IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-08-18
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00:00:08 <Payl> but i think i never had a openttd crash so IMO it's very stable
00:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: of course the biggest new features recently were CargoDist and More Height Levels
00:00:29 <Payl> Rubidium: i don't get why you think openttd is missing something..?
00:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: and those have had years to ripen from idea into a feature
00:01:32 <Payl> well, this might be big for you guys, but im openttd nub! :P
00:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: "stability" isn't necessarily about it blowing up your computer
00:01:49 <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: it's about crashing the game. I never had such problem.
00:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> for example, play multiplayer for 8 hours with the stable release, and then play multiplayer for 8 hours with one of the patch packs around
00:02:18 <Supercheese> also desyncs in multiplayer
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00:02:53 <Payl> well, desyncs are hard to notice sometimes, im not sure since i'm not openttd pro again
00:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> patch packs exactly follow this strategy of "add features first, ask questions later"
00:03:04 <Rubidium> Payl: I don't think that OpenTTD is missing anything, if I thought that I would have solved that issue
00:03:21 <glx> desyncs are easy to notice, but hard to fix ;)
00:03:33 <Payl> Rubidium: are there are any features you would like to see in game? :P
00:04:02 <Payl> glx: I would say both. Im not sure how bad desyncs get in openttd, but surely they are hard to fix
00:04:19 <glx> you are kicked out of the game
00:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: btw. a large part of the features in the recent years were under the hood changes for better modding ability. you won't ever notice these changes until a script or newgrf uses them to make something really awesome
00:05:09 <Payl> aha! there is problem! devs dont plan future of game.. jk, but prob it means something
00:05:44 <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well i messed around with newgrf and was amazed that game handless all my careless modifications
00:06:13 * Rubidium thinks the bungalow skyscraper metaphore isn't clear enough
00:06:26 <Payl> Rubidium: sry, im not native speaker :P
00:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: turn a car into a spaceship?
00:06:46 <Payl> you mean that you need to cover basics first?
00:07:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: no. that's a bad strategy usually
00:07:45 <Payl> well, then i dont get your metaphore :P
00:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: if you only ever cover bases, you never start the actual project
00:09:06 <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: by basics i mean core of project.
00:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: you need to cover small part of the basis, build the first level of the project, then revisit the basis, build the second level, etc.
00:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> each added level requires you to revisit all the lower levels and the basis
00:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but after you're done with each level, you have a polished project for release
00:10:34 <glx> it's like opendune, now the basic stuff it done and it needs a full rewrite to be able to improve things ;)
00:10:38 <Rubidium> in any case, OpenTTD was never designed to be this large and feature-rich. After all, it was designed to be very much like TTD minus some bugs
00:10:38 <Payl> well, if your code is written correctly this only goes back X levels, but is correct for beggining projects
00:11:30 <Rubidium> so, imagine that version 0.1 of OpenTTD being a bungalow (a single floor house)
00:11:31 <Payl> Rubidium: true, openttd is now almost new game now.
00:12:15 <Payl> Rubidium: so, you mean you need to improve core of the game first?
00:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: what i mean is, the more levels you already have, the more work needs to be done before you can add a new level
00:12:27 <Rubidium> then we added a lot of features; in the bungalow case this would be adding more floors, but now we have reached the stage where we can't continue adding floors without redoing the fundament of the building
00:12:53 <Payl> Rubidium: yup, so it was going back to basics :P
00:13:05 * NGC3982_ does actually feel like playing some OTTD.
00:13:10 <Rubidium> i.e. from bungalow to a three story house might be possible without too many invasive changes to the fundament, but adding more floors requires replacing the fundament
00:13:33 <glx> we already rewrote huge parts (all the GUI code)
00:13:38 <Rubidium> now all these new features essentially add a new floor, making the whole thing fairly unstable even if it doesn't look like that
00:13:54 <Payl> oh, so now major game rewrite is being done?
00:14:17 <Rubidium> in any case, to add relatively big features, you basically need to start some stuff from scratch...
00:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> major rewrites are never "done"
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00:14:55 <Payl> Rubidium: I understand, im dev myself so i understand you cant add new things unless game core supports it correctly
00:15:25 <Payl> and this would explain lack of features
00:15:40 <glx> usually when you want to add a big feature you need to rewrite many parts of the code to simplify/help the integration
00:15:43 <Rubidium> the only problem is, when you start stuff from scratch you want to be able to re-evaluate all design decisions, but many if not all are set in stone by NewGRF and AI/GS specifications
00:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what i said initially still holds, things like more conditional orders or routing restrictions are not really held back by "core" not supporting them, but rather by gui-design being insufficient
00:16:35 <Rubidium> so, either you drop support for a lot of existing content, or you don't do it, or ... you wait until someone has an incredibly good idea
00:16:46 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget the pathfinders
00:16:47 <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well, what GUI limitation plays role here? train length is an int...
00:17:03 <glx> all full of magic voodoo :)
00:17:38 <Payl> Rubidium: well, there is never perfect solution. All solutions have their drawbacks and pros.
00:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: it's not a matter of things being too limited, but there must be a clear design underneath, so it's not just bloated
00:18:11 <Rubidium> Payl: a vehicle is 8 pixels high, the top of the bridge is 8 pixels above the ground (for a single height level bridge), then there is catenary that needs to be above the vehicle but below the bridge...
00:18:15 <Payl> right, and right now i would imagine it's rather bloated
00:18:25 *** NGC3982_ is now known as NGC3982
00:18:55 <Rubidium> which is one of the reasons why a proper 3D engine doesn't work in OpenTTD's scale
00:19:16 <Rubidium> unless you say... okay, vehicles may only be 6 pixels high, but then you scrap essentially all graphics
00:19:25 <glx> a good example is variable daylength, many tried, noone had a real working solution
00:19:33 <Payl> well, making OpenTTD 3D isn't an option, it would be another game.
00:19:57 <Payl> glx: well, in my game i "fixed" it with cheatengine
00:20:16 <Payl> just froze day variable...
00:20:28 <Payl> it's not without it's problems, but good enough
00:20:34 <Rubidium> ah well, have fun with the discussion
00:20:50 <Rubidium> time to do something my body fancies doing
00:21:01 <Payl> Rubidium: I get your point, dont think that i deny your arguments :P
00:22:09 <Payl> so, one more question: is stuff being reworked now? Because from Rubidium it sounds like waiting until stuff fixes itself? :P
00:22:43 <NGC3982> Logged on, joined a random network game, did something wrong, got kicked.
00:23:17 <Payl> NGC3982: dont worry, you didnt get banned after all
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03:15:32 <Flygon> Eh, you can make OTTD 3D enough. Just prerender a lot of shit and you're done. xP
03:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> with this it was meant using a 3D engine to make it look like it currently looks (potentially speeding up drawing by offloading spritesorting to the graphics card)
03:22:39 <Flygon> I thought all the sprites WERE handled by the GPU...
03:22:52 <Flygon> ...or am I assuming the wrong things of modern graphics hardware
03:23:10 <Flygon> Then again, I don't really know HOW 2D acceleration has ever worked on PC's...
03:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no, all the sprites are handled by the CPU, and then a buffer is pushed to the GPU saying "this is how i want it to look. do it"
03:44:23 <Flygon> Has this ALWAYS been the case with PC?
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04:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: at least for '90s PC games, this has always been the case
04:03:18 <Flygon> Alright, that would explain a lot
04:03:29 <Flygon> x3 Sorry, waaaay too used to thinking of things in console terms, y'know?
04:03:36 <Flygon> eg. hardware sprite ordering ect
04:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that was never needed for PC, as the CPU generally was fast enough to do that
04:04:56 <Flygon> Fast enough that the inefficiencies weren't a problem, aye
04:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> consoles usually have way specced down CPUs
04:06:00 <Flygon> Well, that, and... rather bizarro rendering methods sometimes
04:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's backwards... people just got very creative with how to abuse the rendering methods that were available
04:07:01 <Flygon> The Sega CD, for example... doesn't so much help the Mega Drive scale sprites. So much as it gets fed tiles from the ROM or CD, scales them, then sends the scaled material to the VDP...
04:07:28 <Flygon> Which is, uhm. Well, for one thing, it consumes VDP tile space, hahaha
04:07:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that might well be an explanation of how the warp drive works...
04:07:59 <Flygon> I don't really know what they were thinking. Given there was other methods available of doing the same thing far more quickly...
04:08:16 <Flygon> Mega Drive gives the Sega CD picture
04:08:20 <Flygon> Sega CD manipulates picture
04:08:30 <Flygon> Feeds it back to Mega Drive, effectively uses Mega Drive as framebuffer
04:09:35 <Flygon> Framebuffers scare me. They work well... until you either don't have enough spare room, or a bottleneck occours
04:09:46 <Flygon> Then again, with modern computers, this really isn't a problem :D
04:09:53 <Flygon> We've come a looong way
04:10:29 <Flygon> Sure, I miss seeing the days where people would come up with clever workarounds for a simple problem... but
04:10:37 <Flygon> It's probably best for the sanity of everyone xP
04:14:32 <Flygon> Ahh... sorry for rambling x.x
04:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, all this abusing of hardware bugs and stuff made it really tricky to port games between platforms
04:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> even relying on timings was troubling
04:16:21 <Flygon> Y'know, each platform having a different CPU arch. xP
04:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers
04:16:49 <Flygon> Ooh, yeah. Isn't that why lots of 90s PCs had the Turbo button?
04:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> only in the very early 90's
04:18:10 <Flygon> (the hardware bugs problem actually kinda bit the Mega Drive on the ass... when you have a console that's gone through that many hardware revisions, you will break at least a few games/utilities @_@)
04:18:30 <Flygon> Coulda sworn I saw Turbo buttons being regular into 1998-1999
04:18:39 <Flygon> But, I was like, a youngass kiddo at the time xP
04:19:09 <Flygon> Our Primary School's computers ran like crap
04:19:15 <Flygon> We used Windows ME PC's into 2004
04:19:22 <Flygon> And the Turbo buttons were always turned on
04:19:33 <Flygon> And the entire school shared a rather slow ISDN connection until 2003
04:21:26 <Flygon> Didn't help ME kept crashing
04:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really have any problems with ME, until it was so infested with malware i had to scrap it
04:22:38 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers <-- and often unplayable
04:22:58 <Flygon> Eddi: When you put Windows ME in the hands of an 9 year old
04:23:05 <Flygon> Expect bad things to happen
04:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i don't see why that would affect ME more than any other...
04:24:05 <Flygon> Eddi: It's a Primary School
04:24:22 <Flygon> You'll get all sorts of stupid insane crap happening
04:24:39 <Flygon> And everyone knows it's just preparing them for the insane insanity of absurdity that'll come in High School
04:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but that's not the point
04:25:21 <Flygon> And they did like breaking the 9x machines too...
04:25:34 <Flygon> Either way, when 2000 started being phased in, things started crashing far less
04:26:03 <glx> of course it was a NT system
04:26:26 <Flygon> I loved the 2000 computers. Never lost my work
04:26:30 <glx> but not very good at gaming
04:26:32 <Flygon> The games never crashed
04:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> people had lots of fun with ping of death, for a day or two...
04:26:47 <Flygon> ...I love how glx and I said directly opposing statement simultainiously
04:27:15 <Flygon> Tho, the audio for the older DOS games was troublesome on both 2K and XP x.x
04:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but that wasn't elementary school :p
04:27:34 <Flygon> At least in High School, all the computers had XP
04:27:39 <Flygon> They ran like utter crap
04:27:43 <Flygon> But at least they worked xP
04:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> at our school, all the PCs had 98, except one that ran NT, and one that ran linux
04:29:30 <glx> at school we had thomson MO5
04:29:58 <Flygon> Thomson MO5... I don't think that brand even existed in Australia
04:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i left school in 2000
04:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the PCs were generally disused ones from big companies
04:31:05 <Flygon> Most of the computers we got in Primary
04:31:28 <Flygon> Were either ones that were mass purchased around 1995-1996 (most ran 95 when I first got in, and was clearly their first OS)
04:31:39 <Flygon> Or ones handed down to the school through Government computer retirement programmes
04:31:49 <Flygon> Where instead of scrapping the PCs, they'd give them to Schools
04:32:17 <Flygon> Thus making the Inner City High School Computer joke in Futurama extremely relatable to me xP
04:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember that joke
04:32:43 <Flygon> glx: I can see why I may not've heard of the brand x3
04:33:00 <Flygon> The episode where they go to the planet of the robots
04:33:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i do not have all episodes of futurama memorized
04:33:55 <glx> Flygon: and they were still in use in 1993
04:34:12 <Flygon> glx: To me, that would've been extremely cool as a kid
04:34:19 <Flygon> The other kids probably wouldn't have found it cool
04:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the first year we had computer course in school they taught us DOS commands and microsoft works [on win 3.11]
04:35:37 <Flygon> I can't find the quote x.x
04:36:08 <Flygon> ...there was a meeting going on, and I attended
04:36:24 <Flygon> And noticed their computers were old as hell and asked if they mind I took a stickybeek :B
04:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think this was in 7th grade, which would make this 1994/1995-ish
04:37:53 <Flygon> First computer I ever used was in that same year...
04:37:56 <supermop> did you have computers in school in DDR Eddi|zuHause ? or would that have been before your time?
04:37:59 <Flygon> Which actually made using 3.11 really weird
04:38:07 <Flygon> Because, I assumed before Windows 95 existed
04:38:14 <Flygon> ALL desktop computers ran DOS
04:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: no, and yes.
04:38:25 <Flygon> And thought Windows didn't exist before 95
04:38:52 <Flygon> I mean... I booted the 3.11 PC and was like
04:38:58 <Flygon> "Where's da start menu?"
04:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, windows 1-3 ran on DOS, Windows 95 was basically Windows 4
04:39:15 <Flygon> Then figured out what the Program Manager thing on the desktop was for
04:39:29 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i've never seen an east german microcomputer but i assumed there would have been some in some institutions at least
04:39:36 <Flygon> I meant, raw DOS. All text based interface ect x3
04:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: universities had some
04:40:02 <supermop> local or western? or russian?
04:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there was a computer manufacturer in east germany called "robotron", but people also had imported western computers, and especially software...
04:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: russian computers also existed
04:41:05 <supermop> please tell me someone purchased that trademark from the state in 91
04:41:22 <supermop> best brand name ever
04:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what happened to the brand
04:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> although, many brands were purchased by western companies, and then never used
04:41:57 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: ive seen old soviet russian calculators and microcomputers on ebay from time to time
04:42:10 <supermop> calculators with VFDs
04:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a shipment of a supercomputer to our university, and some parts of crates for it we used as base for our model railway. i spent a lot of time as a kid staring at the russian letters underneath trying to decipher what they say
04:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but the only word i ever could decipher was "Dresden"
04:43:44 <Flygon> My extent of reading Russian letters
04:43:58 <Flygon> Is knowing that Pectopat isn't pronounced Pektopat
04:44:05 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i assume that one was easier to pick out from context
04:44:13 <Flygon> It's pronounced Resturant
04:44:27 <Flygon> Or however you spell it
04:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> restaurant isn't pronounced restaurant either
04:44:59 <Flygon> Jesus Christ. I can spell the thing in Russian but not English. That's how crap English is. :D
04:45:20 <Flygon> Yeah, exactly. I keep trying to type it semi-phonetically and failing baaadly
04:45:39 <Flygon> In my head, I say it like "Res-trau-nt"
04:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i think it might actually have been the other way around, somebody told me it said "Dresden" and then i matched the letters
04:47:08 <supermop> in the 70s my dad bought an HP calculator, either with LED or VFD display, when he was doing his masters or phd
04:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i could just have asked my mother to read it to me, she taught russian in school
04:47:15 <supermop> and it cost him more than his car
04:48:21 <supermop> saved him having to punch cards and carry them to the computer building though
04:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> calculators always seemed weird to me, as they didn't seem to follow moore's law
04:48:58 <Flygon> It's just that for the purposes of being thumb compatible
04:49:09 <Flygon> They have to remain a particular minimum size
04:49:22 <supermop> they certainly do not come down in cost
04:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, but if they don't go down in size, they should go down in price instead
04:49:45 <Flygon> I was going by an interperetation where Moores Law applied to a Calculator where
04:49:53 <supermop> a graphing calculator today is about the same cost and same functionality, and same size, as one from the late 80s
04:50:03 <Flygon> So therefor the improvements come from either size or performance
04:50:10 <Flygon> ...I just said gibberish
04:50:23 <Flygon> The issue with calculators coming down in price
04:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> a bear AND the flu? poor you.
04:50:38 <Flygon> If we compleeeeetely ignore the monopolies making the prices artificially high
04:50:41 <supermop> maybe the bear has the flu
04:50:54 <Flygon> Is stuff like plastic casing. Stuff gotta be made out of Nintendium yo :B
04:51:09 <Flygon> I'm not that sort of non-straigt person
04:51:13 <supermop> calculators are like text books
04:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a plastic case worth 10 cents makes a calculator cost 120€?
04:51:33 <Flygon> Eddi: It's a very pretty case! xP
04:51:41 <Flygon> But, yeah. Calculators got the same problem as Text Books
04:51:42 <supermop> high school or professor suggests or requires a certain model for a certain course
04:51:59 <supermop> so TI has no reason to improve it or make it cheaper
04:52:02 <Flygon> Sure. It'd be cheaper to just use a $100 laptop which can open both the Textbook PDFs AND a suitable calculator software
04:52:10 <Flygon> But that'll never fuckin' happen xP
04:52:30 <supermop> and even if casio or HP make a competitor that is better, no one buys it unless a professor mandates that one instead
04:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> every phone nowadays could just run a calculator app that beats out any calculator ever.
04:53:19 <supermop> but course mandates TI-86, even if it was meager in 1990
04:54:04 <supermop> so you have a guaranteed market going to buy a TI-86 no matter how expensive or crappy it is,
04:54:32 <Flygon> Eddi: AND have a big enough screen for the textbooks
04:55:02 <Flygon> Well, if there's any upshot of this. All these TI calculators can run Pokemon Red and Blue flawlessly xP
04:55:16 <supermop> Flygon: most proctors would not let you sit for an exam with a laptop on your desk
04:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, when i went to university, the running gag was that someone ported command&comquer to TI-86. with multiplayer capability
04:59:05 <Flygon> Sorry for the delay, was cooking
05:01:50 <supermop> Flygon: maybe they should, maybe not. Today you could make arguments that rote memorization and traditional examination are increasingly obsolete as educational tools, but that's a matter for different debate among educators
05:02:06 <Flygon> There's a time and place for memorization
05:02:30 <supermop> there is also a lot of a club mentality - "if i had to do this with only this equipment then kids today should have to do so too"
05:02:41 <Flygon> But setting students up for an environment where they must force themselves to remember an absolute truckload of information across a wide berth of subjects
05:03:03 <Flygon> Just to fill in answers on a sheet for a week long period of their lives
05:03:13 <Flygon> Is not very healthy for the students
05:03:21 <Flygon> And won't likely have them REMEMBERING the information later
05:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> our math teacher once asked us whether we wanted to write the test with or without graphical calculator. followed with: "when you want to write with, the questions will be formulated in a way that you won't have a use for it."
05:04:20 <supermop> a standardized test that you make as hard to cheat at as possible is pretty much state of the art for the late 19th century when people first began to seriously try to make a science of education.
05:04:42 <Flygon> I still can't remember a thing about algebra or trigonometry...
05:04:53 <supermop> today you could probably better measure someones comprehension with other methods
05:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the test was about differentiation or integration or something along that line
05:05:43 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: actually not much need for calculators in the conceptual basics of calculus
05:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so the questions would have been things so complicated that the calculator wouldn't be able to do
05:06:25 <supermop> making someone sit a basic calc exam where they need a calculator is more painful busywork than actually determining if they learned the material
05:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone somewhat agreed that we'd write the test without calculator :p
05:07:58 <supermop> i only really got a lot of use out of my ti 86 in AP chemistry
05:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> what does AP stand for?
05:08:52 <supermop> its a sort of worthless system in the us
05:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, graphical calculators are generally more useful in applied sciences, where you've got statistics to plot and stuff
05:09:45 <supermop> whereby you take a very basic level university course in high school, and then depending on the AP exam results may get some university credits for it
05:10:09 <supermop> so you can then save time at university or skip some classes
05:11:08 <supermop> my AP german scores placed me in german iii at university but would not give me 'credits' for skipping i and ii unless i also completed iv and v
05:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and after German V you can speak german like a 5-year-old?
05:12:21 <supermop> so where i just wanted to take an easy german course as an elective on the side and stay current in my proficiency, i was dropped into a hard class which made me decide to give it up after ii
05:12:51 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i could speak german better after my high school german than after my university german!
05:13:06 <supermop> and better still after my middle school german
05:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> skipping introduction classes doesn't seem like a great idea generally
05:13:38 <supermop> i was never that serious about keeping up with it unfortunately so i'd put myself at the 3 year old level today
05:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> they might cover pieces you didn't actually discuss in school
05:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and even for the other stuff, repeating it is never wrong
05:15:02 <supermop> the other AP classes i took in high school were all for thinks i never needed to touch in university anyway except physics and calculus
05:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> like i took advanced maths courses in a specialized maths school, but even though until the 4th semester i encountered lots of stuff we already covered in school, skipping the first two semesters would have been deadly
05:15:43 <supermop> so i gave up on german and tried japanese and swedish instead
05:16:31 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i also found some things were done differently between my UK middle school and US high school
05:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably normal
05:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that is even a problem just moving between schools
05:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or within germany, moving from one state to another
05:17:25 <supermop> so while generally i was 2 or so years 'ahead' in math when i came back to the us, there were a couple important things i would have missed if i actually tried to skip those years
05:18:12 <supermop> same in the US, generally public school curricula are set by states, not the federal government for better or for worse
05:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> this is kind of a big discussion in germany as well
05:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> especially about comparing the final results wrt university application
05:19:48 <Eddi|zuHause> a 1.0 [best grade] in Bremen is potentially much easier to reach than a 1.0 in Bavaria
05:20:09 <supermop> universities generally try to have their own methods for ranking different high schools across the country
05:20:17 <supermop> which can lead to all sorts of problems
05:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yet for courses like medicine, which have a Numerus Clausus, both these results are treated the same
05:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the individual universities don't actually have much to say in this
05:21:34 <supermop> universities here are a bit weird
05:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a centralized system for distributing students which want to take such courses
05:21:53 <supermop> and give objectively some of the best educations in the world,
05:21:58 <supermop> but in many many cases not
05:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so basically the university says "we have 100 seats", and the system assigns them 100 students which either have good enoug grades or accumulated waiting semesters
05:22:50 <supermop> the public schools each have variying amounts of independence from their state, and varying motivations and goals
05:23:16 <supermop> and the private universities are sort of unchecked
05:23:49 <supermop> which causes many public universities to go to great lengths to try to match them
05:24:21 <supermop> and other private universities are not at all competitive
05:24:49 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: are german universities federal or state governed?
05:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> in the german federal system, education is strictly a state business, and there is even a ban on "cooperation" between the states [which is currently under controversial debate]
05:26:08 <supermop> are they funded by state taxes?
05:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so universities are usually state funded, but also have some autonomy
05:26:26 <supermop> so that rich states would have better funded programs?
05:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that could be the case, but i don't think it has a lot of effect in practice
05:28:08 <supermop> here tuition is relatively cheap if you are a state resident at a state university, but full price if not
05:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> tuition isn't really a thing in germany
05:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you go to a private university
05:29:09 <supermop> so state schools are mandated to primarily serve their residents but try to attract as many foreign students as the reasonably can to subsidize the cost
05:29:36 <supermop> to a lesser extent with us residents from other states too
05:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago there was a court case, which, on an almost unrelated topic, said there isn't actually a ban on tuition fees. then some states enacted fees of about 500€ per semester, but all those states rolled back the tuition fees again
05:30:11 <supermop> even before the last 15-20 years when tuition got so expensive here, this was common practice
05:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> now, the 500€ usually applies to students that exceed the regular studying time by more than 4 semesters
05:30:59 <supermop> i would have loved to pay 4000 eur to go to school
05:31:14 <supermop> instead of the 160,000 usd
05:32:14 <supermop> going back for my masters would be about another 100,000, all in loans as no college savings left obviously
05:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> most universities charge you some 50-150€ per semester, which covers some basic administrative tasks and often public transport within the city
05:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have to figure out a place to live and pay for that and your food
05:32:41 <supermop> some americans pay off their student loans when they are in their 40s or 50s
05:33:01 <supermop> and they didnt even pay as much as people of my generation
05:33:16 <supermop> back then tuition was maybe a few thousand at most a year
05:33:26 <supermop> in some cases a few hundred
05:33:52 <supermop> and more many people free if they got the right scholarships
05:35:01 <supermop> Flygon: and in the us it is almost impossible to get much of any kind of job without university degree
05:36:05 <supermop> even if you want to be a machinist or welder, you pay quite a bit for the post-secondary technical degree or certificate program
05:36:50 <Flygon> supermop: What about Trade School?
05:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there is also a student funding program which gives you money based on the income on your parents, half of which you never have to give back, and the other half you have to pay back once you get a decently paid job
05:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> (so if you have rich parents you don't get anything, if you have poor parents you get like 400€ per month)
05:39:22 <supermop> Flygon: trade school costs money, sometimes more than just going to a basic state university
05:40:38 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: schools do that here on their own, but its up to them how much, and a poor student still often ended up with a gap to pay which may be quite hard to cover
05:42:25 <supermop> even if the gap is just a few thousand dollars, they will need to take loans and work to cover all their costs, and the work may prevent them from taking classes full time, which means they take more years to graduate, so they need to get more money to pay for more school
05:44:02 <supermop> Flygon: many trade and vocational programs are borderline predatory
05:44:24 <supermop> almost none are publicly run outside of the military
05:44:44 <Flygon> Yeeaaah I wouldn't join the military
05:44:55 <supermop> you probaby can get a grant to do something weird like be a shipwright for free
05:45:30 <supermop> but if you want to do a basic in demand manufacturing job that requires special training, you are paying for it
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11:30:13 <jjavaholic> when it comes to creating ship systems it is best to place depots as close to the actual route/path ship will travel to reduce inefficiencies?
11:31:24 <planetmaker> yes. That's true for all vehicle types
11:31:33 <planetmaker> Though best it's to give explicit service orders
11:32:03 <planetmaker> Then you know when they service, where they service and you make sure they don't try to find a depot at the most inconvenient time
11:32:28 <jjavaholic> refitting orders would also count as service orders?
11:34:18 <planetmaker> I'm not 100% sure
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12:41:22 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:46:23 <_dp_> why not tcp for masterserver btw?
12:46:47 <planetmaker> too much overhead
12:49:43 <Ether_Man> Anyone that could explain the purpose of the combosignals in the steel pickup area exits?
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13:07:21 <planetmaker> Ether_Man, they relay the occupation of the following block to that very signal
13:08:16 <planetmaker> basically it means that the *exit* signals turn red when a train is leaving into that exit with the combo signal
13:08:43 <Ether_Man> Which is exactly the same as the block signal right next to it isnt it?
13:09:48 <planetmaker> looks like it, yes
13:10:02 <planetmaker> maybe V453000 can explain what he thought back then :)
13:10:24 <V453000> fuken work internet, gaming sites prohibited
13:10:27 <V453000> cant access the image :(
13:12:06 <V453000> ha, seeing it on phone
13:12:22 <V453000> so what was the question
13:12:35 <V453000> that is an overflow detection
13:12:38 <Ether_Man> V453000, the purpose of the combo signal at the exits :)
13:12:47 <V453000> you can read about that in the Overflows III article
13:13:03 <V453000> but they basically just detect all of the platforms
13:13:22 <planetmaker> but is that information used anywhere?
13:13:30 <V453000> sure at the entry signal in front of the station
13:13:36 <V453000> trains coming from overflow
13:13:44 <V453000> with the dutch catenary the signals look damn similar to PBS
13:13:59 <planetmaker> oh! That's the missing clue indeed
13:14:05 <planetmaker> I deemed them path signals
13:14:29 <V453000> the entry signal lets the train into the block, where PBS takes over
13:15:25 <planetmaker> really playing the path finders :D
13:15:54 <V453000> I say it all the time that a combined entry + PBS signal would be nice ;)
13:16:09 <Ether_Man> Sure seems like V is playing a completely different game from me at least ^_^;
13:18:02 <Ether_Man> would prefer a more realistic path reservation system myself. At least your problem there can be worked around seemingly relatively simple. Realistic pathing, cannot be done right now it seems
13:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what would the semantics of that be?
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13:18:30 <V453000> signal which lets trains pass if green from presignals AND a path would be clear?
13:18:34 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you probably want a programmable signal
13:18:41 <V453000> no programmable signals are bullshit
13:18:51 <V453000> one signal, one purpose, visually clear
13:18:59 <Ether_Man> At least not without manually programmed signals mod, and then using quite advanced logics to do so :)
13:19:07 <V453000> exactly this screenshot shows when signals look the "same" and have different usage
13:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but your need is too specific for a generic signal
13:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there are 8 visually different signal types
13:19:46 <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, it's actually not. Real signals use dwarf signals for among other things, that very purpose
13:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: dwarf signals have the exact same meaning of regular signals
13:20:20 <V453000> yes Eddi but the grf used in that screenshot makes PBS and entry look very similar
13:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> they are just smaller
13:20:27 <Ether_Man> Which are incorporated in all signals within any range of a station or switch
13:20:37 <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, no they don't.
13:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes, those are the original (TTDP) signals, which is why openttd later changed the path signals to be more visually distinct. but how is that a point against progammable signals?
13:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the game currently uses 6 of the 8 signal types, so you still have 2 signal types free to customize their behaviour
13:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: alternatively, you could invent a system to visually distinguish more signal types, without needing hundreds of sprites
13:25:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I think afd88 made a good point recently in one of the threads: signals are signals and routing can well use a visually distinctive thing (like waypoints)
13:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. using recolouring of mast signs
13:25:13 <planetmaker> it also eases the UI a lot
13:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but this isn't about routing restrictions, this is about progammable signals
13:25:49 <V453000> I dont think I will be able to do anything for openttd anytime soon at all :)
13:26:09 <V453000> programmable signals mean that you need to open some gui to see what they do I assume
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13:26:14 <V453000> which is just insane to manage and orientate in
13:26:42 <planetmaker> so you're now totally lost to factorio?
13:27:12 <V453000> atm I have both jobs, so openttd is utterly out of the question, idk if after I have only 1 job I will find some love for it
13:27:20 <V453000> but honestly, zero interest at the moment
13:27:27 <V453000> I would like to finish BRIX one day though
13:28:04 <V453000> also, nothing is sure yet :P
13:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, IMO there are two ways programmable signals could work, one would be to program an individual signal on the map, and the other would be to make a generic signal (like a template) that you can place
13:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> an entry signal template would then read "force red if all exit signals are red"
13:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and an individually programmed signal would read "force red if signal at (X,Y) is red"
13:30:05 <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, why not like real life with connecting all signals on a track to a main controller that you can then program? Basically make it two parts. One that you can program, but can reference all signals and trains on all tracks connected to it?
13:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: that may be a possibility
13:30:41 <Ether_Man> Because signals in real life are not just based on what other signals are reading, but also what the trains are doing
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13:31:07 <V453000> yay discussion de-railed to real life
13:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: that basically means all signals share a program
13:31:44 <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, in essence, yes
13:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: but that immediately causes trouble when you want to join or split such a block
13:32:13 <Ether_Man> But not just signals, also the trains
13:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: that won't happen. trains can only react to signals, they have no other way of communcication except marking their presence
13:33:17 <V453000> trains cant communicate =(
13:33:23 <Ether_Man> In TTD yes I know. That's what I would have liked to be improved
13:34:12 <Ether_Man> Like, today, we have trains choosing a path based on signals. I would prefer the opposite, where signals choose a path, and trains just follow the signals :)
13:35:18 <Ether_Man> But well, that's just me. I prefer games as realistic as possible :)
13:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: again, that is more like routing restrictions, which should be a separate feature
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20:44:54 <peter1138> hopefully they all need a passphrase... yeah right
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21:01:09 <peter1138> bah at amazon lightning deals that get "100% claimed" within seconds.
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21:43:47 <peter1138> why can i not find a paperclip? :S
21:59:57 <Hiddenfunstuff> did you remember to plug VGA, PS/2, sound?
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22:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> must have disappeared in a transdimensional fault
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22:20:11 <peter1138> i found some paperclips
22:20:16 <peter1138> in a tool chest, wtf?
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