IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-19
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08:59:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: are you playing a game currently? o_O
09:01:11 <Alberth> yep, your firs try thingie
09:01:34 <Alberth> and I had a quick go with baldys boss game, but it's hopeless, so many things to fix :p
09:02:11 <Alberth> and he has tooooooo many engines, no idea what to use there :p
09:03:05 <Alberth> if you don't want to raise infra structure costs, it's going to be a challenge though
09:09:33 <Alberth> doing some restructuring of the tracks :)
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09:12:36 <Alberth> this is the firs thingie :)
09:12:49 <Alberth> you have seen an earier version before
09:13:57 * andythenorth wonders if anyone will kickstarter fund an 8bpp base set :P
09:14:15 <andythenorth> oh it’s just ogfx landscape :)
09:15:27 <Alberth> the oil refinery in the south has a timber yard right next door, I see now
09:16:24 <andythenorth> something is adding rocks to water
09:17:16 <Alberth> yeah, and they show up at the map too, I am getting confused about water industries :p
09:18:01 <andythenorth> eh, accepting that the game allows many play styles etc blah blah blah blah
09:18:05 <andythenorth> this is the right size map
09:22:14 <andythenorth> are you following Bee goals?
09:29:30 <Alberth> playing at a weird map size like 128x1024 can be fun too, every now and then :)
09:30:07 <mari_kiri> 128x1024 sounds kinda fun actually
09:30:34 <Alberth> but I made a mess of some tracks, so I recently re-organized then somewhat. Therefore, I am behind on goals
09:32:35 <andythenorth> long thin maps are fun
09:32:53 <Alberth> ha, as usual with me, each pair of tracks has a different idea of which one goes south-east :p
09:33:19 <andythenorth> it’s fine until you join networks
09:34:47 * andythenorth perplexed by tram generations :P
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09:36:42 <V453000> still playing my no-newgrf game
09:37:38 <andythenorth> V453000: the game is good, right?
09:38:27 <andythenorth> very few missing features?
09:38:32 <andythenorth> lots of minor crappy bits?
09:42:28 <V453000> nah, not much new in compare to the original ;)
09:43:00 <V453000> I dont think I am utilizing a single new feature in this game
09:43:26 <V453000> special scenario for blog article :P
09:43:58 <Alberth> for comparison I guess :)
09:44:13 <Alberth> and no copy/paste patch :p
09:49:28 <andythenorth> Road Hog is going to end up with nearly 100 vehicles per roster (roster = brit, american, la la land etc)
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09:54:31 <V453000> so what are your thoughts about kickstarter and open licenses?
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09:55:12 <V453000> is it the same as normal graphics? ie I provide full source except 3D models
09:55:42 <V453000> does "people pay for it and support it" make it more required to provide full source? does that make any sense?
09:56:40 <V453000> Pikka: good luck :) I really wish you the best in this, it could be great
09:59:49 <Alberth> from GPL point of view, "source" means whatever you use to create the result, so in my view that would include the 3d models
10:00:38 <Alberth> but there is a border somewhere, eg I don't provide you with the sources of my editor either
10:02:36 <Alberth> I see kickstarter mostly as buying time for pbird to work on it full time, much like you donate to an open source project. Big difference is however that with kickstarter you get the money beforehand, or at least you know it will be there
10:03:06 <Alberth> that makes planning to do this a lot easier :)
10:05:00 <Alberth> I don't see any problems with whatever you intend to do with the result. It would be nice if you decide something about it, tell people before hand, and stick with it :)
10:05:18 <Alberth> but in the end, it's your work.
10:05:53 <Alberth> maybe you get into legal trouble if you don't do what you promised with kickstarter though, don't know
10:06:36 <Rubidium> for "simple" things that are either drawing by hand, or pure models one could see GPL as viable, but once you get into manually retouching automatically generated (i.e. from 3D models), the whole GPL "source" definition becomes murky
10:07:36 <Alberth> no doubt some people will want to have access to the source afterwards, the risk is thus that not providing that access will turn those people away
10:08:21 <Alberth> Rubidium: nobody claims you don't need skill to work with the source, but yes, it's a very large grey area :)
10:08:28 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but I think that for such a large project someone does care what happens with the graphics
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10:41:10 <Wolf01> mmh, factorio is really a life leeching game
10:44:52 <Alberth> like TTD was orginally? :)
10:46:43 <Wolf01> like TTD is still, and OTT too, that's why I take it in little amounts
10:48:05 <Wolf01> I was placing a conveyor belt and .. BAM .. 4 hours disappeared. That was the same feeling I had when I tried to build a 6 lines junction with OTT
10:49:36 * andythenorth can’t make factorio stick
10:49:43 <andythenorth> played an hour or so
10:51:07 <andythenorth> I can see the appeal though
10:51:07 <Wolf01> the only thing I blame is the finite amount of resources, once I finish to build an industry chain the iron/copper reources are depleted...
10:51:23 <andythenorth> yeah that’s exactly what put me off it
10:51:54 <andythenorth> building the routes is quite fun
10:52:02 <andythenorth> but all the crafting and stuff, dunno
10:52:23 <andythenorth> also the UI for inventory / what’s in hand / weapons / loading machines
10:52:26 <andythenorth> is really really sucky
10:52:55 <andythenorth> off-topic: would cows prefer electric or steam trams?
10:53:26 <Wolf01> my worst impression is that once you learn how to place the industry chain, all your game will be the same, because you need to save time and avoid to deplete the resources by reasoning on how to place things
10:54:34 <andythenorth> openttd has that issue
10:54:42 <andythenorth> build ro-ro stations
10:54:53 <Wolf01> that the same on TT, but there is time-related, you finish to build a mainline and you need to upgrade it to concrete-sleepers-with-streamlined-catenary-poles-and-good-looking-stations because you fast forwarded of about 150 years
10:54:57 <andythenorth> but then newgrf, GS, multiplayer also
10:55:59 <Wolf01> but at least here you have something to do... once you deplete raw materials what will you do?
10:58:06 <andythenorth> maybe it’s the new Dwarf Fortress
10:58:14 * andythenorth has never played DF, because it would probably eat my life
10:58:30 <andythenorth> off-topic: can GS evict a player from their company?
10:58:35 <andythenorth> and if not, could we make it possible?
10:59:24 <andythenorth> I want the option to kick you out of your current company and make you start from scratch with a new one
10:59:30 <andythenorth> same game, same map, same point in time etc
10:59:53 <andythenorth> we don’t really have that facility in single player (leave company), but we do in MP?
10:59:56 <Alberth> clean out all possessions?
11:00:17 <andythenorth> dunno what happens to the previous company
11:00:26 <andythenorth> maybe it’s liquidated, or sold to an AI
11:00:51 <andythenorth> thinking of a 5-year plan, centrally planned economy
11:01:07 <andythenorth> “you failed your quota for steel, you have been sent to the salt mines"
11:01:29 <andythenorth> “fortunately, in the salt mines your talent for transportation does not go unnoticed, and you start a new network”
11:02:04 <Alberth> pause the game basically ends it afaik, like nogoal does at the end
11:12:43 <Pikka> V453000, as far as GPL etc goes I think I expressed myself reasonably clearly in the thread, is it still rolling along?
11:13:54 * andythenorth is disappointed that more important questions are not being answered
11:14:17 <Pikka> I didn't know cows was a question
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11:25:47 <andythenorth> we have tricycle trams?
11:27:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: you’d have to draw new tracks for me
11:27:07 * andythenorth has a tricycle truck
11:28:22 <Wolf01> yes, I know the only moving part were the motors
11:29:42 * andythenorth must to family day out
11:29:51 <Pikka> have fun andythenorth :)
11:29:59 <andythenorth> also sheep, electric or steam?
11:30:46 <Pikka> it depends if they're being dreamt of by androids, presumably
11:30:49 <Wolf01> the next step will be to make a c-130 trasforming to a Macross' koenig monster
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11:31:33 <planetmaker> Actually I find your response as to the sources of the planned set a bit... lacking. It's vague at least. And IMHO not quite fit for an open-source project
11:38:42 <planetmaker> I would have expected a clear license-statement along the lines of at least what V does with rawr (all sprites and code GPL licensed) instead of some talk about 'always did' and 'would give permission to someone if I were not around'
11:40:01 <planetmaker> Eddi and DigitalFox basically expressed my view on the matter
11:41:44 <Pikka> well, I've never called it an open-source project... or are you saying that non-GPL (New)GRFs aren't quite fit for OpenTTD?
11:42:36 <planetmaker> I don't say you did or you should. And they're ok. But they help OpenTTD much less than CC-BY or GPL
11:43:14 <planetmaker> Only the latter allow to bundle it with OpenTTD directly. Otherwise it's "yet another 3rd-party content". But nothing we could take and bundle and 'sell' as "this is OpenTTD"
11:44:00 <planetmaker> thus your license option bars the way to saying "OpenTTD has new default graphics". As for that, OpenTTD *does* have the license requirement eddi lined out
11:44:22 <planetmaker> which is "it has to build from source"
11:44:50 <Pikka> well then we get into the old mess of what is the "source" for graphics. If it's just the sprites, that's one thing. But plenty of people think it's not.
11:47:02 <Alberth> it's bundling perhaps? combining GPL with non-GPL is no-go, basically
11:48:24 <planetmaker> and both, V and Zeph found an answer to that very license question which works
11:48:38 <planetmaker> and both answers are much more satisfactorily than "ask me"
11:48:58 <peter1138> V's source textures are generally not open source, unless he's changed them./
11:49:11 <planetmaker> yes. He only licenses the sprites
11:49:26 <planetmaker> which is a bit of a grey area. But much better than nothing
11:50:10 <planetmaker> not sure about his models, tho
11:53:20 <planetmaker> Anyway, Alberth is right: my main concern is the bundling one which also Eddi expressed. Which limits options on licenses (a lot).
11:53:52 <planetmaker> Pikkas answer amounts to "yes, there is one, but we cannot ship it everywhere with OpenTTD"
11:54:12 <planetmaker> as 'everywhere' implies also in debian which means 'must build from source'
11:56:57 <Pikka> I've certainly never proposed Pineapple Graphics be distributed other than via Bananas in the normal way... so I don't see the problem there. On the other hand...
11:57:02 <peter1138> Is bundling it with OpenTTD an intention?
11:57:09 <Pikka> not my intention peter1138
11:57:49 <planetmaker> peter1138, it would be a condition-sine-qua-non for my support.
11:58:27 <planetmaker> and that's all I wanted to say. If pikka is sold on not doing that - his choice. Not my beer
12:00:08 <peter1138> Hmm, actually it's a bit early.l
12:00:19 <Pikka> planetmaker, if V's solution is satisfactory
12:01:00 <Pikka> ie only licencing the sprites...
12:01:41 <Pikka> then I'd be happy to donate the finished base set and its sprites to the OpenTTD team to release under the GPL
12:02:14 <Pikka> in the same way as I gave the av8 sprites to WAS. I'm just not sure it's satisfactory to *me*, which is why I won't release it as GPL myself.
12:13:32 <Alberth> it doesn't make any sense to me
12:15:20 <Pikka> I don't think a licence which requires sources is a sensible one for artwork, but if planetmaker/OpenTTD wants to take the pineapple base set and publish it under the GPL (and to consider the sprites alone as source) he's welcome to.
12:15:25 <planetmaker> in my understanding only the textures are not OSS with V's project
12:18:18 <Alberth> Pikka: that's how I understood your gesture, which is great in itself. I am however very much puzzled why you cannot do that
12:18:40 <Alberth> but if you don't want to answer that, it's fine
12:20:09 <Pikka> because if someone wants "the source", I don't want to be responsible for providing it... call it laziness, perhaps. ;)
12:26:04 <michi_cc> GPL defined the source as "the preferred form of the work for making modifications". For rendered 3D sprites, this does imply somewhat that the models are the source, not the rendered image. After all, if you want to add a window to a train model, you'd usually modify the model and re-render, instead of manually editing all the different rendered views and zooms.
12:28:57 <V453000> I find opensourcing models a huge mess, but with the sprites+code like we always did, it is fine
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12:53:33 <V453000> yeah I use CC-BY-SA for my projects
12:54:03 <V453000> the problem that 99% people will have is that 3D models is a thing they can work with in other projects, at work, sell them, do things with them
12:54:30 <V453000> putting them somewhere in a free environment does not feel good with those.
12:55:03 <V453000> I am all fine with CC sprites, code, and even my postproduction pipeline, adding technical documentation and explanation to show people how to do something similar
12:55:34 <V453000> I might even share the rendering files which just put things together and render them
12:55:44 <V453000> but I feel very unsure about sharing the actual 3D models
12:56:55 <V453000> of course when textures are not open-source friendly, that is another thing
12:57:20 <planetmaker> well, yes. But that's two things. So... you feel bad about sharing models because others are a bitch with that, too?
12:57:58 <V453000> I am just saying that I think that my stand point is not too different to other 3D artists
12:59:09 <planetmaker> sorry, then I don't understand :) So you do as long as separating texture and models is easy?
12:59:35 <planetmaker> (just trying to understand, not judging)
13:00:20 <V453000> textures and models are separate already, cant split those two things really any further :P it always will be 2 different files. Anyway, my point is that a 3D model (textured or not), is something that their authors might use in the future in commercial projects
13:00:30 <V453000> and/or sell them on 3D model markets
13:00:43 <planetmaker> yes, of course. But that is true with *everything*
13:00:55 <planetmaker> it's also true with the soruce code we write. Or with sprites
13:01:13 <V453000> yeah but nobody will buy your sprites, while many people might buy a model of a truck/house/factory/...
13:02:51 <V453000> like, from my point of view - I am learning 3D graphics, and the newGRFs are a side-effect of that. I am glad to share those outputs, while creating my own library of models at the same time
13:03:06 <michi_cc> V453000: The whole point of open source is to allow other people to work and do things with it in other projects, provided they comply with the attached terms.
13:03:35 <V453000> ie someone can use my sprites and code them to do something functionally interesting
13:03:51 <planetmaker> also it doesn't mean you as author loose any rights to use them
13:04:20 <V453000> no but it makes no sense to sell such things at that point
13:04:41 <planetmaker> those people you sell to first have to know :)
13:04:46 <planetmaker> thus you can still sell it
13:05:54 <peter1138> sure it does, you can sell it with a different license (assuming sole authorship)
13:06:34 <planetmaker> and that actually usually works very well. People who buy stuff don't want GPL stuff. And vice versa :)
13:06:49 <V453000> it is just, I see a solution from all ends, like that. But it is all the unconveniences from all ends that make me not want to do it.
13:07:16 <michi_cc> It does. There are e.g. a lot of photos that are available either under a more restrictive free license or classically commercial for those companies that can't or won't comply with the license terms.
13:07:32 <V453000> filesize to upload would just get through the roof, my local folder for graphics has close to 200GB, the textures and renders are just about 10 GB out of that.
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13:08:08 <V453000> yeah guys, idk if it is that you live in a more civilized part of the world, but in here licenses arent really care about much
13:08:17 <V453000> I guess my feeling of insecurity comes from that a lot
13:09:16 <michi_cc> And if you are worried about piracy, how is it any different to person 1 buying it and then making a torrent out of it? The availability or non-availability of an open source license doesn't change that one bit.
13:10:15 <V453000> nah I dont think it is that, I think I am just a jerk about letting people reuse these things I did to this extent
13:11:12 <Pikka> I think, from my point of view, it's slightly different if I were creating an open-source project which actually used the models
13:11:22 <V453000> + top class argument that you need $8000 software to even open the files correctly :P
13:12:34 <Pikka> but publically giving away models (apart from the templates and examples which are intended to be given away) in the name of sourcing tiny sprites seems a little over the top. :)
13:13:37 <planetmaker> Pikka, but it's catch 22. Without models we can never change :)
13:14:39 <Pikka> you can change the sprites easily enough. not that the sprites are likely to require changing, only potentially adding to.
13:14:52 <planetmaker> no, I mean change OpenTTD to use models directly :)
13:15:20 <V453000> it could be boxes to start with, I think you would be surprised how quickly would people fill it up :)
13:16:41 <V453000> since when does quality come into terms in opensource
13:17:14 <V453000> and with separate models it is easy to just replace things
13:17:32 <V453000> having to sprite things means they need to fit more in rendering settings etc
13:17:50 <Alberth> so far, 0 people have fixed anything in zbase
13:17:55 <planetmaker> with models available it's easy to make better models and sprites. So that argument cuts already now
13:18:05 <Alberth> including stupid stuff like offsets
13:18:58 <V453000> so what are you saying, that with a good-quality source someone would do anything to fix it?
13:19:04 <Alberth> so technically, it's easy to change, it just never happens :p
13:19:15 <V453000> so far it feels like zbase doesnt actually need to be open source either then
13:19:19 <Pikka> <Alberth> so far, 0 people have fixed anything in zbase
13:19:19 <Pikka> <planetmaker> with models available it's easy to make better models and sprites <- these seem to be contradictory statements
13:19:48 <V453000> everybody is digging in their own sandbox anyway
13:20:06 <V453000> I do something, Pikka does something a bit different, chinese dudes do something a bit different
13:20:10 <planetmaker> there's one guy who shared his sandbox: zeph. No other one
13:20:19 <V453000> sure, and who used his sandbox?
13:21:14 <Pikka> Zeph also went out of his way to have a well-ordered sandbox
13:22:07 <Pikka> I haven't, and would rather not have to dump 20gb of miscellaneous doodlings on anyone who asks for it.
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13:23:29 <Pikka> and I didn't see what V said above along the same lines until just now :P
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13:26:17 <planetmaker> 3D models are not easily exchanged between different programmes. And knowledge with those programmes is much rarer than pixel pushing. Thus the likelyhood that someone with the skills in those textures comes along is smaller than with sprites. But it doesn't make it less valuable to have them
13:26:47 <V453000> actually most program accept .obj just fine
13:26:50 <planetmaker> on the contrary. The whole work will decay, if the 3d artist is gone and along with him all his models - except if he put them under an open license
13:27:06 <planetmaker> thus any project is a dead birth if the models are not freely available
13:29:26 <planetmaker> probably pikka is the contributor in this channel with the longest record of contributions
13:29:35 <planetmaker> and that's extremely rare
13:31:05 <V453000> how is that related? :d
13:32:09 <planetmaker> thus for any continuity in the project OpenTTD as a whole, in order to evolve, it's essential that the stuff it relies on is open source. And that includes the models for the game content if you are interested in this game to stay around and keep up with technical development
13:32:34 <planetmaker> otherwise it has to be re-invented over and over and the game is bound to die - for the reason that it can't continue development on the graphical front
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13:33:42 <planetmaker> if you don't like the results 32bpp models used for graphics in OpenTTD - then why bother with it at all? If you do: why not make sure they stay and can evolve?
13:35:14 <planetmaker> that's basically what I wonder always, looking at the global perspective of this game :)
13:37:14 <V453000> I guess because we are not thinking of leaving anytime soon :)
13:39:41 <V453000> I know, we can get ran over by a bus
13:40:20 <V453000> but especially seeing how poor quality comes out of "the community", I guess we just do not want our efforts to be "improved" to that picture "the community" would love to make it to be
13:40:26 <frosch123> it's like becoming an organ donator :p
13:41:07 <V453000> I am not sure if I want to hear that explanation frosch123 XD
13:41:11 <frosch123> why donate your lungs to a fucking smoker?
13:41:38 <frosch123> oh wait, not only smokers need new lungs?
13:43:43 <V453000> call me dumb but idk what do you mean by that
13:43:53 <frosch123> V453000: people have problems dealing with their after-life, like setting up being an organ donator, or making a statement about comatose treatment, or setting up a testament
13:44:02 <frosch123> i am amazed how you are able to extent that to graphics
13:44:48 <V453000> well then I will write in my testament that all of my intellectual property goes to CC BY SA starting the day of my death? :P
13:45:11 <frosch123> see, there is a fs task
13:45:15 <frosch123> it's about cargodist
13:45:22 <frosch123> it's very easy to figure what is wrong
13:45:26 <frosch123> just i do not know what is right
13:45:32 <frosch123> i tried to ask fonsinchen
13:45:42 <frosch123> but fonsinchen has not been around since christmast
13:45:53 <frosch123> so, i cannot even get a simple yes/no answer
13:46:23 <frosch123> same goes with graphics
13:46:33 <frosch123> you want to make a grf compatible with grfv9 and ottd 2.0
13:46:36 <V453000> well losing a knowledgeable person is something different from losing some data
13:46:47 <frosch123> but if you have to spent 2 months hunting down the author
13:47:02 <frosch123> who became a millionaire and moved to the caribbiean
13:47:10 <frosch123> it's just not worth it
13:48:04 <frosch123> in the case of the baseset it is even more important
13:48:15 <frosch123> you have to update the baseset with every new version of ottd
13:48:21 <frosch123> becuse someone adds a silly gui sprite
13:48:33 <frosch123> last time i did that for zbase, even though i do not even like zbase
13:48:46 <Pikka> and you need sources for every model and texture to add a silly gui sprite? ;)
13:48:51 <frosch123> stuff like nightgfx otoh, is dead by now
13:49:09 <frosch123> Pikka: no, i just need a fucking statement that says something
13:49:22 <frosch123> i do not need a statement, "ask me, if you can find me"
13:49:22 <planetmaker> Pikka, the next necessary addition could not be a gui sprite, but for instance improved tunnel portals
13:49:44 <Pikka> my railway tracks are hand-drawn
13:49:45 <frosch123> it does not need to be open source, it just needs to state what is allowed, and what not
13:49:50 <Pikka> my tunnel portals might very well be also :)
13:49:53 <frosch123> bsd license or cc-by or whatever, all is fine
13:49:58 <planetmaker> and then what, Pikka ?the tunnels, too? Or a new station type?
13:50:16 <planetmaker> and 'might be' is just you avoiding an answer.
13:50:34 <Pikka> I haven't done them yet, so I don't know
13:50:35 <planetmaker> a base set can be in need of any type of sprite added
13:50:47 <planetmaker> hourse, vehicle, terrain, gui, whatever
13:51:29 <peter1138> gosh, frosch123 swore
13:51:56 <peter1138> can't do, real is banned
13:52:26 <Pikka> anyway, frosch123, I've made that statement... "I'd be happy to donate the finished base set and its sprites to the OpenTTD team to release under the GPL".
13:52:36 <peter1138> basically, unless it is actually open source, don't bother treating it as potentially open source in the future
13:52:56 <frosch123> there was no such statement, yesterday, was there?
13:52:56 <Pikka> the only question is whether that's acceptable, and it seems to planetmaker it isn't :)
13:53:29 <Pikka> no, but there was earlier in this conversation. yesterday I wasn't contemplating the possibility of my base set becoming part of openttd, so it hadn't crossed my mind
13:53:54 <frosch123> none of the basesets is part of ottd, i did not read the conversation, no idea :)
13:54:10 <planetmaker> I'm no lawyer, no do I know how debian would treat it. And I know that it's grey area to open-source only sprites and not models
13:54:43 <planetmaker> all I wanted to convey (and how it started): no open source for a base set means no personal support from me
13:54:50 <frosch123> i only read the kickstarter page, and i do not remember anythnig about how it will be licenced
13:55:23 <frosch123> thus i assume it is the default license "no support, if author leaves"
13:55:42 <frosch123> which is no problem for most grfs, but troublesome for a baseset
13:56:22 <planetmaker> and frosch has the much better parabole story than I did :)
13:58:08 <V453000> I need to ask andythenorth if openttd is dying yet
13:58:30 <Pikka> I see now how that could be an issue. A written offer to the OpenTTD team to release under [any licence] seems like it should solve it, though?
13:59:30 <planetmaker> please make the offer to anyone who wants
13:59:57 <planetmaker> thus license it properly in the first place
14:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i'm fairly convinced that GPL is not the license for you. CC-BY(-SA) is probably more suited to what you want to offer
14:01:58 <V453000> ever since people started being uneasy at me about providing full source, I will never use GPL ever again
14:02:15 <Pikka> probably cc-0 for the base set, Eddi.
14:02:27 <Pikka> or something along those lines
14:02:46 <frosch123> V453000: even factorio now banned mods without licence :)
14:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to go that far, but if you want to, go ahead.
14:03:35 <planetmaker> V453000, err, what?
14:04:17 <V453000> idk who pm but I remember some cute conversation about my projects not including 3D models and GPL requiring that
14:04:48 <peter1138> open source usually means ALL the source, yes.
14:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes, GPL means include all the models and all the textures. there is no way around that
14:05:33 <peter1138> don't want to do that, don't pretend to be open source
14:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want to do that, don't use GPL
14:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's that simple
14:06:10 <peter1138> i didn't write any of openttd expecting to be able to keep a bit of it for myself
14:06:19 <V453000> well, if I spend my free time with a hobby, I share as much as I feel comfortable with sharing, and if any idiot comes up and starts being agressive about not sharing enough, it cant end up well
14:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody is aggressive about not sharing enough
14:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> just when you don't want to share everything, don't use GPL
14:07:39 <V453000> sure, that is what I do now
14:07:42 <peter1138> which is what he decided on
14:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine, really
14:08:03 <Pikka> So does cc-0 for the base set sound like a reasonable compromise to everyone, or anyone? :)
14:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> now get Pikka to the point where he decides something
14:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> any decision is better than hanging in this limbo
14:09:00 <Pikka> or cc-by-sa, I suppose.
14:09:30 <Pikka> more for the benefit of potential users outside OpenTTD.
14:09:58 <planetmaker> that makes no sense :)
14:10:38 <Pikka> I mean, I'm not bothered by what people do with my OpenTTD graphics within OpenTTD, but I guess it would be nice to know if someone's using them outside. Not that it's likely.
14:11:06 <planetmaker> how does CC-BY-SA help there more than CC-0?
14:11:58 <Pikka> I don't know. I've no means of enforcing a licence and no-one obeys CC licences properly anyway.
14:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i would feel uncomfortable providing a project as big as this with CC-0. the least i'd want is my name on it
14:12:31 <Pikka> but anyway, would a CC licence resolve the issues you have with the base set, planetmaker?
14:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> just don't put -NC or -ND on it
14:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be a bit of trouble putting CC-BY-SA graphics into a GPL newgrf, but maybe just stating different licenses for graphics and code will resolve that
14:16:24 <Pikka> we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
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16:12:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: carrots? o_O
16:13:18 <andythenorth> V453000: it’s already dead
16:15:44 <andythenorth> Squid Ate FISH does *not* include the 3D sources
16:15:57 <andythenorth> and anyone who thinks that violates GPL, we can work it out in court
16:16:00 <andythenorth> with lawyers and stuff
16:17:01 <andythenorth> and there’s no point playing armchair lawyer about it
16:17:08 <andythenorth> because there’s no obvious case law
16:17:33 <andythenorth> and it’s known that GPL is not optimal for assets like artwork and documentation
16:17:50 <frosch123> V453000: who did actually request 3d models?
16:18:05 <V453000> I would love to remember but I dont frosch123 , sorry
16:19:08 <frosch123> don't read forums then :p
16:19:21 <V453000> what is on forums? :D
16:19:38 <frosch123> no, just generally :)
16:20:17 <frosch123> maybe irc is worse? :p
16:24:34 <andythenorth> could definitely waste a day playing armchair lawyer
16:25:19 <frosch123> have you tried being a backseat lawyer?
16:25:48 <andythenorth> my real lawyers hate it
16:25:59 <andythenorth> and it costs me extra for wasting their time
16:26:25 <frosch123> btw. next time you have trouble with vehicle stats
16:27:06 <frosch123> you can start a kickstarter and offer giving stats to vehicles a pledge
16:27:20 <andythenorth> can we start a kickstarter for every problem?
16:27:35 <frosch123> is there a minimum goal?
16:27:59 <frosch123> can you ask for good wishes instead of money?
16:28:51 <andythenorth> eh, I have a challenge-solving app :P
16:29:24 <andythenorth> electric pigs, or steam?
16:33:21 <frosch123> hmm, kickstarter only works with credit card?
16:33:30 <frosch123> i do not have one :o
16:33:47 <frosch123> i live in continental europe, i do not use credit cards
16:33:49 <andythenorth> is it Germany where no-one has credit cards?
16:33:51 <andythenorth> there’s some country
16:34:16 <frosch123> i am used to send money with < 1% fees
16:34:24 <frosch123> all accross the continent
16:34:33 <andythenorth> probably all kinds of problems with paypal and such
16:34:46 <andythenorth> they have a habit of keeping funds for up to a year
16:35:26 <andythenorth> wouldn’t work for kickstarter :)
16:36:36 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Depends on what you consider a credit card. If you think of an US-style revolving credit card, you'll be hard pressed to find a German with one. Credit card branded debit cards are used in Germany, but definitely not to the extend of many other countries.
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16:38:57 * andythenorth wonders if steam engines would frighten the livestock
16:39:58 <frosch123> do tunnels frighten livestock?
16:40:07 <andythenorth> dunno, haven’t got any livestock :)
16:40:16 <andythenorth> tunnels frighten children
16:46:26 <frosch123> i only drove a battery powered mining railway engine
16:46:37 <frosch123> the rest was diesel
16:50:23 <andythenorth> clearly you liked it :P
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17:33:37 * andythenorth does a steam tram
17:33:54 <andythenorth> fascinating news
17:34:08 <Wolf01> yay, finally made the cell phone in terraria \o/
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20:00:09 <andythenorth> is there any reason
20:00:25 <andythenorth> why RVs couldn’t just drive through vehicles in front, rather than needing to overtake?
20:07:34 <andythenorth> can’t remember :)
20:08:03 <Wolf01> in TTD vehicles piled up in front of the drive-in roas stops
20:08:25 <Wolf01> infinite vehicles in one tile :D
20:09:08 <Wolf01> then queuing (with quantum effects) happened
20:09:58 <Alberth> andythenorth: those RVs are called 'ships'
20:10:27 <andythenorth> that’s where I got the idea :P
20:10:40 <andythenorth> that and Eddi’s comment that overtaking is a Hard Problem
20:12:34 <Sylf> so, we can build canal graphics that look like roads, and ships that look like RVs?
20:12:53 <Sylf> the only issue is the docks looking like RV stations :P
20:13:43 <Sylf> and how to force buildings to build around canals
20:15:27 <Wolf01> just go to venice and give a look
20:18:55 <Sylf> or many other cities around the world as the sea level rise :P
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20:42:56 <V453000> HOLY SHIT SYLF WHAT AN IDEA
20:43:58 <V453000> world will never be the same now
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20:45:02 <V453000> nah I am just downscaling everything in the game at the moment :P
20:45:10 <V453000> smaller trees = no need to X all the time
20:45:20 <V453000> smaller buildings = nicer towns, space around buildings
20:45:43 <V453000> smaller vehicles = more reasonable scale
20:45:55 <V453000> the plan of DOOM was to make shit ultra huge
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20:46:05 <V453000> but the "right" solution currently seems to be to make everything smaller
20:46:51 <V453000> with the x4 zoom available from 3D renders, you can still make it bigger
20:47:02 <V453000> but x1 remains best for buildings
20:47:17 <frosch> longer vehicles by making everything else smaller? :p
20:47:42 <V453000> well vehicles do keep length only, not width or height
20:47:58 <frosch> so they fit under bridges
20:48:10 <frosch> and you can have big cargo piles between platforms
20:48:21 <V453000> but the biggest wtf is the thing Pikka defines as "chibby" - everything is too short, fat and weird ass
20:49:10 <V453000> honestly, as a 3D person the initial idea is "render it as large as you fucking can, you spent a lot of time doing the models, might as well make the most out of it for the game"
20:49:17 <V453000> but ultimately, the game needs downscaling
20:49:23 <V453000> with zoom levels available, it is no issue
20:49:31 <V453000> of course as long as x1 looks good
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21:01:49 <andythenorth> Road Hog now 72 vehicles
21:01:57 <andythenorth> do I get the high score?
21:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> why RVs couldn’t just drive through vehicles in front, rather than needing to overtake? <-- it would make RVs really boring, i think
21:07:18 <andythenorth> compared to having all vehicles in a generation have same speed?
21:07:32 <andythenorth> which is where Road Hog will end up, for articulated vehicles at least
21:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i see no problem with that
21:07:56 <andythenorth> there is no purpose to having some articulated RVs be higher speed than others
21:08:05 <andythenorth> maybe that’s a non-problem
21:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but part of the "interestingness" of RVs comes from cities becoming too crowded to handle the traffic
21:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that just goes away and you can spam as many RVs as you want, and they just pile up at the station as zero-space vehicles
21:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no traffic jams to fiddle around with (and get annoyed by the game not providing tools for load balancing)
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21:51:40 * Supercheese debates donating to Pineapple graphics
21:54:07 * andythenorth didn’t debate it
21:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what i'm trying to say is: make road vehicles more like trains wrt options and fiddling, and not dumb them down to the level of ships
21:59:05 <andythenorth> I agree, but do you have any specific ideas? o-O
22:00:38 <frosch> choose the specs so that speed does not matter as much?
22:01:14 <frosch> just make them all slow :)
22:01:37 <frosch> make all vehicles of the same generation the same speed
22:02:54 <andythenorth> except the express trucks, which can overtake
22:03:49 <andythenorth> FWIW (not much probably), designing the tram part of Road Hog is a shitload easier than the proper RVs
22:04:06 <andythenorth> especially now I abandoned the idea that trams progress to RVs
22:04:23 <andythenorth> no need to consider overtaking or roadstop type
22:06:06 <andythenorth> all the possible choices for proper RVs are flawed, so the design is now based on ‘what sprites exist already’ :P
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