IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-23
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02:01:44 <acklayy> I have a general question, me and my buddy want to Play Together vs each other... but we can never find each other when trying to make a mulitplayer game?
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08:00:20 <ade> nmlc ERROR: "sprites/extra/extra-openttd-recolour.pnml", line 2: OTTD_RECOLOUR is not a valid sprite replacement type
08:00:20 <ade> Included from: "ogfxe_extra.pnml", line 25
08:03:18 <ade> compile the opengfx by nml0.3.1
08:08:09 <Supercheese> I don't think I've ever compiled ogfx before
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09:02:38 <V453000> Pikka your thread got polluted by Baldys Boss XD
09:02:49 <Pikka> he's an insightful fellow
09:25:21 <planetmaker> ade, you need a newer NML. try 0.4.0 or newer
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09:55:32 <andythenorth> Zuu: good thread :)
09:55:56 <andythenorth> I am away for a few weeks soon, I won’t be able to make a grf for this immediately
09:56:02 <andythenorth> McZapkie or someone else might
09:56:06 <Zuu> Maybe a bit lengthy, but I took the chance to also sumarize what has been done so far in one place.
09:56:22 <andythenorth> there are a few people active writing industry grfs at the moment
09:57:10 <Zuu> andythenorth: Yeah, you told me. Well let's see if anyone is interested.
09:57:12 * andythenorth would use the value in cb 29 to set a tile red / green / blue / yellow
09:57:55 <Zuu> Assuming that doesn't need the animation callback, it sounds good.
09:58:48 <ade> I'm working a NewGRF base on capitalismlab.com
10:01:30 <andythenorth> Zuu: the GS will set the bits in var 10?
10:04:31 <planetmaker> intriguing patch series idea :)
10:05:03 <Zuu> Well at the moment the series is quite short :-)
10:05:25 <andythenorth> I can’t remember how to extract a var with nml when there’s no keyword for it
10:05:43 <andythenorth> with a bitmask and shift?
10:06:11 <andythenorth> having an industry push this permanent storage is trivial, planetmaker could write it for you in 5 mins :)
10:06:23 <andythenorth> I could do it in 10 mins, if I was a better programmer
10:07:08 <planetmaker> var 0x10 and 0x18 are extra_callback_info1 and extra_callback_info2
10:08:02 <andythenorth> so: random_prod_change: STORE_TEMP(extra_callback_info_1, 0x01);
10:08:22 <planetmaker> that's temporary storage, but yes
10:08:31 <planetmaker> you probably wanted STORE_PERM :)
10:08:38 <andythenorth> random_prod_change: STORE_PERM(extra_callback_info_1, 1)
10:08:50 <andythenorth> and registers can be accessed without hex afaict
10:09:20 <planetmaker> you do not need hex anywhere, also nowhere in nfo. In some places it's just more convenient
10:09:26 <andythenorth> I would recommend patching ogfx+ industries or such to do that
10:09:33 <planetmaker> a number is a number is a number. There are just ways to write it down :)
10:09:36 <andythenorth> it’s probably easier and faster to compile than FIRS
10:09:52 <andythenorth> and also haircut
10:09:53 <planetmaker> can't right now, ^
10:09:54 <Zuu> And the permanent storage can be inspected by newgrf_developer_tools?
10:10:06 <andythenorth> there’s a grid of values in the UI for it
10:13:19 <andythenorth> I’m not sure whether just returning that STORE_PERM will give a valid cb result
10:13:36 <andythenorth> it might need to be in a switch chain, storing, and then giving a valid return value to the cb
10:19:59 <planetmaker> yes, there needs to be some valid return value to the CB
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10:29:18 <Zuu> Currently the patch discards the value returned by NewGRF. With some work it is possible to rely it back to the GS. This happens eg. when a GS create some new object and get the ID of the object back through some sort of global variable where the new ID is stored so the GS API can pick it up later when the command returns, possible in a different tick than it was called.
10:31:36 <planetmaker> uh, I first have to untar the file to see tha patches? :D
10:31:57 <planetmaker> ah, that's the GS, sorry
10:32:31 <Zuu> It is only a 01.patch at the moment :-)
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18:01:48 <Lantizia> Hey it's been a whilst since i've played and the 'difficulty options' are gone
18:02:04 <Lantizia> i can't see a way to turn off competitors - where is this? it doesn't seem to be in the advanced settings
18:02:47 <Lantizia> hmm - ok think i've found max no. competitors in the AI/Game script bit - but after a little while into the game it still tries to make one :S
18:04:02 <frosch123> changing settings in main menu is different from changing settings in-game
18:04:09 <frosch123> main menu only affects new games
18:06:47 <Lantizia> ok - then new question... if I've downloaded a map... how can I start a new game on that map without using 'Play Scenarion'
18:06:54 <Lantizia> which seems to force the scenarios rules on me
18:09:30 <frosch123> load it in scenario editor and change the rules
18:10:36 <Lantizia> that seems - reeaally dumb
18:10:53 <Lantizia> i don't think even the original ttdlx had this issue
18:11:01 <Lantizia> you could just rename ss0's to sav's and they'd open
18:11:18 <frosch123> you can still do that
18:11:24 <frosch123> but that doesn't change the settings
18:12:15 <Lantizia> when i open it in the scenario editor - can I just tell it to use my default settings for new games? and save?
18:13:31 <Zuu> In the settings window, there is a filter to show only the settings that has a different value compared to your new game settings.
18:14:45 <Zuu> This filter is in the category drop down btw.
18:14:52 <Lantizia> yeah i've seen it before
18:15:01 <Lantizia> still means i have to rechoose everything though yes?
18:16:14 <Zuu> Unless there is a console command for it or some solution, I don't see, you have to go through the settings that show up with this filter and one by one change them so that they disappear form the list.
18:16:27 <frosch123> Lantizia: really, why are you using a scenario then?
18:16:39 <frosch123> if you only want the shape, you can also save it as heightmap
18:18:14 <Lantizia> frosch123, well i want the towns and roads - etc.. not just shape
18:18:30 <Lantizia> i just don't want the authors rules and settings - that would see (to me) to be a very usual thing to request
18:18:37 <Lantizia> load in the map - just don't in their settings
18:19:33 <frosch123> that approach fails for half of the settings
18:19:53 <frosch123> settings also affect where industries can be built and such
18:20:16 <Lantizia> right but if your loading a map that already has maps, industries, roads, etc... - no problem
18:21:05 <frosch123> haha, that would likely give 1000 people complaining that the industry number reduce to 1/10 within 3 years :p
18:21:18 <frosch123> maps are not static
18:21:21 <frosch123> they change all the time
18:21:27 <frosch123> towns change, industries change
18:22:06 <Lantizia> i really don't see what the issue in
18:22:21 <Lantizia> load in the actual map ... don't load in settings - just assume the global/default ones
18:23:09 <Lantizia> i'm sure ttdlx was the same - no settings were stored in the actual save files - as you could change them after starting a game
18:24:41 <Zuu> Having them in the save file makes it easier when you switch between different games. And make it easier to reproduce bugs as well.
18:25:13 <frosch123> yes, ttd had that option
18:25:23 <frosch123> but it was trashed when it was no longer possible to support
18:25:29 <frosch123> because of more advanced settings
18:25:41 <frosch123> anyway, my point was mood, industries close in all custom scenarios
18:25:52 <frosch123> probably why scenarios generally are unpopular
18:30:15 <Zuu> Default industries close after some time when not beeing served. New industries are opened at random place.
18:30:47 <Zuu> You can find out more in the wiki if you like to know more on the logics behind closure.
18:31:10 <Lantizia> that was the same in ttdlx anyway
18:32:39 <Zuu> Well, when making a scenario you may want to turn off industry closure and also random industry generation. To do so you need a mixture of both a NewGRF and settings to achieve this.
18:33:24 <Zuu> If your new game settings, doesn't include the setting to turn of generation of new industries, the scenario will have new industry generation, but no closure.
18:33:46 <Lantizia> i don't normally use newgrf - i'm on original ttd gfx's/music/sound
18:34:20 <Zuu> But if you load a scenario, you get the NewGRFs it has choosen.
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18:34:45 <Lantizia> ??? graphics come with scenarions?
18:34:52 <Lantizia> is NewGFX more than just graphics?
18:35:45 <Zuu> NewGRF contain much more than just graphics. It contains rules for industries, vehicels etc. that the NewGRF provides.
18:36:12 <Zuu> For example a NewGRF can make vehicles cost half price at 24 dec every year if it wish. :-)
18:36:32 <Lantizia> then it (as well as heightmaps) has a very confusing name
18:37:17 <Zuu> You could read it out as New Game Resource File if it helps you.
18:37:36 <Lantizia> i always thought GFX was graphics
18:37:58 <frosch123> that's what it was 10 years ago :p
18:37:58 <planetmaker> that's why it's called grf - game resource file :)
18:38:37 <glx> even 10 years ago it contained stuff not related to graphics
18:40:17 <Lantizia> i now just feel like loading up ttdlx - at least i know where I am with that
18:40:42 <Lantizia> this just has too many hidden options, mods, and terminology (that tbh needs eliminating in a future major release)
18:42:14 <andythenorth> all this newfangled stuff is silly
18:43:28 <Zuu> although that doesn't allow 64x64 maps which is also kind of interesting. :-)
18:44:34 <Lantizia> why would you want such a tiny map?
18:45:08 <Zuu> I played a MP with 4-5 companies on 64x128 once. It was very interesting.
18:45:09 <Lantizia> umm, a short and boring game
18:45:26 <Zuu> The game played for several hours.
18:45:48 <Lantizia> i don't see ttdlx that way
18:45:52 <Lantizia> it's a days on end thing
18:45:59 <andythenorth> preferably without sleep
18:46:13 <andythenorth> or attending to bodily functions
18:49:15 <Alberth> shorter quarry looks much nicer andy, more in line with the other industries
18:49:27 <andythenorth> I think it’s an improvement
18:49:30 <andythenorth> also more layouts
18:50:34 <Alberth> yeah, more variation :)
18:50:43 <Alberth> and better placement probably
18:53:00 <andythenorth> way more placement options
18:53:15 <andythenorth> I got very detailed with which tiles can have foundations under them :P
18:53:35 <andythenorth> btw, for terminology, I proposed just renaming everything as ‘mod’
18:53:43 <andythenorth> newgrf, GS, heightmap, AI, patch
18:53:50 <andythenorth> it will simplify it greatly for the player
19:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> terminology is really easy to pick up
19:10:51 <planetmaker> no no, you get it all wrong. It's sooo confusing, Eddi|zuHause !
19:10:59 <andythenorth> we can do a major release eliminating it
19:11:01 <andythenorth> it will be great
19:11:17 <planetmaker> it also became all much simpler as every type of programme is nowadays called 'app'
19:11:29 <andythenorth> c.f. the long discussion about deleting everything
19:11:34 <andythenorth> best discussion we’ve had here for a while
19:11:42 <andythenorth> what does ‘c.f.’ mean?
19:12:34 <andythenorth> "The abbreviation cf. derives from the Latin word confer, while in English it is commonly read as "compare"."
19:12:40 * andythenorth did not know that
19:13:48 <frosch123> hmm, another latin abbreviation to add to my english :) i.e., e.g, cf.
19:13:49 <Alberth> I'd translate it as"as discussed before", or "along the lines of"
19:15:56 <frosch123> translate it as \ref :p
19:16:10 <andythenorth> I had no idea :P
19:16:27 <andythenorth> anyway, we’re deleting newgrf for 2.0?
19:16:49 <Alberth> yeah, they will be called oldgrf by then
19:16:51 <frosch123> i thought about removing the user interface
19:17:01 <frosch123> moving gameplay to ais is way more time efficient
19:17:07 <andythenorth> easier to understand
19:17:13 <andythenorth> I would keep *a* UI
19:17:17 <andythenorth> but not the current one
19:17:23 <andythenorth> just a chart showing which AI is winning
19:17:32 <andythenorth> performance will also be improved, no sprites to draw
19:17:40 <andythenorth> we can use vectors for the chart
19:17:43 <frosch123> belugas had one for his song a few years ago
19:17:52 <frosch123> it was the main screen with a single "tuut tuut" button
19:18:00 <frosch123> or was that for your kid?
19:29:43 <Wolf01> mmmh, I don't know what is worse: (o)tt(d), factorio, terraria or gnomoria...
19:31:18 <frosch123> isn't terraria really boring?
19:32:00 <Wolf01> only if you don't find anything funny to do
19:32:35 <frosch123> like drowning your co-players? :p
19:33:12 <Wolf01> or digging a 48 tiles wide hole to the hell in large maps
19:33:29 <frosch123> and flood it with the sea from the map border?
19:33:37 <Wolf01> or building a minecart rail with bumpers and jumps
19:34:05 <frosch123> minecart must be something newish
19:34:45 <Wolf01> it was there since 1.2, but in 1.3 there are lots of random tracks you can use for fast-exploring the map
19:39:28 * andythenorth can’t click with factorio
19:40:48 <Belugas> I was summoned from the deads! hello
19:41:38 <frosch123> do zombies drink coffee?
19:49:55 <V453000> okay so I made a todo list what I need in order to create a base set
19:50:06 <V453000> not very thrilled after seeing the length XD
19:50:44 <frosch123> haha, what priority did you assign to gui sprites? :p
19:50:57 <V453000> yeah somewhere around UFO
19:51:01 <frosch123> they are the most boring ones, but also those which we need most (imho)
19:51:21 <V453000> I might even do gui before industries/houses
19:51:55 <frosch123> are you going to render them? :)
19:52:08 <frosch123> more zoom levels and such
19:52:33 <V453000> most convenient way I feel like
19:52:34 <frosch123> someone tried to make svgs
19:52:42 <frosch123> but they were not particulary pretty either
19:52:48 <V453000> I might edit the x1 ones and push some pixels
19:52:55 <V453000> but the source will likely be 3D
19:54:57 <V453000> about to try sketching some signals I thin k
19:55:09 <V453000> I want roads, tracks, landscape, trees to go into 0.0.1
19:55:48 <frosch123> signals have a good rendering ratio :)
19:55:58 <frosch123> red/green almost same
19:56:08 <frosch123> signal variannts not much different and so :)
19:56:10 <V453000> sure sure but they need to look nice and clear :)
19:56:17 <V453000> trees are hell so far
19:56:35 <V453000> (I am making them kind of grow and die etc in detail)
20:15:00 <Zuu> I was bored, and tried to write some nml. I got it working except for the production change callback which is kind of the key part. Does anyone easily see why nmlc complain about unrecognized identifier? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p3cta5jsg
20:16:04 <frosch123> no "_" in front of the 1
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20:17:58 <frosch123> not sure whether just a STORE_PERM works there
20:25:25 <Zuu> Just removing the "_" before 1 make it compile.
20:25:45 <Zuu> But maybe the switch is useful still.
20:27:27 <frosch123> well, it needs some return value
20:27:35 <frosch123> otherwise i have no idea what nml would output :p
20:27:57 <Zuu> As in return value of the callback?
20:30:23 <Zuu> nmlc complain on line 12 of your version. Should there be a , between ] and {, and possible a terminating ) at line 14?
20:30:40 <frosch123> ah, the ) goes after the ]
20:34:00 <Zuu> Tried to test in trunk, but my GS crashed. :-)
20:35:13 <frosch123> you can see the persistent storage in the newgrf inspector window
20:36:09 <Zuu> Ah yes, I just need to manually repaint the window to see it.
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20:39:33 <Supercheese> yeah the newgrf debug window doesn't get automatically marked dirty and repainted very often
20:39:59 <Zuu> andythenorth: You missed I made my first NewGRF! :-)
20:40:20 <Zuu> With some help from frosch123 to actually make it work though :-)
20:43:22 <andythenorth> does it work? o_O
20:44:43 <Belugas> i drink coffee, so.. am i a zombie?
20:45:24 <Zuu> I can place signs on coal mines with integer values that show up in the NewGRF permanent store. :-)
20:47:27 <frosch123> i guess we need a real gs/industry idea for the next testcase :)
20:48:26 <frosch123> make industry production depend on other industries being serviced in the same town? or something like that?
20:48:28 <andythenorth> eh I will mod FIRS for it - but not before mid August :)
20:48:40 <andythenorth> and it will be a branch-of-a-branch :P
20:48:50 * andythenorth will have to learn how to merge properly
20:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> how about: primary industries offer contracts: "transport X amount of cargo to Y over the next 5 years", and they don't produce anything outside these contracts?
20:49:34 <andythenorth> an obvious application is electricity
20:49:38 <frosch123> or make it part of busy bee?
20:49:49 <frosch123> transport coal from A to B to make C increase production?
20:49:51 <andythenorth> production boost if a nearby power plant is supplied
20:50:37 <frosch123> that is complicated, because gs needs to know about what a powerplant is :p
20:51:06 * andythenorth ponders 3 modes for FIRS supplies: “temporary boost | level up | GS controlled"
20:51:23 <andythenorth> supplies / primary industries /s
20:51:56 <frosch123> hmm, gs can detect supplies
20:52:04 <frosch123> so, yeah, maybe we can make something special with supplies
20:52:07 <andythenorth> approximately yes
20:52:29 <andythenorth> there is nothing to handle setting text
20:52:46 <andythenorth> ach, industry window text was one of my ponies, and I forgot :P
20:53:07 <andythenorth> it’s in your newgrf draft spec somewhere frosch123
20:53:12 <frosch123> anyway, what should gs do about supplies?
20:53:24 <andythenorth> dunno, I have enough headaches with them :
20:53:45 <frosch123> should it autodistribute them to nearby industries? :p
20:53:57 <andythenorth> I have considered before delivering to, e.g. a supply depot
20:53:58 <frosch123> deliver stuff to one industry, boost all in town
20:54:01 <andythenorth> to boost all neighbouring
20:54:21 <andythenorth> I am dubious that it makes good gameplay, but eh
20:54:27 <andythenorth> experimentation is good...
20:54:27 <frosch123> ok, maybe something more silly
20:54:37 <frosch123> usually mail transport is really boring
20:54:47 <frosch123> so, make good mail service boost production of all industries :)
20:54:59 <frosch123> Zuu: how does that sound? :p
20:55:24 <andythenorth> ‘realistic’ ideas: local population, politics, geology, water supply, fuel supply
20:55:25 <frosch123> it's even realistic
20:55:32 <frosch123> you cannot sell stuff without mail
20:55:53 <frosch123> deliver all the paychecks :)
20:56:01 <V453000> maybe something as complicated as a single signal would be more interesting ;)
20:56:07 <V453000> like a combination of PBS and entry signal
20:56:24 <andythenorth> also town deliveries, food and such
20:56:25 <Zuu> frosch123: sounds like a nice and silly idea.
20:57:02 <frosch123> does it affect primary, or also secondary industries?
20:57:05 <andythenorth> good mail service in that town?
20:57:11 <Zuu> IIRC there is a love letter AI (aka MailAI) that only transports mail.
20:57:35 <andythenorth> deliver n% of the available mail / month?
20:58:24 <frosch123> n% of mail delivered from a town set production to base-production * (50% + n%)
20:58:47 <frosch123> really low if no mail, tripled if 100% mail
20:59:05 <frosch123> same for primary and secondary :p
20:59:17 <frosch123> i.e. secondary output more than delivered if they have good mail
20:59:31 <frosch123> possibly mail is averaged over 3 month or so
21:01:14 <andythenorth> so (theoretical case) that this is used with FIRS
21:01:21 <andythenorth> are supplies redundant?
21:01:29 * andythenorth ponders ways to work that
21:01:56 <Zuu> You could always include both in a formula giving both supplies and mail bonus?
21:02:15 <Zuu> But if that is desired is a different question.
21:02:45 <Zuu> Or you only get the mail bonus, if you also provide suplies.
21:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> that is complicated, because gs needs to know about what a powerplant is :p <-- there needs to be a standardized interface, where the GS asks each industry what behaviour it supports, e.g. some flags that are returned similar to the way cargo classes work
21:05:02 <frosch123> 50% if 0 (default), 100% if 128, 150% if 256, ...
21:05:54 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that exists, and sv makes use of that
21:06:09 <frosch123> but in the end you cannot check all weird newgrfs
21:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> of course not. only non-weird newgrfs will work, but there needs to be work done to decide what is "weird" and what is not
21:07:08 <frosch123> Zuu: the normal production changes of the industry are actually disabled that way, so only the gs affects production
21:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> like how long did railtypes exist until we came up with the standardized railtype scheme?
21:07:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, but purr is the only good railtype grf out there
21:07:48 <frosch123> everything else has been a disappointment
21:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was not the question :p
21:08:03 <frosch123> (except for pure graphics like swedish rails)
21:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "good" and "weird" are totally orthogonal
21:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> like wasteland is totally "weird" on almost all accounts, doesn't prevent it from being "good" in its own way
21:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or this mars set
21:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> was that ever released?
21:09:35 <andythenorth> cargo labels works
21:09:35 <frosch123> railtypes with different speed and weight limits are not interesting on any scale
21:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe not for your playstyle.
21:09:59 <andythenorth> but I cannot think where to start on defining a convention for industries
21:10:15 <andythenorth> cargo labels have a single dimension
21:10:28 <andythenorth> industry properties are n-dimensional
21:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cargo labels have the problem of not being future-proof
21:11:16 <andythenorth> seem pretty future proof to me :)
21:12:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: eddi's railtype schema totally accounts for pipelines and wetrail
21:12:27 <andythenorth> let’s do that then?
21:12:48 <andythenorth> cargo labels are a bad example, they’re just a UUID, almost zero information content
21:13:22 <frosch123> let's make a gs that favours transporting pourable cargos
21:14:01 <Zuu> frosch123: That newgrf make relative changes? Or is it ment to be absolute production levels?
21:14:28 <frosch123> set once, never changed until set again
21:14:33 <andythenorth> hmm, what is the purpose of exposing some range of industry attributes to GS?
21:14:42 <andythenorth> these are about industry behaviour?
21:14:57 <Zuu> I meant, if you make two subsequent changes, do they add up or will 255 always mean the same production?
21:15:17 <frosch123> setting to same value again does not change anything
21:15:40 <Zuu> Only, that it takes time for monthly production to shift over to the new value.
21:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like there should be ways to do both relative and absolute changes
21:16:02 <andythenorth> just set the appropriate value
21:16:03 <frosch123> a gs can easily remember what values it set
21:16:15 <andythenorth> those CBs are remarkably complete :)
21:16:27 <frosch123> relative changes are overrated
21:16:40 <frosch123> they just add an integral term, which makes stuff behave unpleasant
21:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but what if it doesn't take full control, only wants to tweak stuff here and there?
21:16:48 <andythenorth> I’ve always found the industry spec very sane and easy to work with, despite some odd bits
21:17:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so what, write a different grf
21:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like a disaster that halves all production of food
21:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we're talking about different things :p
21:18:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in this case I’m missing what you think is missing?
21:18:32 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the goal was to make mail transport affect production
21:18:52 <frosch123> i consider relative production changes the root of all evil
21:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> sure. absolute dictatorships were always better wrt. economy.
21:19:50 <frosch123> setting absolute levels depending on limited environment variables results in way better predictable/handleable behaviour
21:20:06 <frosch123> releative changes either grow to 0 or to infinity, both is terrible
21:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> they may do that, if you don't have proper feedback loops
21:20:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the current game doesn't have any useful feedback loops, though
21:20:59 <frosch123> if you add a feedback loop, setting relative or absolute values is equivalent
21:21:08 <frosch123> so, what's even your point?
21:21:25 <andythenorth> was it a spec point, or a gameplay point? o_O
21:21:51 <frosch123> no idea, maybe i should clean my dishes
21:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, my original point was a spec point about being able to set relative changes
21:22:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the spec is that there is no spec
21:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> then we diverged
21:22:53 * andythenorth has a “can’t we all be friends?” moment :(
21:23:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, we need some a14 to make newgrf give information to gs
21:23:34 <frosch123> like, industry 1 understand "gs interface 'andy's finest'"
21:23:48 <andythenorth> except I have no idea what to use it for :)
21:23:58 <frosch123> likely this would just be a key->value table, which gs can query
21:24:02 <Zuu> GS can currently read last month production. If it had current production rate, it could make accurate relative production changes.
21:24:05 <frosch123> so, one can add random other properties
21:24:41 <andythenorth> eh Eddi|zuHause are you thinking of the case where the industry is using production cb?
21:24:47 <frosch123> Zuu: above newgrf does not change production on its own, so if you remember that yuo assigned a value to the industry, you do not need to read it
21:24:49 <andythenorth> and you want to specify some message passing spec?
21:24:59 <frosch123> you have to keep track of what industries got which values anyway
21:25:36 <Zuu> frosch123: Yep, I was more thinking in general terms for other NewGRFs, in respect to the remark by Eddi.
21:26:01 <andythenorth> so that the GS / NewGRF interfaces match up
21:26:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: but i consider all those return values terrible :p
21:26:29 <andythenorth> I like 0C personally :P
21:26:33 <frosch123> did you ever use them?
21:27:03 <andythenorth> FIRS uses production cb currently for all case IIRC
21:27:18 <andythenorth> multiplier is currently ignored
21:27:26 <andythenorth> I have been wanting to change that for a long time though
21:27:40 <frosch123> [21:27] <andythenorth> multiplier is currently ignored <- exactly, and i think all proper newgrfs do that
21:28:03 <frosch123> there is nothing as useless as the production multiplier, except for interfacing the cheat :p
21:28:27 <Zuu> Which is now available as a sign cheat, yay :-)
21:28:49 <frosch123> we, should implement all ttdp sign cheats as gs :p
21:28:49 <Zuu> Or well, not the multiplier, but production change.
21:29:23 <frosch123> Zuu: the method above is already better than the production mulitplier ever could be :/
21:30:39 * andythenorth is amused by frosch123’s vitriol
21:31:54 <Zuu> Hmm, when I put a sign with 0, it doesn't go back to 120 tones of coal.
21:32:29 <Zuu> But then, my dev build is a bit slow so I haven't waited more than 2-3 months.
21:33:22 <andythenorth> can GS control move-cargo-to-station? o_O :P
21:33:42 * andythenorth didn’t know that only the two highest rated stations were served with cargo :P
21:33:48 <andythenorth> until last week or so
21:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a weird feature anyway
21:34:11 <andythenorth> it’s not appropriate to GS, runs too often
21:34:21 <andythenorth> and newgrf can’t control it
21:34:44 <andythenorth> it’s needed to fix freight cdist though
21:35:17 <Zuu> It could perhaps just be a regular setting "number of stations to deliver to". Or is there a point of allowing people to write different NewGRFs for this property?
21:36:25 <Zuu> frosch123: Does 0 mean that it pass back control to OpenTTD?
21:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: i doubt there is a case to make for NewGRFs to do this
21:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm not sure what sane settings would be there
21:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should be changed to a two-step model: all stations of one company get averaged, and then the two players with the highest average get the cargo. then it's distributed between all stations of that player
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21:41:59 <frosch123> Zuu: 0 means 50% of default, there is no passing back control
21:42:18 <frosch123> without gs the industry will never change production or even close :)
21:43:44 <Zuu> Hmm, when the map was created, it had 120 tonnes. When setting to 0 it went down shortly to 176 and is now back at 198. Hmm and now on 176 again, and then on 198.. Hmm
21:44:05 <Zuu> Maybe an affect of moths with different lengths?
21:47:13 <Zuu> But right, it do react to 0, 128, 255, 512 etc. I was only surprised that 0, gave a higher production than when the map was fresh.
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21:48:30 <Zuu> Hmm.. that said, restarting the game and waiting some time (without placing any sign) will make it change from 120 to 176/198 tonnes.
21:49:00 <Zuu> So I guess it is confirmed it do work rather predictable.
21:52:46 <andythenorth> first month production is usually weird
21:53:01 <andythenorth> and yes, you’re seeing variation due to 8 or 9 production cycles in a specific
21:53:42 <Zuu> Then I learned something new :-)
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22:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: production runs every 256 ticks. there are about 8.8 production cycles fitting into each month
22:06:27 <frosch123> it produces 180 tons at 0?
22:06:35 <frosch123> i expected something like 60...
22:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 176 is a weird value, it's 11*16
22:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so it produced 22 cargo per step
22:07:42 <frosch123> so i expected 60 to 68
22:12:07 <andythenorth> what is production_rate_1 set to?
22:12:12 <andythenorth> this is default coal mine?
22:13:07 <andythenorth> yeah 60 would have been my expectation
22:13:31 <andythenorth> it will still produce conventionally no?
22:13:48 <frosch123> oh, that may be the case
22:14:18 <frosch123> ok, then 180 is correct :)
22:14:35 <andythenorth> even andythenorth can debug sometimes :P
22:16:02 <andythenorth> FIRS code was the clue
22:16:14 <andythenorth> ‘quadruple production’ is multiplied by 3 :P
22:16:34 <andythenorth> which adds to the base production
22:16:49 <andythenorth> took me a long time to understand that :P
22:17:42 <Zuu> Ah ok. So base production is 180 for coal mine. And 0 is 180 + 0?
22:19:38 <andythenorth> base production is about 120 or so
22:19:59 <andythenorth> and the production multiplier code adds 60 + 0
22:20:24 <andythenorth> it’s just a side effect
22:20:43 <andythenorth> it could be handled better relatively trivially
22:21:05 <andythenorth> as long as you know the cause, it’s a non-issue for the GS test :)
22:21:06 <Zuu> Those 60 is that from the formulas in the NewGRF?
22:21:38 <andythenorth> 8* ((15 * 128) / 256)
22:21:48 * andythenorth put the unnecessary brackets in, can’t read it otherwise
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22:26:23 <andythenorth> “now includes closure” :)
22:26:40 <andythenorth> are you just setting a closure bit? o_O
22:26:45 * andythenorth is not very good at shifts :P
22:27:00 <frosch123> yup, just a closure bit :)
22:27:12 <frosch123> i guess i can compile a complete manual industries set like this
22:27:23 <frosch123> just give production and closure control to gs
22:27:28 <frosch123> they can fund stuff anyway
22:27:33 <andythenorth> it’s the way forward
22:27:39 <andythenorth> more experimental branches :)
22:28:09 <Zuu> Hmm, I though GS could close industries, but I don't find that API so I was wrong until now. :-)
22:28:28 <frosch123> Zuu: cleartile might have worked
22:28:39 <frosch123> as owner_deity, but maybe not :p
22:28:54 <Zuu> frosch123: Btw, I add you to list of authors and there is a note that the grf is in GPLv2 which I think is fine to you, but may be good to you to be aware of.
22:31:01 * frosch123 ponders how to compose json structues with newgrf
22:31:20 <andythenorth> a modern, easy to compile format?
22:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i have my doubt that json fits into 15 bits :p
22:31:40 <andythenorth> compile / pasrse /s
22:31:49 <andythenorth> or parse even :(
22:31:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's the trick, it does not need to
22:31:58 <andythenorth> somebody else was borrowing my fingers :P
22:32:13 <Zuu> frosch123: You have 2 syntax errors. I fixed both though. Great you give me some nml challenges ;-)
22:32:25 <frosch123> i am just to lazy to compile myself :p
22:32:31 <frosch123> i typed it right into the paste
22:32:40 <frosch123> and coop paste has no nml syntax checker :p
22:32:41 <Zuu> One is in the switch and one is for prod_multiplier.
22:32:46 <frosch123> (at least i hope it does not :p )
22:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: let me divert your attention to a possible subproject: make the textstack behave like an actual stack (so any write access to a register, say 0x100, will be a push operation)
22:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (possibly 0x100/0x101/0x102 behaving like 8/16/32 bit pushes)
22:33:57 <frosch123> are you sure yuo want to do that? :p
22:34:13 <frosch123> that makes it nearly impossible for nml to optimise action2 chains
22:34:19 <frosch123> if the order of assignment suddenly matters
22:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it would simplify like 10 LOC of CETS :p
22:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you need sequence points :p
22:35:28 <frosch123> rather add a action2 operand, which uses indirect adressing of word on the textstack
22:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (one of the weirdest semantics of C)
22:35:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: is the json a manifest?
22:35:50 <andythenorth> or something else?
22:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how does that resolve this?
22:41:14 <frosch123> you would be able to store 8 and 16 bit values without having to OR them
22:45:15 <Zuu> frosch123: To close a coal mine, I should place a sign with 65536?
22:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but you would still have to keep track at which position in the stack you are
22:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which defeats the point of a stack
22:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it not a stack at all, basically.
22:47:43 <Zuu> It doesn't close for me :-/
22:47:55 <frosch123> Zuu: it shoudl announce closure on next 1st
22:48:00 <frosch123> and close on second next 1st
22:48:21 <Zuu> It changes production to 40-50 tonnes a month.
22:49:06 <frosch123> yes, the 0x10000 is a flag, production is still set
22:52:01 <andythenorth> the start of a technology ladder :) :P
22:52:13 <andythenorth> vehicles next :P
22:52:59 <Zuu> I get no news message and no closure. :-/
22:54:29 <frosch123> well, might check saturday
22:54:35 <frosch123> i won't be here tomorrow
22:54:35 <andythenorth> why is L 38 returning CB_RESULT_IND_PROD_CLOSE?
22:55:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: c&p :)
22:55:15 <frosch123> should be NO_CHANGE
22:56:12 <andythenorth> the problem will just be a shift that is wrong or similar
22:57:41 <andythenorth> Zuu: strictly, these industries should have been closing straight away, according to the paste :)
22:58:01 <frosch123> only when the random change triggers
22:58:21 <frosch123> which highlights a flaw of our current 'experimental branch'
22:58:32 <frosch123> the random change resets the gs data :p
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23:01:04 <frosch123> hmm, "json template" is no good google term
23:01:30 <frosch123> it only gives results which use json to set template parameters
23:01:31 <Zuu> So it should use some bit in var 10 to indicate it is a call from GS. and NewGRf only set permanent store if that bit is set. Can NewGRF do that?
23:01:35 <frosch123> but none to output json :p
23:02:01 <Zuu> Or we are just aware of it for now, and it will be fixed once GS get its own callback.
23:02:07 <frosch123> Zuu: in theory yes, but if we care about that, we should rather add a new callback :p
23:02:20 <Zuu> I think we just don't care for now.
23:02:21 <frosch123> it's good enough for the experimental branch
23:02:55 <Zuu> GS could spam the industries with updates to work around it. :-)
23:03:01 <frosch123> hmm, "<" is no reserved character in json, right?
23:03:30 <frosch123> so, should template parameter be written like functions "PARAM(1)" or like c++ "<1>"
23:03:48 <frosch123> '{ "Supports": ["GSProduction"], "Production": PARAM(1), "Technology": PARAM(2) }'
23:04:00 <frosch123> '{ "Supports": ["GSProduction"], "Production": <1>, "Technology": <2>) }'
23:04:13 <frosch123> which one is easier to process? :p
23:04:38 <Zuu> The later is to me easier to read as human, but then I'm not trained in nml reading :-)
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23:08:31 * andythenorth must also to bed :)
23:08:32 <Zuu> Reminds me that I saw a resturant called Golden Unicorn in Finland.
23:08:44 <andythenorth> Unicorn Farm for FIRS
23:09:41 <andythenorth> nice that this patch advances :)
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