IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-16
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01:24:16 <drac_boy> heh..hows the artist anyway? :)
01:26:53 <drac_boy> seem like you been busy with a lot of graphics these months no?
01:27:52 <Pikka> now and then. and busy with other things too.
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08:24:42 <Flygon> Every time I see Pikka's avatar
08:24:47 <Flygon> I become hungry for Cheese
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09:31:53 <wito> Note to self: Idea: TerraGen city placement tuning: Central, xy on normal distribution; Random, current; Even, xy on uniform distribution.
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10:33:00 <Pikka> hello Wolf01 and Flygon and andythenorth
10:35:08 <andythenorth> how is Brisbanes?
10:37:14 * andythenorth is all about Brisbane again today
10:37:52 <Pikka> well, it's the place to be. or at least a place to be.
10:38:16 <andythenorth> it’s the place to talk to on the phone
10:38:22 * andythenorth is done with that now though
10:38:33 <andythenorth> apparently you have thunderstorms in BNE
10:39:29 <andythenorth> did I mention NARS 2.5.1 is “Ultimate NARS” ?
10:39:41 <andythenorth> much better to use a grf I don’t have to fix myself :P
10:40:33 <andythenorth> can you make FIRS please also?
10:40:47 <andythenorth> I keep adding bugs to it
10:41:07 <Pikka> I will add bugs to pineapple RVs or something
10:41:30 <andythenorth> I have a buggy RV set already
10:41:44 <andythenorth> I don’t see the upside for me in your offer, tbh
10:42:10 <Pikka> but you already have FIRS also too as well
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10:44:44 <peter1138> so if you were to start ottd from scratch... how would you start?
10:45:49 <Pikkaphone> I would start by posting a survey on my blog, maybe next week?
10:45:51 <andythenorth> is this a serious question, or a contest for best trolling answer?
10:47:00 <andythenorth> the trolling answer is “look at Simutrans, P1SIM, Train Fever etc and do the opposite”
10:47:14 <andythenorth> cos for whatever reason, they haven’t won
10:47:40 <andythenorth> my serious answers would be: make a list of things that are definite NO
10:47:57 <andythenorth> so it doesn’t fail because it tries to be a total pony farm
10:48:02 <andythenorth> and stick to C++
10:48:08 <andythenorth> not language du jour
10:48:57 <andythenorth> and IMO the game is about building routes, that’s where the fun is
10:49:04 <andythenorth> everything else is secondary, or BAD FEATURE
10:50:42 <andythenorth> the game works, and as an open source project it has basically won massively
10:50:58 <andythenorth> so any new version can’t be “oh we got it all wrong, we need to rethink"
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10:56:10 <wito> Oh! Build it from the ground up on a server-client architecture.
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10:56:57 <Pikkaphone2> on the other hand, why recreate openttd if openttd is already so good? Why not make something new?
10:57:25 <wito> But if you're gonna, you know?
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10:58:35 <andythenorth> Pikkaphone2 Pikkaphone3 Pikkaphone that also (something new)
10:59:19 <wito> Pikkaphone3: Pikka nick and stick with it!
10:59:25 <andythenorth> casual game, more like Pocket Trains
10:59:45 * andythenorth must to shower for a bit
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11:01:29 <Pikkaphone4> it's probably the storm
11:05:20 <wito> This is getting out of hand.
11:10:13 <wito> Why would some of my trains take the up road and some take the down road in a spaghetti junction?
11:11:10 <wito> And some trains use the underpass, and some go over the hills.
11:12:50 <wito> (Well, not the exact same design, I use PBS, but pretty similar.
11:21:11 <andythenorth> peter1138: you thinking of a re-implementation? o_O
11:59:29 <wito> Well, with the logs and whatnots, ...
11:59:39 <wito> Besides, other people might be interested in hearing your answer.
12:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> he somewhat regularly does that :p
12:06:02 <wito> andythenorth hits and runs?
12:06:09 <wito> Or peter1138 reimplements OpenTTD?
12:08:57 * wito thwaps Eddi|zuHause with a cat.
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12:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone else has this problem that steam hangs with 100% cpu when telling it to update?
12:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no, steam, i don't want to give you my phone number.
12:15:10 <peter1138> and no, no concrete plans, just idly wondering
12:16:16 <wito> Something like tweaking where cities are generated with TerraGen, what would that take?
12:16:34 <peter1138> problem with client-server is you'll always end up with data duplication
12:16:50 <peter1138> fine for mp but crappy for sp
12:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> <wito> Why would some of my trains take the up road and some take the down road in a spaghetti junction? <-- that question doesn't make any sense
12:18:00 <wito> But all right, it might be poorly phrased.
12:18:19 <wito> Look at the bottom image in the link I .. well, linked.
12:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the picture you showed doesn't offer any path alternatives, so either you didn't use that junction, or you did something horrible to it
12:18:47 <peter1138> there are no roads in that picture
12:20:41 <wito> But my point is: There is a tunnel underpass for trains going straight through, and the left turning tracks that allow passage straight through as well.
12:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i think i looked at the wrong picture
12:21:03 <wito> Some trains go over, via the turning tracks, and some use the underpass.
12:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that can happen if the path is still occupied by another train when making the decision
12:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the reservation will induce a heavier penalty than the few turns
12:22:30 <peter1138> best solution: don't use a crappy junction like that, make your own custom stuff.
12:22:43 <peter1138> and don't be scared of path signals
12:22:52 <wito> You say "when making the decision".
12:23:08 <wito> Is the decision made earlier than I might expect?
12:23:54 <wito> Anyway, the junction I -actually- use is a bit different from the image.
12:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use path signals, the decision is made upon passing the last signal before the junction, and if using block signals, it's made exactly on entering the junction tile
12:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, it may be on entering the tile before the last signal, with path signals
12:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (so if the signal can't turn green, you have one tile to make a full stop)
12:29:50 <peter1138> where are the trains?
12:30:05 <wito> Well, there aren't any in the junction right now.
12:31:49 <wito> Actually, that's not true.
12:31:59 <wito> There's one on the east-bound turning track.
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12:43:56 <wito> Anyway, I get the sense that the junction might be over-signalled, is that just me being paranoid?
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12:53:19 <Wolf01> i would put only 4 signals in that junction, at the entrances of the lines
12:56:56 <wito> Wouldn't that impact capacity under load?
12:58:06 <Wolf01> i usually play eyecandy, not scrooge mcduck mode
12:58:22 <Wolf01> so, 4-8 trains per line
12:59:56 <Wolf01> also my junctions are just plain, no tunnels or bridges if not really needed
13:00:41 <Wolf01> and if i need money, i purchase one or two aircrafts :P
13:21:05 <wito> It's nicely sized for 5 tile trains, and you can't see from that picture, but it's aligned so that a 2x2 grid city can grow around it neatly.
13:21:14 <wito> With minimal interruption to the city.
13:22:12 <dlhero> do you have any pictures about it?
13:22:49 <dlhero> i usually do 7length*5platforms on the city's line and start doing long distances
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13:26:07 * andythenorth has problems generally with Steam :(
13:27:03 <wito> The four southern tracks is the inter-city, the two northern are local service.
13:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really have problems with steam, except for this self-update
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14:47:56 <Flygon> Y'all make amazing junctions
14:48:01 <Flygon> Meanwhile mine are boring af
14:48:19 <Flygon> I just end up building for speed
14:48:29 <Flygon> Which, given OTTD's idiosyncracies
14:48:46 <Flygon> Tends to lead to me building complicated cloverleafs rather than high capacity junctions
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14:52:00 <planetmaker> cloverleaves are... big and slow :)
15:06:08 <Sylf> big and slow is coop's style. *shameless plug*
15:09:51 <Flygon> planetmaker: I find it hard to find other 'compact' 4 way interchanges that're high seed (as in... 5 tile long straights)
15:10:03 <Flygon> That, and, they can tend to look elegant if done right
15:10:30 <Flygon> Half the problem is that you can't build bridges horizontally or vertically
15:10:37 <planetmaker> Flygon, depending on the engine you use and on the actual train length, it may vary a lot on how long straight stretches need to be
15:11:09 <Flygon> My HSTs tend to be EMUs doing 200km/h+ around 7-14 tiles long
15:11:26 <Flygon> Depending on where on the map
15:11:38 <Flygon> The interchanges will be very compact and need a lot of thinking through
15:11:44 <Flygon> Or simply be non-weaving cloverleafs
15:12:14 <planetmaker> design also depends on your average signal distance
15:12:16 <Flygon> Lemme try and show an example
15:13:08 <Flygon> So hard to adjust to the camera after being used to Ragnarok Online
15:17:11 <Flygon> You can tell I haven't been on OTTD for a while
15:17:19 <Flygon> Any specific new features?
15:18:35 <Flygon> Now to eliminate weaving
15:19:52 <Flygon> This idea's falling apart as I type
15:19:58 <Flygon> Because it still has some weaving
15:20:03 <Flygon> This is why I don't write the Wiki
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15:26:14 <planetmaker> Flygon, the cloverleaf in the first one is totally fine: it doesn't cause any join before split. And depending on trains might also be fast enough
15:26:23 <planetmaker> but a bridge in the other line would still be shorter :)
15:28:41 <wito> My bane is the ever-elusive station.
15:29:10 <wito> I've yet to settle on a design I -really- like for stations.
15:29:45 <Flygon> Eliminating the weaving
15:29:49 <Flygon> Makes the cloverleaf utterly massive
15:30:18 <Flygon> But allows for far more 'buffering'...
15:31:21 <planetmaker> I find it most compelling that you define 'openttd' as a form of art though ;)
15:31:31 <planetmaker> most people probably would call it 'game' :P
15:31:50 <Flygon> You don't want to know what's inside the actuall /Art/ folder
15:32:00 <V453000> especially if you build something as shitty as a cloverleaf, it has nothing to do with art :P
15:32:23 <Flygon> I built the least shitty cloverleaf ever!
15:32:49 <Flygon> It could be improved if I upgraded parts of the quad to sex, but
15:33:04 <Flygon> 1. It'd be overkill for double track
15:33:15 <Flygon> 2. I'm not aiming for orgasmic :B
15:36:24 <Flygon> It's WAY more aesthetically pleasing, and has more effective capacity
15:37:20 <alluke> roro terminuses dont please me :P
15:37:47 <alluke> loading stuff onto trains is usually impossible
15:38:59 <Flygon> Don't set it to "Full Load
15:39:39 <alluke> i mean that the forklifts cannot accerss the trains
15:40:12 <alluke> before i do anything i think would it work irl :P
15:41:06 <Flygon> It's used for things like Mineral/Coal transfers
15:43:30 <alluke> yeah, they just require building roads to each platform
15:43:53 <Flygon> That's generally why most RoRo terminuse IRL have just one platform
15:44:35 <andythenorth> wtf are all these junctions anyway
15:44:39 <Sylf> terminus to me means dead-end starion
15:44:40 <andythenorth> why don’t my games have these problems?
15:45:32 <Sylf> 1. people build on absolute flat maps
15:45:43 <Flygon> The train stops, and unloads or loads
15:45:47 <Flygon> Then continues on forwards
15:45:54 <Flygon> Most games I play are based on IRL maps x:
15:45:56 <Sylf> 2. copy-paste-able constructs
15:46:30 <Sylf> i never see cloverleaf rail junctions irl
15:46:44 <Flygon> That's because they're pointless IRL
15:46:53 <Sylf> unless you tell me i've been living in a cave
15:46:56 <alluke> all multilevel rail junctions i know are two-way
15:46:56 <Flygon> IRL, we can build curved multi-stacked bridges
15:47:06 <Flygon> In OpenTTD, this is impossible
15:47:43 <Sylf> wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary
15:48:32 <Flygon> I'm not saying OpenTTD doesn't have more 'efficient' methods
15:48:42 <Flygon> I just think a lot of them look bad
15:49:01 * Flygon uploading a screenshot
15:54:20 <alluke> looks very similar to mine
15:54:49 <alluke> those "city networks" at that page make me cry
15:54:52 <Flygon> Aiming to be as realistic as possible?
15:54:54 <alluke> the cities are totally raped
15:55:05 <Flygon> Granted, mine don't look very American
15:55:10 <Flygon> I modelled after Australian example x:
15:55:14 <Flygon> Hence the driving on the Left
15:55:21 <Flygon> I'd be confused if I tried to account for driving to the right
15:57:32 <Flygon> I tend to aim for 7 tiles long in preplanning
15:57:41 <Flygon> Even if the initial stations are just 3-4 tiles long...
15:57:53 <Flygon> This means I have very hard-to-plan hilly lines
15:58:10 <alluke> placing station is the hardest thing
16:00:13 <Flygon> Also means that I tend to have a LOT of ghost branchlines
16:01:25 <Flygon> Kinda like American ghost offramps xp
16:02:08 <Flygon> Some of my favorite games though
16:02:16 <Flygon> Are those where I've built freeways
16:02:22 <Flygon> They look very natural
16:08:00 <Flygon> Found the savegame I was looking for where I had a full cloverleaf
16:08:13 <Flygon> It turns out I simplified the exchange to make it smaller and have less directions
16:08:52 <Flygon> I found my FINLAND game
16:10:39 <Flygon> I should probably just
16:10:44 <Flygon> Give you the .sav file alluke
16:10:51 * andythenorth must to leave this channel
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16:10:55 <Flygon> Because a screenshot won't do it justice
16:11:31 <Flygon> I keep losing my OpenTTD saves
16:11:42 <Flygon> Because the OpenTTD saves aren't kept in the OpenTTD root folder
16:11:47 <Flygon> Default to My Documents
16:11:53 <Flygon> And whenever I change PCs
16:11:59 <Flygon> I don't copy over My Documents
16:12:11 <Flygon> Because my entire life, I never used them because I thought they were stupid
16:12:21 <Flygon> But apperantly it's now a requirement for modern PC apps to use My Documents
16:12:27 <Flygon> And I take it as a personal insult
16:12:51 <Flygon> Being made to use My Documents actually feels like an insult to my intelligence by Microsoft
16:14:52 <alluke> all your metros are overground
16:15:08 <Sylf> change where openttd.cfg is located
16:15:27 <Sylf> put that in your openttd root folfer
16:15:35 <Flygon> alluke: Nah, not always
16:15:46 <Flygon> Just with the Finland game, it was far easier to make work
16:15:48 <Sylf> and you get saves in the root folder too
16:15:50 <Flygon> Also I was feeling Japanesa
16:16:56 <Flygon> Note the flat junctions, too x:
16:19:07 <Flygon> My network building techniques have improved since then
16:19:39 <alluke> those river-lakes are nice
16:19:56 <Flygon> Finland aint the land o the lakes for nothing
16:20:01 <Flygon> Shame they're not useful for shipping
16:20:15 <alluke> connect them with canals
16:20:25 <peter1138> i should try playing ottd some time
16:20:30 <Flygon> Finland's just too sparsely populated
16:20:37 <Flygon> By the time the bigger lakes WOULD be useful
16:20:47 <Flygon> I'dve had heavy rail used to fill where ships would've been good
16:21:33 <Flygon> What I REALLY want to do
16:21:37 <alluke> southeast finland has much inland waterway traffic
16:21:52 <Flygon> Is have a 4096*4096 map of Victoria, centralized on Melbourne
16:22:03 <Flygon> And try to create my own vision of the transit network...
16:22:14 <Flygon> As in, have a very very detailed Melbourne ect
16:22:27 <Flygon> Like that map with London and it's suburbs visible
16:24:46 <Flygon> Amusingly, this would've been a great map for ships
16:24:57 <Flygon> Hovercraft weren't available in 1835 when I built the network
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17:02:31 <KrunchyAl> where is FIRS in bananas?
17:03:11 <alluke__> it has disappeared from there
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17:21:25 <V453000> stable does not support it
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17:36:49 <alluke__> my train needs bigger loco
17:36:59 <alluke__> it cannot keep the 80kmh top speed on uphills
17:42:45 <Flygon> You're missing the correct solution
17:42:58 <Flygon> Add more Loco until it works correctly
17:43:09 <alluke__> i would but the length is limited :P
17:45:17 <Flygon> Tim Tayloring stuff always works
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20:30:48 <TrueBrain> I am going to move our "Gateway" VM from one machine to the other; sadly this means all TCP connections to openttd.org will be interrupted, and openttd.org will be unreachable for ~5 minutes (depending how long it takes for OVH to migrate the failover IP to the new machine, basically). Doing my best to keep it as small as possible, the downtime :)
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21:09:37 * andythenorth roams in flyspray, gets bored
21:09:44 <andythenorth> it’s not actually very dramatic any more
21:09:55 <andythenorth> some OOM, some reasonable-but-not-happening-ever requests
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21:12:50 <andythenorth> it’s cdist behaving correctly
21:13:01 <andythenorth> use ‘no loading'
21:18:56 <andythenorth> really, he needs to know refit costs as a finances item?
21:19:10 <andythenorth> how do I employ people with such fantastic attention to detail :O
21:25:04 * andythenorth looks at commits
21:27:54 <andythenorth> meh, nothing that proves the issue was fixed
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22:00:14 <andythenorth> how would I use git.openttd.org to check if industry limit is increased in 1.5.2?
22:00:41 <andythenorth> cos we’re using svn-style tags, and I don’t understand how to use those :)
22:03:50 <Alberth> find the increasing commit, then see if it's in 1.5.0
22:06:01 <andythenorth> can’t find it in the changelogs
22:07:11 <andythenorth> I could just test the binary with FIRS and see if it breaks :P
22:07:18 <andythenorth> but I need to set a min. version for Bananas
22:07:29 <andythenorth> I’d rather be accurate
22:13:00 <andythenorth> ok so industry limit isn’t increased in 1.5.x
22:13:11 <andythenorth> which is why I can’t find it in changelogs :)
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