IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-21
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00:10:50 *** Demosthenex has joined #openttd
00:11:22 <Demosthenex> so with 1.5.2, what's the best way to keep vehicles separated evenly along a shared route?
01:12:57 <_dp_> ha, I think I found a way to change vehicle introduction dates)
01:13:23 <_dp_> probably even separately for every company
01:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game has a bitmask for each vehicle, which company has access to it. the only values used here are: no company, all companies or one single company (preview). but in theory, you can use this to flip each company bit individually, provided that you implement a method to set the bits by GS, and you suppress the builtin vehicle progression
01:44:58 <_dp_> exactly, and (ab)use command for accepting exclusive preview to update clients
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01:56:22 <_dp_> though, does accepting preview cost some extra money?
01:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but it will also probably suppress the message that the engine became available
01:59:43 <_dp_> not a big deal, can probably do one with GS instead
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11:48:04 <Demosthenex> so, is there any good means within the 1.5.2 release (no user added mods) to maintain vehicle separation in a shared route?
12:01:19 <peter1138> there's autoseparation hidden away with a ctrl-click somewhere in timetabling, but keeping that separation going is a challenge
12:19:37 <Demosthenex> i know there is timetables, but they feel so... rough
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12:55:05 <peter1138> sure, but that's the only way
12:57:36 <Demosthenex> so the wiki tutorial on timetables is opaque... any other suggestions?
12:59:21 <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:05:43] <Flygon> And LadyHawk is either definitely a Hawk or inspired by a movie that I've been meaning to see
12:59:23 <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:10] <Flygon> Ever seen a LadyHawk?
12:59:23 <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:22] <Flygon> They're pretty
12:59:23 <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:23] <Flygon> But
12:59:23 <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:28] <Flygon> They'll tear your throat out
12:59:23 <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:36] <Flygon> Because shit, she's a Hawk, not a human
13:00:18 <LadyHawk> ladyhawke movie from 1985 i think
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15:06:10 <Demosthenex> ok, so i think i have a temp solution
15:06:28 <Demosthenex> i have a city with 5 stations, and 5 busses. i just want them in sync, i don't care about the passenger traffic, as it's a growth plan
15:06:43 <Demosthenex> so i did autofill to find the route, they are mostly the same, 11 to 17 days between stations
15:07:16 <Demosthenex> so i set an even timetable for all busses, 3 days @ each station, 20 days allowed for travel, reset the late counters and skipped each bus to the right station
15:07:20 <Demosthenex> now they run in a ring.
15:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> use ctrl+click on "start date" to distribute them evenly
15:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (provided that you used shared orders, not copied orders)
15:34:59 <Demosthenex> Eddi|zuHause: that does that with the dates, or via the stops?
15:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have set up the timetable, it sets the start dates evenly apart, and the busses will wait at the first stop until their start date comes along
15:40:45 <_dp_> Demosthenex, why bother that much with timetable for growth booster? just put 5 stations close enough and start one bus
15:46:20 <Demosthenex> _dp_: i made kind of a ring i wanted the town to grow into, and then i have bus stations around the ring, and one at my terminal
15:54:48 <Demosthenex> Eddi|zuHause: that appears not to work if they already were mid-route, i have to reset them all to stop one?
15:58:35 <Demosthenex> hrm. nope. i tried the date with them all on #1, and they all ran there when i hit go
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16:24:37 <Demosthenex> is the control-click spread start date one of those things where they will eventually spread out?
16:24:49 <Demosthenex> as opposed to initially spread out?
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16:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Demosthenex: the spreading will start once each vehicle visited the first station
16:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Demosthenex: occasionally it doesn't quite work out the right order the first time, and then you will end up with some vehicles thinking they're 98% of the timetable late, instead of 2% early
16:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> they will then spend an eternity trying to catch up their delay, possibly stuck behind another vehicle that thinks it's on time
16:54:58 <Rubidium> the timetable spreading works best with multiplatform stations that have a bit of spare room for overtaking to solve that problem with initial ordering
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16:57:08 <NGC3982> Did.. something happend?
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17:17:07 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 19 hours and 28 seconds ago: * andythenorth bed
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17:30:28 <NGC3982> Still, there are no logs to give me more verbose information regarding what "connection failed" means with the Soap plugin for supybot?
17:33:01 <Alberth> logs would be at your end, most likely, or at the isp end
17:33:37 <NGC3982> Yes, it's my own supybot on my own server. So somewhere, i should be able to figure out what i'm doing wrong.
17:34:07 <NGC3982> I've set the host, ive set the admin port and password.
17:34:23 <peter1138> what happened is the connection dropped
17:34:25 <peter1138> these things happen
17:35:28 <NGC3982> You guys are the weirdest people on the internet
17:35:53 <Alberth> common cause is isp is optimizing too much for speed, and sacrificing stability
17:37:03 <Taede> NGC3982, make sure openttd is fully up and listening on the adminport. it doesnt start network till it has scanned all newgrfs
17:37:26 <Taede> so if you have a lot of them, itll take a while before itll accept incoming adminport connections, and you'll get connection failed
17:39:01 <Taede> as for logs, there's openttd.log next to the executable, and there should also be a log file created by the bot in botdir/bin/logs or thereabouts
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17:40:05 <NGC3982> Taede: I see. I found the log, and as usual it was very simple. I had the admin port open in my NAT, and correctly written in my openttd.cfg. Although, i missed out on the Soap.port parameter.
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18:07:05 <NGC3982> How exciting to see that game creation is one-core, but split between them accordingly.
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18:41:26 <Wolf01> it's nice when cortana does what you need... if you cut all the alternatives it can do only the right thing :P
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18:56:00 <andythenorth> island supply vessel
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19:45:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27402 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-09-21 19:45:08 +0200 )
19:45:17 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:18 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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21:01:36 <Xaroth|Work> that's the yearly Sail event
21:01:59 <Xaroth|Work> it gets that crazy for a few days every year
21:03:56 <Rubidium> Xaroth|Work: you spoiled the fun... you should've said it's just normal rush hour traffic ;)
21:04:41 <Rubidium> having said that, yearly is a bit optimistic
21:06:13 <Rubidium> it's only quinquennial
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21:21:43 <frosch123> Wolf01: and people already get scared when driving next to a suv :)
21:25:51 <Wolf01> we have a similar event here in Italy, every year in the Trieste gulf we do the "barcolana", a regatta for every kind of sail boat, all together :P
21:27:27 <NGC3982> 4096^2 map was unplayable on my atom. :(
21:29:49 <frosch123> playing a 4kx4k map is like ending your sentences with 3 exclamation marks
21:30:33 <peter1138> What's wrong with that!!!
21:32:21 <frosch123> peter1138: you need more variety ¡‽¿?�!
21:34:48 <NGC3982> Even 2048^2 is unusable as a dedicated server.
21:58:30 <_dp_> Is there a way to disallow company from getting cargo from specific industry?
21:58:39 <_dp_> to prevent "stealing" cargo for example
22:01:05 <frosch123> no, but you could detect the stealing and then make the gs remove the station
22:03:04 <_dp_> don't think it can be removed if there is always a train waiting
22:10:19 <_dp_> also.. any chances for a patch that will address the issuue?)
22:11:23 <_dp_> I bet there were tons of suggestions regarding stealing, it's so common problem
22:11:56 <_dp_> all major communities have anti-stealing rule of some kind, and players break it quite often
22:12:20 <peter1138> the idea of "stealing" is bogus
22:12:25 <frosch123> the biggest mistake of every ottd player is to think that everyone plays like them
22:12:43 <frosch123> i am quite sure the "i destroy the ais"-community is 10 times bigger than yours
22:14:09 <V453000> it isnt as much about any playstyle but about following rules
22:14:24 <V453000> if a server cant manage people to follow them, it doesnt matter what rules they are
22:14:28 <frosch123> there are endless ways to break rules
22:14:32 <frosch123> by blocking paths and what not
22:14:34 <V453000> and it just goes to shit over time
22:14:50 <V453000> that is what admins are for
22:14:53 <V453000> to solve shit like that
22:15:27 <V453000> since stealing can be the same as building too close to somebody else == blocking, it is all very close to define :)
22:16:10 <V453000> having people have each their own area is safest for people to not cause problems
22:16:38 <frosch123> yeah, just let everyone play in singleplayer on the same map
22:16:40 <NGC3982> I kind of get what he means, but i still like this game because it's not EVE.
22:16:43 <frosch123> it cannot be fairer than that :)
22:16:54 <V453000> that is in fact a part of the point
22:16:56 <andythenorth> what is ‘stealing’?
22:17:00 <V453000> it is just a way some people enjoy playing
22:17:07 <V453000> you dont need to compete with anybody or anything
22:17:18 <V453000> you just want to talk to them, learn from them, show them what you do, and discuss it
22:17:20 <_dp_> why require moderators attention for stuff that can be ruled out programmatically?
22:17:27 <V453000> and that is what can drive you to play the game forever
22:17:39 <andythenorth> where is that quote
22:17:47 <andythenorth> about technological solutions to social problems
22:17:48 <V453000> dp the best rule is "do not behave like assholes" and that is hard to do by program :)
22:18:04 <V453000> every limitation the game could make by program could always be walked around
22:18:18 <V453000> the atmosphere on the server can be spoiled just by agressive chat etc
22:18:35 <_dp_> also stealing sometimes can be worse than blocking, as one useless station immediately takes half of industry production, which can completely screw up your game in no time
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22:19:36 <frosch123> play singleplayer, that makes the players completely indepenent
22:20:01 <V453000> chatting is way important
22:20:21 <NGC3982> _dp_: It seems you wish a new feature in the game, not a rule change. I can understand you, but i do not really think it follows the essence of this game.
22:20:27 <NGC3982> Or at least it's creators.
22:20:56 <andythenorth> industries distribute cargo to multiple players
22:21:07 <andythenorth> they aren’t captured
22:21:22 <andythenorth> it could be probably done as hax in newgrf by dumping rating though
22:21:32 <andythenorth> or by hax on ‘exclusive town rights'
22:22:05 <_dp_> esiest way would be to prevent building any station close to industry, but that's ugly
22:22:10 <frosch123> true, you can make the gs purchase exclusive transport rights for everyone
22:22:21 <frosch123> and also donate the money to everyone which is used by that
22:23:19 <_dp_> and anti-stealing rules are there for good reason, I experienced that countless times myself how annoying stealing can get
22:23:29 <frosch123> but anyway, i just don't get competitive playing in ottd :)
22:23:49 <frosch123> i get singleplayer and i get cooperative play (which is singleplayer but at larger scale)
22:24:08 <frosch123> competitive with "don't get into each others way" makes no sense to me
22:24:14 <_dp_> also stealing sometimes provoke blocking wars
22:24:57 <_dp_> and I'm only playing competitive :P
22:25:15 <frosch123> yup, you are a mystery to me :)
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22:25:32 <_dp_> btw, anti-stealing rules I'm talking about usually allow sharing primary industries but prohibit taking from secondaries
22:26:05 <_dp_> as competition is fine, but you can do ridiculous amount of damage taking from secondary
22:26:37 <frosch123> you can also make the gs purchase a 20x20 area around everyones secondary industry :)
22:27:31 <Taede> wouldnt that also prevent the original player from expanding station later on?
22:27:53 <frosch123> no, the gs would purchase it on behalf of the player
22:28:09 <frosch123> gs can execute almost every command in the name of any company
22:28:30 <_dp_> yeah, area blocking is ok solution, we are already using it for a long time actually (just for some cases though)
22:28:53 <_dp_> but would be really nice to have something more accurate, is't just overkill to block everything
22:29:00 <frosch123> though not sure whether purchase land is avaialble in the api, or whther it was considered bad
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22:30:53 <frosch123> _dp_: revive the head2head branch :)
22:30:55 <_dp_> also blocking area can't deal with stations that are already there
22:31:39 <Taede> someone could also build usess stations at any unused secondaries, and end up blocking them all
22:33:24 <_dp_> well, blocking can activate only after successful loading, but still is't a good solution
22:33:49 <Taede> not hard to build a depot and have a small truck start loading
22:33:54 <_dp_> that's why I'd like to have a way to block transfer from industry to station
22:33:57 <Taede> even if theres no cargo to load
22:37:05 <_dp_> h2h is a nice idea but that's not what I'm looking for
22:38:28 <_dp_> actually it's quite easy to do h2h without even patching client
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22:39:51 <_dp_> just rejecting all building commands on wrong side
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22:41:10 <frosch123> so, why don't you do your blocking on the server?
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22:41:23 <frosch123> only allow one station near secondary industries
22:41:37 <frosch123> and only allow players to have 3 unserviced stations at secondary industries
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22:41:40 <frosch123> or something like that
22:42:06 <_dp_> we do blocking for funded industries, that works ok
22:42:33 <_dp_> but doing that for every industry is too much imo, also can be cheated anyway
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22:44:35 <_dp_> probably better solution would be to screw with train orders to prevent it from loading
22:45:01 <frosch123> good luck with non-non-stop orders :p
22:46:39 <_dp_> yeah, that will be tricky to get right, but it's much closer to preventing taking cargo than land blocking
22:47:35 <_dp_> mb not even touch orders but constantly stop train
22:48:15 <_dp_> still quite ugly solition, would be much better if it was just built in game, with some error message showing even.
22:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <_dp_> don't think it can be removed if there is always a train waiting <-- GS can also send the trains to depot
23:00:05 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if there is a way to depot ;)
23:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> GS can also build a depot :p
23:01:06 <_dp_> ... not always either :P
23:01:49 <_dp_> anyway, I'm not saying it's completely impossible to do now, but still very tricky
23:04:11 <_dp_> patching ttd would probably be easier ;)
23:05:11 <_dp_> and much more clear for players
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23:07:05 <_dp_> ha, I know, if someone tries to steal I can just reset his company xD
23:07:44 <_dp_> modarator would eventualy do the same anyway :P
23:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so how do you imagine such a patch would look like?
23:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, the solution is fairly simple, change the ratings so the "stealer" gets 0% and thus no cargo, ever. but how do you determine who is stealing and who has a legitimate claim on the industry?
23:08:56 <_dp_> well, it needs a bit of thinking what is the best way to approach it
23:09:26 <_dp_> ye, one option is to add gs command to set station rating
23:09:46 <_dp_> and leave determening stealer for gs
23:10:34 <_dp_> other I just though of is to do some "sharing mode behaviour" switch for every industry (controllable with gs)
23:10:57 <_dp_> most flexible would be to add company mask for industry with some gs api
23:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> use the recolour bits :)
23:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (has the side effect that recolourable industries show the colour of the company that claimed them
23:15:18 <_dp_> also are they rly bits or just company id?
23:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how industries store this, but generally recolouring is an index into a list of tables
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