IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-06-18
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04:18:27 <supermop> nice and warm up there?
04:18:49 <Pikka> mm I wouldn't go that far :)
04:19:45 <supermop> nicer that here perhaps
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08:23:23 <peter1138> Pretty damn warm here :(
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11:24:01 <khalil> Hey, I have a question
11:24:30 <khalil> Error: Cannot open file 'innerhighlight.grf'
11:24:48 <khalil> I got that error when trying to launch the game
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11:57:06 <Flygon> I actually thought it was a Ragnarok Online derp
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12:56:34 <planetmaker> Flygon, sounds like you compiled a patch pack which requires a grf file but didn't provide it
12:57:07 <Flygon> I meant khalil's problem
12:57:09 <planetmaker> err... same colour. Sorry :) yes
12:57:11 <Flygon> I got no problems my end xP
12:57:27 <Flygon> Tho, RO's client handled .grf problems horridly
12:57:52 <Flygon> And then you consider the patcher would sometimes forget to download and repack certain files into the main .grf...
12:58:12 <Flygon> Been using some sort of compressed .grf type file since 2001 xP
12:58:23 <Flygon> No relation to OTTD's format, just the same file extension
12:59:29 <Flygon> But, yeah. It really likes to crash when some .grfs are missing :B
12:59:39 <Flygon> Because, when you're Korean
12:59:50 <Flygon> Error handlers that insert dummies don't exist :B
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13:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what a terrible way to make a gif out of something...
13:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, if you're making a video of this position, try to capture the whole journey of the train from when the first part exits the tunnel, till the last part of the train exits the picture. to convey the actual hugeness of the train
13:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of a handful of frames, that basically show nothing that a still picture wouldn't show you as well
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16:02:14 <SneakySnake> Hi. I have a steel mill that produces steel. I want to transport that steel to a factory, but the truck station isn't getting any steel. When I built it, it said "Accepts Iron ore. Supplies: Steel", but it doesn't seem to be getting any steel, even though the "production last month" of the steel mill is greater than zero.
16:02:22 <SneakySnake> Am I missing something?
16:03:09 <Hiddenfunstuff> is the station in range?
16:03:15 <V453000> did any steel vehicle load at the station yet?
16:03:33 <Hiddenfunstuff> Yes that.. by default the steel doesnt sit in station unless theres need for it
16:03:40 <SneakySnake> It's waiting to load, but it's not getting any steel
16:04:17 <V453000> and are you sure the truck is refit to steel?
16:04:51 <SneakySnake> I accidentally sent an iron ore truck instead of steel truck
16:05:28 <Hiddenfunstuff> wouldnt using trains more efficient anyways? unless its an feeder to a factory in neighbor?
16:07:17 <SneakySnake> I'm just trying out the game, I'll worry about efficiency when I have mastered the basics
16:07:55 <SneakySnake> Can I reorder vehicle orders or do I have to delete the existing orders if I have made an ordering mistake?
16:08:09 <Hiddenfunstuff> you can drag them around
16:08:22 <SneakySnake> That doesn't seem to be working
16:08:32 <Hiddenfunstuff> or you mean change th order to another?
16:08:56 <SneakySnake> Change the order of the orders
16:09:08 <Hiddenfunstuff> you should be able to drag the orders around
16:09:36 <SneakySnake> Is that a cutting edge feature or something? I'm using 1.5.1, and I can't drag orders. Maybe I have to enable it in settings?
16:09:58 <Hiddenfunstuff> no.. its been there for ages and no settings needed
16:10:04 <SneakySnake> wait, now it's working
16:10:58 <SneakySnake> If an order is already highlighted, I can't move it
16:11:25 <SneakySnake> Is that intentional behavior?
16:11:42 <Hiddenfunstuff> Dunno.. But it works
16:12:13 <Hiddenfunstuff> also when you add orders.. it adds above the highlighted one.. to have it add orders in the bottom.. click on the end of orders
16:12:33 <SneakySnake> Yeah, it's easy to forget that
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17:10:42 <SneakySnake> Thanks for the help guys
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18:45:10 <Rubidium> how's Bristol's weather going to be saturday?
18:45:50 <andythenorth> where are you staying?
18:46:41 <andythenorth> Terkhen: played any OTTD recently? o_O
18:46:59 <Rubidium> but only for two nights, after that three nights in quiet Newbury
18:51:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth: not really :P
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19:12:39 <andythenorth> 62 road vehicles 1860-2000
19:13:21 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 2.25806451613
19:13:46 <andythenorth> Iron Horse provides 28 trains for the same time period
19:14:10 <Alberth> rvs are not much refittable I guess
19:14:31 <andythenorth> eGRVTS provides 114 vehicles last time I counted
19:15:15 <Alberth> one every 1/2 hour playing, seems nice enough
19:16:05 <Rubidium> what? no daylength patch? ;)
19:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vehicle count is a terrible metric
19:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "your essay must have 1500 words"
19:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> which is an almost meaningless requirement
19:17:22 <Alberth> if they are all eg livestock trucks, it's a bit overdone :p
19:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use 900 words and said all you ever wanted to say, why pad it with another 600?
19:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you use 2500 words, but it just flows well and feels concise, why remove 1000 words?
19:19:36 <Rubidium> that's why pages is a much better metric
19:19:54 <andythenorth> because writing essays isn’t about saying what you mean, but about learning to write a 1500 word essay
19:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: doesn't really help at all in that sense
19:19:59 <Rubidium> just change the margins, kerning and interline spacing ;)
19:20:12 <Rubidium> and maybe even the font
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19:20:48 * andythenorth will probably just add some more trucks
19:20:55 <andythenorth> even though the buy menu is getting overwhelming
19:21:02 <andythenorth> and if I add early and late generations
19:21:05 <andythenorth> it will be worse
19:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: when i wrote my diploma thesis, the aim was 80 pages, but it really was just a vague aim
19:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: turn on vehicles expiring.
19:21:45 <andythenorth> I hate that feature :P
19:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cheat to a random year, type "resetengines", check the available vehicles at each time
19:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but then, "size of the buy menu list" is a non-goal
19:23:00 <andythenorth> ok so the goal for these sets is ‘no boring choices'
19:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unless you introduce all vehicles at 1860 and not have any generations at all
19:23:26 <andythenorth> so variety + density might be metrics, not length
19:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: choices automatically become "boring" when you compare different generations
19:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the new generation should always win out over the old one
19:24:30 <andythenorth> but also scrolling is boring
19:24:38 <andythenorth> and I can only see 12 vehicles at once on my screen
19:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you need to test with enabled expiring
19:24:42 <andythenorth> and I don’t have touch-scroll
19:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 12 vehicles in each generation is more than plenty
19:25:35 <andythenorth> I have 15 currently
19:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> 7 types of trucks, 3 types of busses, 2 types of tram
19:26:49 <andythenorth> every time I look at this
19:26:58 <andythenorth> I conclude: delete the mining trucks and the logging trucks
19:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. keep those in HEQS
19:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> use trucks you would find on regular roads in a random european town
19:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> (or american, or ...)
19:28:53 <andythenorth> but then HEQS is in the buy menu....
19:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> {piece, bulk, liquid}x{non-articulated, articulated} is 6 types of trucks
19:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> should easily cover all generic usecases
19:29:53 <andythenorth> ‘add HEQS’ makes the problem worse, not better :P
19:30:08 <andythenorth> because HEQS is bloated like a fat whale
19:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> assume the regular player doesn't "add heqs"
19:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> because he doesn't need a mining/logging truck
19:30:31 <andythenorth> eh I’m not designing for other people ;)
19:30:35 <andythenorth> I’m designing for andythenorth
19:30:45 <andythenorth> I have no idea what other people want
19:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> put the logs on the bulk truck
19:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> or add a stake truck
19:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> {piece, bulk, liquid, oversized}x{single, articulated}
19:32:13 <andythenorth> yeah the stake/flat truck is what I’m considering adding
19:32:38 <Eddi|zuHause> where wood counts as "oversized"
19:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> put steel on those as well
19:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: stay focused :p
19:34:40 <andythenorth> hmmm….roadtypes? o_O
19:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> roadtypes are for trolleybusses and simulated subways
19:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and pipes :p
19:36:27 <andythenorth> and off-highway trucks
19:37:38 <andythenorth> maybe that’s how I should organise the buy menu
19:37:41 <andythenorth> on-highway, off-highway
19:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> don't have off-highway stuff
19:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it serves no purpose. and that's what you want to get rid off when being concise is your concern
19:39:18 <andythenorth> It has excessive capacity
19:39:26 <andythenorth> at the cost of speed
19:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if you need capacity, use a train
19:39:59 <andythenorth> the capacity per tile on mining trucks is quite insanely high
19:40:07 <andythenorth> compared to a fully signalled train route
19:40:14 <andythenorth> and ships don’t do hills :P
19:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> use road vehicles when you don't want to rip up half the town for a train station
19:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or when you want to deliver small amounts
19:40:40 <andythenorth> I am 50% convinced on removing the off-highway stuff
19:46:09 <frosch123> hai, you have been busy :)
19:47:28 <planetmaker> not too much, but I like the idea :)
19:48:18 <planetmaker> I mostly wonder how to handle the doxygen config file as it contains also project specific stuff. But it also needs to contain site-specific ones
19:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a job for #include
19:48:49 <frosch123> what would be project specific?
19:49:02 <planetmaker> like name, author etc
19:49:30 <planetmaker> that's even build-specific
19:49:53 <frosch123> name, author, version could be determined automatically
19:50:16 <frosch123> but yes, as eddi says, you can also optionally include files and replace/add to varaibles
19:50:20 <frosch123> like Makefile.in etc
19:50:30 <planetmaker> yes... that's possible
19:50:48 <frosch123> Most of the info you mentioned is actually in info.nut
19:50:59 <frosch123> bananas and musa can parse them
19:52:13 <frosch123> so, we could even detect a library.nut
19:52:29 <frosch123> and use name and version on bundles
19:52:41 <frosch123> so people can access the docs for a specific library version
19:54:02 <planetmaker> hm... using name and version on bundles from libraries...
19:54:04 <frosch123> hmm, though maybe tags are better
19:54:19 <frosch123> people tend to increase version number before release
19:54:30 <frosch123> not before the first change for the next version
19:55:03 <planetmaker> well, there are release builds and push builds, like for every project. So the releases will be probably the more relevant ones
19:56:50 <planetmaker> right. So I'll try to auto-create part of Doxyfile
19:59:26 <planetmaker> I have to say the results on busy bee with doxygen were not very promising, though :P
19:59:59 <planetmaker> (currently there only 2 script projects have an associated build job... both contain the word 'bee')
20:00:20 <frosch123> we need more forks :p
20:03:58 <frosch123> i would not be surprised if the bees have epydoc style comments :p
20:08:52 <Alberth> planetmaker: the comments are not proper doxygen
20:09:24 <frosch123> it lacks some slashes
20:09:31 <Alberth> you need a special introductory comment, like ///! or or
20:11:23 <planetmaker> :) yeah. I only noticed as I need a test project
20:13:46 <Alberth> doxygen doesn't work nicely due to lack of types
20:14:00 <Alberth> not sure how doxygen handles python code
20:17:58 <planetmaker> not much better, I think, as python wasn't taught to doxygen yet. At least from what I understood from doxygen docs
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20:26:01 * andythenorth plans Esoteric Transport GRF
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20:40:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: you can only distribute that as limited edition
20:43:15 <andythenorth> pipelines, mining trucks
20:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "esoteric" as in niche (like segway, or a ferry in Rendsburg that doesn't touch the water) or out-of-general-human-understanding (like a flying saucer)
20:43:20 <andythenorth> heavy lift aircraft
20:43:54 <andythenorth> the pipelines grf is great
20:44:03 <andythenorth> except it has too many pumps
20:44:08 <andythenorth> and signalling is very boring
20:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the pipeline grf falls for me into the same category as the signals on bridges patch... an interesting idea implemented in the absolutely worst kind of way
20:45:18 <andythenorth> I use it in every game now
20:46:29 <andythenorth> maybe it’s time for NewTransportTypes
21:03:20 <andythenorth> groups in the buy menu?
21:04:09 * andythenorth considers implementing mining trucks and such as trams
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21:05:40 <andythenorth> probably a railytype
21:06:00 <planetmaker> doxygen output, where should it go on bundles server?
21:06:17 <planetmaker> ./docs relative to the binary / script?
21:06:40 <planetmaker> or docs/doxygen/ so that one can ship also additionally custom docs without them drowning in doxygen output?
21:06:58 <planetmaker> or something else entirely?
21:07:02 <andythenorth> do they document the project, or the project’s source code?
21:07:13 <planetmaker> they document the source
21:07:24 <andythenorth> in their own path somewhere
21:07:31 <planetmaker> docs/doxygen then?
21:08:53 <andythenorth> so trains have “4-4-0 Standard (Steam)” or whatever
21:09:07 <andythenorth> should trucks have “Witch Hill Mining Truck (Off-highway)” ?
21:09:21 <andythenorth> or “Jinglepot General Cargo Truck (On-highway)"
21:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather put that into the description
21:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but have i mentioned that i don't like the on/off highway distinction?
21:13:54 <andythenorth> you have me 50% convinced
21:14:00 <andythenorth> I actually think we should do roadtypes
21:14:43 <andythenorth> based on playing quite a lot recently
21:14:56 <andythenorth> I like building lots of different transport types
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21:15:14 <andythenorth> managing capacity and contention on a specific type (especially trains) is quite boring
21:15:29 <andythenorth> but threading lots of types through a congested area is fun
21:15:46 <andythenorth> I think the game is fundamentally about building routes
21:15:51 <andythenorth> rather than choosing vehicles
21:15:57 <andythenorth> and 10 years of newgrf are doing it wrong
21:16:14 <andythenorth> pipe.grf might be relatively terrible, but it’s the most interesting use of railtypes so far
21:17:14 <andythenorth> now I build two routes, instead of figuring out how to jam more oil trains onto the main spine
21:18:04 <andythenorth> endlessly compatible roadtypes would be very boring
21:18:17 <andythenorth> mutually exclusive roadtypes is quite interesting
21:26:07 <frosch123> [21:07] <andythenorth> do they document the project, or the project’s source code? <- there is no difference for libraries
21:26:25 <frosch123> the source is the project
21:26:26 <andythenorth> yeah my answer was specific to grf
21:26:32 <andythenorth> other projects, ymmv
21:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i never figured out what ymmv is supposed to mean
21:37:49 <planetmaker> your milage may vary
21:39:42 <Alberth> "results may be different if you try it" :)
21:40:09 <andythenorth> why Goods is not Piece Goods class
21:41:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hysterical raisins
21:42:11 <planetmaker> frosch123, I'm actually not sure how to automatically get version and name from the scripts
21:42:14 <andythenorth> if I changed it in FIRS, the wiki would be wrong
21:42:18 <andythenorth> and I can’t edit wiki
21:42:32 <planetmaker> if they all put the information in main.nut or info.nut ... yes. But already busy-bee does not and generates that info
21:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> wood is even weirder wrt cargo class
21:42:36 <planetmaker> so... what to assume?
21:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: run the steps that put that info there first? makefiles should be able to do that, right?
21:45:32 <planetmaker> but then they could generate the Doxygen config file on the same step, too. Instead of me parsing different output
21:46:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: clearly bundles of wood
21:46:09 <andythenorth> or individual logs :P
21:46:45 <andythenorth> I do miss the days when cargo class was a thing that was talked about :P
21:47:21 <Alberth> planetmaker: not sure bees need any doxygenerated docs :) but sure, why not add it to the makefile
21:47:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: will you ever use Road Hog? I am considering a parameter to disable off-highway vehicles
21:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but then that is two tasks that sort of do the same thing in two different ways, which may or may not be weird
21:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how should i know?
21:47:54 <andythenorth> similar to Iron Horse ‘disabling’ the extra types if the railtype isn’t provided
21:48:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: predict the future
21:48:10 <andythenorth> it’s impossible, yet we try all the time
21:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> by current extrapolation, i won't play the game at all in quite a while
21:48:52 <Alberth> andythenorth: assume he will at some point, and you're always safe
21:48:52 <andythenorth> the game is quite fun
21:49:05 <planetmaker> Alberth, it's not so much about busy bee in particular. It's for me a convenient example :) And it's the only script project really which gets build/published, thus has a Makefile at all
21:49:13 <andythenorth> we should write another GS
21:49:23 * andythenorth commited about twice to busy bee :P
21:49:42 <Alberth> wanna do a Dutch translation? :p
21:50:05 <andythenorth> didn’t we write a web translator?
21:50:29 <Alberth> yeah, but it has no Dutch Bee translators
21:50:37 <andythenorth> I thought it did it by magic
21:51:08 <Alberth> wll, it works for some languages :)
21:51:15 * andythenorth ponders a GS suitable for all the ‘brit’ rosters he’s making
21:51:40 <andythenorth> how about “invent 50% of engineering inventions, and have the world’s biggest empire, then somehow squander that”
21:52:13 <Alberth> what happened to the 'winning the west' GS?
21:52:27 <andythenorth> I haven’t made any grfs for it yet :(
21:52:59 <Alberth> Britain doesn't have a West?
21:53:06 <andythenorth> Rubidium soon too :P
21:53:17 <andythenorth> we didn’t have to kill all the buffalo though
21:53:27 <andythenorth> can we measure average vehicle speed in a GS?
21:53:39 <Alberth> good, OpenTTD is a family-friendly game
21:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: over all available or all existing vehicles?
21:54:20 <andythenorth> UK has some of the fastest average PAX train speeds, fast freight trains, and allegedly our trucks work some of the most punishing schedules
21:54:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dunno
21:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "all available" may have the problem of obsolete vehicles dragging down the value too much, and "all existing" may make more sense per cargo, as wagon speed limits may be different
21:56:11 <andythenorth> per cargo is quite nice
21:56:19 <frosch123> planetmaker: take AyStar as example
21:56:29 <frosch123> it has doxygen comments
21:56:38 <frosch123> and it has a simple library.nut
21:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> all existing may produce a better reaction to the player's actual playstyle
21:57:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: actually, a lot of the ai libraries seem to use doxygen comments
21:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> a player with mixed local and express trains will have a lower value than one that has all maglev
21:57:27 <frosch123> and most of them do not do the version magic that bee does
21:57:52 <frosch123> Pathfinder.Road and Pathfinder.Rail also use doxygen
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21:58:58 <andythenorth> dunno how much GS knows about the available vehicles
21:59:15 <frosch123> superlib not so much
21:59:22 <frosch123> so mostly the tb/yexo libs use doxygen
21:59:55 <frosch123> cEngineLib might also work
22:02:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: i think all the info.nut magic only exists for ais and game scripts, but not for the libraries
22:02:40 <frosch123> libraries cannot increase the version on every commit
22:02:56 <frosch123> but only on releases, so it makes little sense to add a Makefile to them
22:03:04 <andythenorth> average speed goal probably fails on waiting in stations and such
22:04:55 * andythenorth wonders about setting point-to-point delivery time goals
22:05:06 <andythenorth> would need to calculate distance
22:05:11 <planetmaker> however aystar has a Makefile :)
22:05:24 <andythenorth> and specify the transport type
22:05:36 <andythenorth> and know the speed of the fastest appropriate vehicle
22:06:40 <planetmaker> frosch123, does every library necessarily have a library.nut?
22:07:28 <planetmaker> and every script an info.nut?
22:07:48 <frosch123> but i see no point in doxygen for scripts
22:08:08 <planetmaker> you mean only for libraries?
22:09:13 <frosch123> libraries have a fixed api for a fixed version
22:09:23 <frosch123> so it makes sense to provide documentation for specific versions
22:09:38 <frosch123> so people can look it up, just like the openttd api
22:10:45 <planetmaker> yes, it's more useful for libraries, sure :)
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22:14:50 <frosch123> and the libraries using magic, can provide a makefile, if they want :p
22:24:32 <frosch123> likely also works for most of them :)
22:24:48 <frosch123> i think zuu wrote that other code
22:25:00 <frosch123> no idea what he had in mind
22:26:07 <planetmaker> Well, that doesn't check for version. A library or script can do:
22:26:43 <planetmaker> function GetVersion() { return VERSION; }
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22:26:54 <planetmaker> or function GetVersion() { return 6; }
22:27:00 <frosch123> yeah, but those can also provider custom Makefiles then :p
22:27:02 <planetmaker> the latter is nice. The earlier... not so for my case
22:27:22 <planetmaker> so I'll just submit it as I just pasted
22:31:57 <frosch123> from the libraries in my content_download folder
22:32:22 <frosch123> there are only 3 or 4 libraries which use version magic
22:32:36 <frosch123> 3 or 4 depending on whether you count superlib for ai and gs separately
22:33:33 <frosch123> i think the bigger task is to make libraries use correct doxygen syntax :)
22:34:07 <planetmaker> we out-source that to the guy who wrote that script :P
22:41:06 <frosch123> is there some example output for some project on bundles?
22:43:23 <planetmaker> I haven't built anything on the server yet. I had it run locally on BB to see what it gives; but not yet on a library
22:44:09 <planetmaker> but that's something for tomorrow to test, setting up the projects, I think
23:03:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: i've added wormnest as manager to the project :p
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23:18:40 <planetmaker> good night from here, too :)
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