IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-15
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00:15:55 <wito> How do you make timetables less of a pain in the neck to manage throughout the train speed upgrade cycle?
00:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> well, either you delete it and start from scratch, or you adjust all times by x% depending on how much faster the trains are
00:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which needs to be done one-by-one
00:19:00 <wito> I notice there's an automatic "weak" autofill now.
00:19:23 <wito> Which shows how long the train actually took, but only when no time is set.
00:21:17 <wito> Could that maybe be shown even if a time _is_ set? Like "Travel for 45 days (+3)" or "Travel for 45 days (took 48)", to make updating timetables easier?
00:22:10 <wito> (Well, that's an example of a traffic jam, not a faster train, but you get the idea.)
00:26:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree, that would be useful
00:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few timetable patches on the forum
00:32:23 <wito> Generational train car autoupgrade.
00:33:31 <wito> Some train sets, like the Japan Set, has several generations of PAX wagons and mail wagons, with different speed limits and capacities, but because they're all just 'passenger car', they can't be autoreplaces.
00:33:43 <wito> From one generation to the next.
00:34:25 <wito> Although I suppose it could be argued that the GRF is broken for doing it that way.
00:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a known problematic clash of systems
00:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> especially older sets tried to have as few vehicles as possible, because number of IDs was very limited
00:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> now, you can just have a bunch of different passenger cars, instead of upgrading the same model with different stats
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00:51:12 <drac_boy> sorry if this is maybe a bit OT but how popular (and long-lasting) were these kind of electric locomotives that had the big traction motor mounted within the body? (rather than the then-typical later axle-slung ones)
01:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> only the first few test engines had those, and they were usually discontinued very quickly
01:11:10 <Eddi|zuHause> bavaria adopted the axle-motors with its first high speed series ES 1 (later called E16). prussia hold on to the system with bigger motors and rod transmission a bit longer, but the E06, which was purchased at the same time as the E16 didn't make it past WWII, whereas the E16 was used until like the '80s
01:13:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem that the prussian electric networks were in silesia (belonged to poland after WWII), and in east germany (had to remove electric equipment for war reparations) didn't help either
01:13:05 <drac_boy> thanks for letting me know it probably wasn't me lacking language translations .. I had suspected the actual numbers might be a bit low but wasn't too certain
01:13:23 * drac_boy goes to look some bavaria images still
01:15:12 <drac_boy> btw about bavaria I really like the S3/6 and Gt 2x4/4 when it comes to their steam locomotives
01:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> for slower services, the large motor+rods system was used a bit more, like the E77 and E91
01:15:21 <drac_boy> but these were quite big examples for in their class :)
01:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> E91 is a freight locomotive, and E77 a hybrid passenger/freight locomotive
01:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also the E52
01:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> all those purchased around the same time, right after WWI
01:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> during the hyperinflation
01:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the technique was already pretty outdated by then, as the engines were actually ordered before WWI, but delivery was delayed
01:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the next generation (E17, E04, E44) already had the axle motors
01:20:12 <drac_boy> and are these exposed transformer assembly toward the left end of the body
01:20:47 <drac_boy> crazy, I never did ever think they would build a locomotive like that till you had me looking up prussian (which I never thought of)
01:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the test engines i meant
01:21:32 <drac_boy> interesting that the traction siderod goes inside the body instead of staying on the outside
01:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the diagonal rod is connected to the motor
01:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> which is inside the body
01:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> ES9-19 is basically the first "series"
01:26:44 <drac_boy> theres always also the few heavy train locomotives with the motor mounted almost horizontal with the standard siderods (but more than often still using its own rod attachment for good reason) .. the swiss crocodile is probably one easy example of that
01:30:47 <drac_boy> either way like I mentioned earlier on, thanks still :)
01:33:28 <drac_boy> one partial reason I asked was because .. well I'm just mulling with a bit of paper mockup for an actual model locomotive and I thought it could be a bit fun to loosely model something with a 'realistic' drive .. you know .. not the usual toy-like worm driven motor inside body
01:33:41 <drac_boy> I didn't start the idea but I'm interested in seeing what I can do tho :)
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08:12:33 <andythenorth> also musa doesn’t run under python 3
08:12:47 <andythenorth> but nmlc requires python 3
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08:30:55 <andythenorth> FIRS had an embarassing bug
08:30:58 <andythenorth> but nobody noticed
08:38:19 * edeca throws more cheese at andythenorth
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09:26:21 <Pikka> also, silly interurbans :)
10:13:26 <andythenorth> I replaced it with box cab anyway
10:13:31 <andythenorth> silly interurbans
10:13:34 <andythenorth> should be a tramz
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10:22:31 <andythenorth> NARS 2.5.1 is “Ultimate NARS” imo
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12:32:14 <wito> Minimum profit of individual trains: No longer a useful metric in the face bigger maps (transport routes taking over a year) and heavy use of cargo transfers?
12:33:11 <peter1138> nothing forces you to take long routes :p
12:34:38 <V453000> if anything, the game motivates you to have all vehicles turn some profit every year, which means if a vehicle has too long path and cannot do that yearly, it does not show in your score
12:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> wito: have a station halfway through, and use "transfer and load" on it
12:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't help with the return trip, though
12:36:32 <wito> Pitch: Profit for vehicles that share orders are averaged out over them.
12:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> every possible solution has also some drawbacks
12:37:20 <wito> So if you have a long transport line with lots of vehicles, that take over a yearyou get scored on the average profit instead of the instance profit.
12:38:43 <wito> The drawback in this case being?
12:38:59 <wito> I'm not saying there aren't any, I just can't see any on the spot.
12:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> for example, a train may always be following another train, so the first train gets all the cargo, and the second train nothing, then you won't get a warning that the second train never makes any money
12:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> like, when you didn't put "full load" or something
12:42:13 <wito> Although the current warning could be split into two: One for the whole group operating at a loss, and one for huge discrepancies between trains.
12:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, any metric you could come up with has a set of problems it won't be able to detect
12:42:33 <wito> Like: "Train 1 has less than 10 % of the income of Train 2"
12:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> like, pay programmers by how many lines of code they produce
12:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> can't detect that people are just checking in garbage code, instead of figuring out the best way to do things
12:46:19 <wito> There's always the possibility of having it as an option, tho'
12:46:33 <wito> Give people enough rope to hang themselves with and all that. \;)
12:46:55 <wito> Feel confident that you can remember Wait until Full? Turn on averaging for better scoring.
12:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the best suggestion i heard about the issue was that you can set up for each vehicle that you want to get profit warning over a 1/2/4 year period
12:54:19 <wito> Well, that doesn't really help, tho'.
12:54:39 <wito> Unless the detailed scoring can also be set up for 1/2/4 year periods in terms of profit.
12:54:48 <wito> Detailed Performance Rating*
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14:42:48 <V453000> I have been captured by cubez
14:43:47 * andythenorth needs a new game...
14:44:25 <V453000> factorio on steam soon :P
14:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i posted one 5 seconds before you joined
14:54:57 <andythenorth> that’s a different cubez :P
14:55:01 <andythenorth> not the zombie game
14:59:04 <andythenorth> that will be my afternoon then
15:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> took me about half an hour through
15:04:47 <andythenorth> I’ll finish it later :P
15:04:57 <andythenorth> these tickets don’t invalidate themselves
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15:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just the numbers 0 to 7, how hard can it be?
15:15:04 <V453000> I dont see that in it
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15:21:24 <Wolf01> (could not decide if left or right :P)
15:26:27 <Wolf01> mmh train fever update
15:30:13 <andythenorth> it’s fun that the some of the transforms are order-independent
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15:32:23 <andythenorth> hmm won by accident
15:37:28 <andythenorth> go to bed pikka's
15:49:54 <andythenorth> eh, are farms supposed to be prospected for (if prospecting is enabled)?
15:51:20 <planetmaker> you want to build them on fertile soil
15:51:30 <planetmaker> (besides they're primary industries)
15:51:36 <andythenorth> I should fix FIRS then :P
16:03:59 <dlhero> well it kinda happens right now as they seem to appear clustered
16:06:02 <andythenorth> they are broken in the current release and can’t be prospected for
16:06:31 <dlhero> I've never used that tbh.
16:08:00 <dlhero> I just made the comment, that in my current maps farms appear to be clustered together
16:08:26 <dlhero> so it kind of makes sense since they need fertile soil :P
16:10:54 <andythenorth> they do cluster ;)
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16:47:57 <alluke> those egrvts trailers distract me so much
16:48:16 <alluke> the axles are in the rear end
16:48:23 <alluke> meaning huge load on the tow hitch
16:48:36 <alluke> what was zephyris thinking
16:50:10 <andythenorth> he’s not a truck nerd
16:53:50 <alluke> plus the trailers wont be able to get over any obstacles
16:53:57 <alluke> they run out of ground clearance
17:01:17 <peter1138> are they that badly out of place|?
17:01:31 <peter1138> didn't look to bad to me, for a tiny image
17:11:42 <andythenorth> all of my trucks launch themselves in the air
17:11:45 <andythenorth> when going down slopes
17:11:48 <andythenorth> shocking behaviour
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18:33:22 <alluke> tänään tulee taas hottikset
18:33:26 <peter1138> i prefer to hate it
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18:40:03 <wito> Did the squirrel map generator ever get implemented?
18:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
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19:10:31 <wito> Well, the squirrel map generator harness, I mean.
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19:15:50 * andythenorth has given up grumbling about map generator
19:16:06 <andythenorth> all I’m saying is, peter1138 had a way to make better heightmaps :P
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19:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> wito: if you want to tackle it, i'm sure it's not actually a hard problem, just an elaborate one. way back the map generation GUI was prepared to have more generators, that "just" needs hooking into the squirrel interface, and then some stuff to handle registering squirrel map generators, that can probably be adapted from scripts/AIs, and a bananas extension.
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19:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27398 trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt (2015-09-15 19:45:08 +0200 )
19:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:19 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 1 changes by xiangyigao
19:49:18 <andythenorth> can’t finish the final cube
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19:50:54 * andythenorth should update the cdist wiki page
19:51:08 <andythenorth> now that the important work of finishing cubes is done
19:53:48 <Alberth> rubics cube, or another one?
19:54:16 <andythenorth> cube game Eddi found
19:55:07 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I have a single instance of what I think is a minor cdist bug, in 2 savegames (before, after)
19:55:23 <andythenorth> I have only seen it once, I could run the game longer to see if I find it again
19:55:54 <andythenorth> train at a station on a new route, the linkgraph shows an established route, but no cargo is assigned (using station ‘planned’ view to check)
19:56:09 <andythenorth> running the train through the full order list caused cargo to be assigned
19:57:00 <andythenorth> it was the 3rd route added to the station, which fits to the pattern of behaviour I *think* I’ve seen for picking up freight cargos with full load orders
19:57:04 <andythenorth> but eh, might be imagined
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20:15:24 <andythenorth> thought I had a consistent repro on that
20:16:05 <andythenorth> replicated at another station, but ran the game three months and cargo was assigned
20:18:06 <andythenorth> ach it’s just latency
20:18:49 <Alberth> usually it is, in my experience
20:20:47 * andythenorth needs to see if running the route really solves the issue
20:20:58 <andythenorth> or if that happened to co-incide with latency catching up
20:28:04 <andythenorth> hmm, looks like it was conincidence
20:28:18 <andythenorth> it seems take ~3 months in my game to update the cargo routing
20:28:25 <andythenorth> the train took about that long to run the route :P
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20:29:15 <Alberth> I never check such things, I wouldn't know if that is long :)
20:29:54 <frosch123> damn, in this kind of puzzles the difficulties are always reversed
20:30:04 <frosch123> the "hard" ones are easy, and i fail with the "easy" ones :)
20:30:31 <Alberth> I failed to understand the first one even :)
20:30:51 <Alberth> I solved it by one click, but no idea what I did :p
20:31:11 <frosch123> well, you have to try the functions first, before advancing :)
20:33:53 <Alberth> that's what I was doing, but I missed that you have to read the whole text to understand :)
20:34:02 <andythenorth> I got them by dragging random combinations
20:34:14 <andythenorth> which given the number of possible options, should not have worked
20:34:21 <frosch123> 30 minutes, is that ok?
20:34:55 <andythenorth> took me about the same, guessing
20:35:02 <frosch123> aw, the only comparison that mattered :/
20:35:27 <andythenorth> it’s the benchmark
20:35:31 <andythenorth> Eddi is the baseline
20:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't sit there with a stopwatch...
20:35:55 <frosch123> well, i do not quite know what squaring does to binary numbers
20:36:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i did
20:36:32 * andythenorth will now spend the evening testing cdist :(
20:36:47 <andythenorth> wondering if the latency is due to number of stations, or number of routes from a station, or such
20:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is a linkgraph update interval
20:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 30 minutes was the time between the link being posted somewhere else, and me saying i was finished. i don't know how long the link stood there before i noticed it
20:41:32 <Alberth> just conclude it works? :)
20:45:28 <andythenorth> my guess is that the linkgraph update interval is only for the display
20:45:32 <andythenorth> not for cargo routing
20:45:36 <andythenorth> as best as I can understand
20:48:54 * andythenorth looks in src/linkgraph again
20:49:57 <frosch123> no, it's the computation
20:50:44 <frosch123> it makes no sense to set the visualisation to faster/slowere compared to the computation
20:51:09 <andythenorth> but the visualisation is faster compared to the computation...
20:51:45 <andythenorth> the link is established immediately in the visualisation, but unused
20:52:08 <andythenorth> whereas cargo isn’t assigned for [undetermined period]
20:54:19 <frosch123> the description for "Take xxx days for recalculation of distribution graph" is quite clear to me
20:55:03 <andythenorth> but the value of the setting is hard to relate to the behaviour in game
20:55:04 <frosch123> ah, there is another one about update of distribution graph
20:55:15 <andythenorth> there are 2 settings
20:55:45 <andythenorth> I have recalculation at ‘1 day'
20:55:58 <andythenorth> but it actually takes 3-4 months in game before cargo is assigned to routes
20:56:02 <andythenorth> *at certain stations*
20:56:32 <frosch123> well, you should make the value higher, not lower :)
20:57:04 <frosch123> set "days for recalculation of distribution graph" to twice the roundabout-time of your longest timetable, and everything should be fine
20:57:57 <frosch123> hmm, otoh, not sure it works like that
20:58:05 <frosch123> i miss another setting
20:58:24 <andythenorth> “The longer you set it, the longer it takes for the distribution to be updated when routes change"
20:58:29 <andythenorth> is why I set it to lowest possible value
21:01:52 <wito> andythenorth: I'm not sure that's useful.
21:02:11 <wito> I keep it at default, and I've never experienced it as laggy.
21:02:36 <Wolf01> how can i build a highway under a train bridge in this weird game? (tf)
21:06:22 <wito> Looks pretty sweet. Is it good?
21:06:33 <andythenorth> ok so it takes about 3-4 months before the planned view shows any cargo assigned, in the current game
21:06:38 * andythenorth tries in an empty map
21:14:11 <wito> andythenorth: Also, read the documentation for the settings.
21:15:06 <wito> What are your settings for the cdist?
21:15:19 <wito> Time taken, days between calculations, accuracy?
21:16:35 <wito> Okay, I don't think the first one is helping you.
21:16:45 <wito> Try increasing it to the default (16) and see if that helps.
21:17:25 <andythenorth> that is opposed to the documentation
21:17:32 <andythenorth> it’s the documentation I’m trying to fix btw
21:17:49 <andythenorth> there are two issues, “what is cdist supposed to do?” and “improve the docs, because there’s FUD around it”
21:18:09 <wito> The documentation (in-game) seems pretty clear to me.
21:18:25 <andythenorth> “cdist assigns cargo based on capacity” is achieving the same FUD status as “towns grow if goods are supplied"
21:19:28 <andythenorth> if it’s clear, why are you recommending I ignore the recommendation for recalculation time? o_O :)
21:19:35 <andythenorth> can’t be that clear? o_O
21:21:26 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: The time it takes for the flows to be assigned depends on the number of link graph components in the map and the recalculation interval.
21:21:47 <fonsinchen> If you have tons of point-to-point links it takes longer than if you have a single large network.
21:24:22 <andythenorth> once I have my head clear on it, I’ll update the wiki to remove misconceptions and warn about ‘gotchas’
21:24:30 <andythenorth> remove / prevent /s
21:30:15 <andythenorth> ok I’ve narrowed down part of what I thought was buggy
21:31:47 <andythenorth> (testing with 4 stations and 3 trains on an otherwise empty map, to reduce concerns about performance on crowded maps)
21:34:20 <andythenorth> - station planned view updates quickly, as expected, and trains added to an existing station are assigned cargo, as expected
21:34:27 <andythenorth> (testing with a busier map)
21:35:11 <andythenorth> - station planned view updates after ~3 months, and trains added to an existing station (new route) are assigned cargo when that happens
21:35:51 <andythenorth> - but trains added to new (otherwise unserved) stations are assigned cargo immediately, even though none is planned
21:36:06 <andythenorth> which is all probably as expected, but sticks out as inconsistent behaviour
21:36:20 * andythenorth has turned into one of those people with an obsession :(
21:36:36 <andythenorth> next I’ll be saying the scale isn’t accurate
21:52:32 <andythenorth> that latency probably grows geometrically as routes are built
21:53:37 <andythenorth> that _might_ be the reason why I saw cargo never being assigned to new routes, late in a long game on a well-developed map
21:53:57 <andythenorth> and why building a totally new pickup station would mitigate the behavious
21:55:50 <edeca> Bah, are there known problems with gasoline stations from ECS? I can't build a road stop that will accept gasoline next to a petrol station. A 1x1 rail station doesn't work either. Larger rail stations work fine. Confused :|
21:56:37 <Taede> does the larger station cover more than one gasoline station perhaps?
21:57:18 <andythenorth> get the question mark icon
21:57:25 <Taede> i'd guess a single petrol station does not accept a full 8/8 gasoline, but instead only 4/8
21:57:26 <andythenorth> and check the tile acceptance on the industry
21:59:29 <edeca> Nope, square shows 6/8 gasoline acceptance
22:01:17 <andythenorth> how many tiles in the industry?
22:08:37 <edeca> andythenorth: The industry is 1x1 petrol station, is that what you mean?
22:09:13 <andythenorth> tile acceptance is summed for station
22:09:26 <andythenorth> you need at least 8/8 or so
22:09:32 <andythenorth> otherwise no acceptance
22:10:10 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: Cargodist likes it if you connect all zour stations for each cargo.
22:10:32 <fonsinchen> Somewhat naturally, I'd say.
22:10:34 <andythenorth> yeah, I’m wondering if point-point for freight just breaks cdist in a long game
22:10:55 <fonsinchen> It will take longer for new components to get cargo assigned
22:11:06 <andythenorth> in which case ‘manual’ would be wiser for freight
22:11:08 <andythenorth> but that’s a shame
22:11:42 <fonsinchen> A simple optimization would be to calculate multiple small components in a single job. But I don't have time to implement that right now.
22:11:44 <andythenorth> with distance effect 0%, the only remaining problem for freight transport is this latency
22:11:59 <andythenorth> eh np, thanks for answering at all :)
22:12:49 <fonsinchen> Or schedule multiple small jobs in the same thread or whatever.
22:13:20 <fonsinchen> The point-to-point jobs are quick to calculate so itäs wasteful to create a new thread for each anyway.
22:13:52 <andythenorth> out of interest, how is the first route from a station assigned?
22:14:26 <andythenorth> because the latency doesn’t apply there, cargo is loaded straight away
22:14:36 <fonsinchen> What is a "first route"? Cargodist sees connected components, that is all stations reachable from some station and the links between them.
22:14:58 <andythenorth> case where I build a station, and send the first vehicle to it
22:15:09 <fonsinchen> The components are scheduled for demand and flow calculation one by one
22:15:10 <andythenorth> it always loads ~instantly
22:15:27 <fonsinchen> So if you have only one component it's almost instant
22:15:46 <fonsinchen> if you have 1000 components it takes forever for a change in one to take effect on the link graph
22:16:05 <fonsinchen> (unless you're lucky and it's scheduled next already)
22:16:08 <edeca> andythenorth: Thanks, I think I vaguely understand
22:16:50 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: If you build only point-to-point links each pair of stations with a train between them is a new component.
22:17:10 <edeca> andythenorth: I actually see a second petrol station with 4/8 acceptance in the same town that I missed. I assume they are being summed :)
22:17:13 <fonsinchen> because no other stations are reachable from either.
22:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: they have to be in the catchment radius of the station
22:18:29 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Yes that makes sense now. Just bizarre as I can't easily deliver gasoline using trucks, but no problems!
22:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> man, this cat suspiciously ogles my Hackepeterbrötchen
22:18:35 <fonsinchen> "one by one" is not entirely correct because you can give it some parallelism by setting the calculation time higher than the interval.
22:19:30 <andythenorth> when the station is previously unserved, what causes the first vehicle to be loaded before the component is updated?
22:19:42 * andythenorth wonders if it’s special case, or side-effect of something else
22:19:50 <fonsinchen> If no plan is available any vehicle will load any cargo
22:20:07 <andythenorth> yeah that explains it completely
22:20:18 <fonsinchen> You can see that in the "waiting" view, it's the "to any station" cargo.
22:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like a mode where it never generates "to any station" cargo... it somewhat poisons initial transfer routes
22:22:01 <andythenorth> I’d like a mode where it always generates ‘to any station’ cargo :)
22:22:11 <andythenorth> 1/(number destinations + 1)
22:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> we do have that, it's called "manual" :p
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22:23:25 <andythenorth> at 0% distance, cdist has some neat side effects for freight
22:23:29 <fonsinchen> Would both be easy to do. Just hook into the function where cargo is delivered to the station and change the next hop selection.
22:23:44 <andythenorth> e.g. side-effects like automatically splitting supplies evenly over the number of destinations
22:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: am i understanding you correctly that having lots of small connected components makes the update very slow to react, as opposed to one large connected component (with roughly the same number of stations/connections)
22:25:17 <fonsinchen> Ah, not so easy to do. You'd have to carry a flag in the cargo packets "Drop this if no route available at any station" or "Never assign a next hop anywhere" as the next hop selection is repeated at each station.
22:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the dropping only needs a global flag
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22:28:17 * andythenorth wonders about patching distance effect to apply to some cargos only
22:28:59 <fonsinchen> it's mostly a UI problem. Where do you put all those settings?
22:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> also, how do you group the cargos? by town effect? by cargo class? by new NewGRF flag?
22:30:15 <andythenorth> I wanted to hard-code the cargos in a local patch to test the effect
22:30:29 * andythenorth reading demands.cpp
22:30:33 * fonsinchen faintly remembers going nuts about that before
22:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been plenty of discussions about that, i'm sure
22:31:38 <andythenorth> for what I want, 0% gives nice flat demand for freight
22:31:48 <andythenorth> I just wonder if it makes pax weird
22:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you just get even more totally overloaded with passengers
22:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> as they travel larger distances
22:33:40 <fonsinchen> The distance effect is in fact a good thing for most passenger networks.
22:34:01 <andythenorth> eh, the pax overload is because the number delivered per vehicle trip is so much lower compared to default TTD?
22:34:16 <andythenorth> especially because nobody bothers transferring pax, because pax transfers are dumb in default game?
22:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each hop that one passenger travels, original TTD would have a new passenger for
22:34:36 <fonsinchen> Were the default TTD vehicles larger than the OpenTTD ones?
22:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, in original you could ignore excess passengers
22:35:31 <andythenorth> if I cared enough, I could probably make a house set that dumped pax production right down?
22:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> effectively, if a passenger travels on average 4 hops, you need 4 times the capacity
22:35:46 <fonsinchen> The real point is that the passengers usually transfer more often if they travel larger distnaces
22:36:13 <fonsinchen> (except if you have a rather weird network)
22:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you don't have the capacity and it travels only 3 hops, you don't get paid
22:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but it still blocked 3/4 of your capacity
22:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> where originally would have paid you for each leg individually
22:37:14 <andythenorth> ‘prefer local trips'
22:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that is exactly what the distance setting does
22:37:39 * andythenorth just wonders how many players really would need to set the distance effect for non-pax cargo
22:38:23 <andythenorth> flat demand for all cargos except pax, and rename the setting slightly?
22:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try that
22:39:06 <andythenorth> ‘but players will complain’ :)
22:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> add a setting: "distance only affects passengers"
22:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> (include tourists, etc)
22:39:43 <andythenorth> yeah it has to be by class I think
22:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> would make a possibly interesting case for mail distribution, as it will go much further than the passengers
22:41:15 <andythenorth> there should be a special profile for mail
22:41:35 <andythenorth> modelling junk mail :P
22:41:50 <andythenorth> most houses receive *far* more mail than they send :P
22:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i talked about this before, there should be an incentive for actually distributing mail, goods, food among the city, instead of just dropping it somewhere
22:42:13 <andythenorth> even Busy Bee doesn’t do that
22:42:30 <andythenorth> it provides mail goals, but to the city, not within the city
22:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, that hurts your profits rather than improve things
22:42:43 <andythenorth> although I don’t know how CargoMonitor works, maybe it counts within the city
22:44:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s the upside to distributing within the city? Why better gameplay?
22:44:53 <wito> It gives trucks more purpose?
22:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there currently isn't one, that's the point.
22:46:13 <andythenorth> other than a town growth goal, what would force it?
22:46:27 <andythenorth> cdist already does it with distance, if enabled
22:49:22 <andythenorth> bye fonsinchen :)
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22:54:12 <andythenorth> what if pax generation was conditional?
22:54:30 <andythenorth> and gave pax pre-computed destinations
22:54:47 <andythenorth> they are only *moved to station* if the destination is in the linkgraph
22:55:34 <andythenorth> after that it’s all just cdist flow-managed, the ‘destination’ is seen as statistical and ignored
22:56:02 <andythenorth> then 50% or so of pax could favour same town, or even quadrants of the town
22:56:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dunno, trying to think how to achieve your goal ^
22:56:38 <andythenorth> if you don’t serve the map zone, you don’t get passengers generated
22:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: YACD did that
22:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it dropped cargo if the destination wasn't reachable
22:57:17 <andythenorth> yeah, but YACD had performance problems with routing...
22:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you can simulate something by maintaining a figure about how much of the world you connected with your network
22:58:04 <andythenorth> all I knew was that YACD was a lot of fun, and I needed to keep my laptop plugged in :P
22:58:08 <andythenorth> but that is a digression
22:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but determining that value is a bit tricky
22:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if you set that figure as station rating, it would automatically drop a part of the cargo
22:59:23 <andythenorth> I am short of other ideas to incentivise intra-town distribution
22:59:32 <andythenorth> town growth is boring
22:59:53 <andythenorth> two cargo types? ‘Commuters’, ‘Tourists’? :P
23:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> messing with station rating has problems with other cargos though, as it influences industry closure and stuff
23:20:02 <edeca> LOL, the opengfx petrol statoin looks like a giant cola can
23:23:43 <Sylf> eh? not the fizzy drink factory in toyland?
23:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it probably a use of a wrong baseset sprite
23:28:05 <Sylf> yeah, that's the graphic for fizzy drink factory. you've been adding and removing industry grf in the game?
23:28:16 <edeca> Sylf: No, nothing has been added or removed after I started the game
23:29:32 <edeca> UK Town Set may have broken it perhaps?
23:30:28 <Sylf> what is ECS Industries Addon?
23:31:18 <edeca> Hm, no idea, I just added everything in my list that was ECS.
23:32:17 <Sylf> it is not a part of George's ECS that I know of
23:32:34 <edeca> No, you are right. I just selected everything in bananas. Thanks for spotting it, will start a new game :)
23:32:52 <Sylf> you have ecs houses, UK houses, TaI houses and TTRS loaded too
23:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ECS houses is redundant if you have TTRS
23:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it just adds the TTRS buildings that are required for the cargo chains
23:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> like the fuel station
23:33:49 <edeca> So leave TTRS and ditch the rest?
23:34:29 <Sylf> you can keep ttrs, uk and tai houses on if you want
23:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the main feature of TaI houses is limited town growth, which doesn't work if you mix it with other house sets
23:34:54 <Sylf> yeah. tai houses is special
23:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and UK houses and TaI houses probably contain the same stuff
23:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i don't think BROS contains anything useful :p
23:37:44 <edeca> I was playing with a bunch last night to find a selection of nice stations
23:39:04 <Sylf> BROS has 3-4 passenger trains that may or may not work
23:39:31 <edeca> Sylf: Do you have a preferred list of grfs?
23:40:16 <Sylf> the useful list changes all the time
23:40:24 <edeca> Interesting, removing those grfs I can't fund a petrol station now, but they still appear in the game so that's fine
23:41:24 <edeca> Yes, the ability to fund a petrol station comes from that weird unofficial ECS grf you noticed. Thanks Sylf
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