IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-14
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00:35:03 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
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01:00:29 <drac_boy> just wondering, any bus fans here?
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01:46:40 <drac_boy> or perhaps at least any train ones :P
02:52:09 * drac_boy throws some random pixel grfs into here before going off
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09:36:16 * andythenorth throws some FIRS off a cliff
09:36:20 <andythenorth> to make new bits
09:37:44 <Supercheese> synthesis via destruction eh?
09:57:01 <andythenorth> industry nml props prob_in_game and prob_random
09:57:08 <andythenorth> do the opposite of what I expected
10:01:30 <Alberth> you learn new stuff all the time :)
10:03:35 <andythenorth> ambiguously named props
10:03:43 <andythenorth> “this is why we have docs” :P
10:04:27 <andythenorth> I expect prob_random to be industries generated in game, because it uses a random industry construction cb
10:05:54 <Alberth> we could add a second name for "prob_random" that better expresses what it does
10:06:24 <andythenorth> I could just fix that in FIRS :P
10:06:52 <Alberth> haha, you copied nml names? :)
10:07:18 <Alberth> own names are always best :p
10:14:46 <andythenorth> controversially, I kept a 1:1 mapping between the property names in FIRS compile, and the existing nml property that they refer t o :P
10:15:01 <andythenorth> Alberth: push that? o_O
10:15:27 <andythenorth> needs a wiki update too, which I can’t do (can’t login)
10:23:18 <Alberth> using nml names means you get docimented names for free :p
10:24:25 <Zuu> I'm here to admit that I accidently wrote a patch for OpenTTD :-)
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10:25:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: how does the added property (see paste) look to you?
10:26:07 <Zuu> When download content window displays a main type of content, it hides all other unless they have been selected for download as dependency.
10:26:28 <Zuu> I though I had a patch for that, but I didn't, so I ended up writing one.
10:27:30 <Alberth> ah, too much time travel confuses the mind about past and future :)
10:28:08 <Zuu> Currently it disables that filter when you use text filter. But I might use both filters instead. If not, it would probably need to alter sort order of type sort to show the main type at top.
10:29:35 <Zuu> I saw now when you open the scenario download content window, the whole screen is full of NewGRFs etc. and no scenario is shown unless you scroll past all of them.
10:33:48 <andythenorth> FIRS does not need ‘intermediate’ economies
10:34:17 * andythenorth makes another big one
10:34:27 <Alberth> filter on type in the download window would be useful I think
10:34:46 <Alberth> invite others to make such economies?
10:35:35 <Zuu> Hmm, current patch doesn't add onything to the GUI. but maybe it should add a drop down that show eg. 'scenario' and is disabled when you open the window from play scenario?
10:35:43 <andythenorth> I think there’s a standing option to patch their own FIRS :)
10:35:46 <Alberth> although we may end up with loads of firs-like industry grfs :)
10:35:51 <andythenorth> which is what GarryG has done for Australia
10:36:03 <andythenorth> and the other one that I forget the name of
10:36:10 <andythenorth> their are two FIRS forks active atm :)
10:36:29 <Alberth> ah yes, the pax thing
10:36:36 <andythenorth> also there / their /s stupid English
10:36:54 <Alberth> never played it, could do that one time
10:37:21 * andythenorth wants to play MP coop game with andythenorth grfs
10:37:28 <Alberth> Zuu: why disable, just select 'scenarios' ?
10:37:44 <andythenorth> but andythenorth grfs are always ‘needs a push build, not on bananas’
10:37:57 <andythenorth> there is a meta problem, I won’t release without testing, and MP testing needs a release :P
10:38:51 <Alberth> make an alpha release, test, make a proper release, play in coop?
10:39:35 <Alberth> we need some sort of design first, I think
10:40:22 <Zuu> Alberth: Perhaps. Though I think I will focus on the actual filtering first. Thinking about rewriting it a bit so it will AND the two filters instead of disable the type filter when you use text search. At least for the newbie scenario case, they may still be confused when looking for scenarios and getting lot of hits when typing 'tutorial', but maybe that will make it too easy for them and dumb it down for all others?
10:40:40 <andythenorth> can’t release any FIRS 2 to bananas until April 2016, because of the OpenTTD industry limit :)
10:40:55 <Alberth> you don't think the "space" problem with firs farms exists because he made a scenario or so? andy?
10:41:20 <andythenorth> I don’t know, I didn’t look further :)
10:42:52 <Alberth> Zuu: it would probably help if it would be marked as "dependency" or "used by X" or so
10:43:27 <Alberth> maybe even in a separate list, but that may be a lot of work
10:43:54 <Alberth> not sure why he compresses it that much, at 2048**2, you have enough space
10:43:56 <Zuu> True, but do we have horisontal space for dependency text?
10:44:29 <andythenorth> maybe he’s trying to get high production
10:45:02 <Alberth> a column with [x] and a tooltip perhaps? no idea about feasibility though
10:45:23 <Alberth> definitely for high production, I'd say
10:46:42 <andythenorth> it may even be FIRS 2
10:46:48 <andythenorth> production numbers look high
10:47:34 <Zuu> It could be done I guess, but probably would need a reverse of ContentInfo::dependencies array or even just a single bit, as that check would be done for all items in the list. As double-looping the whole list on OnInvalidateData may be a bit too much.
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10:51:23 <Alberth> he's in 1.5.2, not firs2
10:52:12 <Alberth> you need that information anyway to display the dependencies, I think
10:56:53 <Zuu> Actually not. First I did a second loop over all content to see if there are any dependencies. This only need to be performed for content with type different from the main content type. But then I found out it is enough for the filter to just include items of the main type or have been selected (manually or auto) for download.
10:57:54 <Zuu> OpenTTD auto-select dependencies before the filtering is done, so it can just check for items being (auto)selected.
10:58:44 <Alberth> just indicating it's a dependency might be enough then?
10:59:07 <Alberth> which is probably equivalent to "not the main type"
10:59:30 <Alberth> until you have newgrfs that depend on other newgrfs :p
11:00:18 <Alberth> don't think it's coded in the download though
11:01:00 <Alberth> maybe it needs a higher level description, sort of groups of things together
11:01:27 <Zuu> Problem is that one item can be selected as dependency for many "main content"
11:02:14 <Zuu> It could use a confirm window which list all you selected and after that all you have as dependency. Or make a third filter that does just that. :-)
11:02:35 <Alberth> hmm, maybe highlight deps if you select some content?
11:02:58 <Zuu> Sort order would of course be to alter the type sort to put 'main type' at top regardles of alphabetical sort.
11:03:16 <Alberth> confirm window would work too, package management update does that too
11:03:48 <Zuu> different bg color? Italics or grey text would be my choice elsewhere, but neither of those I think work in OpenTTD.
11:04:30 <Alberth> hmm, what did I do in "hide vehicle" in buy window?
11:05:25 <Alberth> I added "(hidden)" I think, not sure if I did something else too
11:06:40 <Zuu> They do use grey text color. So perhaps my memory was wrong about grey text and OpenTTd.
11:07:09 <Zuu> Oh, there we had time travel again :-p
11:08:58 <Zuu> Hmm buy window use white text to show selected. DL content window use grey background.
11:09:55 <Alberth> obviously, or things would be too consistent :p
11:10:57 <Zuu> Though, grey background to show selection on a grey window would not work so good. And in a table, it makes sense to highlight using background.
11:12:36 * andythenorth needs more types of port industry
11:13:09 <andythenorth> this is a case where the silly industry random cargo cb could be applied :P
11:13:13 <andythenorth> but that breaks all the things
11:13:14 <Alberth> some container transfer thingie?
11:13:19 <andythenorth> intermodal port?
11:14:10 <andythenorth> similarly, petro-chemical terminal
11:14:35 <Alberth> ah yes, some long pipe sticking out into the sea :)
11:15:06 <andythenorth> the ships still have to dock at coast though :)
11:15:40 <Alberth> stuck with 2 tiles I guess :(
11:15:57 <andythenorth> I think that’s fixable
11:16:10 <Alberth> or make a 2tile pipe :p
11:16:13 <andythenorth> I just don’t know how, and I’m inclined to finish some things before trying new things
11:16:19 <Zuu> When you open a dl content window from eg. play scenario, it seems that network layer make a limited fetch of content. Still it manages to include dependencies. My point is though, disable "non main type filter" when you search in would include some more content (dependencies to visible content), but not the whole list of content available. Would that be cunfusing, and maybe better to not show dependencies until you select something needing it?
11:16:31 <andythenorth> better docks are one of the few worthwhile ponies imho
11:16:44 <Zuu> Or is it from usability just better to not even hide them, but make them grey and sorted to the bottom?
11:17:09 <Alberth> good approach andy, finishing X before doing Y, I still mostly fail at that
11:18:10 <Zuu> Hmm.. maybe I should start with the sort part and see what we get out of that. Postpone filtering until it is clear it is needed too.
11:19:01 <andythenorth> I have at least 4X
11:19:04 <Alberth> I would only add display of dependent things
11:19:18 <andythenorth> adding Y would be overwhelming :P
11:19:41 <Zuu> No sort fix? I mean open the scenario dl content, and you see not a single scenario. :-)
11:20:53 <Alberth> euhm, yeah, I was just answering your last question, I didn't understand it included sort fixing too :)
11:22:03 <Zuu> The sort fix could generate bug reports though. "why is not alphabetical sort working in my game?" :-)
11:22:04 <Alberth> I thought it was only about displaying more things
11:23:00 <Alberth> I am missing something here probably
11:23:06 <Zuu> Showing of A being a dependency is something I probably will postpone.
11:23:23 <Alberth> separate patch would be useful at least
11:23:48 <planetmaker> Alberth, I like that change to the property name
11:23:51 * andythenorth considers a gypsum cargo
11:23:55 <andythenorth> gypsum -> cement plant
11:23:57 <Alberth> alphabetical sort includes type of content? ugh
11:24:10 <andythenorth> but then I have to draw a gypsum mine :P
11:24:21 <Zuu> No, but our type sort is alphabetical sort on the localized type name IIRC
11:24:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: ok, thanks, and good morning :)
11:24:25 <planetmaker> good morning also :)
11:24:55 <Zuu> My change would put the main type on top (or bottom with descending sort) regardless of its localized name.
11:25:09 <Zuu> Hopefully not making too many users think the sort is broken...
11:25:42 <Alberth> filter on type would be less confusing
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11:26:25 <Zuu> As in strict filter, or as in my patch - include dependecies when selected?
11:27:27 <Zuu> And with a bonus question: disable type filter when using text filter?
11:27:40 <Alberth> I often sort on availability (first column) after selecting 'update', to check what will be downloaded
11:27:59 <Alberth> so you could add such meta types, for example
11:28:48 <Alberth> settings window keeps the filter, and adds a warning
11:29:05 <Alberth> in particular when the filter kills all selection
11:29:25 <Zuu> Oh.. I though it disabled the filter. But that explains why no code in the whole OpenTTD yet use the GUIList capability of selecting what filter to be active.
11:30:11 <Alberth> I coded the warning, to avoid bug reports "where is setting X?" :)
11:31:08 <Zuu> Then I follow your example and hide non-main content in the search filter wihch is what I would prefer myself, but though it would go against the settings window.
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11:32:19 <Zuu> Looking up your warning now, it is quite clever in telling you exactly if you need to go to advanced or expert to show all. :-)
11:36:12 <Alberth> warning display is a bit easy to miss, hidden quite well in plain sight :)
11:37:30 <Zuu> Oh.. settings_gui.cpp is not using GUIList.
11:48:15 <Alberth> planetmaker: added the new property to the industries property list, does it need to be added elsewhere?
11:49:08 * andythenorth ponders hydroelectric plant
11:49:28 <andythenorth> deliver building materials to a river site, then it floods a 4x16 section of the map :P
11:49:34 <andythenorth> can’t quite do that in newgrf
11:51:21 <Alberth> make a new disaster :p
11:51:30 <Alberth> cargo-delivery disaster :p
11:51:44 <andythenorth> or cargo delivery failure disaster
11:53:59 <Alberth> hmm, scenario to reconnect cities surrounded by water after a flood, where you have to reclaim land but with a high land-build cost?
11:54:26 <planetmaker> hm, I don't think so - except wiki
11:54:37 <Zuu> Hmm, in GUIList you can supply multiple filter functions. When two filters are to be AND togeather, should I just join that to a single filter function, or in my BuildContentList() apply one filter at a time? The later breaks it a bit in that GUIList will keep track if it has been filtered yet or not. So perhaps just make a single filter function that filter both on text and type.
11:55:25 <Alberth> planetmaker: list of changes in trunk?
11:55:34 <andythenorth> needs a GS that hands out more land for completing goals
11:56:07 <Zuu> That is what the Split scenario does :-)
11:56:37 <Zuu> Complete the goal on the main island, and it will raise a land bridge to a smaller island where there are some bonus industries.
11:57:08 <Alberth> I was thinking you have to pay for the land :p
11:57:10 <Zuu> It was made before GS could construct industries. So you better complete the goal fast enough so the bonus industries doesn't close themself.
11:57:44 <planetmaker> Alberth, for nml that usually is compiled for each release based on the commit messages
11:58:06 <Alberth> ok, sounds easy enough
11:59:44 <Alberth> I just duplicated the text of prob_random mostly, with some added before/after version text, is that enough, does it need "depreceated" or so?
12:00:29 <andythenorth> coal mines in tropic? o_O
12:00:33 * andythenorth teddy bear coding here
12:01:32 * Zuu solved his AND filter he thinks
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12:08:23 <Alberth> gold mines is more likely, isn't it? (or diamond mines)
12:11:40 <andythenorth> loads of coal in congo
12:11:43 <andythenorth> just not mined :)
12:12:01 <andythenorth> with child labour
12:12:09 * andythenorth making alternate reality post-colonial thing now
12:14:34 <Flygon> Now I want a 8192*4096 Africa map :U
12:14:47 <Flygon> It'd be neat to start from 1500 or something, assuming appropriate GRFs
12:18:01 <andythenorth> this will be a big economy, that should be fun to play with Busy Bee
12:18:12 <andythenorth> although Busy Bee needs fixing also :)
12:20:06 <Flygon> Shame it's not possible to have a Civ II style OpenTTD map yet
12:20:09 <Flygon> That'd be kickass as hell
12:20:19 <Flygon> But I understand why that isn't a feature yet
12:20:33 <Flygon> What with the pathfinding, and new method of mapping coordinates required
12:22:21 <Alberth> I wondered whether BB should steer towards re-use of existing infra structure
12:22:46 <andythenorth> interesting idea
12:22:56 <andythenorth> I think that would be Efficient Bee
12:23:09 <andythenorth> or Maximum Utilisation of Capital Assets Bee
12:23:17 <andythenorth> or Ant Trails Bee
12:23:46 <andythenorth> I like that BB makes a mess of my map ;)
12:25:46 <Alberth> it needs more random :p
12:25:58 <Alberth> or even actively steering away from re-use :p
12:26:09 <Zuu> It would be interesting with the idea where GS can enable/disable range of tiles for a player to build on. Then it could expand this range as your company grows forcing you to incrementally grow your allowed area.
12:27:14 <Alberth> there are lots of uses for "collections of tiles", eg indsutry creation limits
12:27:31 <Alberth> ie coalmines in the north
12:28:39 <Alberth> but specifying such areas is tricky, you probably either need to do it in squirrel, or in a scenario, with the new format(?)
12:29:18 <Alberth> another option is to give full control over payment of transported cargo
12:29:56 <Alberth> ie as policy, you only get paid for transport between X and Y according to this and this formula
12:30:12 <andythenorth> can we track cargo source?
12:30:17 <andythenorth> I thought that was infeasible?
12:30:20 <Alberth> people will stop transporting other stuff very quickly :p
12:30:36 <Alberth> cargo-payment code does it, right?
12:31:04 <Alberth> well, do you get paid for transported cargo? :D
12:31:34 <Alberth> but you can't do it for the actual transferred goods, in real time
12:31:53 <Alberth> so you must make a payment policy that openttd follows
12:33:03 <Alberth> hmm, it would collide with cargo-dist
13:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc there was a NewGRF callback for cargo payment
13:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but GS don't work in callbacks...
13:04:38 <andythenorth> it wouldn’t have to collide with cdist
13:04:47 <andythenorth> just build point-point
13:06:21 <Alberth> newgrf would work too, but then you need a GS -> NewGRF connection
13:19:22 <andythenorth> bah I should fix those docs :(
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13:37:26 <Alberth> grain grows in sub-tropic?
13:38:30 <Alberth> I am tempted to add rice, but it's the wrong continent :)
13:38:40 <Alberth> perhaps import grain?
13:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add a Economy.__repr__ function?
13:41:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or use str() at the right place?
13:42:16 <andythenorth> I just used the name string instead and do replace(‘ ’, ‘-’).lower()
13:42:23 <andythenorth> .lower is only for appearance, it’s not needed
13:42:31 <andythenorth> even ‘ ‘ gets %20 but that’s ugly :P
13:42:44 <andythenorth> Alberth: there is rice growing in africa it seems :)
13:44:25 <Zuu> Alberth: Oh, you are not in #openttd.dev. I posted a filter patch there. :-)
13:44:27 <andythenorth> I think I’ll save rice, but it should be included in FIRS
13:45:28 <andythenorth> hmm too many stockyards
13:45:33 <andythenorth> they’re everywhere
13:45:37 <andythenorth> people should eat less meat
13:47:07 <Zuu> If you are interested to read it.
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14:06:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r27443 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 14:06:26 +0100 )
14:06:32 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Negoation in comment was wrong.
14:08:47 <Wolf01> "negoation" is wrong too
14:14:08 <Wolf01> pfff each time i open steam it needs to update almost 6 games :|
14:15:42 <Alberth> luckily it only updates 5.9 games then :)
14:15:50 <andythenorth> I can’t use steam
14:15:59 <andythenorth> I’d rather just not buy games than suffer steam
14:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you can tell it to only update on start of the game...
14:16:15 <andythenorth> I don’t want to enter my password just to play a game
14:16:19 <andythenorth> I don’t want forced updates
14:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i hardly have 8 games in total...
14:16:27 <Wolf01> pfff and when i want to play a game i need to wait for it to update?
14:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could have just steam always running, and never notice the updates until they are already done :p
14:17:22 <Wolf01> i only have 322 (200 installed) and about 120 from bundles to redeem
14:18:20 <Wolf01> also let's play a game, help me to not buy fallout 4 before xmas, __ln__ could play on enemy side if he wants
14:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i actually have 11 games, 2 of which were free and i never even installed/started
14:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no interest in fallout...
14:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually got 3 games for free, but one of them i really played :p
14:19:39 <Wolf01> neither do one of my personalities, but the other 2 want it, so i need support
14:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 vs. 1 is unfair.
14:20:30 <Wolf01> eh, i might need to develop another one personality, but 3 is the perfect number
14:21:24 <Alberth> 1, 2, 3 who needs any other number :)
14:21:39 <Wolf01> one of them is "buy it yesterday!", one "wait at least until xmas" and the last one "no, don't buy it, you'll en up playing it for a ween non stop"
14:22:19 <Wolf01> they are again taking control of my hands at the same time
14:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a really healthy 1300 hours on Europa Universalis IV
14:23:27 <Wolf01> no, i still play skyrim, fallut 3/new vegas, i have about 400 hours build up for each of them
14:23:28 <Alberth> food + coffee at least an hour / day
14:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and i never actually played through a full game
14:24:55 <Wolf01> eh, i'll try to finish at least the main story line for every game
14:26:00 <Wolf01> i played starcraft LotV for the last 4 days and finished the campaign in 2 days
14:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there technically isn't a story in Europa Universalis IV. nor is there really a victory condition. but the game goes from 1444 to 1821 or something
14:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> latest i got so far was 1720-ish
14:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> then it kinda got out of hand as i was winning wars faster than i could integrate territory...
14:29:24 <Zuu> Wolf01: Sorry to confuse you
14:31:23 <Wolf01> np, just pointed out the evidence, one of my personalities is grammar nazi capt. obvious
14:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to put something intentionally misspelled here, but my brain just refuses...
14:38:53 <frosch123> did you watch that for 6 hours?
14:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> at least, not in one piece
14:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you can watch the individual episodes as well ;)
14:40:58 <Wolf01> i think i've seen 2 or 3 episodes, but that 6 hours straight is really too much :P
14:41:45 <Wolf01> also, anime time, i need to see the last 7 episodes
14:45:03 <argoneus> does anyone here want to help me with a group project at uni
14:46:04 <Zuu> Wolf01: I was unsure about the spelling so I only googled it to see that it was not misspelled, but forgot to check I got the right word. :-)
14:46:29 <Alberth> you're looking for a group project?
14:46:46 <argoneus> Alberth: no I already have one
14:46:52 <argoneus> but my teammates are giving me a headache
14:47:08 <Alberth> and you think we are any better :p
14:47:09 <Wolf01> on first sight i was "oh a new english word i didn't know"
14:47:15 <argoneus> Alberth: im pretty sure
14:47:22 <argoneus> one of them got a git merge conflict
14:47:28 <argoneus> and he decided to discard all my code
14:47:36 <argoneus> and rebased the repo
14:47:49 <argoneus> another guy pushed this code
14:47:53 <argoneus> self.max_thread_count = multiprocessing.cpu_count()
14:48:37 <Alberth> you're not making much sense to me, sorry
14:48:55 <argoneus> they think you can only have as many threads as you have cpus
14:49:00 <argoneus> or cpu cores, or logical cpus, w/e
14:49:18 <Alberth> if it's a cpu bound problem, it makes sense
14:49:35 <frosch123> i need a mirror for the graphviz docs
14:49:47 <frosch123> somehow the server is down every second day
14:49:58 <frosch123> hmm, oh, let's use the manpages
14:51:27 <Alberth> my package manager doesn't have graphviz-docs, maybe you have such a package?
14:51:41 <frosch123> "man dot" works for me
14:52:45 <andythenorth> argoneus: who’s project lead? :P
14:52:52 <andythenorth> and then you have politics also :P
14:53:02 <argoneus> frosch123: you can use the magic of internet
14:53:31 <argoneus> andythenorth: we are 6, the project lead is another dude, not me
14:53:40 <argoneus> hes actually decent but hes a huge idea guy
14:53:46 <andythenorth> are you using feature branches?
14:53:54 <argoneus> we agreed to use them
14:54:03 <andythenorth> discarding code for a merge conflict is daft
14:54:21 <andythenorth> otoh, you all have to learn this the hard way
14:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> make a merge war?
14:54:41 <argoneus> he just rebased the repo
14:54:43 <andythenorth> it has taken me 20 years to be approximately competent
14:54:47 <argoneus> it's like my code never existed
14:54:49 <argoneus> it was really awkward
14:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so? you just push again :p
14:54:54 <argoneus> copypasting it from the commit
14:55:06 <andythenorth> so you had commits?
14:55:10 <andythenorth> so go back to that rev
14:55:18 <argoneus> but in the repo itself the commit seemed to be gone
14:55:22 <argoneus> not sure how that works
14:55:25 <argoneus> gitlab showed them properly
14:55:33 <argoneus> but there was no commit deleting my code
14:55:38 <argoneus> it just disappeared into the abyss somehow
14:55:51 <andythenorth> only if he’s rewritten history afaik
14:55:58 <andythenorth> which is daft, dangerous, hostile and stupid
14:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it just means it's somewhere, but not a parent of the current commit
14:56:02 <andythenorth> and rarely works
14:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like an unnamed branch
14:56:23 <argoneus> I just copypasted the files from the web commit
14:56:34 <argoneus> im not a git wizard myself, would probably break things
14:56:40 <argoneus> at least I know not to rewrite history
14:56:45 <andythenorth> how can you see web commits, but not local?
14:56:59 <argoneus> gitlab showed them linearly
14:57:05 <argoneus> but in my repo I couldn't find my commit
14:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> use the hash, luke.
14:57:34 <argoneus> it wasn't that much of a problem
14:57:37 <argoneus> I commit every like 20 lines
14:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so, why are you talking to us, instead of to him?
14:57:58 <Alberth> git is quite dangerous
14:58:17 <andythenorth> some people using git are quite dangerous
14:58:45 <Alberth> git is fine, just don't go near it :p
15:00:00 <Alberth> but yeah, argoneus, as Eddi said, you can talk to us, but it doesn't actually solve much
15:00:39 <Alberth> except telling other about your woes may make you feel better :)
15:02:07 <andythenorth> I could send him peopleware
15:02:34 <andythenorth> most software project problems are people problems
15:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> most people problems are not solved by throwing more software at it
15:03:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: what next?
15:03:54 <frosch123> does it work for you?
15:04:18 <frosch123> i just fixed some links and hoover tooltips
15:04:29 <frosch123> don't know more bugs :)
15:06:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: just push it, I’ll pull :)
15:06:46 <frosch123> let's break devzone :)
15:16:40 <andythenorth> I’ll tweak colours and find a way to add ‘click for larger’ or such
15:17:51 <Eearslya> Understanding the OTTD codebase has been..quite a challenge so far; especially with no experience with vectors..
15:19:39 <Alberth> just a glorified array :)
15:21:08 <Eearslya> Yeah, a lot of C++ things are tripping me up here and there; I've had plenty of experience with plain C, but C++ has so many new features..
15:21:40 <Wolf01> i instead don't understand sprite batches and graphics devices very well
15:21:55 <Alberth> wait until you see a proper c++11 program :p
15:22:26 <Eearslya> Struct inheritance and initialization had me googling for an hour at least
15:23:04 <Alberth> it may be faster to read a c++ book :)
15:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, struct and class is really the same thing
15:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the only difference is public/private if neither is specified
15:24:59 <Wolf01> struct need to be fully initialized via constructor or default values, iirc
15:25:17 <Eearslya> See, I am tempted to read a C++ tutorial or something of the like, but..I'm mainly worried it's going to be 75% things I already know XD
15:25:33 <argoneus> Eearslya: learn java or C# or another language that doesn't butcher OO
15:25:34 <Eearslya> Unless you know of a book for C++ that's specifically targeted to those already proficient in C..
15:25:55 <argoneus> it will help you understand things with an easier syntax
15:25:56 <Eearslya> I'm decent with Java, I did liken the inheritence to Java's 'extend' pretty quickly
15:26:10 <argoneus> C++ has some magic stuff like multiple inheritance
15:26:13 <argoneus> which may or may not be useful
15:26:32 <argoneus> also templates are the best and worst feature of C++
15:26:34 <Eearslya> Unlike Java, which has one inheritance and multiple..implements. Whatever you'd call those.
15:28:14 <argoneus> I can't remember the last time I needed more than one inheritance
15:29:22 <Eearslya> Are 'virtual' functions essentially the same as 'abstract'?
15:29:46 <Alberth> no, "virtual" is what java does by default
15:29:56 <argoneus> virtual means you may override the function iirc
15:30:02 <argoneus> abstract means you have to override it
15:30:04 <Alberth> ie you can re-implement the method in a derived class
15:30:38 <argoneus> which reminds me how horrible C++ is
15:30:49 <argoneus> you want an abstract class?
15:30:49 <Alberth> abstract is class X { void f() = 0 ; }; <-- the "=0" means the function exists, but not in this class
15:31:34 <argoneus> Alberth: add a virtual there
15:31:38 <argoneus> virtual void f() = 0
15:31:45 <argoneus> else... not sure what happens actually
15:31:45 <Alberth> which like java also means you cannot instantiate X
15:31:54 <argoneus> I think that won't even compile
15:32:15 <Alberth> I think it would compile just be very non-usable :p
15:32:17 <Eearslya> Oh boy. Maybe I really should try and find some reading material..
15:32:25 <argoneus> you should learn a good language
15:32:35 <argoneus> that isn't plagued by 30 year old philosophies and deprecated standard libraries
15:32:38 <Eearslya> C and Java don't count?
15:32:52 <argoneus> C won't help you understand object oriented things
15:32:54 <Alberth> argoneus: please, you made that point a few times now, stop it now
15:32:54 <argoneus> which you seem to struggle with
15:33:30 <Eearslya> Well, no, I'm fine with OOP; I was just confused with C++'s syntax of inheritance
15:33:34 <Alberth> argoneus: read c++11 or c++14
15:33:36 <argoneus> Alberth: I just don't get the idea of schools and stuff forcing C++ onto students
15:33:51 <argoneus> when it's a huge mess
15:34:00 <argoneus> e.g. in school we were taught about pointers in C++
15:34:07 <argoneus> thing is, once you go into C++11, suddenly raw pointers are evil
15:34:11 <argoneus> unless they are non-owning
15:34:28 <Alberth> most schools have no clue about languages
15:34:37 <Alberth> but that doesn't mean the language itself is bad
15:34:38 <argoneus> better learn a modern language imo
15:34:42 <argoneus> the language isn't bad
15:34:46 <argoneus> but it lets you do a LOT of bad things
15:34:51 <Alberth> it just means schools need to fix their knowledge
15:35:03 <Alberth> like git, and anything else powerful
15:35:26 <argoneus> with C++ there's like 5 different ways to do everything
15:35:29 <argoneus> and 4 of them are frowned upon
15:35:32 <Eearslya> I don't think C++ is going anywhere for a long time
15:35:50 <argoneus> C++ is a good language that can do most everything you want
15:35:54 <argoneus> that's also the problem with it :D
15:36:11 <Alberth> argoneus: wrong, the philosophy is not to force people into a choice, and different options are good for different use cases
15:36:13 <Wolf01> i never understood pointers vs dots
15:36:29 <argoneus> you mean a->val vs a.val?
15:36:46 <argoneus> one of them is *val and the other is val
15:36:53 <Wolf01> the compiler is smart enough to know when you need a reference or a value, why do you let it to the developer?
15:36:54 <argoneus> *a and the other is a
15:37:10 <Alberth> Wolf01: I agree, it seems a weird thing not to handle automatically
15:37:37 <argoneus> from what I've seen on ##c++
15:37:43 <Alberth> although with operator overloading, it may get messy
15:37:45 <Wolf01> ok, other languages have it too, but is used at function argument level
15:37:48 <argoneus> the latest philosophy seems to do "try to avoid pointers, the stack is large enough"
15:38:34 <Eearslya> How on earth are you expected to avoid pointers entirely?
15:39:02 <argoneus> for (std::vector<MyClass>::const_iterator it = myvec.begin(); it != myvec.end(); it++) { }
15:40:17 <Alberth> so please don't throw in obsolete constructs as argument against the language
15:40:44 <argoneus> iirc there've been arguments against "auto" as wel
15:40:52 <argoneus> when it first came out
15:41:07 <argoneus> that it's hard to tell what it really is
15:41:16 <argoneus> there's also the auto& and auto&& magic and that kind of stuff
15:41:25 <Alberth> nothing that stops you from not using it
15:43:30 <argoneus> the language is not bad
15:43:38 <argoneus> but there's way too many options for a new programmer imo
15:43:53 <argoneus> I see hacky workarounds at uni all the time
15:43:59 <argoneus> things that just should not work but they do
15:44:05 <argoneus> because they forced c++ to make it work
15:44:09 <Alberth> yep, you don't want to use it as first language
15:44:35 <argoneus> I never meant to discourage Eearslya from learning C++
15:44:39 <Eearslya> My first language was..Perl.
15:44:41 <argoneus> I just wanted him to get a good base in a "modern" language
15:45:09 <argoneus> Eearslya: remember how I said that C++ lets you do nasty things?
15:45:16 <argoneus> well, in perl you can do nasty things, with even nastier syntax! :D
15:45:34 <Alberth> like he doesn't know :p
15:45:38 <Eearslya> I have done C++ before, but..Usually when I've done C++ it's been extremely basic, I've never gotten into vectors, inheritances, or anything like that
15:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in perl, you can't do non-nasty things :p
15:46:14 <Eearslya> It also doesn't help, trying to understand OTTD that I'm swimming around in a codebase and I don't know where anything is XD
15:46:47 <Alberth> ag or grep is your friend :)
15:46:50 <argoneus> I just think every programmer should start with C
15:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd argue that noone in here actually knows where EVERYTHING is
15:46:59 <argoneus> and then proceed with something like C# or Java or whatever
15:47:03 <argoneus> before getting into C++
15:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think no programmer should start with C
15:47:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: eh how about doing something on Busy Bee next? o_O
15:47:41 <andythenorth> it is a playground for GS ideas
15:47:46 <argoneus> C teaches you to realize "oh I can't just flail memory around"
15:47:51 <Alberth> Eddi: ha, I don't even know what everything contains exactly :p
15:48:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: what to visualise in busybee using graphviz? :p
15:48:06 <argoneus> because then you open java code
15:48:10 <argoneus> and see new() everywhere on everything
15:48:12 <Alberth> argoneus: euhm, something about pointers being complicated.....?
15:48:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: goals :P
15:48:21 <Eearslya> C is..segfault city, in my experience.
15:48:32 <frosch123> hmm, i don't think i played a single game with busybee
15:48:35 <argoneus> shouldn't every good programmer know how pointers work?
15:48:37 <frosch123> so, i have no idea about it :p
15:48:43 <andythenorth> busybee has a bug currently :P
15:48:44 <argoneus> like every high level language uses pointers transparently
15:48:46 <andythenorth> which gets annoying fast
15:49:00 <Alberth> it's more a lack in features :p
15:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no programmer, good or otherwise, needs to know what pointers are
15:49:12 <argoneus> in java you pass by reference, shouldn't a java programmer know what a reference is?
15:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: especially not a beginner coder
15:49:58 <Alberth> well, in java, he should, as primitive types and non-primitive types are different
15:50:25 <andythenorth> hmm, I need graphviz locally now
15:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that is one of the weirdest things in java, yes.
15:50:50 <argoneus> what do you classify as a beginner coder?
15:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but definitely pretty low on the C-scale of weird language constructs
15:50:57 <argoneus> not understanding loops for example?
15:51:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: i remember my suggestion back then: plan goals ahead and only announce them if they have not been completed after 6 monhts
15:51:14 <argoneus> I've been programming for like 4 years and I still feel like a beginner
15:51:22 <andythenorth> that has quite some latency :)
15:51:38 <andythenorth> it means min. 6 month wait for a new goal after winning one, no?
15:52:22 <andythenorth> I didn’t upgrade macports when I last upgraded OS X
15:52:27 <frosch123> you can keep a stockpile ahead
15:52:40 <andythenorth> now my afternoon will be spent getting graphviz :D
15:53:06 <frosch123> download the source and build yourself? :p
15:53:18 <andythenorth> I should fix macports anyway
15:54:07 <andythenorth> I hate that I have to get macports from sourceforge, and then use sudo with it
15:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a beginner, in this context, would be someone who does not know the effects that a change will have ahead of time, a trial-and-error type approach.
15:54:31 <andythenorth> what could be more evil than giving a sudo password to a binary from sourceforge?
15:54:44 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't fixing a segfault teach you a lot though?
15:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: and C is one of the worst places you would do trial-and-error programming
15:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no, because "Segfault" is not telling you what's wrong.
15:55:23 <argoneus> C errors are........not very good
15:56:02 <Alberth> nah, assembly language without knowing what you're doing is worse :p
15:56:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: nah, they’re old :)
15:59:21 * andythenorth watches macports
15:59:53 <Eearslya> I've been wanting to try and contribute to OTTD which is why I'm trying to familiarize with the codebase..I think I found a good 'things in C++ not in C' page to read, too
16:01:04 <Zuu> I think it shouldn't be so hard to find a C++ book for C programmers. Both languages are fairly common still today and have a long history. And sure there should be web pages on the subject too as you found out.
16:02:50 <argoneus> does ottd even use C++11?
16:03:19 <Zuu> OpenTTD does compile in Visual Studio 2008, so no features not in that compiler are used.
16:03:30 * andythenorth has wondered for a long time about function overloading
16:03:34 <andythenorth> and why that would be sane
16:03:35 <frosch123> we fixed the stuff that failed in c++11
16:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> function overloading makes sense in polymorphic contexts, or templates.
16:05:02 <Zuu> Or for typed variable parameter count.
16:05:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: think of it as a ways to imitate duck typing :p
16:06:03 <frosch123> just that it only works for known types of ducks :p
16:07:45 <andythenorth> subversion port takes a while to arrive :P
16:09:24 <Zuu> And svn is picky about using -R instead of -r for recursive. :-)
16:11:43 <andythenorth> meh ports also locks, can only run one install at once
16:11:51 *** rahtgaz has joined #openttd
16:30:53 <andythenorth> ach, can’t get openttd to find lzma
16:30:59 <andythenorth> or I don’t have a valid lzma port
16:32:24 <andythenorth> it also can’t find zlib or libiculx
16:32:30 <andythenorth> which I have just installed :P
16:41:41 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
16:43:45 <andythenorth> ha ha I’ve broken everything
16:43:57 * drac_boy hands andy a lot of gremlins? :P
16:44:05 <andythenorth> can’t build newgrfs, openttd, nor any work stuff
16:44:11 <andythenorth> python and everything else is now broken
16:45:19 <drac_boy> any good news otherwise?
16:48:24 <drac_boy> heh I dunno if thats good news to andy :)
16:49:13 <andythenorth> hmm openttd compiles again now
16:49:38 <andythenorth> I gave up trying to install ‘only needed ports’ and just restored the old ones
16:52:52 *** Bluelight has joined #openttd
16:57:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r27444 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 16:57:15 +0100 )
16:57:19 <DorpsGek> -Add: When viewing online content of a particular type, hide content of other types unless they have been (auto)selected for download.
17:08:13 <drac_boy> anyway I think I'm going off for a bit for no
17:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> ... silicoid farmers, i think i play this game wrong :p
17:16:38 <Eearslya> Can I get voiced in #openttd.dev?
17:18:09 <frosch123> Eearslya: but you can also just talk here
17:18:19 <frosch123> .dev is only needed when eddi is spamming this channel
17:19:08 <frosch123> there is noone in .dev who isn't here as well
17:23:20 <Eearslya> True. Well, I was looking at trying to fix my first bug (6389) and I'm slightly confused; there's a buffer for the name, 32 characters wide, but the name in the bug report gets cut off at 29; So, minus one for the null terminator, are there 2 bytes of control characters or something of the like?
17:34:44 <andythenorth> most things now have the ports they need, except buildout.python will no longer build, and that’s the only sane way to get python on a mac :(
17:34:56 <andythenorth> also newgrf makefiles are sulking
17:36:27 <frosch123> Eearslya: no idea, maybe some utf8 magic?
17:36:37 <frosch123> i.e. do some letter take more than a byte?
17:36:52 <Eearslya> Is there any reason we can't just bump that to, say, 48? Wouldn't break any compatibility?
17:36:52 <frosch123> anyway, mind that the server uses the same structure
17:37:05 <frosch123> so, changing it in the client won't make it work :p
17:37:26 <andythenorth> and more of those
17:38:15 <andythenorth> ach no mercurial installed
17:38:18 <andythenorth> that might solve that
17:38:31 <Eearslya> ..Is the server actually built seperately? I'm looking at network/core/tcp_content.h..Is that not shared?
17:40:35 <frosch123> ottd uses the same packet type for both udp and tcp packages
17:40:42 <frosch123> udp packages are severely limited in size
17:40:50 <frosch123> unfortunaltely ottd caries that over to tcp
17:41:05 <frosch123> i started a patch to separate that, but didn't finish it :p
17:41:39 <frosch123> Eearslya: the server is at svn://svn.openttd.org/extra/masterserver_updater
17:41:50 <Eearslya> So this is more of a 'feature-not-bug' issue?
17:41:55 <frosch123> the stuff in the "core" directory is shared via svn:external
17:42:18 <frosch123> Eearslya: it's a limitation of the current implementation :)
17:43:19 <frosch123> you can try to explore where the other 3 character are though
17:43:20 <Eearslya> Welp, guess I should find another bug then!
17:43:31 <frosch123> i don't know where the other 3 bytes are used
17:43:49 <Eearslya> Well, assuming it's null-terminated (which it might not be, since it's explicity 32 bytes), there's 2 I have to look for
17:44:21 <Eearslya> I should switch to my PC, bug-searching is horrible without an IDE to jump to declarations and such.
17:44:53 <frosch123> but if the server already truncates it, you will have a hard time to debug that :p
17:45:10 <Eearslya> Here's hoping it doesn't. XD
17:45:52 <Zuu> You could still try to find out why the sever truncates it?
17:47:25 <Eearslya> Well, first thing I'm gonna try is printing out the string byte-by-byte on client side, see if anything is off
17:48:14 <Eearslya> If the client-side string is -actually- truncated at 29 bytes, well..Then I'll have to dig into the server code.
17:48:19 <Zuu> The unique_id of that content is 3841 btw
17:49:00 <Zuu> So all you need is a conditional breakpoint in network_content.cpp on line 65-ish to figure out what is received from the server. :-)
17:50:00 <Zuu> But maybe I shouldn't spoil your debugging because I started on the same bug before reading that you did as well. :-)
17:50:08 <Eearslya> Can MSVC do breakpoints? I've never really used it.. XD
17:50:32 <Zuu> MSVC can do that. I use 2008 edition for OpenTTD. 2015 got even more features and a black theme.
17:51:17 <Zuu> You just click in the left margin in the code editor to create a breakpoint. Then right click to set a condition.
17:52:28 <Zuu> Mind that on some IDEs breakpoints with condition are sloooow, so altering the code to have a compiled if-statement with some dummy code to break at may greatly improve the performance. Not sure how good/bad visual studio is on this matter. Probably not as bad as others. :-)
17:52:54 <Eearslya> Welp, we're about to find out!
17:55:00 <Eearslya> ..Well, that was a pretty easy open-and-shut case.
17:55:23 <Eearslya> They've got some strange UTF-8 apostrophe in the name
17:55:56 <Eearslya> That would account for 2 more bytes than it should
17:58:29 <Zuu> The bananas web interface have maxlength="32" on the name <input>. While I haven't checked the django backend validator, it likely count that UTF-8 character as a single character.
18:00:00 <Eearslya> Which, of course, explains the discrepancy
18:00:14 <Eearslya> Welp, still need to find another bug, then!
18:00:16 <Zuu> Eearslya: If you like to continue your bug hunt experience, please post your findings to the issue on flyspray.
18:02:21 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
18:02:37 <Eearslya> Odd, Flyspray doesn't like my login. Is there a delay between registering and the usernames synchronizing across the services?
18:03:04 <frosch123> no, but you need the confirmation mail
18:03:29 <frosch123> also, where did you register? :p
18:03:36 <frosch123> for example forums are separate
18:03:38 <Eearslya> account.openttd.org, about 5 minutes ago
18:03:47 <frosch123> that one should be fine
18:04:20 <Zuu> Eearslya: Can you log in to other services? Eg. banans, wiki etc?
18:04:33 <andythenorth> ha ha, graphviz works now
18:04:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: i hope the rest did not stop due to that :)
18:05:27 <Eearslya> Yep; bananas and wiki work fine
18:05:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: well, I needed to update all of macports :P
18:06:12 <frosch123> so you will only notice during the next week, that half of everything broke :)
18:06:37 <Eearslya> I wonder if my password has characters Flyspray doesn't like; I just threw in a password from Keepass
18:08:20 <Eearslya> ..Nope, didn't fix it. Odd.
18:13:00 <andythenorth> ho my FIRS repo is broken after installing mercurial
18:13:19 <andythenorth> it reports changed files on some paths, but refuses to recognise those paths for commits
18:15:04 <Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30.
18:18:51 <andythenorth> rm -r * and then revert :P
18:19:25 <Eearslya> There, finally made my comment XP
18:20:55 * Zuu tries to understand #6378.
18:22:04 <Eearslya> That is..a lot of math.
18:22:59 <Zuu> The code blocks (as in Markdown code blocks) are not really math. But it is a lot of text and reasoning in that issue.
18:23:30 <Eearslya> They did attach their own patch for the issue apparently
18:25:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: so the cargoflow graph colours are hard-coded in the template? :)
18:25:37 <frosch123> yes, i derive them from the life_type
18:25:48 <frosch123> also supply cargo ids are specified at the top
18:26:51 <andythenorth> I am going to try and use css-for-svg
18:26:56 <andythenorth> I want to learn it, for other reasons
18:28:12 <Zuu> I made a web game where I used svg and angular directives to render the game screen. Didn't use of css for svg there though. As the whole svg was inline in the html template and parameterized by angular.
18:31:10 <Eearslya> Man, there's really not a lot of bugs to take on practically..
18:31:54 <andythenorth> the game is relatively stable, last time I looked in flyspray, it’s edge cases and hard-to-repro stuff, or platform-specific :)
18:32:27 <Eearslya> Curse the stability!
18:32:34 <Wolf01> <Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30. <- i had that problem on a site, i used a ~60 characters long password and i wasn't able to login anymore, a password reset fixed it :D
18:32:35 <andythenorth> I rarely experience crashes or noticeable bugs in the game, despite changing newgrfs under it constantly
18:33:15 <Eearslya> Wolf01: Yeah, I reset mine to one at 30 characters, works fine now
18:35:43 <Wolf01> andythenorth, you can look at plantuml, it draws in svg too
18:39:29 <andythenorth> you could go all out and try to patch a pony feature :P
18:40:14 <Zuu> Do you have any easy pony requests. Eg that doesn't involve GS -> NewGRF? ;-)
18:40:18 <Wolf01> like daylength or map rotation
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27445 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-14 18:45:11 +0100 )
18:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
18:55:45 <andythenorth> ok so graphviz offers limited control over css styling
18:55:48 <andythenorth> but I shall defeat it
19:05:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: does .dot ever get rendered to anything but svg? Should I preserve the inline styling?
19:06:07 <frosch123> you can also render it to .png, if you want
19:06:16 <frosch123> but then it won't have links
19:06:27 <frosch123> though, actuall,y you can also generate an imagemap in addition to it
19:06:58 <frosch123> anyway, i think svg is better than png :)
19:07:13 <frosch123> don't bother with other formats
19:07:40 <andythenorth> I can remove the fillcolor switch then
19:08:17 <frosch123> can you select different css formats depending on life-type ?
19:08:48 <andythenorth> I am doing it in a brute force way, but es
19:09:22 <frosch123> haha, are you adding a post-processing step after the svg generation? :p
19:09:59 <andythenorth> not that brute force :o
19:10:05 <andythenorth> although it would work
19:10:12 <frosch123> ok, would likely be horrible :)
19:10:42 <andythenorth> pushed, it’s WIP
19:12:48 <frosch123> he, you are generating a css :p
19:13:23 <Alberth> andy generates everything, he'd generate the generator too if it was possible :)
19:14:31 <frosch123> oh, you made the organic ones red?
19:14:42 <frosch123> or only for testing?
19:15:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am one step behind eddi, who does generate the templates iirc :P
19:15:53 <andythenorth> ok I can control text and shape colours, I am happy :)
19:16:05 <andythenorth> now I was going to pick colours from openttd palette for them :)
19:16:27 * andythenorth considers using map colour of industry, probably very very bad idea
19:16:30 <frosch123> does ottd have such light colours?
19:17:03 <frosch123> well, what information shall it represent?
19:17:24 <andythenorth> is a good question
19:17:45 <andythenorth> map colour will just be visual noise, no?
19:17:54 <andythenorth> colour vomit, is what lego people call it
19:18:06 <frosch123> and half of it will have terrible font/bgcolor contrast
19:18:29 <andythenorth> font I can fix :)
19:18:37 <frosch123> currently it tells you to start with green or blue industries
19:18:45 <frosch123> and to somehow get violet cargos
19:19:12 <andythenorth> black for black holes? o_O
19:19:39 <frosch123> if anyone understands what black hole are :p
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19:19:56 <frosch123> i like the terms "primary industry", "secondary industry", "other"
19:20:04 <Alberth> things that suck up entire openttd?
19:20:55 <Alberth> but likely the player only cares about cargo he does need to transport rather than cargo he doesn't get :)
19:25:14 <andythenorth> bundles is slow to build FIRS :)
19:27:55 <frosch123> why do you want to distinguish organic and extractive?
19:28:36 <frosch123> if you want to distingiush farm/eng supplies, then fishing grounds will cause trouble :p
19:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always confused for a short bit about "english supplies"
19:31:05 <andythenorth> I would prefer not to distinguish organic / extractive
19:31:14 <andythenorth> I did it because the switch was there :)
19:31:29 <frosch123> ok :) i set the same colour to both
19:31:54 <frosch123> i am not a big fan of the orange brown you used though
19:32:23 <frosch123> but black might indeed work for blackholes, if you go for white fonts
19:33:17 <frosch123> "black" and "white" are good choices for "other"
19:33:23 <frosch123> because they are not exactly colours
19:34:05 <Zuu> Hmm that full FIRS svg need a way to open in full browser size or so. Though you could do ctrl+'+' on desktop to zoom in far enough to be able to read it.
19:34:34 <frosch123> Zuu: if you open it in a separate tab, it is actually so big, than you cannot find anything :p
19:34:34 <Zuu> If made to cover my whole 24" screen it is almost readable. :-)
19:35:08 <frosch123> but at least you can ctrl+f a svg
19:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: right-click->open
19:35:31 <frosch123> or print it on a3 and put it into your bathroom
19:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a Civ5 techtree that came with the game. it was totally outdated on first patch...
19:36:23 <Zuu> In my browser, left clicking on individual items go to that industry. But it do have "show only this frame" in the right click menu to see only the graph in large size.
19:36:39 <frosch123> i made a civ1 techtree in ascii art, and printed in on a 9-needle printer
19:36:50 <andythenorth> I am going to find a way to show the svg zoomed, in lightbox or so
19:36:58 <andythenorth> haven’t figured that out yet
19:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i never had the need for that. i could easily memorize the tree to get around the "copy protection"
19:37:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: I tried black for black hole btw, but it obscures the arrow heads :)
19:50:18 <andythenorth> front page of BBC News is super gloomy right now
19:50:54 <andythenorth> 5 out of 6 top stories are ‘dead’ or ‘died’ :P
19:51:22 <frosch123> i like matching colours with their meaning
19:52:03 <frosch123> but maybe that is a stage of synesthesia
19:52:27 <andythenorth> feel free to make suggestions
19:53:00 <frosch123> primary -> green like a source of stuff; secondary -> orange like something busy; other -> blue like something that doesn't want to commit to anything
19:53:29 <frosch123> but dark violet (not purple) may also work instead of blue
19:55:58 <andythenorth> yeah, I have bright screen
19:59:18 <Alberth> basic arctic is fine in the economies page, imho, if you load it in a separate tab it grows by 50% or so
20:05:26 * andythenorth battles colour contrast validator also
20:17:28 <frosch123> passenger colour is missing
20:21:11 <Eearslya> Zuu: Updated March 5th..Oh, boy this oughtta be good
20:22:12 <andythenorth> anything orange either fails colour contrast validator or looks like poo brown
20:26:31 <frosch123> does #a04000 pass it?
20:29:19 <frosch123> i currently try primary 2a7234 (identic), secondary a04000, other 460058
20:30:06 * andythenorth has prejudice against purple :)
20:30:30 <Zuu> Lol, in my irc client you got purple nickname color :-)
20:31:12 <andythenorth> #482728 looks ok
20:33:16 <Eearslya> You're all purple to me. I kinda miss my colored nicks addon..
20:35:14 <frosch123> ok, inmdustries look fine now
20:35:27 <frosch123> i get the lightgrey is fine
20:36:42 <andythenorth> do supplies need distinguishing?
20:38:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, remove the <tal:cargo condition="cargo.id not in doc_helper.get_cargoflow_banned_cargos()"> from the cargo colors :)
20:38:36 <frosch123> supply cargos are special compared to others
20:38:40 <frosch123> you may want to look for them
20:38:54 <andythenorth> hmm pax still isn’t taking the colours
20:38:57 * andythenorth will investigate
20:39:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's what i just said
20:40:01 <andythenorth> nah I did that already :)
20:40:07 <andythenorth> pax isn’t getting an ID perhaps
20:40:15 * andythenorth is bathing 2x children right now :)
20:42:04 <frosch123> but the yellow i picked is a bid peey
20:44:21 <frosch123> aaeeee may work for supplies
20:56:41 * andythenorth pushes something
20:56:43 <andythenorth> and waits for bundles
20:56:56 <andythenorth> I am happy with the range of hues
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20:57:02 <andythenorth> it’s a bit dark, but eh, contrast
20:57:34 <frosch123> doing industries with white texts and cargos with black is certainly something i wouldn't come up with, but it's a nice separation :)
20:58:00 <frosch123> and you hated the black outlines :p
20:58:50 <andythenorth> now how to make them fit better?
20:59:14 <frosch123> the size? or still on colours?
21:00:06 <andythenorth> and how to access a bigger version
21:00:57 * andythenorth wonders about edge formatting
21:01:17 <frosch123> easy, remove all economies except basic arctic
21:02:07 <andythenorth> ortho splines? o_O
21:02:37 <frosch123> i don't think it needs custom arrows :o
21:06:53 <frosch123> i would love mousewheel zooming, but no idea how to do that :p
21:08:29 <frosch123> would it work with svg? noone knows :)
21:09:25 <andythenorth> ortho splines look better, but likely harder to use
21:10:00 <andythenorth> add “splines=ortho” to the digraph {} property declarations to see it...
21:10:19 <andythenorth> I was considering colouring edges per cargo
21:10:24 <andythenorth> but I can’t think of a scheme
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21:11:41 <frosch123> i don't think you can automate that in a good way
21:12:52 <andythenorth> technically I can control it, because I know the pairs, but I have NFI how to get a good result
21:14:03 <frosch123> i am not sure i like the ortho splines
21:14:31 <frosch123> they bunch up to a lot of parallel lines, which are hard to follow
21:14:43 <frosch123> they also cross more
21:15:10 <frosch123> petrol in basic arctic for example
21:15:18 <andythenorth> they are superficially neater
21:16:53 <frosch123> can we change the color of svg lines on hoover? :p
21:17:56 <frosch123> may need postprocessing to add something to the polygons :p
21:18:09 <andythenorth> svg supports :hover
21:19:12 <frosch123> well, can we group all lines belonging to the same cargo, and hover highlight them?
21:20:59 <andythenorth> maybe with scripting :)
21:21:21 <andythenorth> currently I’ve got one line at a time
21:21:57 <frosch123> how important do you consider the stuff being printable, i.e. not interactive?
21:22:45 <frosch123> hmm, but yeah, a plethora of different arrow colours would look ugly in any case
21:24:44 <andythenorth> printable, dunno
21:25:26 <frosch123> Eearslya: i think you can turn those two if into a single one
21:25:57 <frosch123> bool is_sell_widget = widget == WID_D_SELL;
21:26:19 <frosch123> if (is_sell_widget != this->sell_hovered) { ... }
21:27:06 <Eearslya> I really, really wanted to condense them; I just didn't think of it that way
21:32:32 <Eearslya> There we go, updated
21:32:53 <Eearslya> I'm just not quite that creative with my if statements, the thought never occurred to me
21:33:26 <frosch123> think of it as 1. compute the target state, 2. check whether it differs from the current state
21:34:02 <Eearslya> Sound advice; I'll keep that in mind
21:36:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: I’m quite happy with the colours now
21:36:27 <andythenorth> still dunno how to control dimensions though
21:37:24 <frosch123> ouch, don't you think the lines are a bit too strong
21:37:43 <frosch123> they dwarf the font size
21:38:01 <frosch123> but yes, colours are nice
21:38:10 <andythenorth> I haven’t pushed the one with smaller lines
21:38:48 * andythenorth looks for svg canvas size
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22:27:17 <frosch123> oh, the tooltip text on the arrows is not nice yet
22:29:15 <andythenorth> I just pushed a few things
22:29:46 <frosch123> hmm, should the tooltip just be empty, or should it say the cargo, name, or both source/dest?
22:30:15 <andythenorth> I find it low value :)
22:33:40 <frosch123> hmm, so you made the size so one cannot read any of them :p
22:33:58 <andythenorth> that is a problem
22:35:07 <andythenorth> I don’t know whether to use lightbox for larger, or redesign the page
22:35:21 <andythenorth> or try and co-erce graphviz to fit full FIRS in a sensible width
22:35:30 <andythenorth> I tried fighting graphviz for a bit
22:35:45 <frosch123> full firs is hopeless in that respect
22:36:22 <frosch123> i think lightbox could work
22:36:32 <frosch123> something that display it full screen, but without scrollbars
22:37:39 <andythenorth> lightbox tends to suck if you use the back button, as they are usually closed when going back
22:38:02 <andythenorth> full FIRS just isn’t going to fit in my browser window :)
22:38:12 <andythenorth> I have 1280x960 or so
22:38:18 <frosch123> document.documentElement.requestFullscreen(); <- would that work?
22:39:12 <andythenorth> let’s experiment? o_O
22:39:29 <frosch123> supported since ff10, chrome15, so ages?
22:41:28 * andythenorth uses Safari, for reasons :P
22:41:42 <andythenorth> I have been up too long to fight javascript today :)
22:47:00 * andythenorth must tidy the kitchen and so forth :)
22:48:00 <andythenorth> eh, well, that was fun day of code
22:53:24 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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23:02:54 <Eearslya> Bored and slightly sleepy
23:03:31 <frosch123> i commented your fs patch
23:03:57 <frosch123> not yours, if you have one :p
23:11:45 <drac_boy> frosch so anyway..didn't we talk about something about trains the last time? (just asking)
23:13:14 <frosch123> Eearslya: i am greeping for where "sel" is reset
23:13:25 <frosch123> does it also need something in OnDragDrop?
23:13:42 <frosch123> drac_boy: trains? in this channel?
23:15:03 <frosch123> i think i told you thatmodern trains in germany are powered by a mix of 40% coal, 20% nuclear, 20% wind and 20% solar power
23:16:19 <frosch123> you can buy a slighty more expensive ticket to claim that your seat is powered by the 40% solar/wind though
23:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there's at least 5% water missing in there
23:16:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and biomass and whatnot
23:16:51 <frosch123> i only guessed roughly
23:17:08 <frosch123> it's also hard to estimate with the nuclear imports from france
23:17:14 <frosch123> and the solar exports to italy
23:17:23 <__ln__> how did all the passengers fit into the train when it's already filled by a nuclear reactor, coal plant and wind turbines
23:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't french like 95% nuclear?
23:18:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but there is a big energy flow in europe that goes france -> germany -> austria -> italy
23:18:15 <drac_boy> at least switzerland can hold some claim to low pollution ratio of their power sources tho
23:19:17 <Eearslya> Hmm; sel isn't something I messed with, but I'll try and find it
23:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you discount one out of 400 nuclear power stations blowing up every 25 years...
23:19:25 <frosch123> __ln__: superior technology allows to put the power source into a different space continuum, which also lowers the weigt of the train
23:20:18 <frosch123> Eearslya: that var specifies which vehicle is being dragged, so it helps finding the places where dragging is started and stopped
23:20:28 <drac_boy> eddi..I'm thinking more of the hydro sources but hmm yeah I think they do have a bit of powerplant mix too tho
23:20:50 <Eearslya> frosch123: Looks like DepotClick, l512
23:21:17 <frosch123> that's where it starts
23:21:43 <frosch123> i think you need to set sell_hovered to false in all places that stop dragging
23:21:47 <frosch123> so whenever "sel" is reset
23:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you ever followed the news, the swiss have a problem with microfractures in their nuclear power stations, including somebody drilling holes in them to fix fire extinguishers
23:22:55 <drac_boy> <also had been looking at a few model ideas and still deciding to go with a small mountain layout since I can buy some Bemo trains dutyfree
23:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, like in all the rest of the world, they put the nuclear plants in geologically active areas (aka. earthquake zones)... because that's where the rivers are which are used for cooling, and where all the people live that need the power
23:24:52 <Eearslya> frosch123: You have any idea what OnTimeout is? It seems to raise the sell widget too for some reason
23:25:28 <frosch123> Eearslya: it's a timer event
23:25:37 <frosch123> in ottd buttons do not react to mouse-up
23:25:52 * drac_boy still would like to try find if theres a non-brass source for africa or french trains too (and being in canada so hmm yeah, tricky)
23:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, i meant to bring that fact up
23:25:58 <frosch123> they trigger on mouse-down, and a timer raises the button shortly after
23:26:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did you play outpost2?
23:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, only outpost1
23:26:48 <frosch123> there are two factions in that game, the smart ones and the stupid ones
23:27:09 <frosch123> the stupid ones always settle near to a vulcan, so in about every mission you have to evacuate from there and settle somewhere safe
23:27:49 <frosch123> i got outpost1&2 in a bundle, outpost1 is certainly the biggest scam experience i ever had
23:28:03 <frosch123> ("scam" is likely not the right term, but i cannot remember the right one just now)
23:28:15 <drac_boy> oh yeah I remember now..I was also talking about mixed trains (and a rather unusual uk photo I found too)
23:28:39 <Eearslya> frosch123: Well, logically, the only times that sel would be reset and sell_hovered is true are handled; It handles if the vehicle is actually sold, and if it's cancelled. Not sure where else it'd need it..
23:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i was sort of addicted to outpost when it was new, but it certainly was extremely unfinished
23:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea where i got it from, though
23:29:47 <drac_boy> actually I had been wondering a bit about NS trains too but as I'm not sure if their sort of operations could be tailored to a model layout tho (these 2- and 3-car Mat** trainsets are easy to get ahold of
23:30:28 <drac_boy> frosch... maybe another word could be 'let down'?
23:31:14 <frosch123> drac_boy: nah, more criminal
23:31:19 <frosch123> like a completely unfinished game
23:31:25 <frosch123> that does not do at all what i claims
23:32:07 <frosch123> at the start of the game you are sent through an endless "web form" with hundreds of things to set and select
23:32:15 <frosch123> which has no influence on anything whatsoever
23:32:54 <frosch123> you can research many things in game, but all they do is "hey, you researched X"
23:34:31 <drac_boy> frosch ah I see...yeah sounds like a big duff :-s
23:35:53 <frosch123> i grew up in a small town, to buy video games one had to drive to a bigger city
23:36:01 <frosch123> but everytime i bought a video game, it was crap
23:37:15 <frosch123> on contrast, that stuff that you can trade in school was already prefiltered, so always better
23:38:07 <frosch123> so i learned at young age that pirated stuff is of better quality than bought stuff :)
23:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, Transport Tycoon was good, as we knew that from the demo. but it was crazy expensive
23:39:24 <frosch123> Eearslya: i guess it does not matter. technically when dropping the vehicle on the button, OnDragDrop raises the button via HandleButtonClick, but sell_hovered remains true
23:39:52 <frosch123> however, sell_hovered is only evaluated in OnMouseDrag, and the next time you start dragging a vehicle, the mouse is no longer over the sell button
23:40:03 <frosch123> it would only matter if there was a hotkey to start dragging a vehicle :p
23:42:32 <Xaroth|Work> space engineers is like minecraft
23:42:41 <Xaroth|Work> ... with spiders o_O
23:42:59 <frosch123> oh, is that the thing argoneus wanted to sell me yesterday?
23:43:39 <frosch123> he said something about minecraft in space with trains
23:44:02 <Xaroth|Work> then he probably meant this
23:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you mixed some stuff there :p
23:44:20 <frosch123> though iirc he said it was a minecraft mod
23:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> selective memory :p
23:45:05 <frosch123> Xaroth|Work: anyway, it looks more like train simulator
23:45:15 <frosch123> i like management/building games
23:45:33 <argoneus> frosch123: i meant minecarft with mods
23:49:42 <drac_boy> oh yeah eddi you remember how I found that photo of a uk train that had the coaches in middle of consist instead of being shunted near either end?
23:54:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27446 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 23:54:52 +0100 )
23:54:59 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Lower the sell-vehicle button in the depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya)
23:55:10 <frosch123> Eearslya: thanks, nice feature :)
23:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now one can finally sell invisible vehicles :p
23:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, not really, but the chance is a bit higher :p
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23:58:46 <argoneus> space engineers is not a very good game
23:58:57 <argoneus> it's still an unoptimized alpha
23:59:44 <Xaroth|Work> argoneus: same goes for minecraft tbh :P
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