IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-17
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07:48:49 <Flygon> Most of the OpenTTD Wiki junctions
07:48:55 <Flygon> Are in zero way built for realistic acceleration x.x
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10:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> most of the wiki junctions i would never ever build
10:14:11 <V453000> nobody with brain would
10:14:30 <V453000> regardless if realistic or efficient brain
10:15:29 <Flygon> Then WHY are they on the Wiki?
10:15:45 <Flygon> As in, that's the word, to describe them
10:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: it's a wiki, fix it?
10:15:54 <Flygon> Not me repeating "Why are they on the Wiki"
10:16:11 <Flygon> My junctions go for aesthetic over practicality
10:16:16 <Flygon> I aim to make them look like IRL ones
10:16:25 <Flygon> The 'enhanced' cloverleaf is an exemptoon
10:17:16 <Flygon> There is, in theory, more efficient 'seamless' junctions for the same purpose
10:17:23 <Flygon> But they look far uglier
10:17:44 <Flygon> And would have one minor downside...
10:18:01 <Flygon> Less capacity, in edge circumstances
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14:39:45 <peter1138> ____oOOo__\\\ O ^ O ///__oOOo____
15:12:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r27399 trunk/Makefile.bundle.in (2015-09-17 15:12:21 +0200 )
15:12:29 <DorpsGek> -Fix: [Makefile] game script directory and compat*.nut were never installed on *nix
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15:23:39 <jefferyw> help I am crashing with sound issues
15:23:54 <jefferyw> gdb backtrace included
15:25:42 <jefferyw> oh openttd in the repos is still 1.3.3
15:30:58 <FLHerne> Aargh, that's impressively ancient
15:31:40 <jefferyw> is this problem also ancient?
15:36:54 <jefferyw> I spot in this repo 1.5.1
15:37:06 <jefferyw> why is it not included in 14.04
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15:53:17 <jefferyw> well when a dev gets this message please push openttd 1.5.1 into the ubuntu universe repo and allow install on 14.04 trusty
15:53:50 <jefferyw> and take a look at my backtrace from gdb
15:56:17 <planetmaker> jefferyw ... hm... we can't do anything about that. Nor is the backtrace really that helpful...
15:56:26 <planetmaker> everything stripped
15:56:49 <planetmaker> and of course he left :S
15:57:37 <wito> I'm using FISH and ECS, and I cannot for the -life- of me stabilize the rating for an oilrig at above 72 %
15:58:32 <wito> And I cannot figure out what the problem is.
15:59:05 <wito> I have 6 ships, timetabled so they arrive 20 days apart, staying for 40 days to load.
15:59:11 <wito> They're slow, but still, come on!
15:59:14 <planetmaker> do the ECS docs say anything?
16:04:00 <planetmaker> dunno. It can control it
16:04:30 <planetmaker> Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
16:14:21 <wito> Well, I've managed to turn my transport network all higgledy-piggledy anyway, so will probably start anew.
16:14:33 <wito> Avoiding oil rigs in favor of oil fields
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18:42:01 <frosch123> sometimes i have no words for what is happening in the chat log
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18:48:36 <planetmaker> what leaves you so speechless, frosch123 ? :)
18:49:19 <frosch123> the guy running openttd in a debugger, then manually interrupting the process, getting the backtrace at whatever point ottd was running, and then reporting it as a crash backtrace
18:50:25 <frosch123> he probably heard that you need backtraces for crash reports, and googled how to create a backtrace, but not understanding that there is a relation between crash and backtrace :p
18:52:21 <frosch123> it's like replacing the fuse in your house, when the light of your car doesn't work
18:53:16 <planetmaker> might work for a Tesla in need of a re-charge :P
18:53:47 <frosch123> i thought you can charge them for free when you do some extra detour, so it counts as long distance travel
18:57:08 <planetmaker> dunno.. I never drove one nor am I currently in the position to afford one :)
18:57:48 <frosch123> you cannot afford to buy one or you cannot afford to steal one? :p
19:03:45 <wito> "This timetable will take 1,408 days to complete"
19:04:19 <frosch123> does it include the construction of the engine?
19:05:18 <frosch123> or the schooling of the driver?
19:05:56 <wito> Nope. Just a 677 day leg.
19:06:17 <wito> But it's at 60 km/h, so a few years down the road it'll improve.
19:07:29 <frosch123> @calc 1408*24*60 / 1000
19:10:31 <wito> One 20th of the way around the earth.
19:10:36 <frosch123> well, it's about 7 times to the moon, not sure whether that is enough to reach mars
19:11:05 <frosch123> wito: did you miss the "/ 1000"
19:11:36 <wito> God damned unit-less calculator!
19:11:43 * wito shakes his fist in the air.
19:14:58 <wito> But "only" about a hundreth of the mean distance between Earth and Mars.
19:26:13 <planetmaker> frosch123, either would be the best choice now :P
19:26:46 <Rubidium> wito: just imagine how big a 4096x4096 map would be with those calculations ;)
19:27:55 <wito> Well, my 677 day thing is about 1600 tiles.
19:28:16 <planetmaker> as to distances... 7 times the moon is tiny compared to earth-mars distance :)
19:28:22 <wito> So let's say 1000 days for 2048 tiles, 2000 for the full 4096
19:28:31 <planetmaker> 400.000 vs. 150.000.000.000
19:28:43 <planetmaker> well. add *7 on the left hand side
19:29:04 <frosch123> yeah, i stopped when i did not know how far it is to the mars, but i probably should have guessed that it is more than 7 times :p
19:29:25 <planetmaker> the distance varies. And... a straight line is not quickest anyway :)
19:29:34 <wito> According to these calculations.
19:29:47 <planetmaker> quickest possible way is around 4...5 months travel
19:29:49 <wito> The area of a 4096**2 map is...
19:30:04 <wito> One and a half times the surface area of the sun.
19:31:02 <Rubidium> well, it's fairly simple... a tile is 668x668 km
19:31:41 <planetmaker> 1000 tiles thus are the radius of the sun :)
19:32:00 <wito> It's only 1.2 times the surface area of the sun.
19:33:14 <wito> I prefer (668 km * 4096) ** 2, but whatever floats your boat. :)
19:34:11 <Rubidium> likewise, a 4096 tile map is 7 times the distance to the moon ;)
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19:36:56 <Rubidium> but yes, the standard reply to people asking for 8192x8192 maps is asking whether they really need five times the surface area of the sun
19:40:07 <wito> The scale is kind of messed up, tho'. :P
19:41:31 <wito> Because the roads are _clearly_ not 668 km wide. P:
19:42:01 <Taede> not to mention towns the size of countries
19:42:16 <wito> Towns the size of _Earth_
19:42:21 <wito> city blocks the size of countries.
19:43:04 <frosch123> how much does it slow the rotation of the earth, if you cover the surface with buildings that tall? :p
19:43:49 <Taede> on earth, it would be problematic
19:43:53 <Taede> dyson sphere would cope
19:44:26 <wito> Well, at a rough estimate the taller end of buildings in OpenTTD is what, 4 or 5 tiles wide?
19:46:01 <frosch123> sounds like you need to dig up a lot of lava to build them :p
19:47:08 <wito> I'm guessing that the effect would be roughly similar in magnitude to the slowing effect of the moon.
19:51:53 <frosch123> really? i would guess it halfes the speed
19:52:20 <frosch123> i think we are talking about moving half the mass of the earth to twice the distance from center
19:53:35 <wito> What kind of density are you working with?
19:54:56 <frosch123> i am not sure how much a m³ of house weights :p
19:55:20 <wito> I think 1 is a reasonable estimate.
19:55:25 <wito> Somewhere between 1 and maybe 3?
19:55:39 <frosch123> there is a lot of air in a house :)
19:55:51 <frosch123> though maybe not in the upper levels :p
19:55:52 <wito> Although if it's built like some kind of as ship, it'd have to be less than 1.
19:56:17 <wito> But let's say 1 exactly.
19:56:41 <frosch123> also assuming the houses touches on the ground, there will be some distance between houses at the top :p
19:57:00 <wito> That would make it a lot like freezing the Earth's oceans and building a skyscraper from teh ice.
19:57:24 <wito> In terms of how much it is.
19:58:49 <frosch123> well, but 3000 km thick
19:59:06 <frosch123> the ocean is like 20 km in the deepest spot :p
19:59:08 <wito> 3000 km tall, 668 * 668 km at the base.
19:59:30 <wito> It's one 4000th of the mass of the earth.
20:03:37 <wito> But a whole town would -seriously- slow down the earth.
20:10:35 <wito> It'd pretty rapidly collapse in on itself.
20:11:28 <frosch123> well, you also reduce gravity, don't you?
20:14:40 <wito> And it's all the same mass, so the total gravitational attraction stays the same.
20:14:56 <wito> The Earth -really- wants to be round.
20:16:50 <planetmaker> you need 70.000 km high skyscraper with sufficient (inner) strength ;)
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20:17:20 <planetmaker> geo-stationary orbit is at 35.000km. Then it carries its own weight. But the tension...
20:18:24 <planetmaker> though... that only works with a mostly mass-less 'rope' instead of a thing with signifiant fraction of the Earth's mass
20:20:01 <andythenorth> ah fuck it, FIRS is borked anyway for stable players
20:20:08 <andythenorth> I might as well merge the v2 branch to default
20:20:13 <andythenorth> then at least I can get translations
20:22:29 <andythenorth> are branch merges scary on hg
20:22:32 <andythenorth> let’s find out :P
20:22:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: repo has backups, right? :P
20:23:58 <planetmaker> we do have some backups, yes... What you want to do?
20:24:11 <andythenorth> I am going to merge the ‘snakebite’ branch of FIRS into ‘default'
20:24:14 <andythenorth> should be clean, but eh
20:24:26 <andythenorth> I tend to break hg because I use it as though it’s git
20:24:36 <andythenorth> I used to break it because I used it like svn :P
20:24:50 <planetmaker> well. you do it locally first anyway. So if it breaks, it breaks on your machine. Then simply clone anew
20:25:34 <andythenorth> seems to have worked
20:25:39 <planetmaker> though I don't see what can break in a merge except you getting results you don't want due to making the merge the wrong way or so :)
20:25:46 <andythenorth> now eints will pick it up
20:25:49 <planetmaker> or using the wrong merge algo :)
20:26:02 <andythenorth> or error between keyboard and chair :P
20:26:07 <andythenorth> it’s ok it went fine
20:26:16 <andythenorth> I have been merging default into snakebite regularly
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20:26:48 <peter1138> i figured it would be useful to have a changelog in my repo
20:26:48 <andythenorth> I am sad that FIRS is currently non-available on bananas for most players, but eh
20:26:56 <andythenorth> you have a repo? :o
20:27:17 <peter1138> except it turns out it's a major pain, because you end up with conflicts on any merge purely because of the changelog entries...
20:28:01 <andythenorth> try having language files around
20:28:08 <andythenorth> with an extraction date baked into the file :(
20:28:51 <peter1138> yeah, similar pointless thing :)
20:29:00 <andythenorth> changelog goes in the milestone branch, not the feature branch :P
20:29:12 <andythenorth> or go big, put it straight into master
20:30:20 <wito> Or build a changelog from commit messages at some time down the road.
20:31:32 <peter1138> wito, yeah basically that
20:32:34 <andythenorth> who made eints UI :P
20:32:52 <andythenorth> and also, non-retina icons :(
20:33:16 <peter1138> someone get me a roland juno-ds
20:40:13 <andythenorth> the problem with eints
20:40:18 <andythenorth> is that the developers got bored
20:40:22 <andythenorth> and moved on to other things
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20:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> yeah, i stopped when i did not know how far it is to the mars, but i probably should have guessed that it is more than 7 times :p <-- i'd estimate something in the order of 0,5 to 1,5 AU, depending on positions
20:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> or the other estimate is, assuming the distribution of the inner planets is fairly even, the radius of the orbits are 0,3; 0,6; 1; 1,3
20:46:22 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 0.5 and 2.5 ;)
20:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i do think i meant to write that
20:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but something interfered inbetween my thought and my writing
20:50:14 <andythenorth> I find it’s my thoughts that interfere with my writing :(
20:52:44 <wito> Interplanetary distance is unimaginably large.
20:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there are still different levels of unimaginable :p
20:53:53 <wito> It's nowhere near as unimaginable as -interstellar- distance.
20:54:00 <andythenorth> I think it’s similar unimaginable to having your first child, newborn, and imagining them being 3 years old
20:54:33 <andythenorth> to travel that journey just takes time, but at the start you have no idea of the distance to cover
20:54:57 <andythenorth> translate distance to time, it’s easy
20:55:05 <andythenorth> try and imagine it as a visual measurement, impossible
20:58:45 <frosch123> what does the creator of font awesome think about font awesome?
21:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> but yes, the standard reply to people asking for 8192x8192 maps is asking whether they really need five times the surface area of the sun <-- but people that want that usually also want daylength, which reduces this size again
21:05:59 <Rubidium> hmm, depending on your definition of daylength maybe ;)
21:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, assuming vehicle movement stays by ticks, then the time a vehicle needs from one edge to the other (in days) shrinks
21:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so, also the distance between the edges shrinks
21:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so an 8192^2 map with daylength 32 has the same size as a 256^2 map with daylength 1
21:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> does that make any sense?
21:09:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: what size is a 4kx4k map at daylength factor 38000?
21:10:54 <frosch123> is "wales" the "42" answer to all geological things?
21:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> is "wales" the english equivalent of "saarland"?
21:11:50 <frosch123> @calc 668*4096 / 38900
21:11:50 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 70.3374807198
21:12:25 <frosch123> i agree, 4kx4k maps are way too small if you want to play r-ish
21:12:31 <wito> And I think Eddi|zuHause has it.
21:12:41 <wito> Wales ≈ Saarland, that is.
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21:13:28 <wito> Geograph is measured in cricket pitches, Waleses and UKs.
21:13:52 <frosch123> earlier you used suns
21:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's frequently used when comparing sizes. like "a forest area 5 times the size of saarland is on fire"
21:14:58 <wito> "The map is 2 million times the size of wales" doesn't really gel. :P
21:15:11 <wito> Oh, I'm sorry, did I say 2 million?
21:15:17 <wito> I meant 2 hundred million.
21:16:18 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: only that fire would be a fourth the size of Wales or ten times the size of the province of Utrecht ;)
21:17:07 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: is berlin actually bigger than saarland?
21:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know?
21:17:48 <frosch123> saarland is 3 times as big
21:17:48 <Rubidium> 3 Berlins ~= 1 Saarland
21:18:08 <frosch123> saarland is even bigger than berlin, hamburg and bremen together :p
21:18:52 <Rubidium> only because Bremen is so small ;)
21:19:21 <__ln__> is saarland "the size of texas"?
21:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, bavaria is the german texas
21:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (except that texas is like 5 times the size of germany)
21:20:34 <Rubidium> 10 times Bavaria would probably be a better match
21:21:13 <frosch123> wasn't there some forum thread that texas has more rail kilometers than the uk
21:21:24 <frosch123> which resulted in many insulted brittish people?
21:21:49 <Rubidium> Germany is only half the size of Texas
21:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 2, 5, ... what's the difference
21:22:26 <Rubidium> frosch123: and that with so much third rail in the UK and so little electrification in Texas!
21:23:22 <Rubidium> being good vs deficient ;)
21:23:31 <Rubidium> or at least for some German gradings
21:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about the quantity, but about the quality. and we all know that britain is famous for its high quality rail system!
21:23:46 <Rubidium> wheras in the Netherlands either is a failing grade...
21:24:10 <frosch123> Rubidium: classes 11 and up use 1 to 15 points
21:24:19 <frosch123> at least when i was in school
21:24:39 <frosch123> on that scale both 2 and 5 are somewhat bad :)
21:24:54 <frosch123> though actually 5 is "enough"
21:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: even then, the german 5 is probably better than the dutch 5 :p
21:25:42 * Rubidium hopes maths teachers in Germany don't use a linear grading scale then
21:25:59 <Rubidium> as in: 30% right, you get a 5
21:27:06 <frosch123> i was involved in an exam on statistics for engineers, which had an exponential dristribution in grades
21:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, the 15 points are the 5 grades split into 3 more, so 1=15/14/13, 2=12/11/10, etc. with 5=3/2/1 and 6=0
21:27:30 <frosch123> 1/2 failed the test, 1/4 got worst passing grade, 1/8 the second worst passing grade, ...
21:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 points is the minimum for "pass", which usually is 50%
21:29:32 <Rubidium> here grades go from 1 to 10, where a 6 is "pass" although grades are given/accounted behind the decimal and the "pass" is determined on the rounded so effectively a 5.5 is a passing grade
21:30:03 <frosch123> why do you have multiple grades for fail?
21:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> teachers here typically have some leeway of rounding between .4 and .6
21:30:27 <Rubidium> depending on the subject and education level the amount you need to know to pass differs (which annoyed me somewhat)
21:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so in that range they can either give the lower or higher grade
21:31:18 <Rubidium> frosch123: because apparantly knowing 0% for 3 tests and then 100% for 1 is deemed worse than knowing 50% for 3 tests and 100% for 1 test
21:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> teachers often give the lower grade on the half-year report, and the higher on the end-year report
21:33:18 <Rubidium> in any case... where I went to school for maths you got some points if you got things partially right and you needed 50% right for a passing grade, whereas you needed 80% right and misspelling a single word wrong in an answer gave you no points for that answer for some of the languages... (wonder why I was annoyed by that)
21:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> also, if too many people fail a test, teachers can adjust the scale, so the average grade gets higher
21:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> languages were a nightmare... you could write the most beautiful essay of all times, but if spelling is atrocious (you get a 6 in spelling quite easily), then the total grade can at best be a 4
21:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> although, this was usually the other way around for me, very little spelling mistakes, but terrible content :p
21:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but, how did we get here from mars?
21:43:31 <Rubidium> some weird links my brain occasionally makes
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22:05:34 <frosch123> depends whether it is blue
22:06:25 <andythenorth> how big is blue cat?
22:06:42 <wito> I dunno. On this system cat is 47K
22:06:56 <frosch123> about the size of a one-family house
22:07:45 <frosch123> though it fits on the roof rack of an average car
22:07:48 <andythenorth> how big is space cat?
22:07:53 <frosch123> so, maybe not as big
22:08:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: noone knows, it's still expanding
22:10:40 <andythenorth> unimaginably large
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22:16:27 <Rubidium> arguably smaller than one cubic tile
22:18:52 <wito> The -Moon- is arguably smaller than cubic tile!
22:19:03 <wito> (No, it actually isn't. But you get my point.)
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22:31:54 <wito> Why -don't- we have daylength?
22:32:46 <wito> I didn't realize reasons.
22:32:47 <andythenorth> partly it’s just a terrible idea
22:32:50 <wito> I should haev guessed. P
22:33:45 <wito> Okay, see, "It's just a terrible idea" isn't any more informative than "because reasons".
22:34:39 <Rubidium> want to influence the length of a day? Just adjust the speed of your computer's clock
22:34:42 <planetmaker> partly because no-one came up with a good concept how to handle *all* the interfaces of time
22:34:58 <Rubidium> the easiest way, and it doesn't mess up the economy
22:35:29 <planetmaker> change tick length... hm :)
22:36:11 <andythenorth> plenty have tried
22:36:15 <andythenorth> none have succeeded :P
22:39:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: it would also make the game "harder" :p
22:48:39 <andythenorth> why do they need it again?
22:52:19 <wito> Some poeple want longer games.
22:53:20 <andythenorth> max date is 5000000 or so
22:53:28 <andythenorth> how long do they need? :o
22:53:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: in "difficult" games you have to let the game run over night to accumulate enough money for the next train
22:54:11 <andythenorth> oh, like casual games on a tablet
22:54:20 <andythenorth> where you leave it overnight to ‘refuel'
22:54:23 <andythenorth> or you pay real money
22:54:51 <andythenorth> we should add that
22:55:56 <andythenorth> proceeds to be split proportionally between developers of all newgrfs used in game
22:56:04 <andythenorth> ratio to be: number of vehicles in newgrf
22:57:50 <frosch123> number of pixels :p
22:57:59 <frosch123> screentime per time
22:58:21 <andythenorth> I was thinking invert number of vehicles
22:58:30 <andythenorth> least vehicles gets most
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23:32:14 <wito> Some of us have joins/parts muted. P:
23:40:24 <peter1138> i boggle at amazon's deals on drinks
23:40:36 <peter1138> £24 for 6 tiny (330ml) bottles of beer... wtf?
23:45:35 <peter1138> heh discworld ales 330ml * 6 £17.59
23:45:41 <NGC3982> That's not even Swedish level pricing.
23:45:50 <peter1138> ... they're £1.20 from another site online
23:47:04 <wito> Doesn't sound particularly bad to mee.
23:47:12 <wito> Of course, I live in Norway.
23:47:27 <peter1138> more than double what i normally pay for 500ml bottles
23:47:53 <wito> So I'd probably guess at a price around 5 to 8 pounds per bottle, depending on location.
23:50:56 <NGC3982> Most 33cl "non standard" beer range from 2.3GBP to infinity.
23:51:10 <NGC3982> At the Swedish System Company.
23:52:04 <NGC3982> I usually go for <4GBP beer (per 33cl). Really good tasty micro brewery stuff usually end up at the 4GBP mark.
23:54:00 <wito> Yeah, the Norwegian Wine Monopoly is a little more expensive, and bars more expensive than that.
23:54:42 <NGC3982> Sierra Nevada and Barney Flat <3
23:57:10 <wito> Don't drink and play driving games!
continue to next day ⏵