IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-22
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00:10:36 <planetmaker> Nathan1852, the tiles do not have pink spots. If they do, you de-coded the grf wrongly.
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00:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Nathan1852: you decoded the GRF with the wrong palette
00:30:47 <Nathan1852> So what would change if I used a different one?
00:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> don't use GRF Wizard for starters. it's an ancient and unmaintained program
00:31:43 <Nathan1852> What sould I use instead?
00:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> then, use the DOS (original) palette, not the screwed up one of the windows version of TTD
00:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Nathan1852: NML is the standard program nowadays
00:33:39 <Nathan1852> -_- The Link on the forum for NML is dead
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01:30:37 <Nathan1852> How would I extract grf files with nml? I can only find commands to pack the grf, not to unpack it
01:42:02 <glx> I don't think it's possible to extract without grfcodec
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02:59:04 <Sylf> You can decode NewGRF to nfo. There may be nfo to NML converter/translator, but that won't still produce very readable code than nfo itself, as far as I know.
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05:30:24 <ade> I can't find "sprites/png/gui/introletters.png" in zbase-8fc57f008040
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08:59:22 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 23 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <Pikka> flakey andynet?
09:06:15 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Pokka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 25 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Pokka> tilt to you too
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12:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no, definitely not.
12:16:24 <andythenorth> I now have 87 vehicles in Road Hog
12:16:39 <Pikka> depends. do you feel like a winner?
12:16:51 <andythenorth> I’m hoping that I add what I think is right
12:17:01 <andythenorth> with the result being 99
12:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you win when you release.
12:17:14 <andythenorth> sometimes you lose when release :(
12:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> [that's a pun on "c'est la vie"]
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12:35:16 <andythenorth> Pikka: tried to stop your thread getting derailed into needless shit, failed sorry :)
12:35:38 <andythenorth> are you getting any traction from redditters?
12:35:46 * andythenorth has no idea about reddit, it’s for young people
12:36:15 <Pikka> a little, I'm not sure where most of the response is coming from though. Don't recognise the names.
12:36:36 <Pikka> I'm getting some through from the other language communities, the czechs and russians, which is nice.
12:37:34 <andythenorth> not sure how to help promote it
12:37:53 <andythenorth> forums are only OTTD place I really use
12:38:15 <Pikka> I don't know. I put out a few feelers to sites which have done articles on (Open)TTD before, I might possibly get something out of that
12:38:36 <planetmaker> from our google+ account a line was posted as well
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13:19:06 <andythenorth> pax and mail tram progression
13:20:14 <andythenorth> cargo trams are easy, 50t, 25mph-> 80t, 35mph, -> 110t, 45mph
13:20:31 <andythenorth> all about the same length, or new one is shorter than old, so more trams fit in a tile
13:20:36 <andythenorth> player wins every time
13:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't want more than one tram per tile, it doesn't mix well with the drive through stops
13:21:20 <andythenorth> pax trams get bigger and faster, but also double-deck -> multiple unit single deck
13:21:33 <andythenorth> this is bad for capacity per tile :(
13:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> then don't make double decker trams
13:22:09 <andythenorth> not very british though :)
13:22:33 <Alberth> non-britsh tram roster :)
13:22:52 <andythenorth> the grain tram is norwegian :P
13:22:58 <andythenorth> the dump tram is USA :P
13:23:05 <andythenorth> the beer tram is made up
13:23:18 <Alberth> international tram roster
13:23:50 <andythenorth> I should have matched rosters to FIRS economies or TTD climates
13:23:56 <andythenorth> not countries :P
13:25:24 <Alberth> s/british/temperate/ and done :)
13:26:05 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse, we also included Ireland and ‘pretend things that people made up but never got built really'
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13:40:23 <Pikka> goodnight all, uni in the morning :)
13:43:08 <Alberth> you can see the gradient from that? :)
13:43:14 <Alberth> maybe it goes down-hill :)
13:43:30 <andythenorth> I’m assuming the posts are vertical :)
13:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: photos are unreliable for determining grades, as the lenses distort everything
13:51:58 <andythenorth> the rocks on the right hand side suggest a rising grade though
13:52:00 <andythenorth> amongst other things
13:52:15 <andythenorth> there are probably plenty of examples online of visual illusions proving this is a fallacy
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13:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even if you can say it's a rising grade, the steepness is still unreliable
13:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i've seen trams climb some pretty steep grades
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14:00:10 <andythenorth> so Road Hog has double-deck buses (slow, high capacity)
14:00:19 <andythenorth> and single-deck coaches, fast, high capacity
14:00:41 <andythenorth> but coaches are not as high as the buses
14:01:01 <andythenorth> but all are 8/8 or less
14:01:12 <andythenorth> this doesn’t work for trams
14:01:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pax trams need to be very high capacity per tile yes?
14:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say 1 tram (1 tile) should be able to replace 3 single deck busses (1/2 tile)
14:03:31 <andythenorth> yeah that’s fine
14:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming double deck busses have 50% more capacity than single deck, then that would make those equal
14:04:07 <andythenorth> trying to figure out if there are 2 types of tram or 1
14:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> one type should suffice
14:04:33 <andythenorth> IRL isn’t actually a problem here
14:04:50 <andythenorth> single-deck trams have high standing capacity, whereas double-deck don’t
14:04:57 <andythenorth> so they net out about the same
14:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said, right?
14:05:37 <andythenorth> decision is whether to have double-deck trams (for variety and realism) or not
14:05:57 <andythenorth> cost is that trams suddenly get much longer around 1960
14:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, trams did get much longer around 1960...
14:06:48 <andythenorth> is that bad for gameplay?
14:06:58 <andythenorth> auto-replace: block all stations
14:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a challenge, not necessarily terrible
14:07:35 <andythenorth> current roster is mutable
14:07:54 <andythenorth> steam tram (engine + double deck trailer), 2 units
14:08:04 <andythenorth> 2 models of single unit double deck
14:08:13 <andythenorth> then 2 models of multiple unit single deck
14:10:30 <andythenorth> hmm, the multiple unit single deck could be a new option from 1960
14:10:47 <andythenorth> requiring stations to be adjusted
14:10:51 <andythenorth> dunno, probably overthinking
14:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV has a problem that in the 1990s, trams go from 1.2 tiles to 2 tiles, without properly increasing capacity. that actually is terrible
14:14:03 <andythenorth> seems pointless :)
14:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV has an inconsisty with mapping real length to game length
14:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but i never quite could convince Uwe to fix it
14:16:49 * andythenorth wonders whether to approach trams more radically
14:16:55 <andythenorth> and keep a fixed length for all time
14:17:03 <andythenorth> that is how Iron Horse does metro
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14:47:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you ever move mail in your games?
14:51:28 <Hiddenfunstuff> isnt mail quite worthless and uesless?
14:51:47 <Hiddenfunstuff> and usually low quantities so its not even worth putting trains for it
14:51:51 <planetmaker> I value the mail I get - except when it's bills :)
14:52:03 <Hiddenfunstuff> aka once in year?
14:52:31 <andythenorth> mail between cities is easy, just add mail wagons to a train
14:52:38 <andythenorth> but within cities with trucks or trams?
14:52:54 <Hiddenfunstuff> bill, bill, bill, complaint, bill, bill, speeding ticket, bill, bill, complaint, bill ...
14:59:22 <V453000> I read add mail wagons to brain
15:00:31 <Hiddenfunstuff> instructions unclear, mailed my brain
15:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i rarely do mail, mostly because overabundance of passengers takes all my attention
15:00:37 <andythenorth> that’s what I wrote V453000
15:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> with a town production factor of 1/4 i might do mail properly
15:01:50 <Hiddenfunstuff> well tbh.. I rarely even bother with passengers either
15:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, whether i do or do not use mail, doesn't mean you can alter your obligation to provide proper mail transport :p
15:04:14 <andythenorth> more a question about whether you have valid opinion :)
15:04:31 <andythenorth> I am unsure about sizing of mail (also express freight) trams
15:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> my opinion is that you should handle mail like any of your other cargo trams
15:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in CETS, mail capacity is probably larger than default. but i really have not spent much time on it
15:05:44 <andythenorth> the Road Hog trucks do 30 / 30 / 50 / 50 bags of mail
15:06:09 <andythenorth> dunno if that works yet
15:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the same ratio of 3 single-length trucks = 1 double-length tram should apply
15:06:54 <andythenorth> who builds mail trams, really? o_O
15:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but on the base value, i cannot give you any advise
15:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, mail trams existed
15:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> London also has a mail-underground ;)
15:07:32 <andythenorth> but in game, there is usually no room for freight tram stops
15:07:47 <andythenorth> due to pax tram stops + queuing
15:11:44 <Alberth> with RV, I usually move the mail trucks to another street
15:12:28 <andythenorth> trams are trickier I think, due to turning loops
15:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there are certainly many valid approaches to a mail network in parallel to a passenger network in a town
15:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you have a grain tram and a beer tram, there's no reason to not have a mail tram
15:14:21 <V453000> everything is a beer tram in hiding
15:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> if all you have is beer goggles, everything is a beer.
15:17:08 <Alberth> we'll just rename every cargo to "beer" :p
15:17:58 <Alberth> stockpile: inifnite, until V arrived
15:18:13 <andythenorth> not convinced by the pax trams
15:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well, it's not like you have full control over an industry set to achueve this
15:20:34 <andythenorth> actually those pax trams are definitely suck
15:20:42 <andythenorth> the length progression just looks dumb
15:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm somewhat indifferent
15:23:28 <andythenorth> beer solution is all one size
15:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> beer is certainly not all one size. if you order one beer in cologne, you get 0,2l. if you order one beer in munich, you get 1l
15:27:21 <andythenorth> well when you’ve tried all the beers, tell me how to fix pax and mail trams
15:27:37 <andythenorth> the cargo trams are now satisfactory, thanks to help from [random irc people]
15:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you never tried all the beers
15:28:18 <andythenorth> the pax and freight RVs are also satisfactory, for some value of satisfactory
15:28:26 <andythenorth> factoring in overtaking, station type etc :P
15:41:13 <V453000> doing some serious BRIX progress
15:41:20 <V453000> tracks being done now
15:47:40 * andythenorth wonders why openttd doesn’t persist settings
15:47:44 <andythenorth> it’s a persistent irritation
15:48:02 <andythenorth> I have changed the build-while-paused settings maybe a hundred times now
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16:01:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not openttd, it's you.
16:01:42 <andythenorth> is there a save button?
16:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> either you change settings from within the game, which doesn't persist on the next game you start
16:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or your openttd.cfg file (or the directory) is write protected
16:02:29 <andythenorth> 100% explains it
16:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> change it on the main menu, and it should persist
16:03:54 <andythenorth> I have openttd open all the time
16:04:07 <andythenorth> but I never leave it on the main menu, due to sound effects
16:04:17 <andythenorth> I leave it in a game, then use ‘newgame’ in console
16:04:43 <andythenorth> thus no persisting of settings
16:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use the "settings_newgame" [or similar] console command
16:05:03 <andythenorth> I did patch out the main menu sound effects once
16:05:08 <andythenorth> but patches die :P
16:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> just replace opntitle.dat
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16:55:36 <txtsd> how can I make a 'very flat' world without 50% of it being water?
16:55:55 <txtsd> I set sea level to 1, but the map still generates with 50% water
16:56:17 <Eddi|zuHause> make a heightmap in your favourite image processing program
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16:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if you feel you have trouble coming up with suitible random shapes, try making a non-flat map, export it as heightmap, scale down the colours in the heightmap, and import that heightmap
17:00:50 <txtsd> That sounds like a lot of work for a one-click feature
17:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> also, turn off variety distribution
17:01:25 <txtsd> oh I haven't tried fiddling with that option. Let me try it and get back.
17:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it runs an extra flattening step over the map, which might be too much for a map that already is flat
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17:04:36 <txtsd> ok turning it off got me the kind of map I want
17:05:41 <txtsd> I've been watching OpenTTD lets play videos all day. I read about the game in a thread on the archlinux forums earlier today. I'm ready to play my own game now!
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17:18:45 <txtsd> Are there prerequisites for getting Oil Rigs on the map? I haven't seen a single one on the temperate maps I've been generating
17:18:55 <txtsd> The wiki doesn't mention anything special
17:19:11 <Alberth> after 1960, temperate climate
17:19:48 <Alberth> hmm, generating, not sure if they appear then
17:20:05 <txtsd> So they'll just appear as I play once I hit 1960?
17:20:09 <Alberth> generating and regular industry spawning during play are different things
17:20:35 <Alberth> it should happen gradually, but yep
17:21:09 <Alberth> there is probably also the requirement of having some water :p
17:21:35 <Alberth> default even demands water near the edge
17:21:38 <txtsd> I have water on all edges of my maps
17:22:46 <Alberth> and you need industry spawaning, ie no newgrfs that block industry creation or closure (to a lesser extent)
17:23:07 <Alberth> but if you play default, that should be fine
17:23:22 <txtsd> Gotcha. I only have Japanese town and city names for newgrfs. I don't want to stray too much.
17:24:12 <Alberth> you could check out the opengfx+ newgrfs, they are in the spirit of default game play, but just a little nicer
17:24:31 <Alberth> opengfx+industries however fails with toyland climate :(
17:24:50 <txtsd> Is it better than zbase?
17:24:57 <txtsd> zbase looks good enough for me
17:25:29 <Alberth> they only change behaviour, no need graphics (except opengfx+landscape I think)
17:26:02 <Alberth> zbase looks too flat and unfinished for me
17:26:25 <Alberth> so I play opengfx or even original base set
17:26:51 <Alberth> but I guess it's just what you're used to :)
17:27:10 <txtsd> Ok I'll download and try them out. Thanks for the suggestion!
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18:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> whoever's responsible for the changelog, i think it should include all previous releases of a major version (so 1.5.1 changelog includes all changes for 1.5.0 as well)
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18:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> not what i meant...
18:12:40 <andythenorth> IRL, trams used to sometimes run in convoys
18:12:46 <andythenorth> not connected, but closely following :P
18:13:02 * andythenorth considers how that would look in the buy menu: “Tram Convoy"
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18:49:50 <andythenorth> probably bad for gameplay?
18:50:14 <andythenorth> biggest tram is 19/8 long
18:50:32 <andythenorth> shortest is 10/8
18:53:08 <Supercheese> looks better for lengths yeah
18:53:24 <Supercheese> the first longer then shorter progression was odd
18:54:32 <andythenorth> if we want double deck trams, they can be separate
18:54:46 <andythenorth> hmm, the first steam one is double deck, but anyway :P
18:55:06 <andythenorth> I’ll wait for Eddi’s comments on lengths
18:55:48 <andythenorth> I ran a few tests last week, 18/8 seems to be an optimum length for station performance, but it wasn’t very scientific
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18:59:45 <Alberth> pretty much all software runs by testing :p
19:02:16 <andythenorth> if it was scientific, I might have a hypothesis, instead of vague empiricism :P
19:05:06 <andythenorth> anyway, tramz :P
19:05:09 <andythenorth> are getting more done
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19:07:24 <Alberth> the scientific approach takes too long, you'd have to compare each length with every other length
19:07:42 <andythenorth> I used a subset :P
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19:07:52 <andythenorth> and no combinations of different lengths
19:08:02 <andythenorth> it was a monoculture of lengths
19:08:33 <Alberth> that can be good, see eg nuts :)
19:09:25 <V453000> ah andy with his length mess
19:09:57 <andythenorth> ideally all vehicles would be 8/8
19:09:57 <V453000> I would just make a total length the same for all vehicles, and make them consist of various lengths of articulated things
19:10:10 <V453000> makes it look fun and work fine
19:10:48 <andythenorth> shall I do that for the pax tramz?
19:10:57 <andythenorth> makes station building easy throughout the game
19:11:30 <V453000> for RVs I think various lengths are kind of nice
19:11:52 <V453000> I suppose it is good to keep them in half-tile multiplications, but it is fun to choose a longer/shorter vehicle
19:12:01 <andythenorth> contradicting your previous statement :P
19:12:24 <V453000> thought you mean trains
19:12:38 <V453000> if trains have odd lengths, it is bad because they combine one train
19:12:54 <V453000> RVs are one vehicle as a whole, so the length of the unit nicely matters
19:13:21 <andythenorth> length affects station performance…
19:13:23 <V453000> of course it kind of applies to trains too but RVs can autoreplace from long to short and back without any losses etc
19:13:28 <V453000> sure, but also road performance
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19:13:45 <V453000> more density = more road capacity, same as stations
19:14:17 <andythenorth> I don’t like that long tram
19:16:36 <andythenorth> I cba to test them against each other though
19:16:46 <andythenorth> also I haven’t used them in a game :P
19:18:46 <V453000> WHY CARE ABOUT A GAME! :D
19:21:36 <andythenorth> I will have to think about it :(
19:25:42 <andythenorth> tell me a number
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19:35:08 <andythenorth> now I have to decide what that is for
19:35:42 <andythenorth> really small mail trams?
19:36:45 <Alberth> that works with trains, normally, you never need many mail wagons with passenger trains
19:37:54 <andythenorth> 4 bags of mail? o_O
19:38:02 * andythenorth actually just uses Eddi’s suggestion :)
19:38:52 <Alberth> sounds like a fair interpretation of 4 :)
19:38:59 <andythenorth> you won’t be wanting trams in small towns :P
19:39:46 <Alberth> I don't want trams unless BB asks me to :p
19:40:03 <Alberth> trams are nice for short industrial cargo transport though
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19:41:28 <Alberth> should we have goals like "build 5 trams"? :p
19:41:44 <Alberth> sounds more like "achievement unlocked!"
19:42:26 <andythenorth> might be interesting to vary the cargo goals
19:42:51 <andythenorth> worried about overloading BB
19:43:04 <andythenorth> “construct an industry supplying [cargo]”
19:43:15 <andythenorth> “supply x tonnes every month to town z”
19:43:41 <andythenorth> “provide a ferry service"
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20:02:28 <Supercheese> any actual hogs in Road Hog yet?
20:04:08 <andythenorth> eh, if the biggest trams can’t keep stations clear in a 10k popn. city
20:04:12 <andythenorth> there’s no point?
20:05:02 <Alberth> I wouldn't try that with trams :p
20:05:15 <andythenorth> what else would you do without station walking?
20:05:36 <Alberth> regular train station
20:05:39 <Supercheese> or metro or whatever you have it
20:05:47 <Alberth> or don't care about waiting pax
20:08:16 <andythenorth> Iron Horse metro does 400 pax in 1 tile length @ 65mph
20:08:42 <andythenorth> the biggest Road Hog tram does 180 pax in 1.2 tile length @65 mph
20:08:52 * andythenorth considers rebalancing
20:09:59 <Alberth> why have hog trams at all, if they are in iron horse?
20:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> why is setting double size gui disabled?
20:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently it's tied to the max zoom level
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20:31:03 <peter1138> Maximum zoom affects maximum zoom, how odd.
20:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, it is odd, because the two settings are in totally unrelated places
20:36:17 * andythenorth wishes there was a way to space out trams
20:36:33 <peter1138> Someone said the place where it is was going to go away, so I left it.
20:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i spaced out trams, said way didn't even exist yet
20:38:29 <andythenorth> I tried timetables once, but they don’t do anything
20:39:02 <peter1138> They're useful to have all your vehicles bunched up together while being flagged as late...
20:39:15 <andythenorth> yeah that’s what happened
20:39:24 <andythenorth> and also to spend a lot of time clicking stuff
20:39:33 <andythenorth> and wonder why the interface gives no clues
20:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> run timetable filling, reduce wait time at intermediate stations, increase wait time at end stations, make sure overtaking is possible at some place, and then use the vehicle spacing hidden feature
20:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> overtaking preferably at those end stations
20:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> even without setting all the start dates manually, that is still a tedious task
20:41:55 <andythenorth> anyway 240 pax trams that fit in 1.5 tiles
20:42:00 <andythenorth> seems to work for this big city
20:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds reasonable
20:48:10 <andythenorth> I’m clearing 2/3 of the pax with no blocking
20:48:16 <andythenorth> city keeps growing though :P
21:00:52 <andythenorth> 40 pax per tram makes a huge difference to station clearance
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21:05:02 <Alberth> at 240 trams, sounds likely:)
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21:30:20 <andythenorth> so the terrain generation fixes now actuall make nice maps :D
21:31:31 <andythenorth> mountainous isn’t
21:31:36 <andythenorth> but we can’t have everything :)
21:31:41 <andythenorth> alpinist seems to work
21:31:47 <andythenorth> mountainous is a synonym for ‘flat'
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22:24:16 <Alberth> happens every now and then :p
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continue to next day ⏵
