IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-18
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00:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that is
00:00:21 <frosch123> hmm, laserjet 4 is too new, maybe laserjet 2
00:00:23 <Eddi|zuHause> wingdings was fun to play with for about 10 minutes
00:00:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: comic sans, but oldschool
00:00:55 <frosch123> those were postscript fonts built into the printer
00:01:02 <frosch123> you could actually not display them on screen
00:01:28 <frosch123> dos word 5 supported them, textmode on screen, fancy bold hand writing when printing
00:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i recently read an article that talked about how comic sans was a perfectly acceptable font, and when it became "the most evil thing ever invented" it was already on decline
00:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, dos wordperfect had a mode where you could display a graphical version of the page, showing the layout and fonts and stuff
00:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but you couldn't edit in that mode, that WYSIWYG stuff was a buzzword for windows
00:03:38 <frosch123> i think dos word also had a graphical preview, but it did not know the printer fonts :p
00:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, in wordperfect, you could select a printer driver, and then it would change the selection of fonts available
00:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if it knew all the fonts of all the printers ever invented
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07:18:44 <andythenorth> you haz started a kicker
07:20:37 <Alberth> I hope he already knows :)
07:21:32 <andythenorth> pictures and everything
07:27:24 <andythenorth> Alberth: sometimes you are getting up very early it seems
07:27:29 <andythenorth> even earlier than me :o
07:29:06 <Alberth> yeah, trying another day-rythm, get up around 6 am
07:29:43 <Alberth> which is easy I am awake at that time already :)
07:33:31 <andythenorth> my children are experimenting with 4.50 am
07:33:34 <andythenorth> maybe it’s a life hack
07:37:38 <Alberth> I did manage a bit after 5, but not before it, so far :)
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07:45:14 <andythenorth> factorio seems quite addictive
07:45:18 <andythenorth> even though it’s quite ugly
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08:15:04 * andythenorth got bored of factorio
08:15:08 <andythenorth> such low attention span :P
08:17:36 <andythenorth> and it’s not pretty
08:20:32 <andythenorth> Alberth: btw, you missed an opportunity to propose feature removals :)
08:41:25 <Alberth> :o I hope you filled in for me :)
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09:45:36 * andythenorth wonders about hiding drive-in roadstops in the UI
09:46:09 <andythenorth> probably something related to ShowRVStationPicker
09:49:16 <andythenorth> I’ve disabled the widgets :)
09:49:27 <andythenorth> did it in a silly way though
09:49:54 <andythenorth> I’ve replaced ‘_cur_roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM’ in some if statements with ‘true’ :P
09:53:01 * andythenorth proposes to move ‘enable drive-in roadstops’ to a cfg file setting
09:53:06 <andythenorth> and then remove it in future :P
09:57:34 <Wolf01> you mean "drive trough"?
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10:07:12 <Wolf01> having 6 sealed lego sets and no space to put them after they are built is a struggle :(
10:11:02 <Wolf01> where is that setting now? I only have the drive-through one, and just the ownership limitations for it
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10:25:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01: the setting doesn’t exist yet :)
10:25:15 * andythenorth proposes adding it, and hiding it away in .cfg :P
10:25:20 <andythenorth> then turning off drive-in stops
10:25:32 <andythenorth> it’s an example of a boring choice
10:25:51 <andythenorth> drive-in stops have absolutely no benefit
10:26:12 <andythenorth> they don’t permit articulated vehicles, and allegedly they perform worse than drive-through
10:26:21 <Wolf01> I still use them at the very beginning
10:26:26 <andythenorth> the only reason for them is ‘because TTD'
10:27:02 <andythenorth> they also enforce odd design choices on newgrfs
10:27:30 <andythenorth> a non-articulated vehicle model can never be superseded by an articulated model
10:52:02 <Alberth> wrong icon in the cursor :)
10:53:00 <andythenorth> patches are never simple :P
10:53:08 <andythenorth> I’d have to redraw that?
10:53:27 <andythenorth> we’d never remove these stops
10:53:37 <andythenorth> because two players might complain about it in forums
10:53:41 <andythenorth> as many as three even
10:53:53 <andythenorth> but /me can dream
10:57:04 <Alberth> tbh, I quite like them, they very easy to use
10:59:11 <andythenorth> compared to drive-through? o_O
10:59:50 <Alberth> with driver-through you need to make a circle
11:00:02 <andythenorth> because otherwise it looks ugly?
11:00:51 <andythenorth> the drive-in stops look much better
11:00:59 <andythenorth> and make neater stations
11:01:02 <Alberth> drive-in also has no problem with loaded vehicles getting blocked
11:01:14 <andythenorth> depends how many you have adjacent
11:01:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: you only use base set or ogfx RVs?
11:02:15 <Alberth> mostly baseset I think
11:02:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: your ‘articulated’ vehicles aren’t actually articulated?
11:02:49 <Alberth> can't usually be bothered to load a RV set
11:03:02 * andythenorth wonders if articulated vehicles are the problem
11:03:06 <andythenorth> maybe delete those
11:03:21 <Alberth> although your road hog is nice, with the trams
11:03:59 <andythenorth> maybe all trucks should be 1 unit, like original game
11:04:17 <andythenorth> that also solves overtaking
11:04:27 <Alberth> longer vehicles make more diversity, which is nice
11:05:13 <Alberth> but eg loaded vehicle blocked behind a loading vehicle should just try to overtake
11:05:21 <andythenorth> eventually they’ll wormhole
11:05:48 <Alberth> they do afaik, but you want to avoid that
11:06:09 <andythenorth> something is awry with current RVs
11:06:16 <andythenorth> it’s not ‘just the design, live with it’
11:06:22 <andythenorth> it’s fractured somehow
11:06:55 <andythenorth> designing an RV set is ridiculously hard
11:07:11 <Rubidium> andythenorth: regarding your question of yesterday; the removal "graphics" also includes reconsidering better scaling of vehicles and the likes
11:07:39 <andythenorth> lengths and so on?
11:07:40 <Rubidium> i.e. get rid of the lengthening/shortening in corners, bridges being lower than vehicles, ...
11:08:12 <Rubidium> and maybe even increase the "default" length
11:08:56 <Rubidium> plus probably some method to give a more 3D bounding box of the vehicle to prevent loads of glitches
11:09:31 <Rubidium> the latter would, in essence, make it possible to not care much about vehicle length at all. Just provide an appropriate bounding box
11:10:02 <andythenorth> no more crazy Iron Horse 3-part train wagons
11:25:04 <Pikka> my trucks aren't articulated, yes
11:25:13 <andythenorth> maybe that is the way forward
11:25:21 <Pikka> optional road trains with additional trailers will be
11:25:56 * andythenorth is finding that an RV set is quite rage-quity
11:26:07 <andythenorth> not surprising there is only one good one complete
11:27:19 <Rubidium> oh, andy... dropping all graphics and NewGRF also allows us to make all climates available on the same map
11:28:56 <Rubidium> yay for going from toyland to desert via arctic ;)
11:29:16 <Pikka> keeping it simple is definitely helping me, andy
11:31:53 <andythenorth> Pikka: no trams? o_O
11:32:44 <Pikka> at the moment only passenger trams planned though
11:32:45 <andythenorth> trams are appalling
11:33:05 <Pikka> people seem to like them, so I'll add them and not fret over them too much :)
11:33:34 <andythenorth> do all your truck models go the same speed?
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11:34:24 <Pikka> not quite, but I only have one of each truck type per generation, I don't have seperate fast/big/powerful/cheap/etc classes.
11:35:09 <andythenorth> but eh, yours aren’t articulated
11:35:15 <andythenorth> so you can set whatever speed you like
11:35:45 <andythenorth> with articulated, there is no point setting speeds differently on different models
11:36:24 <andythenorth> slowest vehicle sets the speed of all other vehicles
11:39:23 <Pikka> slight differences within generations, c.5mph.
11:40:16 <Pikka> trams and buses are the faster/slower outliers, coaches are about the same speed as trucks.
11:45:16 * andythenorth has about 10mph, some things are more express than others
11:45:27 <andythenorth> hmm also log trucks and dump trucks are much slower
11:45:41 <andythenorth> and that blocks everything else
11:46:01 <Pikka> overtaking definitely helps
11:46:38 <Pikka> also, as with the trains, most of my vehicles are underpowered and don't spend all of their time cruising at top speed, especially if it's hilly... which means power makes a bit of difference too.
11:48:07 <andythenorth> same for Road Hog
11:48:14 <andythenorth> only by accident :P
11:48:35 <andythenorth> capacity is double RL, but I didn’t double HP :P
11:56:54 <Pikka> seems to work reasonably well
12:10:12 <Pikka> 10-20 for flat/hopper/tanker/etc
12:11:01 <Pikka> plenty for low-production industries or short transfers, but not challenging trains for main-game status ;)
12:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the drive-in stations work better for pickup/transfer stations if you use "full load"
12:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> provided you use non-articulated trucks
12:17:03 <andythenorth> time for a Road Hog redesign
12:18:08 <andythenorth> and another redraw :(
12:23:18 <andythenorth> no road trains eh
12:24:42 <andythenorth> if it looks like an articulated truck, but doesn’t bend
12:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand what you mean
12:28:00 <andythenorth> do I have to draw new sprites, when I remove all the articulated trucks?
12:28:37 <andythenorth> the sprites look like RL articulated trucks, but will be a single unit in game
12:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is stupid, yes.
12:30:08 * andythenorth has designed Road Hog completely 100% wrong
12:30:13 <andythenorth> it’s embarassing :P
12:30:22 <andythenorth> the trams are single-unit, the trucks are articulated
12:31:56 <andythenorth> should be the other way round
12:32:48 <andythenorth> time to abandon it I think :D
12:32:58 <andythenorth> that’s two RV sets I’ve given up on
12:33:06 <andythenorth> Pikka: how many RV sets have you failed at? o_O
12:34:38 <Pikka> well this one's called HOVS 75, which is approximately how many iterations the design has been through :)
12:35:15 <peter1138> And everything will just use LV4 instead.
12:37:01 <andythenorth> the one with the nudey pictures in it?
12:46:26 <frosch123> for $360 you can get a complete custom trainset
12:46:56 <Pikka> nope... for $360 you can get a new base set, house, industry, and vehicle newgrfs.
12:47:06 <Pikka> the custom train set is a little bonus :)
12:47:24 <frosch123> well, i guess it is supposed to say custom train, not custom train set
12:47:45 <Pikka> "train set" as in locomotive and matching carriages
12:48:37 <frosch123> anyway, don't put sponsors on the newspaper screen :) otherwise we get conflicts when trashing that picture :p
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12:57:00 <andythenorth> how much does a decent RV set cost? o_O
12:57:22 <andythenorth> I have spent weeks on Road Hog, and I could freelance my time for £300 / day :P
12:57:30 <andythenorth> and give it to someone else
12:57:35 <andythenorth> to make newgrfs :P
12:57:39 <frosch123> limited to 32 vehicles
12:57:57 <andythenorth> that’s less than a month of work for me
12:58:06 * andythenorth can’t actually do freelance work, no time
12:59:10 <Pikka> andy: I suppose an xxxtreeme level backer reward could be negotiable. :P
12:59:40 <andythenorth> I could just wait for you to finish it
13:01:13 <Pikka> if pineapple rvs fits your requirements, sure. :)
13:01:33 <andythenorth> ‘requirements’ is a moot point with RVs
13:01:48 <andythenorth> at this point, ‘FIRS support’ and ‘works’ would be enough
13:01:57 <andythenorth> maybe OGFX+ RVs will do
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13:50:52 <Terkhen> it doesn't do anything fancy, but unless someone did crazy stuff with cargos it should still work :P
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14:48:44 <Pikka> goodnight all :) round me up some more kickstarter backers while I sleep!
15:24:01 <andythenorth> which is the best type of roadstop?
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15:24:41 <andythenorth> finally, a simple answer
15:25:07 <glevans2> hey, I am a simple person
15:25:24 <glevans2> one with free beer is better though
15:33:29 <andythenorth> is it just a meaningless question?
15:33:34 <andythenorth> are both roadstop types crippled?
15:40:12 <Alberth> for some value of 'crippled', yes
15:40:51 <Alberth> not sure if that's a problem though. If there is one without flaws, what's the use of the other ones?
15:44:43 <andythenorth> it makes set design hard :)
15:45:12 <andythenorth> I used articulated trucks in Road Hog on the basis that drive-through stops are preferable
15:45:28 <andythenorth> but that seems like a mistake, because drive-in stops are also preferable
15:47:01 <Alberth> any particular reason you want to have both?
15:47:31 <frosch123> rv are for short distance high capacity
15:47:37 <andythenorth> well, if trucks can only be single unit that changes the set design somewhat
15:47:42 <frosch123> so, something that allows quick enter, load, leave, looks like the main point
15:47:43 <andythenorth> no trailer trucks
15:47:48 <frosch123> so, drive-in are kind of useless
15:48:19 <frosch123> you should do it like pikka :)
15:48:30 <frosch123> make a good set, don't care about game limitations wrt. overtaking
15:48:42 <andythenorth> I could just wait for pikka
15:48:44 <frosch123> just like pikka does not care about length of vehicles on diagonals
15:50:12 <andythenorth> they’re 8/8 max afaict
15:50:19 <frosch123> yes, esp those with a long front part
15:50:40 <andythenorth> the ones longer than 8/8 would have to be changed
15:51:16 <frosch123> did you decide for rv capacity yet?
15:51:29 <andythenorth> 60-120t for trams
15:51:42 <andythenorth> 60t-120t for ‘off-highway’ RVs
15:51:50 <andythenorth> 20t for express vans
15:52:02 <andythenorth> play-tested multiple games, works
15:52:25 <andythenorth> (for trucks; trams are being changed now)
15:52:51 <andythenorth> is there any way to empirically prove which roadstop is best?
15:53:15 <frosch123> check how much cargo you can transfer from nidustry to rail station
15:53:20 <frosch123> with as little space as possible
15:53:25 <frosch123> (road station space)
15:53:55 <andythenorth> are the optimum road layouts known?
15:54:00 <andythenorth> to prevent blocking?
15:54:08 * andythenorth has no idea about this stuff
15:54:27 <frosch123> road approaches drive-through orthogonal do driving direction
15:54:27 * andythenorth looks in the wiki
15:54:42 <frosch123> and then can take equal-cost turns left or right to enter road stop from both sides
15:54:56 <andythenorth> if I play long enough, I’ll learn this stuff
15:54:59 <andythenorth> it’s only been 10 years
15:56:41 * andythenorth wonders if ‘not having to redraw the sprites, yet again’ is the best heuristic for the set design
15:57:11 <andythenorth> RVs are the absolute prime example of non-interesting choices
16:01:42 <frosch123> which gives maximum throughput
16:02:13 <frosch123> important is that the distance to both entry sides is the same
16:02:29 <frosch123> and that the roadstop does not immediately start after the junction, so rv are less likely to block the junction
16:02:56 <frosch123> it does not work for too many rows of roadstops though
16:03:08 <frosch123> else the ones in the front are always nearer than those at the rear
16:03:15 <frosch123> even with roadstop-in-use penalty
16:03:36 <andythenorth> is there an equivalent for drive-in stops?
16:03:57 <andythenorth> redrawing the sprites is unappealing
16:04:05 <frosch123> i don't think road layout makes any difference for drive-in
16:04:11 <frosch123> there is no choice about drive-in
16:04:17 <frosch123> rv can enter from one side only
16:04:22 <andythenorth> pikka is hedging by offering trucks with and without trailers :P
16:04:23 <frosch123> you cannot make them longer or similar
16:13:02 <andythenorth> they look better now
16:22:02 * andythenorth considered chibi trams, but too much redrawing
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16:38:17 <andythenorth> making ~symmetrical sprites is fun
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17:56:58 <andythenorth> teaching the 5 year old about the redraw regions :P
18:04:56 <andythenorth> is ‘repainted’ enough difference between old and new tram models?
18:05:10 <andythenorth> with 10mph speed difference and 50% HP boost?
18:05:18 <andythenorth> otherwise visually identical :P
18:09:42 <Alberth> if you don't have graphic variations of the same model, that should be sufficient, imho
18:11:00 * andythenorth trying to decide tram capacity
18:11:10 <andythenorth> has to be cleanly divisible by 2 and 3
18:11:26 <andythenorth> doesn’t really give trams any advantage over trucks though
18:11:37 <andythenorth> two 40t trucks fit in the same number of tiles and are much faster
18:11:53 * andythenorth wonders if 120t is too high
18:14:29 <Alberth> 90 96 102 108 114 120 to be precise
18:16:03 <andythenorth> where are the nice neat 5s or 10s :D
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18:21:07 <andythenorth> bit boringly round though
18:23:51 <frosch123> switch to imperial tons
18:25:13 <andythenorth> HEQS is quite ‘realistic’ on capacities
18:25:36 <andythenorth> but uses the imperial, long, or metric ton value from RL, according to how much capacity I wanted in game :P
18:26:15 <andythenorth> bit visually implausible
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18:59:52 <andythenorth> there is a standard gauge tram tracks grf
19:00:02 <andythenorth> I am not recommending it
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19:51:22 <Garfield222> I mean , when I create a town, I can only expand it. I grows and create different kinds of buildings. No I dea how to grow city and keep same buildings.
19:51:55 <Wolf01> patience, you need to demolish buildings you don't want and expand again
19:52:29 <Garfield222> :-O ............. noooooooooooo
19:54:16 <Wolf01> or use newobjects if you find a building set... but they don't count as real houses
19:55:27 <Garfield222> are the no cheats for this purpose ?
19:56:50 <Garfield222> with delete/expand method it will take ages :-)
20:17:24 <Alberth> improve town building in the scenario editor?
20:20:17 <Garfield222> what is "improve town building" ?
20:20:32 <Garfield222> scenario is without any newgrf
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20:35:44 <andythenorth> (this is impossible to constrain due to newgrf mix, but...)
20:36:30 <andythenorth> is it annoying or not when a bunch of new vehicle models (across all transport types) are made available within a small number of years
20:37:52 <andythenorth> with my sets, 1900-1910, 1930-1940, 1950-1960 seem to have a lot of model introductions
20:45:26 <Alberth> I typically click yes, and then don't care
20:45:44 <Alberth> tbh I'd like to have an "off" option
20:46:51 <andythenorth> for exclusive previews?
20:47:00 <andythenorth> or for all new vehicle models?
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21:27:53 <Alberth> exclusive preview cannot be disabled, new model news is off-ish
21:28:17 <Alberth> ie when I need a new engine, or need a renew, I'll have a look :)
21:34:16 <andythenorth> so you don’t feel compelled to go replacing vehicles when a new one is released
21:41:49 <Alberth> no, also not because reliability of new vehicle is too low
21:47:15 * andythenorth had forgotten about breakdowns :)
21:47:43 <andythenorth> perhaps I should set reliability values to something
21:47:49 <andythenorth> nobody complains :P
21:49:40 <Alberth> otherwise you get whatever vehicle you copied from, I guess :)
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