IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-09-04
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17:16:03 <andythenorth> quiet channel is quiet
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18:52:03 <andythenorth> lo Alberth, Terkhen
18:53:01 <Alberth> python thingie is working?
18:53:34 <andythenorth> all fine thanks :)
18:56:44 <andythenorth> debugging in production :)
18:56:51 * andythenorth has definitely _never_ done that
18:57:01 <andythenorth> and nothing definitely _ever_ went wrong
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19:50:06 <Wolf01> mmmh i might want to try factorio multiplayer
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20:01:21 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 44 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
20:01:48 <V453000> it is fun if you set enemy bases to very big Wolf01 :P
20:02:26 <Wolf01> i already have problems with single nests of biters
20:10:32 <andythenorth> I didn’t like the biters element :P
20:11:26 <andythenorth> “Don’t mix the themes"
20:11:32 <andythenorth> Lego reference :P
20:11:41 <andythenorth> if I wanted to play Doom, I’d play Doom
20:12:46 <frosch123> he, as child i did not care about lego colours :) while i built advanced shapes and stuff, i always picked the first piece that fit with whatever colour
20:13:07 <Wolf01> oh we have a rainbow builder here
20:13:38 <frosch123> that still sounds "sorted", not "random" :p
20:13:40 <andythenorth> standard programmer
20:13:46 <andythenorth> structure over aesthetics :P
20:14:47 <andythenorth> aesthetics of structure > aesthetics of presentation
20:16:13 <frosch123> i never got the 16+ rating for lego, i used them at age of 10, and stopped with lego mostly at 14
20:17:35 <andythenorth> slow internet is slow
20:19:14 <peter1138> i dunno, i've met kids these days who've no idea what to do with lego
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20:21:30 <Wolf01> that's because they start to play wit their parents' tablets and phones before even touch a "solid" toy
20:22:11 <andythenorth> my 5 year old won’t build it
20:22:18 <andythenorth> he thinks I build it and he plays with it
20:22:23 <andythenorth> actually that’s not true :P
20:22:34 <Wolf01> you build and you play
20:22:37 <andythenorth> but it’s a cool story about the ipad generation :P
20:23:00 <V453000> I like the biters because they make expansion a lot harder, thus saving resources is a lot more necessary
20:26:31 <frosch123> currently i woinder how to balance raw materials during map generation
20:27:18 <frosch123> it annoys me when i skip iron deposits with the rail track because i have to get to some oil deposit further away :p
20:27:30 <frosch123> just because i do not need more iron
20:27:54 <frosch123> resp. i need oil more first :p
20:28:18 <V453000> I think that is part of the fun of the game
20:28:24 <V453000> adapt your factory to what you need
20:28:37 <V453000> like, one game I have not enough oil, one game not enough iron
20:28:41 <frosch123> yeah, you can somewhat do that with coal
20:28:52 <frosch123> coal is flexible, you can use it a lot, or replace it with other things
20:29:02 <frosch123> but iron and copper is quite fixed
20:29:15 <andythenorth> a brake block fell off my bike
20:29:18 <andythenorth> this is not correct
20:29:23 <V453000> well you can make productivity chips and put them there, produce less ammo/ choose military based on resources
20:30:19 <frosch123> i put prod modules into everything :p
20:30:21 <V453000> for example when I had super low amount of oil, speed modules are priority, and getting military upgrades for bullets is great - because upgraded bullet turrets can work instead of laser, but laser needs batteries (hence oil)
20:30:36 <V453000> well yeah but it takes a long time before you have an army of lvl3 modules
20:30:56 <frosch123> no biters, so no lv3 :p
20:31:35 <V453000> lately I was also approaching "how to actually fight HUGE alien bases"
20:31:48 <V453000> you need to commit massively otherwise they just wreck you
20:31:51 <frosch123> well, that's why i stopped playing with biters
20:32:29 <frosch123> at least when i played them last, it was always "you have to hit them hard and kill them in one go", there was no "slow and consistent" way to kill them
20:33:15 <frosch123> there was always a fixed amount of biters at bases of a certain size, either you killed them and the base before they respawned, or you achieved nothing
20:33:37 <V453000> but laser turret siege = win
20:33:59 <frosch123> yes, but that got boring
20:34:27 <V453000> sniping buildings from the tank is a win
20:34:33 <frosch123> i wondered whether there should be indirect ways to slow their respawning
20:34:36 <V453000> throwing grenades at enemies, too
20:34:40 <frosch123> or maybe there are meanwhile :p
20:34:55 <frosch123> like cutting their water supplies somewhere :p
20:35:56 <frosch123> i don't like the binary result of a fight: "base gone" vs. "nothing changed"
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20:45:40 <TartarusMkII> Hi again friends, I wanted to run a question by y'all. If I have both busses and trams, what is the point of adding trams to roadways? What is something a tram can do that a RV cannt?..
20:50:02 <TartarusMkII> So it's just for more variety?
20:50:09 <TartarusMkII> no functional differences?
20:50:23 <TartarusMkII> though I guess trams are all articulated, so they need to drive through
20:51:12 <frosch123> can i reverse the question?
20:51:28 <andythenorth> depends on choices by the newgrf author
20:51:45 <frosch123> trams have are better in all ways to rv. what is something a rv can do that a tram cannot? :p
20:51:53 <andythenorth> one ‘realism’ inspired option is that trams are much higher density
20:52:56 <frosch123> which is funnily not true at all, judging by the trams i have used in my life
20:53:27 <frosch123> i guess realistically trams are somewhat an outdated technology without upgrades
20:53:47 <frosch123> that's possibly why i like them being strong in ottd :p
20:55:17 <andythenorth> in theory a modern tram is insanely high density, mostly standing
20:55:42 <andythenorth> although in the UK we have double-decker buses
21:01:02 <TartarusMkII> I am trying to learn how to make my economy work in 1850 with carriages
21:01:09 <TartarusMkII> it's very difficult for me to overcome the cost of running the carriages..
21:01:19 <TartarusMkII> and then Ithe loan interest piles up.
21:01:42 <TartarusMkII> I have to think about how to do it differently, as these RVs have a much lower speed. I dunno. hm. What do you guys think
21:02:19 <frosch123> i do not know of anyone who started in 1800 with inflation enabled, and who survived :p
21:02:58 <frosch123> the inflation in ottd assumes some technology progress. if there is none, it breaks you
21:03:00 * andythenorth targets 1870 start or so
21:05:15 <TartarusMkII> oh I see, makes sense.
21:05:18 <TartarusMkII> I'll try 1870 XD
21:08:47 * andythenorth makes his own RV set
21:14:07 <Wolf01> pffff i placed a "storage chest" and the armageddon happened
21:15:04 <frosch123> no, armageddon is when you pick up a full chest while your inventory is full :)
21:15:20 <frosch123> it's the worst, i only did it once
21:15:28 <Wolf01> you wouldn't be able to do that
21:15:53 <frosch123> in the version i did it, i splatters all the contents onto a 12x12 area or something
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21:16:44 <Wolf01> now i'm converting my distribution network to drones, to get rid of the conveyor belts
21:17:11 <frosch123> why would you do that? :o
21:17:27 <frosch123> do you also delete all trains in ottd to replace them with planes?
21:18:39 <Wolf01> all the advanced stuff is handled by drones, there is only the basic production (pipes, ammunition, batteries, inserters) which are fed by conveyor belts
21:19:08 <andythenorth> conveyor belts are weird
21:19:16 * andythenorth couldn’t understand them
21:20:15 <frosch123> f-belts = ottd-trains, f-train = ottd-ships, f-bots = ottd-planes, f-pipes = ottd-rv
21:20:48 <V453000> drones cost shitload of power and are kind of lame :/
21:21:03 <V453000> for blueprints/deconstruction/repairing/refilling ammo they are amazing
21:21:04 <frosch123> main subject, insane capacity, stupid, local-transport only
21:27:01 <Wolf01> but i really need to learn how to play, now i'm pretty much experimenting
21:27:10 <andythenorth> and what’s the equivalent of ottd-pipes?
21:27:31 <andythenorth> V453000: why was it a good idea to do something about FIRS Fishing Grounds production?
21:27:38 <andythenorth> it was a note I had, but no justification :P
21:28:20 <Supercheese> likely because there is no justification
21:39:48 <Zuu> I also got bite by factorio, but I only play it with the peace mod. I watched a youtube with biters and spilled coffe all over just from a sudden biter attack on the video. No way I try to play a game with them. :-)
21:40:02 <Zuu> Congratz to V453000 for your new position :-)
21:41:06 <andythenorth> what did he do? :o
21:41:29 <Zuu> He apparently becohe thier new gfx guy alongside someone called Albert.
21:42:36 <Zuu> It was announced they had someone on trial some week ago, and today they first posted a NUTS link as example of previous work before revealing his name. :-)
21:48:49 <andythenorth> I can’t think of any game more suited to V453000
21:49:00 <andythenorth> and it definitely needs some graphical love
21:58:21 <Zuu> I though some on the GS -> NewGRF stuff I made. That GS simply gave an initiative to fullfill goals to upgrade production. Which is kind of what FIRS is already.
21:59:11 <Zuu> Not sure if it add so much gameplay really compared to FIRS.
22:02:01 <andythenorth> I think the interface is valid
22:02:08 <andythenorth> the specific implementation might not add much
22:03:11 <andythenorth> adjusting production at a single industry is not much more or less than newgrf could (even by reading town registers if needed)
22:03:27 <andythenorth> adjusting production at a whole class of industry, or all industries in a region...
22:03:32 <andythenorth> is impossible for newgrf
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22:05:56 <Zuu> True. Though I bet if added, the first to adopt it would be a City Town Builder script. :-p
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22:07:33 <Zuu> The tech tree idea however was a bit cool.
22:08:07 <Zuu> Now that everyone plays factorio, we could transport some cargo type to some industry to unlock technology. :-)
22:08:33 <TartarusMkII> i feel sad I cant balance stuff like this, I don't even have more than one RV pack so I don't know why they are so imbalanced
22:10:21 <andythenorth> because they’re so slow
22:10:32 <Zuu> Well automobile is cool right, so who care if horses is better? ;-)
22:10:58 <TartarusMkII> >< but why is it so.. weird..
22:11:16 <Zuu> Also reliability is randomized in every game so what makes sense in one game may not make sense in another.
22:11:26 <Zuu> In your game the bus has slightly better reliability.
22:12:05 <TartarusMkII> it is? I ddn't know. Huh.
22:12:40 <TartarusMkII> I am just stuck now because I don't know how to make use of my technology to overcome the operating costs and the loan interest
22:13:48 <Zuu> You can always use the money cheat if you find no other way. :-)
22:14:52 <Zuu> Otherwise look on income/distance graph. Also keep in mind passengers pay in both ways while other cargo usually only in one, unless you can find a place where the same vehicle can serve two set of industries.
22:16:03 * andythenorth should finish Road Hog
22:16:17 <Zuu> For industries full load orders generally make sense. For passengers I find it makes more sense to use a timetable to balance travel time for cargo in the vehicle with station rating.
22:16:43 <TartarusMkII> im looking for a income/distance graph but can't find one? =s also I do try to start my games with passengers
22:16:53 <Zuu> Station rating basically goes up when a vehicle is waiting. And decrease when there is none.
22:17:00 <TartarusMkII> oo and I've never tried to use time tables, how do those go?
22:17:37 <frosch123> TartarusMkII: income does not depend on distance
22:17:46 <frosch123> but on average speed including loading time
22:17:52 <Zuu> In the game there is a graph button. If you hold your mouse button down it will open a menu. And among the graphs there is one that show how cargo payment varies by time.
22:18:15 <frosch123> longer distance with no signal waiting times reduce the percentage of the loading time
22:19:00 <andythenorth> eh, removing date limits from player industry funding
22:19:36 <TartarusMkII> I don't have income and distance, just income, cargo pay rates, etc
22:20:26 <Zuu> TartarusMkII: In this case a partial timetable use is enough. Just set eg. 10 days wait time on stations and you are ready to go. Or you can collect travel times for one roundtrip and then increase the times for stops and then use Ctrl+click on the set date button to distribute your vehicles.
22:20:45 <Sylf> distance is always linear, i thought
22:21:11 <Zuu> The full timetable will help against vehicle bunching. Partial helps for making buses/trucks load for at least eg. 5 or 10 days.
22:22:14 <Zuu> TartarusMkII: There is IIRC no graph that shows ideal transport distance, but you can for example deduce that coal pays off better than grain in general.
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22:24:04 <Zuu> And you can also see which cargoes that are more sensitive to slow delivery (less payment) and which ones that care less about delivery time. That being said. The game has bonuses for new vehicles etc. in other places. (station rating)
22:29:31 <TartarusMkII> I still wish I coul see other people play, I feel like I am missing so much
22:29:45 <TartarusMkII> like when I have lots of busses in a city, and they are all overcrowded, to me I feel like their time table hardly matters
22:29:59 <TartarusMkII> as long as they don't spend tons of time pointlessly circling around the city to get ot the next stop
22:38:35 <TartarusMkII> like, even from 1870 should I try to make an inter city train with some horse carriage feeders? or is it just not.. good
22:38:51 <TartarusMkII> because even at 1870 I can make an inter city bus tht is permanently overburdened even with my full 200k
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