IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-07-07
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02:05:47 <Supercheese> Hope the devzone compiles my changeset
02:06:31 <Supercheese> forgot the sprite files
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10:33:59 <Nemoder> I think I found a bug, I had just enough money to buy a train depot but only enough for one of the rail connections, after I bought the 2nd track I got a desync
10:35:04 <Nemoder> when I reconnected the train on the track was much farther along, as if the 2nd track had always been there
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11:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Nemoder: bugs like this are almost impossible to fix without a way to reproduce them quickly
11:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Nemoder: the cause for a desync was likely way before it was noticed
11:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Nemoder: so the desync wasn't related to building the depot at all
11:07:10 <Nemoder> possibly, but I was the only one connected and hadn't been doing anything else for quite some time
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11:09:24 <Nemoder> I'd try to reproduce it but now I'm busy trying to build an empire :P
11:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that makes things worse. because the less you do, the longer the desync will stay undetected
11:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> at some point, the desync resulted in the server thinking you have more money than your client did, so the server built the additional rail right away, while your client didn't
11:23:27 <planetmaker> Nemoder, a desync bug needs action by the server administrator. They need to enable desync debugging on the machine, load a savegame and then wait till it was reproduced by a player
11:24:25 <Nemoder> It's my server, but this was the first desync I've ever had on it. perhaps one of the mods isn't as happy with the new 1.5.1
11:25:04 <planetmaker> mods? If you use faked revisions clients, then of course desyncs are likely
11:25:26 <planetmaker> we can only debug desyncs when both, server and client were built from the exact same source code
11:25:36 <planetmaker> In all other cases, desyncs are rather expected than not
11:26:03 <Nemoder> an not source mod, just newgrf stuff
11:26:44 <planetmaker> They should not matter. But some NewGRFs maybe use a feature which is needed to trigger it. It's still an OpenTTD bug, though
11:26:46 <Nemoder> but ya, that's why I mentioned it casually here instead of proper bug report :)
11:27:12 <planetmaker> NewGRFs are an officially supported thing. They must not trigger bugs :)
11:27:15 <Nemoder> I'll just keep playing and see if it ever happens again
11:27:29 <planetmaker> Nemoder, if you want to see it fixed, enable desync debugging, if you can
11:28:29 <Nemoder> ya, i'll see if it happens more than once then look into that
11:30:36 <planetmaker> it's worth to dig into it when you saw it once. The more seldom it occurs, the harder to find. And it's not like you can't simply continue to play and try find that desync with desync debugging enabled at the same time
11:31:09 <planetmaker> the only backdraw is that it costs performance on the server side and disk space there. But if nothing is found, simply clean all those savegames and the log file
11:32:12 <planetmaker> and yes, there sadly is really no other way than people who see it to produce the data and give it to us. There's so many variables we are unable to find it ourselves by simply looking and playing
11:32:32 <planetmaker> (and those which we do, are rather quickly fixed, but there's so many NewGRFs and playing styles...)
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14:16:23 <supermop_> tried a new ramen place
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15:05:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause are the optimum lengths (in n/8 units) for trams in tram stops?
15:06:17 <andythenorth> I want to give trams a significant density advantage (capacity / length) compared to trucks, at the cost of lower speed
15:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a huge difference in efficiency between 1.5 tiles and 2 tiles
15:06:58 <andythenorth> oops, I missed ‘what’ at the start of my question, sorry :|
15:07:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth, 'density' advantage is easiest done by giving it higher capacity. Not necessarily by making them longer. It's independent choices :)
15:07:37 <andythenorth> is 2x the capacity at 2x the length and advantage?
15:07:49 <andythenorth> are the two dimensions orthogonal?
15:07:58 * andythenorth has typing troubles
15:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd make between 1 and 1.5 tiles, probably
15:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> shorter than 1 has issues with overtaking at end stations
15:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because before the 1st one arrives and marks the platform as occupied, the 2nd one has already chosen a platform
15:09:09 <andythenorth> so 2 units at 8/8
15:09:33 <andythenorth> or 6/8 engine, 5/8 + 5/8 wagons
15:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and 2 or longer means you have to increase station size significantly for multiple units loading at the same time
15:10:09 <andythenorth> yeah, that’s tedious
15:10:22 <andythenorth> the long refit for HEQS trams is annoying in practice
15:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> this, however is most significant for passenger trams
15:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so i'd say 1.5 gives the optimum result
15:10:54 <andythenorth> long trams results in trams that behave like trains w.r.t to blocking, but don’t have any signals etc to handle routing proably
15:11:09 * andythenorth is going to go away and drink coffee
15:13:57 <andythenorth> current vehicles are annoyingly 7/8
15:14:14 <andythenorth> but they need redrawing anyway
15:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i suppose 3x7/8 would work
15:18:26 <andythenorth> doesn’t seem optimum though
15:18:51 <andythenorth> currently only 75t capacity for 21/8 length
15:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on how exaggerated your truck capacities are
15:22:53 <andythenorth> approx 200% of RL
15:23:03 <andythenorth> as a rough guide
15:23:55 <andythenorth> for the ‘brit’ and ‘euro’ rosters
15:24:43 <andythenorth> typically that would be around 8/8 long
15:25:03 <andythenorth> 1 cab + 1 trailer
15:26:33 <andythenorth> (RL is no guide but…) RL trams have axle loads of about 10t, so a 4 axle tram would be 40t gross
15:26:41 <andythenorth> of which about 50% would be payload
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16:43:32 <planetmaker> Alberth, *prove* wrong ;)
16:47:14 <Alberth> hmm, website is failing for me
16:49:25 <planetmaker> it quotes 63 years of work for 241k LOC on OpenTTD using the COCOMO model
16:49:38 <planetmaker> the difference of 60k LOC is probably the comments
16:50:56 <planetmaker> anyway, I think your reply is a very nice one
16:51:09 <planetmaker> as was your original answer
16:51:37 <Alberth> thanks for the additions
16:52:46 <Alberth> I doubt it will help, but it never hurts to try :p
16:53:19 <planetmaker> the answer probably won't sway the person you replied to. But is useful for nearly everyone else :)
16:59:53 <peter1138> Because "ohloh" was too hard
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17:09:14 <Alberth> it wasn't 'open' enough :)
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17:47:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "with decreasing Y-O-Y commits" <-- so they also agree, openttd is dying :p
17:47:22 <andythenorth> all the problems are solved
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18:24:38 <andythenorth> pissing contests about LoC count? :o
18:26:18 <andythenorth> everyone talking about LoC should go into management :)
18:26:28 <andythenorth> and pay programmers according to how many LoC they write :)
18:27:27 <andythenorth> FIRS is 354958 LoC :P
18:33:17 <Alberth> I'll stop cleaning up code then :p
18:33:37 <andythenorth> does that reduce LoC? o_O
18:35:00 <Alberth> it's like the transfer problem, you think you need N, but later someone shows you can do with N-M :)
18:38:06 <andythenorth> has anyone done a linkgraph of dependencies in openttd?
18:38:23 <andythenorth> I can write 300k LoC to do things like generate web pages
18:38:26 <andythenorth> where nothing is connected :P
18:39:04 <Alberth> firs will have that too, I think
18:39:39 <andythenorth> _most_ of my newgrf compiles would have low-connectedness
18:39:50 <andythenorth> not all, but mostly I achieved it
18:39:57 <andythenorth> whereas OpenTTD is probably very connected
18:41:29 <andythenorth> the estimates for ‘from scratch’ should figure in ‘build a community'
18:41:34 <andythenorth> or ‘do all your own QA'
18:41:59 <andythenorth> as well as ‘now you have to do support for players'
18:42:16 <andythenorth> ‘now you need automated builds'
18:42:28 <andythenorth> ‘now you need to maintain your cross-platform toolchain'
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18:48:24 <frosch123> read it as "lines of comments" and it is better :p
19:47:53 * andythenorth wonders about ‘lines of bugs'
19:49:46 <michi_cc> That's identical to lines of code, isn't it? :p
19:50:09 <frosch123> i have seen code with a ratio of 1 to 5
19:50:23 <frosch123> 1 easy to spot bug per 5 lines
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19:53:28 <andythenorth> I aim for 1 per line
19:53:39 <andythenorth> more than that is not a good sign
19:55:43 <andythenorth> this game might finally be over
19:55:48 * andythenorth played 1970-2050
19:56:08 <andythenorth> BB has given me a run of boring goals :)
19:56:24 <andythenorth> either I win them automatically due to service provided already
19:56:26 <Alberth> it's trying to encourage you to stop :p
19:56:38 <andythenorth> or there’s no convenient source for the required cargo
19:56:44 <andythenorth> and I made myself a ‘no funding’ rule :P
19:57:07 <andythenorth> I could use planes :P
19:57:30 * andythenorth screenshots the whole map :P
20:06:49 <andythenorth> OpenTTD’s screenshot compression is aggressive
20:08:30 <andythenorth> photoshop is giving me OOM warnings about attempting to export the same image
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20:11:07 <andythenorth> about 50% of the connections are due to BB goals
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20:26:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: any Bee features we should add?
20:26:27 * andythenorth is going to start a new game
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20:38:43 <Alberth> download fails, I can't seem to connect to most of the internet this evening :(
20:47:11 <andythenorth> slow internet is slow :P
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20:55:02 <Supercheese> I don't think I've ever bothered to obtain grfcodec source
20:55:09 <Supercheese> since I always use NML
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20:56:11 <frosch123> who would want grfcodec :p
20:58:02 <Supercheese> pm suggested I also patch grfcodec to support a new animation trigger
20:58:09 <andythenorth> Iron Horse uses grfcodec
20:58:17 <frosch123> i doubt nforenum knows about animation triggers
20:58:18 <andythenorth> although that might be a dubious choice
20:58:49 <Supercheese> I don't entirely know what would be required
20:58:56 <Supercheese> NML just wanted a new global constant defined
20:59:13 <Supercheese> but just using bit 5 without the global constant was perfectly fine too
21:10:00 * andythenorth adventures in trams :P
21:10:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you have an opinion on trying to prevent repeating goals in BB? :)
21:11:16 <Alberth> it should avoid them imho
21:11:30 <andythenorth> can we just track the destination-cargo pairs?
21:12:03 * andythenorth has deadlocked flash games that way
21:12:16 <andythenorth> but eh, that’s maybe not a problem here
21:12:17 <Alberth> but eventually you'll run out of goals then
21:12:23 <frosch123> the cheap method would be: decide for a goal, hide it for a while, and only if it is not completed within 3 months, actually annouce it as goal
21:12:51 <andythenorth> this is why andythenorth can be an engineer and product designer, but not a programmer :(
21:12:57 <andythenorth> I never think of things like that
21:13:34 <andythenorth> I have more experience than lots of people here
21:13:50 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.864864864865
21:13:57 <andythenorth> 86% of my life :P
21:14:02 <Alberth> I am sure you can come up with neat tricks in engineering or product designs
21:14:14 <andythenorth> mostly I design things to try and avoid programming :P
21:14:43 <andythenorth> meta-programming :P
21:15:20 <andythenorth> maybe I just ‘solved’ my tram roster
21:16:01 <andythenorth> gen 1 is steam engine + wagons
21:16:25 <peter1138> just shove everything in
21:16:46 <andythenorth> peter1138: no no no
21:16:58 <andythenorth> I have to shove it in, but pretend there’s a rationale :P
21:17:25 <andythenorth> also I need to minimise drawing
21:19:17 <frosch123> maybe try making vehicles like industries
21:19:24 <frosch123> draw some partial vehicles
21:19:35 <frosch123> and recombine them into many vehicles
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21:29:08 <frosch123> make some inclined vans
21:29:30 <frosch123> where the front part is higher than the rear part
21:29:41 <frosch123> looks weird, but less regular
21:29:54 <frosch123> it even seems to be common for some tank wagons
21:29:57 <andythenorth> oh step-frame trailers?
21:33:11 <andythenorth> yeah that’s step-frame
21:33:16 <andythenorth> trucks in trucks :)
21:36:31 <frosch123> trailer is above cabin, not purely behind it
21:36:40 <andythenorth> nah it’s a rigid truck ;)
21:36:47 <andythenorth> ‘overtaking permitted’ :P
21:37:09 <andythenorth> overlapping that way does work with trailers, but yeah, not perfect
21:37:35 <andythenorth> have to cut pixels out of the cab
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21:40:34 <frosch123> anyway, i mean the trailers could be more irregular shaped
21:40:49 <frosch123> instead of rectangular
21:41:49 <andythenorth> the set needs some feedback tbh
21:41:53 <andythenorth> I am a bit stuck with it
21:42:02 <andythenorth> and Nobody Uses RVs :P
21:43:30 <frosch123> i would use them, if they had some advantage over trams :)
21:44:08 <andythenorth> what qualifies as advantage?
21:44:13 <andythenorth> and which trams? :P
21:44:36 <frosch123> i use them for short distance feeder services
21:44:40 <frosch123> where other people station-walk
21:44:54 <frosch123> they do not need to be fast
21:45:02 <frosch123> but they need high capacity on little space
21:45:40 <andythenorth> how much is ‘high'
21:45:54 <andythenorth> looking at HEQS, the capacities are quite high
21:46:14 <frosch123> servicing 500 units per month using a single road stop
21:46:47 <frosch123> usually i use the medium length
21:47:27 <frosch123> so, maybe rv could be faster accelerating than trams
21:47:34 <frosch123> so they free the stop faster
21:47:57 <frosch123> big TE and big loading speed
21:48:01 <frosch123> and not too small capacity
21:48:17 <andythenorth> Road Hog trucks are 30-40t
21:48:52 <andythenorth> they struggle to reach top speed though :P
21:49:52 <andythenorth> so trams need to be 80t-150t or so
21:50:01 <andythenorth> within a 16/8 length
21:50:07 <andythenorth> or a 24/8 length
21:51:15 <andythenorth> so probably 40t per unit or so
22:02:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: 25mph / 35mph / 45mph? (3 generations 1860-1960)
22:06:22 <frosch123> add another generation 1990 with 75 mph?
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22:14:51 * andythenorth hoped someone would suggest that
22:15:10 <andythenorth> now I just need the option for diesel trams :P
22:23:55 <andythenorth> the Baldy’s Boss bot is still posting :)
22:24:05 <andythenorth> whoever wrote that code has a good sense of humour
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23:21:36 * planetmaker ponders the airplane landing trigger patch
23:24:25 <frosch123> it should pass something usefil in var18
23:24:29 <frosch123> just not sure what :p
23:24:43 <frosch123> not sure whether there is a runway id in the statemachine
23:24:59 <frosch123> and it should also trigger for heliports then
23:25:11 <frosch123> and likely also for taking off :)
23:26:05 <planetmaker> hm, taking off does not cause black stuff on the runway :)
23:26:18 <planetmaker> so it would need means to distinguish take-off and touch-down
23:26:31 <frosch123> yes, i think the current patch is over-specific
23:26:55 <frosch123> only triggering for planes is stupid, instead there should be a var which indicates that
23:27:40 <frosch123> something like runway/heliport id
23:27:47 <frosch123> and possibly a second trigger for takeoff
23:28:00 <frosch123> though not sure whether takeoff triggers at the start or end of takeoff
23:28:25 <frosch123> so, possibly touchdown only is better defined for now
23:37:49 <planetmaker> hm, yes... landings only. But all, both heli and plane
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23:41:45 <frosch123> doesn't look like the runways are numbered in current state machines
23:43:19 <planetmaker> any numbering scheme would be arbitrary. And make any newgrf airports even more difficult :)
23:44:10 <frosch123> well, one could use the state number :p
23:44:24 <frosch123> but it has not been as constant in the past
23:44:31 <frosch123> people kept on changing the state machines
23:44:37 <frosch123> to make them more efficient
23:44:50 <frosch123> otoh, number of runways do not change :p
23:45:17 <planetmaker> but for really custom airports? Also, for the existing ones, how are the runways numbered?
23:45:57 <frosch123> whatever provides the graphics always has runways in specific positions ni mind
23:46:09 <frosch123> it does not matter whether the airports would be big entities, or tile based
23:46:22 <frosch123> the graphics would always be blocks
23:46:30 <frosch123> either one big, or multiple small ones
23:48:39 <planetmaker> I thought of providing the tile_pos in extra_callback_info2 (that's var 0x18, I think)
23:48:40 * frosch123 ponders adding a trigger byte to AirportFTAbuildup / AirportFTA structs
23:49:09 <frosch123> planetmaker: that's complicated wrt. rotations
23:49:22 <planetmaker> tile_pos relative to Northern tip... meh :P
23:50:15 <frosch123> but ok, a relative position in default rotation could also work
23:51:21 <frosch123> one byte for X, one byte for Y, one byte for the state change (takeoff start, takeoff end, land begin, touchdown, land end)
23:51:34 <frosch123> (... start loading, finish loading)
23:51:46 <frosch123> possibly all of the transitions states
23:51:51 <planetmaker> one *byte* for x and y?
23:52:05 <planetmaker> 7 bits each would definitely suffice
23:52:08 <frosch123> yes, airports are bigger than 16x16, aren't they?
23:52:22 <planetmaker> stations can't be bigger than 64^2
23:52:37 <planetmaker> and airports are not bigger than 16x16 (currently)
23:56:59 <frosch123> well, there are either YX or YYXX formats
23:57:07 <frosch123> i would pick YYXX if there is enough space
23:58:10 <frosch123> might try something tomorrow
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