44:49 <Taede> as firs will need to do it anyway when there is no gs
18:45:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: what would be industry specific?
18:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27447 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-15 18:45:11 +0100 )
18:45:22 <frosch123> the life_type information was enough for sv
18:45:23 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24 <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
18:45:38 <frosch123> can you give examples?
18:45:50 <frosch123> what would a gs do with placement for specific industries?
18:45:54 <andythenorth> I am setting it by probability currently, for H+I
18:46:20 <sim-al2> frosch123: I admit I haven't actually played the orginal, but since vanilla OTTD is compatiable, I assume the slope and curve model behaved the same?
18:46:22 <andythenorth> so farms growing export crops, plus copper, diamond mines are available widely at game start
18:46:41 <andythenorth> industry producing non-export cargos are very limited, and have to be funded
18:46:58 <frosch123> sim-al2: there are two accerlation models in ottd for trains: "original" (i think still the default), and "realistic
18:47:03 <andythenorth> it’s easy to control by probability, but I don’t bother about, e.g. placing most near coast or whatever
18:47:10 <frosch123> the original one baiscally says "never build on any slope ever"
18:47:21 <andythenorth> who knows if there’s even coast :P
18:47:54 <andythenorth> so that’s one issue (industries placed at map gen time)
18:48:02 <andythenorth> the other is which industries to open new instances of
18:48:03 <sim-al2> Yeah, I played the orgnial acceleration model for a few minutes and was so confused I never have played with it again :)
18:55:15 <Zuu> NewGRF -> GS will not work other than that NewGRF could set attributes to objects they supply OpenTTD which the GS could read via GS APIs.
18:55:35 <Zuu> Callbacks in GS cannot really exist. NewGRF could at best trigger an event being sent to the GS.
18:56:11 <Zuu> GS ::Save() being an exception for a callback that we do have though. :-)
18:56:29 <Zuu> With problems of some AIs/GSs taking too long to save.
19:02:08 <Wolf01> bah, i give up... now an entire tile category is not showing up while all the others do :|
19:02:49 <andythenorth> Zuu: don’t discount the production change :)
19:03:10 <andythenorth> (1) it offers GS a way to reward player with increased production (2) it can control closures (iirc)
19:03:47 <Alberth> frosch123: orignal TTD didn't have freight weight multiplier :)
19:04:01 <andythenorth> it just happened in summer when I was away a lot, so I never thought about it since :)
19:06:26 <Zuu> There may be other GS ideas that make better use of it perhaps along with a more competent NewGRF than IMessengerNewGRF. But the one I made was not adding much over FIRS supplies.
19:09:08 <andythenorth> no, because it’s driven by player actions :)
19:09:29 <andythenorth> my idea (how I don’t know) is to have it driven more by the GS narrative
19:09:48 <andythenorth> FIRS networks are very stable and static once you get them established
19:10:02 <andythenorth> original TTD messes with you more, which is desirable on small maps
19:10:50 <Zuu> Speaking of that, I liked some forum guy trying to make a more storry telling map based on a world map scenario + GS rules. IIRC that user wanted the winning condition to be building two oil refineries.
19:13:08 <Zuu> So you want an Economy GS that mess with production levels?
19:14:00 <Zuu> That is better then the TTD logic that you somehow have disabled(?) in FIRS?
19:17:10 <Alberth> station rating and industry production change is fully in the hands of an industry newgrf
19:18:20 <frosch123> not sure whether you can say that station rating is really in the hands of newgrf :p
19:18:23 <Alberth> but newgrf lacks overview of the world, so cannot really decide eg building new industries, or change of production
19:25:37 <andythenorth> with GS, industries could respond to all kinds of things
19:25:52 <andythenorth> whereas with newgrf, it’s pretty much limited to cargo delivery
19:26:05 <andythenorth> so for example (lame example), electricity could be faked
19:26:31 <andythenorth> generating power in a town could double industry production there
19:27:02 <andythenorth> actually that would fit well for the economy I am working on :o
19:27:21 <andythenorth> and provide a valid excuse for ‘do nothing’ industries like wind farms and hydro-plants
19:28:19 <Zuu> In Productive Bee, completeing a town goal, improves production of primary industries of that town. Completing a industry goal upgrade the efficentcy of the destination industry.
19:28:25 <andythenorth> will your patch be in OpenTTD 1.6? o_O
19:28:34 * andythenorth considers rewriting part of FIRS to work better with it
19:28:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: remember town-based newgrf persistent storage? :)
19:29:03 <frosch123> it's actually implemented
19:29:11 <frosch123> you can do powerplants with that
19:29:23 <andythenorth> I just never did :P
19:29:36 <andythenorth> has *anybody* done anything with town storage? o_O
19:30:03 <Zuu> Depends on if I find time and motivation to work on it.
19:30:14 <frosch123> just like noone uses extended action1 or new capacity multipliers
19:30:40 <_dp_> used it to hide some data in savegame without breaking compatibility :)
19:31:47 <Zuu> _dp_: I looked at your FS#6378 town growth patch. But it takes some time to grasp. :-)
19:32:11 <_dp_> well, I tried my best to explain)
19:32:32 <andythenorth> I think, if I went looking in transcripts, I was told that using town storage for electricity was a monstrous fragile hack
19:32:39 <andythenorth> “and I should know better” :P
20:10:58 <Alberth> wouldn't that be short distance only?
20:11:13 <Alberth> assuming copper should stay liquid?
20:15:38 <Zuu> _dp_: btw I second your idea of Markdown on flyspray. But I would not set my hopes too high.
20:22:03 <greeter> just switched to 32 bit graphics. what an improvement
20:24:33 <Alberth> Eearslya: you forgot to fix the multi-sell vehicle button
20:25:16 <Eearslya> Alberth: But you don't drag vehicles onto that button
20:25:43 <Eearslya> who drags a single vehicle onto the button to sell all the vehicles in the depot
20:25:44 <Alberth> it sells the wagin or engine, and everything after it
20:26:43 <Eearslya> Well I need to do math homework first
20:27:17 <Alberth> math hoemwork is much more important :)
20:27:42 <frosch123> don't you do that by ctrl?
20:29:21 <_dp_> Zuu, + TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS / 2 is for rounding to nearest instead of rounding down, but about +1 you may be right, let me think a bit
20:30:10 <frosch123> maybe you can use RoundDivSU
20:30:22 <_dp_> Zuu, ah, here you get it: if (growth_rate > 0) growth_rate--;
20:30:39 <_dp_> just had to do it separately coz of unsigned
20:30:59 <frosch123> Alberth: nevermind, got confused :)
20:31:59 * andythenorth invents a generic cargo that might be silly, but solves me a bunch of problems
20:32:02 <andythenorth> industrial minerals
20:33:12 <_dp_> yeah, RoundDivSU is probably fine too. Though it looks a bit fishy for a=0
20:33:16 <Zuu> _dp_: Oh yea I forgot to examinate :5 for the -1.
20:33:47 <Alberth> andythenorth: double Chinook diesel arrived, great train :)
20:34:58 <andythenorth> I am favouring ‘this engine is just the right size’
20:35:25 <andythenorth> and not having to build up multiples, unless you have silly freight weight multiplier
20:35:38 <Zuu> _dp_: Isn't RoundDivSU always going to yield 0 when a is 0?
20:35:49 <andythenorth> also in the UK, a unit of that engine is a Chopper, so it’s a terrible pun also
20:35:55 <Alberth> 4, but short train :)
20:37:13 <andythenorth> hmm, newgrf wiki knows Potash cargo already
20:37:21 <andythenorth> but I think I want something more generic
20:38:36 <_dp_> Zuu, well, mb it is but it's hard to tell on a first glance coz it's going in < 0 branch
20:39:22 <andythenorth> label for Industrial Minerals?
20:39:33 <andythenorth> shame InMin is too long :P
20:39:57 <Zuu> Yep, but if b is say 100, then in the top you get (0 - (100-1)/2) = (0 - 99/2) = (0 - 48). Then divide it by 100, and you get 0.
20:40:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess better go for GOLD
20:40:23 <_dp_> Zuu, yy, now I see it too
20:40:26 <Zuu> No matter how lange be is, the top part of the division is gonig to be less than the bottom part.
20:41:04 <andythenorth> can’t make cement from GOLD :)
20:41:20 <frosch123> noone will know what industrial minerals is
20:41:29 <Zuu> I'm not sure I would have implemented that function that way though. But it seem to handle a=0.
20:41:37 <andythenorth> it’s almost just ‘stuff’ :P
20:41:45 <andythenorth> it comes from a ‘mine'
20:41:57 <frosch123> picking an existing cargo label at random would be better :p
20:42:32 <frosch123> Zuu: a=0 works for both the upper and lower case
20:42:58 <Zuu> Anyway thanks for explaining the formula thingy. Appears your formula is sound. Then if it should be like you wrote it or using RoundDivSU is another question. I didn't even knew RoundivSU existed before you told me.
20:43:50 <andythenorth> it’s all the things
20:44:01 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, but with a>=0 would be a bit more clean imo. very minor thing though
20:44:18 <Zuu> One point for keeping it as _db_ did it is it won't do unsigned => signed conversion.
20:45:59 <_dp_> actually, there is other flaw in RoundDivSU, it accepts uint b but instanly butchers it with conversion to int)
20:46:24 <frosch123> are you sure you know how uint and int work?
20:46:41 <_dp_> I suspect it's to disallow calling it with b<0 but assert would probably be better there
20:47:00 <frosch123> it's said in the very description that a is signed, and b is unsigned
20:47:26 <frosch123> for a signed b it would be way more complicated
20:47:47 <frosch123> your would need +1 instead of -1
20:48:25 <_dp_> ok, nvm, it can overflow in + anyway, there is just no good way of fighting it in C I guess
20:50:47 <andythenorth> industrial minerals could be secondary cargo at clay pit and copper ore mine
20:57:51 <Zuu> _dp_: TOWN_GROW_RATE_NORMAL is a new special value that can be sent to CmdTownGrowthRate, thus you should include it in doxygen comment for p2 where it says the possible values p2 can take.
20:58:28 <frosch123> does it need any compatibility scripts?
20:58:39 <frosch123> savegame conversion?
20:59:13 <_dp_> Zuu, it's not new, I just changed it value to fit in uint16
20:59:42 <Zuu> Well, then it is an old flaw of the doxygen comment. :-)
21:01:25 <_dp_> frosch123, definitely not savegame and don't think it needs compatibility either
21:01:40 <Zuu> Maybe academic, but personally I would call it "growth interval" rather than "growth rate".
21:02:02 <Zuu> But then the API is already GrowthRate and may be too late to change.
21:02:26 <Zuu> Or at least out of the scope of this patch.
21:03:53 <_dp_> frosch123, though it probably needs savegame version bump
21:06:42 <frosch123> if there is no savegame conversion, it also needs no version bump
21:06:44 <andythenorth> if my InMin hack is unacceptable, I’ll have to fix the actual problems :P
21:07:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: switch to iron horse again
21:07:37 <frosch123> InMin is seriously stupid :p
21:07:39 <andythenorth> clay bothers me for this african economy
21:07:57 <andythenorth> apparently, who’d have thought, iron ore or bauxite are frequently used in cement manufacture
21:08:02 <andythenorth> it’s like an education, OpenTTD
21:08:08 <andythenorth> maybe I don’t need clay
21:08:18 <andythenorth> ‘but people will find it weird andythenorth'
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21:12:27 <_dp_> frosch123, nah, it's tricky, it introduces new special value for growth_rate, it doesn't need conversion and can't be deduced anyway, but needs version bump to disallow reading new saves with old versions that will treat it as regular value instead of special
21:13:10 <Zuu> Hmm so the point of TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED is that it is a large number which the growth_rate will be set to so that the TwonTickHandler will set grow_counter this large number if the counter get down to zero before a 'normal' growth_rate has been calculated?
21:13:30 <frosch123> _dp_: noone uses that special value
21:13:46 <andythenorth> iron ore, never gets boring, let’s add that
21:13:51 <andythenorth> it’s in most other economies :P
21:14:13 <frosch123> that's why i never understood that patch :p
21:15:14 <Zuu> Yeah it is a bit strange that the growth code is not changed to check for TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED. But it beeing a very large number seem to make it work anyway.
21:17:36 <andythenorth> hmm, this economy will work well with NCG, if I can get the goals to be building materials and food
21:19:29 <_dp_> Zuu, nah, it's just a special value to indicate that growth_rate is not calulated yet, and it only appears when town is not growing (so tick handler has nothing to do with it)
21:20:42 <_dp_> frosch123, what do you mean noone? it can happen, though is not very likely so probably nobody will notice a bug
21:22:33 <Zuu> Oh I see your Cmd calls UpdateTownGrowRate. I though it was called eventually some time in the future.
21:23:44 <frosch123> _dp_: that value is used nowhere
21:24:27 <frosch123> UpdateTownGrowRate rassigned growth_rate before anyone uses it
21:25:08 <frosch123> i think all that the patch changes is changing some rounding from rounding-down to rounding nearest in the api part
21:25:09 <_dp_> no, UpdateTownGrowRate doesn't update rate if town is not growing
21:25:20 <_dp_> and that's the whole reason for that undef value
21:25:21 <frosch123> i think the changes in town_cmd.cpp do nothing at all
21:26:05 <_dp_> it only matters when someone uses gs to change rate while town is not growing
21:27:57 <_dp_> frosch123, and you're completely wrong assuming it only changes rounding
21:28:05 <_dp_> it changes a lot of small things
21:31:01 <Zuu> Oh.. UpdateTownGrowRate can sometimes by random fail to set growth_rate. So then after the Cmd is completed, growth_rate will be left at TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED
21:31:18 <frosch123> ok, if the town is not growing because of preconditions, it changes the api to return a larget GetGrowthRate instead of a very small one
21:31:23 <frosch123> both look equally wrong to me
21:32:07 <frosch123> don't you rather want to change UpdateTownGrowRate, so that it always computes a growth_rate?
21:32:23 <frosch123> instead of leaving a random (though fixed) value in it?
21:32:30 <Zuu> MaybeUpdateTownGrowRate should not by some random return when growth_rate == TOWN_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED?
21:32:47 <_dp_> frosch123, it isn't about GetGrowthRate, it's all about SetGrowthRate, but you have a point there, I didn't think of what get will be returning
21:33:46 <Zuu> I haven't got to the GetGrowthRate yet, but the main ponit of the patch as I see it is for GSes that do frequent changes to growth rate.
21:35:33 <_dp_> Zuu, yeah, it's all about gs, you see it right)
21:36:00 <_dp_> frosch123, I'll think of changing UpdateGrowthRate, mb you're right
21:36:08 <Zuu> As in trunk, changing rowth rate resets the grow_counter to growth rate. But with the patch it tries to keep growth progress and even scale it when rate is changed.
21:36:33 <frosch123> i think UpdateTownGrowRate should be split into two functions
21:36:38 <frosch123> a separate GetNormalGrowthRate
21:36:42 <_dp_> frosch123, didn't consider it as I was trying to fix GS and not dig deep in town growing mechanics)
21:36:46 <Zuu> grow_counter start at growth_rate and then is decreased until it reaches 0 and then town grows.
21:36:47 <frosch123> which the command can use, to assign growth_rate
21:36:59 <frosch123> and scale grow_counter
21:38:22 <frosch123> Zuu: i think _dp_ main problem is, that "old_rate" in CmdTownGrowthRate is incorrect, if the previous UpdateTownGrowRate did not compute a growth_rate
21:39:05 <Zuu> Well it will not get to that line, because it check if t>growth_rate != TOWR_GROW_RATE_UNDEFINED
21:39:16 <Zuu> But I second your suggestion as it avoids that situation.
21:39:20 <frosch123> in trunk "old_rate" is mostly 0, in the patched version it would be 0x7FFF
21:39:26 <frosch123> both values are wrong, just in different directions
21:40:16 <Zuu> In the patch if "old_rate" is 0x7FFF it won't scale at all.
21:40:37 <Zuu> It will only check if counter >= p2, and in that case set counter := p2.
21:42:31 <_dp_> hm, ok, din't find any problems with fixing UpdateTownGrowRate instead, I'll update patch then
21:43:05 <frosch123> Zuu: that's the same what trunk does
21:43:30 <frosch123> in trunk 0 is essentially the same as _UNDEFINED
21:44:23 <_dp_> frosch123, Zuu, did you look in examples I included in bug description? they're a bit mess without markdown, but I did them specifically to compare with trunk(or so)
21:45:03 <Zuu> I started looking on them, but then when I started to look at the code it made more sense. :-)
21:48:34 <Zuu> frosch123: Oh I see trunk scales too. I kind of ignored the negative part of the patch.
21:48:48 <Zuu> (negative = rows with a -)
21:49:43 <_dp_> Zuu, btw, looking in test-town-growth-cmd.cpp I included may also help
21:50:14 <Zuu> _db_: when you pass 0 to CmdTownGrowthRate it should reset custom growth rate according to doxygen. Does that happen still with your patch?
21:51:18 <Zuu> With pass, I mean p2 := 0
21:52:48 <_dp_> Zuu, no, missed that, ty, I'll remove that part in next ver of patch
21:54:17 <_dp_> no, not remove, replace 0 with TOWN_GROWTH_NORMAL
21:58:02 <Zuu> Sounds good assuming no code is actually passing 0 to it.
21:59:43 <_dp_> Zuu, it's only used by GS and that part I changed
22:00:24 <_dp_> hm, anyone knows why UpdateTownGrowRate calls SetWindowDirty three times?
22:01:08 <frosch123> once should be enough :)
22:01:51 <_dp_> ok, I'll fix it too then)
22:02:14 <frosch123> it does not matter when SetDirty is called
22:02:21 <frosch123> it marks the screen area dirty
22:02:34 <frosch123> the drawing (an usage of variables) happenes later
22:02:53 <frosch123> so, it is enough to call SetDirty at the beginning, no need to call it at every return
22:03:44 <Eearslya> Alberth: Think I got it done; you want me to make a FS issue or just give you the diff?
22:04:06 <Alberth> please add it to fly spray, I am off to bed soon
22:04:30 <Eearslya> Oh, and FYI, they were right. Holding CTRL while dropping a vehicle on the Sell button will do the same as sell chain
22:05:01 <Alberth> ah, still learning things about openttd :)
22:05:30 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, I suspected that, but hard to tell that none of SetDirty functions rely on that, I'm not very good with gui code :(
22:05:56 <Alberth> also, don't bring scrap metal to iron works, they don't want it :p
22:07:08 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, it's not virtual, that makes it easier)
22:07:09 <andythenorth> yes there are some gameplay facets there :)
22:10:51 <Eearslya> There we are, uploaded and ready for review
22:11:25 <Zuu> _dp_: I'd say it is a general fact for many GUI systems, not just OpenTTD that a "set dirty" command would not actally repaint the screen right ahead.
22:12:15 <Zuu> But if you never dealt with it before it may not be obvious.
22:13:17 <_dp_> Zuu, I know, just being a bit paranoid :)
22:14:16 <Zuu> A portion of paranoidism may be good when programming. :-)
22:15:34 <frosch123> i don't think the difference of InvalidateData and SetDirty is that obvious :p
22:18:00 <Zuu> No, but wasn't the question the difference of calling SetDirty 1 time or 3 times?
22:21:38 <frosch123> yes, but for InvalidateData it would not be the same :p
22:21:51 * andythenorth needs one more cargo
22:21:55 <andythenorth> some kind of valuable export
22:22:00 <andythenorth> but eh, not today
22:22:39 <Zuu> frosch123: Ah. well that is a point.
22:23:36 <Zuu> The doxygen of InvalidateData doesn't make any good on conveying that OnInvalidateData is being called right away. It says "Mark this window's data as invalid (in need of re-computing)"
22:24:34 <Zuu> Though, there is a distinction there between gui_scope true/false in what it does.
22:24:58 <frosch123> the documenation is in InvalidateWindowData :p
22:27:19 <frosch123> it's one of the nastier parts of ottd :)
22:33:32 <_dp_> frosch123, Zuu, with fixed UpdateTownGrowRate I'm considering moving all grow_counter calculation there instead of doing it in CmdTownGrowthRate, what do you think?
22:34:00 <_dp_> it brings up that counter scale question, but at least it will be consistent))
22:34:21 <frosch123> i think always scale is most consistent
22:34:33 <frosch123> it's most robust wrt. to multiple changes imho
22:35:49 <_dp_> well, so be it, doesn't look like it matters much to me anyway
22:35:59 <_dp_> still, there is more than one way to scale :)
22:36:20 <_dp_> ((2 * t->grow_counter + 1) * (p2 + 1)) / (2 * (old_rate + 1)) - 1
22:36:29 <_dp_> ((t->grow_counter + 1) * (p2 + 1) + (old_rate + 1) / 2) / (old_rate + 1) - 1
22:36:46 <_dp_> current is: t->grow_counter * p2 / old_rate
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22:38:09 <Zuu> Eearslya: Wasn't you doing math homework?
22:38:55 <Eearslya> Well yes but at least my math makes sense
22:39:12 <_dp_> it's about that progress uncertainty interval I mention in bug
22:39:41 <_dp_> first formula puts it to lower end of interval, second to the middle iirc
22:39:49 <_dp_> and current is all over it)
22:42:00 <_dp_> also could probably use exact tick value to make it even more complicated xD
22:52:30 <Zuu> That's a good idea. Good night.
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