IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-17
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09:22:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, are you going to reply to every suggestion that it's pointless and no work done anyway? I do think that it's neither helpful nor exactly true but subject to observation bias
09:23:16 <andythenorth> I did wonder if we should ask for the suggestions forum to be locked
09:23:26 <andythenorth> but then they’d just show up in general OpenTTD forum
09:23:48 <andythenorth> suggestions are inevitable
09:23:59 <planetmaker> yes. And they're good to have
09:24:09 <planetmaker> It's good if there are many more than possible to implement
09:25:09 <andythenorth> I dunno, something feels disingenuous to me about it
09:25:15 <andythenorth> maybe that’s irrational
09:25:41 <planetmaker> yes, maybe. But don't de-value the contributions. Especially in the suggestions forum it's ok to get creative
09:25:41 <andythenorth> encouraging suggestions that will never be acted upon seems a bit morally dubious
09:25:58 <planetmaker> Answers in the order of 'stop suggestions' are not helpful there
09:25:58 <andythenorth> I wondered about pinning a topic
09:26:19 <andythenorth> explain maybe that suggestions are welcome, but that OpenTTD feature development is mostly ceased
09:26:28 <planetmaker> that's neither true
09:27:07 <planetmaker> why do you put an effort in actively killing the project?
09:27:25 <andythenorth> nah it’s already dead :)
09:27:33 <andythenorth> it’s done, it works
09:27:45 <andythenorth> most developers left because the work is done
09:27:48 <planetmaker> if it dies due to dwindling contributions... ok. But telling people "no, we won't do anything", that's stupid
09:28:25 <andythenorth> I am not strongly disagreeing, but I don’t see what we lose by that?
09:28:53 <planetmaker> we loose any hope. And any future which we might have for the project when we bury it before it's dead
09:29:13 <planetmaker> so please, bury your openttd future. But let others keep it alive if they wish
09:29:32 <planetmaker> don't bury it for others, too
09:31:28 <planetmaker> I really don't see a point in starting a vicious cycle
09:31:43 <planetmaker> or spinning it more than it does. whatever
09:33:52 <andythenorth> I see it differently :)
09:34:37 <andythenorth> I think OpenTTD has won
09:34:46 <andythenorth> I don’t see any loss of hope :)
09:34:54 <planetmaker> well, what's the benefit of calling it done and telling everyone "no point in contributing"?
09:35:02 <planetmaker> It cannot have any positive influence, can it?
09:35:51 <planetmaker> maybe I just don't get it. But please tell me what you want to achieve by that
09:35:55 <andythenorth> moves the burden of responsibility
09:36:15 <planetmaker> No-one has a responsibility. We all do stuff voluntarily
09:36:22 <andythenorth> I’ve seen other projects do this, where most of the core contributors had left
09:36:35 <andythenorth> I don’t know whether it succeeded though
09:36:48 <planetmaker> can you point me to some?
09:36:51 <andythenorth> this = be upfront that there is no more active development
09:39:42 <andythenorth> Plone, similarly to OpenTTD was one of the best open source projects in its area of application
09:40:17 <andythenorth> although tbh, unlike OpenTTD, it’s turned out to be mostly just wrong
09:40:41 <andythenorth> and unlike OpenTTD, it’s bleeding developers to much better projects
09:41:33 <andythenorth> interestingly, a project also largely driven by northern europeans, especially Germans and Dutch and so on, similar to OpenTTD
09:42:48 <planetmaker> to me (4) doesn't read at all like that attitude
09:43:16 <planetmaker> he just says "we're moving along but with different people"
09:43:36 <andythenorth> yeah, there’s a lot more involved
09:43:54 <andythenorth> couple of people who work with me were involved in the Plone Foundation that looks after the project
09:44:03 <andythenorth> lots of politics for a long time
09:45:28 <andythenorth> ugh, so many Plone articles on google, can’t find what I’m looking for :P
09:46:32 <andythenorth> I dunno, it’s probably a bad example
09:46:39 <andythenorth> Plone mostly sucks, OpenTTD doesn't
09:47:48 <andythenorth> I’ve played it intensively recently
09:49:32 <JezK> or is there another plone?
09:50:04 <JezK> ahh, i was thinking you were talking about another openttd style game called plone =p
09:50:32 <andythenorth> not the ambient music producer on Warp records, for which Plone is named
09:51:53 * andythenorth wonders if there are other OpenTTDs :P
09:54:38 <andythenorth> eh, I really don’t think the current state of trunk dev is a problem
09:54:48 <andythenorth> there are nearly 70 fixes committed since start of 2015
09:54:53 <andythenorth> mostly by frosch
09:54:57 <andythenorth> that’s a lot of fixes
09:55:27 <andythenorth> most of the rest of the commits are translator
09:56:06 <andythenorth> couple of features, both small but important
09:58:19 <planetmaker> yes, frosch is the true workhorse nowadays
09:58:30 <andythenorth> maybe it just needs articulating more positively
09:58:34 <planetmaker> we should recruit afd88 ;)
09:58:42 <andythenorth> I stand by the factual truth of what I saud
09:59:12 <planetmaker> what factual truth? That we only fix and add translations? That's not a truth, I think
09:59:20 <planetmaker> that we got less and less commits? sure
09:59:36 <andythenorth> timeframe probably matters
09:59:37 <planetmaker> but imho you mostly stated an attitude. And I'm not sure many share that
09:59:43 <andythenorth> MHL and cdist are big changes
09:59:58 <andythenorth> whether they’re successful is another matter
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10:19:08 <andythenorth> eh planetmaker thanks, you’ve caused me to work out what is actually bothering me
10:30:28 <planetmaker> so, what is it actually, andythenorth ?
10:31:04 <andythenorth> three things, only one is important
10:32:01 <andythenorth> frosch can speak for himself, but he’s the main committer this year, and I worry he’ll end up rage quitting, or just getting bored
10:32:19 <andythenorth> when you’re the only person really working on a big project, the fun goes
10:32:38 <andythenorth> and when there is a constant stream of demands and requests it is annoying
10:33:18 <andythenorth> and when some of the things committed (to get just any new features in) turn out to be failed, or you’re unpicking other people’s mistakes
10:33:24 <andythenorth> then that is a recipe for rage quit
10:33:52 <andythenorth> e.g. the stuff to get MHL in
10:35:41 <andythenorth> second thing, although trunk OpenTTD is pretty static, GS, NewGRF, AI and web translations are all active
10:37:23 <planetmaker> ok. How does that bother you, though?
10:37:35 <andythenorth> nah, it’s a good thing actually
10:37:41 <planetmaker> sounds like cause for elation :) ah, ok
10:37:50 <andythenorth> I wonder if it should be emphasised
10:38:51 <andythenorth> third thing is collaboration
10:39:11 <andythenorth> FIRS and OpenGFX both caused a lot of things to advance, because they drew in lots of people
10:39:49 <planetmaker> they did, yes. And tbh, making extensions got a lot easier in the last 5 years or so
10:40:20 <andythenorth> eints was a collaboration
10:40:41 <andythenorth> ah that wasn’t the third thing :P
10:40:47 <andythenorth> third thing was :D
10:41:10 <andythenorth> far as I can tell, Nobody Who Makes the Game Has Played it in Ages
10:41:20 <andythenorth> I mean, it’s funny for a bit, but actually it’s a good game
10:41:24 <planetmaker> frosch plays regularily. Alberth, too
10:42:17 <andythenorth> sometimes it seems like irc chat is between people playing the game secondhand via forums :P
10:42:49 <andythenorth> Busy Bee was nearly a collaboration :(
10:42:56 <andythenorth> but I couldn’t learn Squirrel fast enough
10:47:04 <planetmaker> with reversed roles
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11:34:23 <newbie2> Hi. I would like to see the local authority rating points. I can see the rating (e.g. 'poor'), but I want to see the rating points (e.g. '-150'). I want to see the points to learn better how it works/changes. Is there a way to see the points?
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12:12:43 <planetmaker> newbie2, the rating do not have any more detailed interface. However there's a wiki page on those which explain the details
12:21:30 <newbie2> planetmaker: OK, so I don't need to click around more to try to find it. Thanks.
12:22:59 <newbie2> Also for the pointer to the wiki page.
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18:58:35 <Rubidium> isn't it still afternoon in BST?
18:59:00 <andythenorth> in the street outside my office, many people have started their evening
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19:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> after the noon is before the noon
19:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (vaguely based on a famous german football phrase)
19:45:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27336 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2015-07-17 19:45:14 +0200 )
19:45:24 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:25 <DorpsGek> greek - 36 changes by Jubilee
19:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> do english speakers ever use the phrase "beforenoon"?
19:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there exists the equivalent german phrase
19:47:05 <peter1138> no, that's just morning
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19:47:58 * peter1138 cracks out the cider
19:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, "beforenoon" would be the phase after you've properly woken up, and are capable of getting actual work done, and before the lunch break
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20:20:58 <andythenorth> peter1138: is it proper cider?
20:23:57 <peter1138> it's... store bought
20:25:47 * andythenorth buys westons in pubs
20:25:57 <andythenorth> but it’s a bit…clean
20:26:02 <andythenorth> and doesn’t glow in the dark
20:26:29 <peter1138> an essential attribute
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20:52:29 <andythenorth> _if_ there was a v2, and _if_ a v2 is a chance to break backwards compatibility
20:54:35 <planetmaker> base set backward compatibility
20:55:17 <planetmaker> removing newgrf ability to modify the base vehicles. Thus allow base sets to do what they want
20:55:38 <planetmaker> --> better out-of-box experience
20:56:23 <planetmaker> we would need to recruit andythenorth, Pokka and V to make us a new, nice one, though
20:56:35 <planetmaker> but I'm sure they'll manage
20:57:00 <frosch123> he, that's about the most sane suggestion for v2 i have read :)
20:57:44 <frosch123> v1 was to not depend on original baseset
20:57:49 <frosch123> v2 is to not depend on any baseset :p
20:58:15 <Rubidium> graphics: replace with something better, i.e. no NewGRF but something more sane (remove many inconsistencies), forced rotation of graphics (and thus map rotation), ...
20:58:25 * andythenorth would get rid of drive-in roadstops :P
20:58:36 <andythenorth> small thing, but they’re really crufty
21:00:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: which bits of newgrf spec would go in the bin? o_O
21:00:26 <andythenorth> if Rubidium’s suggestion was enacted, all of newgrf :P
21:00:42 <peter1138> multicore rewrite ;)
21:00:47 <andythenorth> if there was rotation, FIRS buildings would all become square, and symmetrical in both axes :P
21:01:24 <andythenorth> that’s new stuff :)
21:01:29 <frosch123> well, certainly decoupling of graphics from game logic
21:01:46 <frosch123> no animation state in map array and such
21:02:15 <frosch123> no tileloop and such
21:02:42 <andythenorth> drop the crazy cargo refitting decision tree :P
21:02:43 <planetmaker> that then would allow a true client-server structure
21:03:52 <andythenorth> delete outsized maps :)
21:04:12 <frosch123> make it like factorio
21:04:23 <frosch123> make the map expand when you explore/build things
21:04:28 <andythenorth> do I have to install factorio? :P
21:04:36 <andythenorth> it seems to have fans here :)
21:04:39 <frosch123> then we could play multiplayer
21:04:54 <frosch123> i haven't played factorio in multiplayer
21:05:10 <frosch123> but i think it needs to played at #ccop scale
21:05:12 * andythenorth needs time off work
21:05:23 <andythenorth> but if I take time off work, I’ll spend it with my kids
21:05:26 <andythenorth> this is how it goes :P
21:05:40 * andythenorth isn’t complaining, it’s fun
21:05:53 <frosch123> make the children do the work instead
21:06:22 <andythenorth> nah they’ll be big enough soon
21:06:32 <andythenorth> already 5 years gone by
21:10:08 <andythenorth> not many deletion suggestions eh? :)
21:10:40 <Rubidium> okay, you're asking for it... Windows and OSX support
21:12:32 <andythenorth> total removal? o_O
21:13:05 <frosch123> similar to drive-in roadstops
21:14:07 <frosch123> remove the statemachine stuff
21:14:12 <frosch123> statemachines are boring
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21:14:57 <frosch123> boring as timetables, cdist, pbs, pathfinders, ... all the things that decide things for the player
21:15:17 <frosch123> though i guess pathfinders needs to stay an option :p
21:15:26 <andythenorth> timetables are boring
21:15:39 <andythenorth> cdist is…technically impressive, but only really works for pax :P
21:15:46 <andythenorth> pbs I would really miss :(
21:15:59 <andythenorth> PBS probably the single most transforming feature I’ve seen ship :P
21:16:20 <frosch123> we need a different type of pbs :p
21:16:36 <frosch123> it should not be one that routes vehicles automatically
21:16:55 <andythenorth> by making trains pretty easy to route on complex networks, PBS disadvantages the other transport types even more
21:17:00 <frosch123> but one that allows players to (optionally) micromanage which routes may enter the signal block in parallel
21:17:29 <andythenorth> also PBS introduction was when I turned breakdowns off
21:17:47 <frosch123> nah, breakdowns will stay, else it's no "ttd" :p
21:17:51 <andythenorth> probably coincidence, but trains seemed to not find depots reliably without explicit orders
21:18:30 <frosch123> a train follows a reserved path
21:18:48 <frosch123> so, a train needs to make the decision to go to a depot at the signal instead of at the junction
21:18:53 <frosch123> so, path to depots is longer
21:19:03 <frosch123> also, path penalties are different with pbs signals
21:19:51 <frosch123> so, i am not surprised that pbs breaks some depot track layouts
21:19:56 <frosch123> though none which i use :p
21:21:17 <andythenorth> nobody mentioned high score table :)
21:21:42 <frosch123> aren't they already removed? :p
21:22:05 <frosch123> funnily noone complained about that :p
21:23:04 <planetmaker> no-one used it anyway ;)
21:23:40 <andythenorth> still here for me :P
21:24:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: there were once 4 highscore tables
21:24:33 * andythenorth has to test this
21:25:36 <andythenorth> - high score table in start game screen
21:25:40 <andythenorth> - high score table in game
21:25:50 <andythenorth> - detailed performance rating
21:26:00 <andythenorth> - company league table
21:26:20 <frosch123> there are 5 highscore tables
21:26:46 <andythenorth> balls, I missed some :(
21:26:50 <frosch123> 3 for difficulty levels (removed), 1 for custom difficulty (still exists), 1 for multiplayer (only within a single game, not stored on disk)
21:27:27 <andythenorth> in the start game screen
21:27:41 <andythenorth> get rid of ‘game options’ and ‘high score table’ and the layout balances :)
21:29:09 <planetmaker> and add 'wiki' and 'favourite server' buttons instead
21:32:44 <andythenorth> in this mind game, you can’t make feature suggestions, no matter how good :)
21:33:02 <andythenorth> remove maglev :P
21:33:07 <andythenorth> mostly because it’s ugly
21:33:57 <frosch123> well, i guess remove the stuff which noone care about, like stocks :p
21:34:30 <andythenorth> they are so lame
21:34:42 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 had an awesome stock market
21:34:49 <andythenorth> some scenarios were pure stock trading
21:35:29 <andythenorth> did infrastructure costs actually achieve the aim of rebalancing the game?
21:35:38 <andythenorth> or is it just something that we forget to turn off in multiplayer?
21:36:04 <frosch123> it removed airports from the game or so :p
21:36:39 <andythenorth> hmm…inflation...?
21:37:24 <frosch123> anyway, yes, none of the air features like noise limit, distance limit, infra cost seem to have received any big scale approval
21:37:36 <planetmaker> inflation... should go
21:37:56 <planetmaker> but doesn't really matter
21:37:56 <frosch123> realism should go :)
21:38:22 <andythenorth> noise limit is just a thing I have to use OpenGFX+ Airports to circumvent
21:38:37 <andythenorth> one reason we don’t play those fun MP games very often
21:38:46 <andythenorth> is that it takes so fricking long to configure a game ‘correctly'
21:39:13 <frosch123> that's only because my settings are always messed up due to debugging
21:40:01 <andythenorth> and so are mine…and planetmaker’s…and alberth’s :P
21:40:07 <frosch123> we need settings profiles :)
21:40:57 <frosch123> maybe load the previous game, change the seed and use "restart" to get new map with same settings
21:41:39 <andythenorth> what else confuses people to no benefit?
21:41:50 * andythenorth is looking in the game
21:41:57 <andythenorth> so many *good* features got added
21:42:11 <andythenorth> the game is radically better than 0.4 or whatever I started playing
21:42:21 <frosch123> the best features were always the interface features :)
21:42:53 <frosch123> and removing building restrictions
21:43:00 <andythenorth> roadstops on steep slopes
21:43:04 <andythenorth> alphabetised lists
21:43:38 <andythenorth> most of the attempts to ‘fix game balance’ or ‘add realism’ are FAIL
21:44:19 <planetmaker> they're fail because of backward compatibility
21:45:16 <frosch123> game balance is not fixable, because "money" is the only thing in ottd, and money is gained exponentially in every game i have ever seen
21:45:22 <frosch123> thus most games have something other than money
21:45:50 <andythenorth> the casual games (dragon farming, angry birds etc) my kids play
21:46:05 <planetmaker> maybe not because of that. But makes it definitely harder :)
21:46:11 <frosch123> "realism" is has ruined quite some features which should have been interesting, but i do not see where compatibility goes into that
21:46:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: is ‘smooth economy’ actually better?
21:46:53 <andythenorth> I never tested FIRS without it
21:47:12 <frosch123> when i was a noob to ottd i thought smooth economy was awesome
21:47:13 <andythenorth> and saw the comment added
21:47:33 <frosch123> but it's a stochastical fallacy
21:47:36 <frosch123> like your 3 doors thingie
21:47:44 <andythenorth> what was the intent of it?
21:47:54 <frosch123> smooth economy actually removes randomness, by adding so many small random changes, that they all average out
21:48:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: likely "realism" :p
21:48:06 <andythenorth> needs black swan events :P
21:48:32 <andythenorth> ’multiple industries per town’ still a setting, really?
21:49:16 <frosch123> yeah, that's a weird setting :p
21:49:32 <planetmaker> that's indeed weired
21:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: FIRS overrides smooth economy with the production callback
21:49:42 <planetmaker> is it still real?
21:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so the setting has no effect
21:50:01 <andythenorth> yes, the help text also explains the same
21:50:50 <andythenorth> towns can’t prevent newgrf building multiple industries per town?
21:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i played without an industry set (and thus with smooth economy) was before industry sets were supported
21:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, the first industry set i played was alpine, which probably leaves smooth economy untouched
21:51:40 <andythenorth> ho, no the multiple industry setting does apply to newgrf
21:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, why wouldn't it?
21:53:11 <andythenorth> because the location cbs are used?
21:53:29 <andythenorth> why wouldn’t the smooth economy apply to industries using production cb?
21:59:36 <Eddi|zuHause> because there can only ever be one way to set the production level
22:00:04 <andythenorth> dunno, seems to be unclear about proper domain
22:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody made the production callback compatible with non-power-of-two increments
22:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> make them cheaper to build, but more expensive to maintain
22:01:15 <andythenorth> that’s just newgrf
22:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of all people will never use newgrfs
22:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of all people will never change the default settings
22:02:29 <frosch123> remove flooding sea?
22:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (this applies to almost all programs ever made)
22:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that sounds fine
22:03:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: interesting
22:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: offer flat shore sprites
22:03:47 <andythenorth> ‘Disable electric rails’
22:03:54 <andythenorth> is that just a setting in case you have a stuck train?
22:04:01 <andythenorth> does it also make all railtypes powered?
22:04:12 <frosch123> it's from the time when catenary was horribly misaligned
22:04:16 <frosch123> and people wanted to play without elrails
22:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> or remove the current way of providing sea shores, and provide them more like river shores (but a sandy-er version)
22:04:31 <frosch123> then it was properly aligned, and then came transpacency settings
22:04:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: you missed eddi's hind
22:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is a setting for TTD-purists that basically has no point in being there anymore
22:04:50 <frosch123> flat shores mean flat docks :p
22:05:01 <andythenorth> that’s a feature :)
22:05:17 <andythenorth> you have to phrase it as ‘delete docks that need slopes'
22:05:18 <planetmaker> probably would make sense. And flat bridges= :P
22:05:43 <andythenorth> deleting a lot of things would transform the game to a v2, and clear away a lot of crap
22:05:49 <andythenorth> and is achieveable :P
22:06:00 <andythenorth> adding features needs design, spec, blah blah blah
22:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "remove electric rail" settings make all electric trains also powered on non-electric rail
22:06:36 <andythenorth> it looked like a thing for unsticking stuck trains :P
22:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and then converts all ELRL to RAIL
22:07:14 <andythenorth> remove river rapids?
22:07:20 <andythenorth> dunno, rivers are tedious
22:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, but make it more obvious that ships cannot traverse them, and make locks easier to place along such a rapid
22:07:44 <peter1138> oh yeah, i was doing something with docks wasn't i?
22:08:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: shorter locks?
22:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no reason why locks are as huge as they are, other than the ships are also huge
22:09:17 <planetmaker> locks should just be normal station tiles which can be placed on water or shore tiles
22:09:18 <andythenorth> remove the bit of cb15E that makes it trivial to break orders silently :)
22:09:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: locks / docks /s
22:09:30 <planetmaker> freely buildable like track-less rail station tiles
22:09:38 <planetmaker> yes, dock tiles. sorry
22:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i called these things "traffic objects"
22:09:56 <andythenorth> ha, remove cargo subtypes…? o_O
22:10:13 <andythenorth> even though I use subtypes in a few places still :P
22:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> look at how subtypes are abused currently, and provide new methods reproducing those features without abusing anything
22:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> like "vehicle views" that are set in purchase menu, and then cannot be changed anymore afterwards
22:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> other than selling the vehicle and buying a new one
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22:14:07 <andythenorth> remove the cbs that aren’t cb 36, but duplicate it
22:14:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: we were already at remove newgrf
22:14:58 <frosch123> why do you talk calbacks?
22:15:08 * andythenorth apologises profusely
22:15:56 <andythenorth> somehow I’d like to remove finances window, but that makes no sense
22:16:05 * andythenorth finds the finances window really non-useful
22:18:09 <andythenorth> this is not a game of mornington crescent
22:18:17 <andythenorth> and you do not pass go and collect £200
22:19:21 <andythenorth> ho, remove trams...?
22:19:24 <andythenorth> they’re a bit silly
22:19:45 <frosch123> maybe remove vehicle income
22:20:09 <andythenorth> that is actually interesting
22:20:17 <andythenorth> would totally change the game
22:20:31 <andythenorth> it’s crap as an economic sim
22:20:46 <andythenorth> the economics were clearly a total “can’t really be arsed” for Chris Sawyer
22:20:54 <frosch123> you get money for building tracks and providing a transport capacity
22:21:06 <andythenorth> you have a total cost, and a total revenue
22:21:12 <frosch123> you lose money if you fail to provide the capacity
22:21:17 <andythenorth> no more leg profit calculation crap
22:21:26 <andythenorth> no more ‘this vehicle is losing money'
22:21:38 <andythenorth> no more feature requests for full vehicle economic history
22:21:52 <andythenorth> no need for red / green symbols in the vehicle list
22:22:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: experimental branch? o_O
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22:23:39 <frosch123> money is after all still not interesting :p
22:23:50 * andythenorth wonders if it’s a good idea, or just sounds like a good idea
22:24:18 <frosch123> it's certainly an idea which noone will understand :p
22:24:35 <andythenorth> well, I understood it :(
22:25:09 <andythenorth> in the dragon farming casual game, individual dragon profitability is not tracked :P
22:25:21 <andythenorth> they just farm wood and fish, and you get a score :P
22:25:33 <andythenorth> you pick the ones that look cool and have good stats
22:27:45 <andythenorth> frosch123: eh, money is not interesting, or money should be removed from the game totally?
22:29:47 <frosch123> you need something to pace the game
22:30:00 <andythenorth> could be other ways
22:30:03 <andythenorth> tech levels and such
22:30:12 <andythenorth> ‘level up’ is a very silly mechanic
22:30:18 <andythenorth> except it works, annoyingly well :(
22:30:21 <frosch123> you should be able to do what is necessary, but not more
22:30:55 <andythenorth> ‘state-owned transportation tycoon'
22:30:58 <frosch123> hmm, remove landscaping? :p
22:31:10 <andythenorth> that would hurt my game style :)
22:31:16 <planetmaker> well, one kinda can do that already. To some degree
22:31:30 <frosch123> i think most modern games do not support landscaping
22:31:35 <frosch123> but only tunneling and foundations
22:31:39 <frosch123> to some limited amount
22:31:55 * andythenorth doesn’t play many games tbh
22:32:26 <frosch123> i don't think "landscaping" fits into the minecraft category
22:33:01 * andythenorth considers trying a game with self-imposed no landscaping rule
22:33:02 <frosch123> can you landscape in todays' simcity? or train fever?
22:33:11 <andythenorth> not in Railroad Tycoon
22:33:15 <frosch123> i only saw bridges, tunnels and foundations
22:33:20 <frosch123> but no manual hills
22:34:03 <frosch123> and certainly no hill flattening or sea flooding
22:34:32 <frosch123> i.e. the landscape is static except for where tracks are
22:35:50 <andythenorth> how about landscaping, but only 1 level above or below original grade?
22:38:49 <planetmaker> yes... would increase the challange in some places
22:41:46 * andythenorth has run out of removal ideas
22:41:52 <andythenorth> did I mention trams?
22:43:02 <peter1138> that would ruin copy & paste
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22:46:07 <andythenorth> just remove that :)
22:49:52 <andythenorth> frosch123: remove station walking? o_O
22:51:52 <frosch123> one could reduce the incoming for the distance from train wagon to industry
22:52:01 <frosch123> but we already removed vehicle income
22:52:54 <frosch123> i.e. a feeder truck from industry to station platform should be cheaper than using the station spread for transport
22:53:13 <frosch123> possibly needs trucks on stations
22:53:46 <frosch123> cargo is not stored in the station sign, but on single platforms or even tiles
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22:53:54 <frosch123> you can use trucks to move cargo to platforms
22:54:08 <frosch123> or pay for expensive automatic transport within station spread
22:54:51 <frosch123> whenever the game does something automatically for you
22:55:01 <andythenorth> would also unintentionally improve the display of cargo at stations (except we’re deleting newgrf) :)
22:55:01 <frosch123> there should be the option to do it better with micro management
22:55:19 <frosch123> i think that holds for everything in the game: signalling, routing, cargo distribuition
22:56:00 <frosch123> automatic is easy mode, manual adjustments are advanced mode
22:56:13 <andythenorth> like a camera :P
22:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> you lose money if you fail to provide the capacity <-- that is how i think subsidies should work
22:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you get 60 months exclusive rights, if you transport <X> during that time, you get paid, otherwise you lose money
22:57:20 <frosch123> whenever there was something that could not be controlled correctly in ottd, someone added some automatic to solve it
22:57:46 <andythenorth> that’s hard to do well :P
22:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i always wanted to micromanage approach loops on airports
22:57:56 <andythenorth> but it avoids user interface design
22:58:10 <frosch123> like pbs to replace detailed signalling/routing, cdist to replace fractional transfer orders
22:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but the timetabling was not fine enough
22:58:22 <andythenorth> also the trend to larger maps tends towards automation
22:58:29 <planetmaker> then we need to allow afd88 the polyline track tool. And the other one with multi-tracks, too ;)
22:58:35 <andythenorth> because I have 10,000 trains :(
22:58:36 <frosch123> timetabling to replace programmable orders
22:58:45 <planetmaker> and actually... they make sense
22:59:03 <frosch123> polyline is nice, yes
22:59:07 * andythenorth would sooner have a 100 year game on a 256x256 map :P
22:59:17 <planetmaker> we should probably tell him...
22:59:32 <frosch123> multitrack is not quite for me
22:59:48 <frosch123> it's along the copy&paste stuff, it has no purpose on interesting maps
23:00:02 <andythenorth> I just spent 75 years making one spine route work on this map :P
23:00:13 <andythenorth> maybe I’m just bad at train networks, dunno
23:00:22 <andythenorth> but Busy Bee kept wanting stuff added :P
23:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> multitrack tool will only mean that i always pick the wrong track tile to extend
23:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so the other track is on the wrong side
23:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why does this screenshot look so distorted?
23:02:39 <frosch123> anyway, to finish my point. i don't think automatics make good gameplay
23:02:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: compressed to make it smaller
23:02:54 <frosch123> there should always be a micromanagent option
23:02:55 <andythenorth> it was silly size
23:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, but there should always also exist an atomatic option
23:03:24 * andythenorth is now micro-managing cdist :P
23:03:25 <frosch123> same for airports. the newgrf statemachine spec makes an interesting challenge for the newgrf author to design their favorite airport
23:03:38 <planetmaker> :) true. But not for the player
23:03:46 <andythenorth> too many features for authors :P
23:03:50 <andythenorth> except the ones I asked for
23:03:51 <frosch123> but it is as boring to gameplay as placing a fixed 16x16 object that always looks the same
23:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: include the airport minigame into grfcodec ;)
23:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or the game, for that matter
23:05:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: after my last few games, I’m convinced the fun is cramming routes into the terrain
23:05:30 <andythenorth> not pissing about making pseudo economic choices about which vehicle to use and such
23:05:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: that has always also been my goal :)
23:06:17 <frosch123> thus mountainious maps, and silicon valley
23:07:05 <frosch123> the goal of silicon valley is actually how i mostly play
23:07:46 <andythenorth> my last map had only one of each major processing industry
23:07:57 <andythenorth> defacto, similar result :P
23:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never used silicon valley
23:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i rarely ever get to play with cargos, as passengers are trumping everything
23:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> passengers are IMBA!
23:09:42 <frosch123> i never liked pax, because they are bidirectional
23:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i always liked pax since i played paxdest
23:10:00 <frosch123> transporting something back after you transported it to some place never made sense to me :p
23:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> before that i found pax incredibly boring and stupid
23:10:41 <frosch123> well, the only interesting thing i see about cdist is that it increases the network load over time, by making cargo stay longer on board
23:10:49 <frosch123> but that likely only works for pax
23:11:37 <frosch123> so, well, yes, cdist for pax :)
23:12:06 <andythenorth> I don’t like to criticise cdist :|
23:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist works best on passengers, and worst on goods/food
23:12:22 <andythenorth> but it has rather a lot of user visible settings, for something that only automates transfers
23:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it makes other cargos easier to transfer, but may have side effects
23:13:56 <andythenorth> you just have to change route building
23:14:20 <andythenorth> one pickup station per destination
23:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no. one destination per cargo
23:14:36 <andythenorth> then station rating takes care of distribution, and cdist does the transfer
23:14:38 <frosch123> maybe we should rename it
23:14:49 <frosch123> "cargo distribution" -> "cargo-based pathfinder" :p
23:14:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nah that is totally incompatible with GS like Busy Bee
23:15:29 <andythenorth> and it increases the challenge interestingly, because more stations have to be crammed in around an industry
23:15:35 <andythenorth> instead of one mega station, which is trivial
23:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one destination per linkgraph connected component
23:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but you run into the problem of only 2 stations getting cargo
23:16:40 <andythenorth> is that a thing that happens?
23:17:04 <andythenorth> I had unexpected vehicles-waiting when I had 5 or so pickup stations
23:17:07 <andythenorth> all with very high ratings
23:17:15 <andythenorth> and cargo waiting at other stations
23:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, only the 2 stations with highest rating get cargo. so unless the rating drops because of cargo waiting, the other stations never get cargo
23:18:01 <andythenorth> my new method is totally flawed :(
23:18:07 <andythenorth> I thought I’d defeated cdist :(
23:18:25 <planetmaker> I think that's a limit which also could go. Or the logic behind distribution onto stations could use a change
23:18:50 <andythenorth> I assumed it was a bug :P
23:19:01 <frosch123> yup, reduce station spread, and add truck transport to single industries :p
23:19:15 <frosch123> the problem does not exist with zero station catchment area :p
23:19:34 <frosch123> give all industries built-in truck stops
23:19:36 <andythenorth> how do the trucks pickup from the industry? o_O
23:19:47 <andythenorth> we had a hack for that in FIRS :P
23:19:54 <andythenorth> gaps in buildings :P
23:19:58 <planetmaker> hm, interesting idea, frosch123
23:20:28 <frosch123> but rv capacity actually must be able to serve a single industry's output :p
23:20:45 <andythenorth> could be done :P
23:20:51 <frosch123> usually that has been a fail part of those "gaps in building"
23:20:58 <frosch123> a signle tile station cannot handle the load
23:21:06 <andythenorth> make RV stations like depots :P
23:21:12 <andythenorth> probably not a direction you like :)
23:21:35 <andythenorth> infinite capacity, constrained throughput rate
23:21:54 <andythenorth> ‘upgrade this industry’
23:22:14 <frosch123> make rv slow, high capacity and expensive
23:22:23 <andythenorth> I believe somebody tried that once
23:22:28 <frosch123> so they work only as feeder
23:22:43 <andythenorth> add the conveyor / pipe transport type
23:22:48 <andythenorth> but also slow and expensive
23:22:51 <frosch123> the high capacity makes them able to move cargo to station
23:23:07 <frosch123> but the slow speed and high cost makes them unable to turn in a profit
23:23:08 <andythenorth> sounds like a tram :P
23:23:12 <frosch123> which must be done by the fast train
23:23:22 <frosch123> but the fast train is unable to pickup the cargo directly from the industry
23:23:41 <andythenorth> is this how factorio works?
23:24:00 <frosch123> factorio has 4 transport methods
23:24:06 <frosch123> belts, which are awesome
23:24:21 <frosch123> pipelines which are boring, essentially like canals :p
23:24:55 <frosch123> trains which i haven't figured out how to use correctly, and i am currently thinking they only work at #coop scale
23:25:37 <frosch123> and flying robots, which are like aircraft. too easy to be fun
23:27:28 <andythenorth> hmm, there is OS X version
23:28:07 <andythenorth> ach /me should go to sleep
23:28:52 <andythenorth> did someone make a copy of the deletion roadmap then? ^^^^^ o_O
23:29:46 <frosch123> just delete everything
23:29:52 <frosch123> then add back what you want to keep
23:30:02 <frosch123> that way you do not miss something to remove
23:31:04 <andythenorth> oh I actually have to run around in factorio?
23:31:24 <frosch123> it is also possibly to play without character
23:31:27 <andythenorth> hmm inventory and stuff
23:31:34 * andythenorth is not very good at this kind of game :P
23:31:43 <frosch123> not sure what method is easier to play
23:31:44 <andythenorth> I have enough trouble remembering my RL phone and keys
23:31:56 <frosch123> with a character you are blocked by inftrastructure
23:32:30 <andythenorth> the alternative is freeplay?
23:32:36 * andythenorth will try more tomorrow
23:32:47 <andythenorth> I tried Kerbal for a bit, but couldn’t work it
23:33:04 <andythenorth> Euro Truck Simulator 2 has awful graphics, so that was disappointing
23:33:17 <andythenorth> I had a bridge building game, but couldn’t complete level 12 or such
23:33:21 <andythenorth> and 2048 is over :P
23:33:24 * andythenorth needs a new game
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23:35:10 <frosch123> hmm, bridge builder... that was a thing in 2001 :p
23:35:26 <frosch123> hmm, likely even somewhat earlier
23:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i played bridge builder around 2001, but none of the updated/remade versions that came later
23:40:29 <frosch123> i also tried the first 3d version as a demo
23:40:36 <frosch123> but it did not convince me
23:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what ever happened to Moorhuhn?
23:40:54 <frosch123> it got replaced with candy crush
23:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that was probably the first viral game i came across
23:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that wasn't exactly viral, in the sense that it was spread by "mouth-to-mouth"
23:42:02 <frosch123> anyway, today people play on their smartphones at work, no longer on the office computers :p
23:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it was just there, so everybody played it
23:42:03 <Hiddenfunstuff> how bout that space pinball found from Win XP?
23:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: same story
23:42:35 <frosch123> i liked the epic pinball from 1993 or so
23:42:46 <frosch123> no other pinball was as interesting after that
23:43:02 <frosch123> "epic megagames pinball" or so
23:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember how the pinball game i played was called
23:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the first game ever that i remember playing was sokoban
23:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and a version of tetris that went way too fast unless you pressed the turbo button
23:44:16 <frosch123> wow, i guessed the date correctly :o
23:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, it was definitely not that
23:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it was probably earlier than that
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23:52:01 <frosch123> cleary written with borland stuff
23:52:05 <frosch123> and seriously buggy
23:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that wasn't it either
23:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i have no clue what to search for
23:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and i have no floppy disk drive to comb through old disks
23:53:36 <frosch123> well, that one was from 1989
23:53:46 <frosch123> those two are the oldest ones i know
23:54:21 <peter1138> gotta love those borland fonts
23:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it had a guy with a long nose on the title screen
23:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe i'm totally mixing up memories there
23:57:39 <frosch123> egavga.bgi is only about 5kb :p
23:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> first time someone showed me a program displaying gothic font, it blew my mind
23:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it was actually really simple, i think it showed "hello world" in 3 sizes (erasing the previous one before displaying the next)
23:59:55 <frosch123> likely same here, but i mostly remember the laserjet 4 which could print with dom casual
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