IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-11-16
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01:02:52 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
01:03:53 <drac_boy> just wondering now that I thought of it but..can you have a single grf that would function both with and without 32bit pixel support or does that have to be two separate grfs otherwise?
01:10:45 <Supercheese> all grfs require 8bpp sprites in the event someone has forced their blitter to 8bpp
01:11:05 <Supercheese> (even though there shouldn't be much reason for that anyway)
01:12:06 <drac_boy> oh so if it was given to either ttdxp or some odd ottd it'll just ignore the 32bit aspects then?
01:13:23 <Supercheese> yes, if 32bpp is disabled for whatever reason, fallback sprites are technically mandatory
01:13:41 <Supercheese> of course, there's also nothing technically stopping the author from putting 1x1 blank pixel sprites as their 8bpp fallbacks.......
01:13:52 <Supercheese> but I wager most folks wouldn't do that :P
01:17:57 <drac_boy> supercheese "most" would have to exclude a certain popular grf arthor in here tho but yeah I see your point tho :)
01:18:13 <Supercheese> (that's the joke ;) )
01:18:32 <Supercheese> as with most things in grfs, the authors have considerable leeway
01:18:38 <drac_boy> either way thanks btw, was just curious if I ever somehow decided to try find out some way to draw 32bit .. for now its just 8bit due to compatibility
01:18:47 <Supercheese> but really, users should keep 32bpp on all the time
01:50:16 <drac_boy> hows you anyway supercheese
01:51:38 <Supercheese> enjoying playing lots of Factorio
02:04:56 * drac_boy is trying to find some uk/europe websites for now :-s
02:14:36 <drac_boy> you'll think I could find some french trains after all heh
02:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> have you looked in the river yet? </bad_joke>
02:33:32 <drac_boy> lest the river runs under your floor eddi :P
02:42:26 <drac_boy> oh yeah .. saw a ready to run africa AD60 for more than $800 .. ouch .. the hobby can be expensive for some :p
02:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you won't get very complicated and/or detailed models in the <100€ category
02:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm fairly sure there's no upper boundary
02:54:13 <drac_boy> if you want to go really high, try brass live steam? :)
03:45:50 <FLHerne> Do 7¼" miniatures count as 'models'? Those can be tens of thousands!
03:52:46 <drac_boy> hmm flherne good question..I'm not sure if ride-on trains are really called "model" even although they're not full scale
03:53:36 <FLHerne> Well, the exact-to-scale (within possibility) working replicas ought to
03:53:57 <FLHerne> I saw a 7¼" Black Five once, it was quite impressive
03:56:27 <drac_boy> the funny thing about ride-on live steam tho is that sometimes what did not work well in 1:1 scale can actually work well in smaller scale due to smaller higher-pressure boilers etc
03:57:08 <drac_boy> (I'll have to check but I recall the real thing only had like 200-250psi or so...this model one has close to 400)
03:58:55 <drac_boy> oh..random tidbit but I recall that Santa Fe for a short time did have a 300psi boiler but they found that it was wrecking the siderods .. cue rest of production being bought in-line with only 280psi instead .. afaik that was the only one short time 300psi existed on real usa steam locomotives
04:06:22 <drac_boy> anyway going sleep now
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09:54:21 <Wolf01> uhm, i just noticed i don't have any racing game on steam
09:57:12 <Wolf01> i could redeem grid, but i would like a rally game more
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17:31:02 <Casual> Uhhh that is more people than I expected
17:31:40 <Casual> Okay anyway, I have a question about the terminus station setup
17:32:02 <Casual> Is there a way to make it work without risking a jam in the cross-section
17:32:22 <Casual> Or is the only way to make terminus work "properly" is to just make a ro-ro and loop it back around
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17:33:43 <planetmaker> Casual, of course you can build other terminus layouts :)
17:34:00 <planetmaker> especially, *do* use proper signaling and it becomes jam-free
17:34:38 <planetmaker> though the examples you do show are jam-free - provided the trains don't jam the exit track
17:35:13 <planetmaker> if your copy of the screenshots are not jam-free you did an error in copying the signaling
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17:38:34 <_dp_> what are two-way pbs for near each platform?
17:39:14 <planetmaker> the reason for those? None. They can be left-out
17:39:45 <planetmaker> for a strict terminus setup they can be left-out. You can build the same thing in-line. Then you need them
17:40:09 <_dp_> ah, yeah, that explains it
17:41:15 <_dp_> but strict terminus is better without them, iirc it doesn't count as travel time when train is waiting for path on station
17:41:51 <Casual> planetmaker, but if two trains are already at the station, then nothing prevents the third train from entering the cross-section block as it is separate, which creates a permanent jam
17:42:17 <planetmaker> Casual, it does. In both cases due to the signaling chosen. Look careful:
17:42:25 <_dp_> at least that's the only way to explain why terminus gives more income per train than roro sometimes)
17:42:34 <planetmaker> in the upper part, there are exit signals near the station and an entry signal on the incoming line
17:42:45 <planetmaker> both exit signals will be red when the station is occupied, thus the entry one, too
17:43:04 <planetmaker> in the path signal case (lower image), you won't get a reservation past the entry signal either as it's occupied
17:44:10 <Casual> Why would the entry signal be red when both block signals are red? I thought only pre-signals relied on state of other signals
17:44:13 <planetmaker> _dp_, that might of course also simply be explained by longer tracks, can't it?
17:44:35 <planetmaker> Casual, entry-combo-exit signal. That is chosen in the upper image (without combo).
17:45:22 <planetmaker> Casual, I suggest you actually *try* it. And / or read up on signaling :)
17:46:01 <planetmaker> are both good reading
17:46:02 <_dp_> dunno, it's not that much extra tracks to do roro imo
17:46:28 <planetmaker> _dp_, not much. But an occasional additional arrival per year might be the difference you see :)
17:46:51 <planetmaker> add to that the slightly lower payment when travel is slightly slower...
17:46:54 <Casual> Ahhh, the description of the image says "Simple terminus stations: the left one is using block signals, the right one path signals."
17:47:01 <Casual> So I thought these were just two standard block signals
17:47:08 <_dp_> nah, that wasn't because of additional arrival for sure
17:47:12 <Casual> But now that i look at them they don't like block at all :)
17:47:26 <Casual> Okay that's that then, thanks
17:47:41 <planetmaker> Casual, there's nearly no reason to use standard block signals *anywhere*
17:49:46 <Casual> Too used to TTD I guess
17:49:57 <planetmaker> people still play that? :-O
17:51:28 <Casual> We did, 20 years ago :P
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18:12:05 <Alberth> does coop use path signals everywhere?
18:12:38 <Alberth> I noticed trains sometimes stop for no good reason with PBS, due to other moving trains
18:13:38 <Alberth> could be a configuration issue though
18:32:27 <V453000> Alberth: coop uses path signals everywhere to identify who is hopeless noob
18:33:49 <Alberth> you did not pass the test, do not go past start, do not become member :p
18:34:16 <V453000> membership is ways later, but this is sometimes seen on the welcome server
18:34:36 <V453000> when learning to build properly this is the first thing to get rid of
18:34:56 <Alberth> hmm, /me is not at the first stage then :p
18:35:39 <V453000> yeah refusal is what usually gives the hopeless status :P
18:35:55 <Eearslya> Then again, I've never made anything close to a rail system yet; more like just tiny rail system-ettes
18:36:16 <Alberth> although I did switch to entry/exit signals at some station where the additional delay was becoming a problem :)
18:36:45 <Alberth> so there may be still hope for me :)
18:36:52 <Eearslya> I still don't understand those signals..
18:39:48 <Alberth> ah well, I'll stay being amazed what you can build at coop :)
18:40:59 <Alberth> Eearslya: it's a big game, don't expect to get it all within the next 10 years
18:41:03 <V453000> its not like you cant learn it just by playing there ;)
18:41:34 <Eearslya> How much income/year does coop usually make?
18:42:01 <Alberth> Eearslya: wrong question, money is irrelevant :)
18:42:20 <V453000> answer is shitload though
18:42:51 <V453000> when you transport gigantic amounts of things, income just comes by itself
18:43:22 <Eearslya> Then what's the goal of coop? Super fancy transport systems just for the sake of it?
18:43:24 <Alberth> it's easy to get more than you can spend, at which point the total amount is not a useful number any more
18:44:01 <V453000> kind of for the sake of it, but "just build it huge with a ton of trains" is a lot more complex goal than it sounds
18:44:31 <V453000> there of course do exist some records like max number of trains or max transported count
18:44:37 <Alberth> many trains is easy, but to keep it all flowing is the challenge
18:44:40 <V453000> but playing for those goals is not every game :)
18:45:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27448 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-16 18:45:09 +0100 )
18:45:19 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:20 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
18:45:32 <Alberth> yay, another translated string
18:45:34 <Eearslya> Which max trains? Since it's configurable..
18:47:05 <Eearslya> Oh, I thought you actually meant so many trains the game simply would refuse to make one more
18:47:25 <Alberth> coop is playing together with 10 people or so, so it's 10 times bigger than anything you can achieve as single person
18:47:35 <V453000> Eearslya: 5000 is the maximum :)
18:47:58 <V453000> Alberth: I actually played PZG2013 alone 95% of the time :)
18:48:08 <Eearslya> Oh, well then. What's coop map size?
18:48:29 <V453000> 512x512 or equivalents like 256x1024
18:48:37 <V453000> OR 256x256 for fun :)
18:48:56 <Eearslya> And you fit 5k trains on that..wow.
18:49:12 <Alberth> finding a tile without track is .... a challenge there :)
18:49:21 <V453000> it is kind of a special game so you could say some of them are stopped, but still :)
18:49:48 <V453000> that is why the other records of 3000 are also relevant and not directly overwritten
18:49:58 <Alberth> Eearslya: you can donwload the final games if you want to have a look
18:50:17 <V453000> in fact pzg21 with 3000 AsiaStars could probably handle 5000 well-accelerating trains
18:50:28 <V453000> which also kind of shows how subjective even the train number is
18:50:29 <Eearslya> Now I get why you guys don't play on larger maps; you wouldn't be able to make enough vehicles for it XD
18:50:41 <V453000> yeah there is no reason to play on bigger maps :)
18:51:04 <Alberth> you just get longer stretches of boring straight track :)
18:51:32 <Eearslya> Welp, I gotta take a math exam; gimme 30 mins or so
18:57:12 <Alberth> ha, I tried that once in my debug build, it was veeery slow :)
18:59:30 <V453000> I mainly like how all trains make decisions at the same time so it slows down, then runs faster, then slows, then faster, ...
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19:00:12 <Alberth> should try it on a non-debug build :)
19:01:13 <frosch123> Alberth: it's amazing how fast ottd starts when not using a debug build :p
19:02:22 <frosch123> i had an item on my todo list for a long time to finally make ottd start somewhat faster
19:02:34 <frosch123> then somehow i made a non-debug build for something
19:08:39 <peter1138> it can still be slow
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19:29:01 <Eearslya> Ohai; I put a couple things on FlySpray
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19:44:00 <Wolf01> bah, i had to move out a spider, mom was terrified
19:44:48 <frosch123> you could have eaten it instead
19:48:40 <Wolf01> no i'm not, i'm a werewerewolf or a werewolf^2
19:49:05 <argoneus> wolves can be homo too
19:49:13 <frosch123> were²wolf or werewolf² ?
19:49:22 <argoneus> then you aren't a wolf
19:49:47 <argoneus> do you think there are feminist wolves
19:49:52 <argoneus> that get triggered by the patriarchy
19:50:01 <V453000> WTF I look away for a minute and chat turns into wtf
19:50:02 <argoneus> for ripping all the poor deer to shreds
19:50:38 <frosch123> argoneus: stop eating red meat. it cause brain cancer
19:50:52 <argoneus> frosch123: i hope more people listen to this
19:50:57 <argoneus> then i can buy it for cheaper
19:51:10 <argoneus> while they smoke which increases the chance of cancer much more
19:51:22 <Wolf01> when you'll find that wolves are lead by females, you'll understand that they don't need feminism
19:52:19 <argoneus> is there an easy way to print what's in the current session? so I can review the inserts/deletes before comitting them
19:53:26 <frosch123> V453000: see, that's the reason
19:54:17 <argoneus> dont make me build a railroad around yours
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20:13:03 <frosch123> did you clean the kitchen saturday night?
20:14:36 <frosch123> i didn't; it starts getting critical
20:14:57 <Alberth> kitchen threatens to leave?
20:19:39 <_dp_> frosch123, btw, I've updated my patch, it didn't go exactly as planned though :)
20:25:43 * andythenorth learning about cocoa beans
20:26:08 <Alberth> learning something new every day
20:27:16 <andythenorth> antidote to the news
20:27:22 <Wolf01> you are learning how to get cocoa from them?
20:28:48 <andythenorth> only enough to put them in FIRS :P
20:33:13 * andythenorth figuring out which cash crops for the Hopes and Impediments economy
20:33:38 <andythenorth> cocoa, peanuts, palm oil seem to be the most consistently produced in the countries I’m looking at
20:33:58 <andythenorth> there’s already rubber, fruit, coffee; I think I can remove coffee
20:34:37 <andythenorth> they all just go plantation -> port
20:34:49 <andythenorth> which is ok, but ‘moar’ of these is not better
20:34:58 <Eearslya> Whoops. Kinda left my game open on fast forward while at college.
20:35:11 <Eearslya> Bright side is, I have $30mil
20:36:29 <Alberth> and your company obviously survived :)
20:37:02 <Alberth> and possibly you have run out of new vehicle types?
20:37:51 <Eearslya> Surprisingly, my trains doing nothing but transporting iron back and forth were making $700k a year, so yeah, I survived XD
20:38:05 <Eearslya> As for vehicle types..Well, it's 2052
20:38:35 <peter1138> congratulations, you completed the game without playing.
20:39:34 <Eearslya> With 4 buses and 2 6-long trains
20:39:58 <Eearslya> Which are all screaming at me to be replaced
20:40:00 <Alberth> I hope you have a save game from before you left :)
20:40:14 <Eearslya> I..don't think I do XD
20:40:27 <Alberth> ah well, time to start a new one :p
20:41:58 <Eearslya> I wonder how far it would have gone if the game didn't show that 'congratulations' screen at 2050
20:42:25 <Eearslya> It was only maybe 1952 when I left
20:45:49 <Alberth> that's easy to calculate :)
20:46:31 <Zuu> _dp_: Hello Alberthii :-)
20:47:22 <_dp_> I've updated my patch ;)
20:47:40 <Zuu> Yep, and I'm sorry that my first remark is missing { and } on some if statements.
20:49:03 <Zuu> But that is easily fixable in my local patch copy with --unified=15 :-)
20:49:14 <_dp_> hm, I remember someone removing those {} in one of my patches xD
20:49:59 <Eearslya> oh hello, you commented on my patch
20:50:04 <Eearslya> dammit, that means I have to get up
20:50:07 <Zuu> This is correct: if (foo) bar();
20:50:25 <Zuu> But as soon as bar() get on its own line, { } is required by the coding style.
20:51:19 <Eearslya> Alberth: how dare you make me get up and be productive today
20:52:14 <Alberth> maybe you should not have submitted a patch? :p
20:52:32 <Alberth> but euhm, feel free to take a day off if you want :)
20:52:32 <Eearslya> You're the one who asked for this one!
20:53:12 <Alberth> well, yeah, but I won't play the game for the next 3 days :)
20:53:35 <_dp_> ah, ok, completely forgot about that :(
20:53:49 <Alberth> this real-life thing called 'work' :p
20:54:32 <Alberth> very bad invention, but it was done before I was born :(
20:55:24 <Eearslya> that sounds horrible
20:56:19 <Eearslya> Pandora is go, now I can code
20:56:30 <Alberth> you get used to it :p
20:59:40 <Eearslya> Widget IDs can be 0, right?
21:00:44 <Eearslya> That's the only reason I use -1
21:05:25 <Alberth> yes, the value itself is not the problem, the problem is lack of defining what -1 means
21:05:45 <Eearslya> Right, just making sure that -1 is even necessary
21:06:01 <Zuu> _dp_: It happens me that I forget about putting a space after 'if' or 'for' in OpenTTD code. At first iteration ofa patch it is often easy to check for your usual mistakes, but then when other devs suggest changes, it is easy to forget to check for your habits. :-)
21:09:33 <Zuu> _dp_: Two of your added methods are missing doxygen comments.
21:09:41 <_dp_> Zuu, yeah, exactly xD And I'm also so used to code in python with pep8 linter)
21:10:58 <_dp_> Zuu, well, I didn't know what to put in it except for just repeating their names %)
21:12:21 <Zuu> Well its the coding style. And it will also document what the parameters does.
21:12:59 <_dp_> function I was splitting didn't have any comment in a first place :P
21:17:29 <Zuu> + * Calculates amount of active stations in Tz0.
21:18:41 <_dp_> idk how else to call squared_town_zone_radius[0]
21:20:55 <Zuu> "in range of town"? or "in squared town zone radius"?
21:22:26 <_dp_> guess I can call it HZB_TOWN_EDGE
21:23:55 <Zuu> I mean the function name is fine. But Tz0 in that comment doesn't tell much. Looking for Tz0 in the code base give me only one match - your comment.
21:24:19 <_dp_> Calculates amount of active stations in range of town (HZB_TOWN_EDGE).
21:26:30 <_dp_> or mb (zone 0) would be better, hzb seems kinda houses-related
21:27:47 <Zuu> The HZB_TOWN_EDGE or house zones is a part of the code I never looked at before. The part of the sentence up to '(' works fine. The reference doesn't say me anything, but could be because thats unknown territory to me.
21:32:07 <_dp_> Zuu, yeah, and I meddled a lot with town zones so usually want to know exact zone number)
21:32:16 <_dp_> while "range of town" says nothing to me xD
21:33:00 <_dp_> ha, "range of town" has 0 matches in code as well))
21:33:15 <Zuu> Well, HZB_TOWN_EDGE is a lot better than Tz0 as it have matches in the code.
21:34:48 <_dp_> let's settle with it then
21:35:07 <_dp_> there also is GetTownRadiusGroup function but it's not like it helps to decide))
21:36:01 <_dp_> it mixes all possible namings, HouseZonesBits in return type, TownRadiusGroup in name and "town zone" in doxygen %)
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21:39:53 <andythenorth> minimetro keeps beating me :P
21:41:15 <Zuu> It is good at eventually making you lose
21:42:20 <andythenorth> I bought the full version
21:42:30 <andythenorth> 1558 is my high score in New York
21:42:48 <Zuu> I only played Alpha 8-13 or so.
21:43:49 <Zuu> I do play my share bit of ticket to ride though.
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21:45:14 <Zuu> I think my high score is 219 or so.
21:51:42 <andythenorth> so I’ve swapped grain to maize
21:51:46 <andythenorth> in this FIRS economy
21:51:54 <andythenorth> so do I swap the grain mill to maize mill?
21:52:00 <andythenorth> or use the food processor instead?
21:53:35 <Zuu> I don't know. I never woried about designing industry chains.
21:54:55 <_dp_> Zuu, I updated patch with more comments)
21:57:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: make it a popcorn cooker
21:58:23 <Eearslya> And then add a theatre building in cities that accept popcorn
21:58:44 <Zuu> _dp_: On line 137 of your patch there is white space in your indentation.
22:09:50 <andythenorth> “# - do that after snakebite, the CPP templating doesn't handle economy variations either”
22:10:03 <Zuu> UpdateTownGrowth is supposed to be the new UpdateTownGrowRate? Why is it calling UpdateTownGrowthRate() at the beginning while old UpdateTownGrowth did this at the end? And possible not always.
22:10:39 <Zuu> Though there is probably more questions to figure out. But it is getting too late in the evening to cover it all.
22:11:12 * andythenorth does not fight FIRS more today
22:11:15 * andythenorth does play a game
22:11:21 <_dp_> Zuu, I changed it this way so it would always calculate growth rate
22:12:19 <Zuu> I though the idea was that only when GS change growth rate back to normal, it should always be calculated. But the fact that was is not always for normal town update is part of the game mechanics.
22:13:18 <_dp_> for game mechanics it doesn't matter what is growth rate when town is not growing
22:15:00 <Zuu> On line 3158 of the old source, it says: if (n == 0 && !Chance16(1, 12)) return;
22:15:35 <Zuu> As far as I understand that part, if there is no stations in range of town, and by random, don't update growth rate.
22:16:19 <_dp_> it means if no stations have chance to grow anyway
22:17:07 <_dp_> again, if it wasn't lucky and town is not growing, growth rate didn't matter
22:19:42 <Zuu> Ah well yes. Later in code, you only set TOWN_IS_GROWING if you are lucky and have no stations.
22:20:57 <_dp_> yeah, that part is mostly same as it was, I just separated growth rate and growth flag calculations
22:22:10 <_dp_> and took care to always keep valid growth rate
22:23:54 <_dp_> or, well, somewhat valid, but that's story for another patch xD
22:26:48 <Zuu> Oh well theretically you could have an impact by computing the growth rate before " if (_settings_game.economy.town_growth_rate == 0 && t->fund_buildings_months == 0) return;
22:26:48 <Zuu> ", but on the other hand doing counter scaling always means it will also give slighly different behaviour from before. But this not being a calculator means it is probably not too bad. :-)
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